VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Bill Temple]

The thing that baffles me while I've been watching from the sidelines these past several days of complaints that this handjob is a rug pull, is that this is the prologue. This is where the setting, the tone, the expectations, some of the major antagonists of the story are established. Discovering reader/player incompatibility with the plot should happen at exactly this point. I can't tell you how many books I've put back on the shelf after chapter 1, but it's up to two this month already.
And the gripes about the terms of the deal with Chuck not explicitly including that Ed may need to get his dick wet in the line of his duties at a sex club, seem not naive, but rather deliberately obtuse.

More full details of the agreement are disclosed off-screen. We should infer from Edwin's thought "If I want to get paid, I have to do this." that the terms of the agreement did include some terms vague (or maybe specific) enough that led him (a 21 year old undergraduate student in an illegal and powerful sex club) to believe he should go with this. If we were to see a scene where Ian or Chuck explain that sometime they "have" to perform sexually for the job, would that change anything? I don't think it would.
I get not liking the scene, and it maybe making the game unplayable for some. I mean, I don't actually get it, but I understand intellectually that some people get triggered seeing hot, evil old bitches drugging and forcibly masturbating people. I'm not a fan of being sexually assaulted IRL either, but the guy that happened to on screen isn't me. Really it's the whining that readers were misled or that the writing is bad or inconsistent that seems more disingenuous than ignorant.
Arguments about player agency are as pointless as always. Games and VNs are limited in scope. The story is on rails, whether you like it or not. To give a player the choice to fully refuse the sadistic, narcissistic primary antagonist of the story at their first real interaction would significantly declaw her. We're learning that she's going to do crazy shit, push boundaries, make everyone under her control squirm with discomfort (or worse). If we get an alpha Chad option in this drugging/handjob scene in the prologue then much of the conflict of the rest of the game is going to be undercut and Edwin is going to be a really inconsistent character, or a totally different one than the author intends to write. The story changes and is shortened significantly if Edwin can at any moment just nope out of the tasks he's assigned.

The story is about the less privileged being used by the powerful, and how they'll struggle to get through that situation. It's not a wish fulfillment fantasy about how we become the greatest, most dominant, most beloved, and most respected slave master in the history of underground sex clubs of the rich and famous. If that's what you want, Red Sakura Mansion 2 just updated today.

 

[sunaboz]

(...)
That conversation with Kathleen where she suddenly demands that we whip out our dick because we had previously agreed to it was terrible writing because we never once agreed to anything of the sort. (...)

It's not terrible, you just don't like it because devs haven't implemented response you would like them to implement. It's a porn game first and foremost so not having sex when we can goes against the very essence of such games.

One of the things I hate the most about porn VNs is when we have binary choices of the "have sex"/"don't have sex" variety. Here it almost never happens (we can refuse sex on occasions but it's very rarely a binary choice and even when it is, like during Rosalind's "interview", it's never simple and there are consequences to our choices).

Anyway, here devs have clear vision where they want the story to go. Which is the best possible course of action IMO since devs can NEVER cater to everyone's tastes so they're making a game that makes their dicks hard, simple as that.

(...)
It's not like he lost a bursary that was helping him pay for schooling and had his rent suddenly go up and is now desperate for money. His only complaint was that he didn't like tutoring and wouldn't do it if the pay wasn't so good. (...)

At the very beginning (when we're choosing background and we take money trait) we learn that:
"However for the time being, you're broke-as-shit like most students. You live off campus subsisting on instant foods, your mother's cooking and the occasional takeout".

So not having to take a student loan and live like a rat while at the same time being around sexy ladies and having sex with them seems like a dream come true (especially since Edwin has a huge dick and balls but for porn-logic reasons not very much experience despite having very high libido).

(...)
Imagine you get an office job working as an accountant for a mining company, and one day the boss comes in and tells you that you need to go down into the mines and dig coal with the other workers. You refuse because it's not your job, and he says the it is because you tacitly agreed to do it because you didn't object on moral grounds to all the other people work do the dirty work down there so you must therefore be also willing to do it too. You'd say that was bullshit too, because it is. (...)

That's not good analogy at all because you're at the interview for the job stage, you're not an accountant yet. Up to the Kathleen telling Edwin to whip his dick out Edwin had only a vague sense of what to expect. During his second encounter with Kathleen she told him:
"I have something fun planned later this week that will give you a taste of what to expect."
which she did.

Besides, Kat telling Edwin about his mother doing porn, her giving him USB drive with filth (where Darius had sex during the exhibition and I could start and finish with just that), her being dressed like she was, flirting with Edwin openly and encouraging him even to look were pretty good indicators of what he might expect when Kathleen said that "WE will interview whores". How the fuck do you interview whores? I would imagine using the tool every man has at his disposal. I don't have to be Sherlock to know that, or do I?

tl;dr
Edwin saw exhibition footage so he knew exactly what might be expected of him when he agreed to work there so we either go along with it or Alt+F4.

 

[Simpgor]

I'm not a fan of being sexually assaulted IRL either, but the guy that happened to on screen isn't me.

For some (most) they do see themselves as the person on screen which explains why "them" getting "their" dick "wet" is more important than pathetic things like story or character setup. It also explains why a something that is forced by the narrative is only bad when it happens to "them" "personally". As well as why they feel the need for (any) MC to be "ULTRA MEGA GIGA CHAD" because clearly they (user with hundreds or thousands of posts on porn piracy form) are such chads. For example Why aren't they complaining about Rose not getting a choice if Edwin wants to take advantage?

The story is about the less privileged being used by the powerful, and how they'll struggle to get through that situation. It's not a wish fulfillment fantasy about how we become the greatest, most dominant, most beloved, and most respected slave master in the history of underground sex clubs of the rich and famous.

Clearly it's about becoming the greatest, most compassionate, most beloved, and most respected leader of a "workers first" sex club that despite catering to rich "abusive" men mostly somehow stops any of that, all while you have a harem featuring: goth girl who also owns the compassionate sex club, former wife of steel magnate, a silver medal Olympian, a rising model/actress, a gaggle of house girls who obviously love you, a borderline robotic (but really she's a good girl!) genius doctor, your male childhood friend who loves you more than the rest (also owns the club and is ricch), and a single mom i guess

 

[Bill Temple]

For some (most) they do see themselves as the person on screen which explains why "them" getting "their" dick "wet" is more important than pathetic things like story or character setup. It also explains why a something that is forced by the narrative is only bad when it happens to "them" "personally". As well as why they feel the need for (any) MC to be "ULTRA MEGA GIGA CHAD" because clearly they (user with hundreds or thousands of posts on porn piracy form) are such chads. For example Why aren't they complaining about Rose not getting a choice if Edwin wants to take advantage?



Clearly it's about becoming the greatest, most compassionate, most beloved, and most respected leader of a "workers first" sex club that despite catering to rich "abusive" men mostly somehow stops any of that, all while you have a harem featuring: goth girl who also owns the compassionate sex club, former wife of steel magnate, a silver medal Olympian, a rising model/actress, a gaggle of house girls who obviously love you, a borderline robotic (but really she's a good girl!) genius doctor, your male childhood friend who loves you more than the rest (also owns the club and is ricch), and a single mom i guess

Dang! Even Turret caught a stray in that take. Dude was over there putting his Sophia figurine back in the display case, and bam!

 

[Simpgor]

Dang! Even Turret caught a stray in that take. Dude was over there putting his Sophia figurine back in the display case, and bam!

I'm swinging at everyone! Nobody is safe!

Spoiler: Rose lol

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[notstaged]

Clearly it's about becoming the greatest, most compassionate, most beloved, and most respected leader of a "workers first" sex club that despite catering to rich "abusive" men mostly somehow stops any of that

Just like any bleeding heart women-in-peril slash sex worker sympathizer and consent champion, E-guy is going to make some changes around the place. Like introducing extracurricular activities to educate the hoetariat. Making the house girls watch Night Shift with Henry Winkler. Mandatory Dario Argento nights. Rose, you coupon collecting cow, you're going to watch The Killing of a Chinese Bookie and you better like it.

 

[labmouseblues]

Mandatory Dario Argento nights.

Beats mandatory Claudio Fragasso nights.

 

[ename144]

Imagine you get an office job working as an accountant for a mining company, and one day the boss comes in and tells you that you need to go down into the mines and dig coal with the other workers. You refuse because it's not your job, and he says the it is because you tacitly agreed to do it because you didn't object on moral grounds to all the other people work do the dirty work down there so you must therefore be also willing to do it too. You'd say that was bullshit too, because it is.

They tell you what your job description is, then after you reluctantly agree to it, they change the terms of the agreement and then the main character just pretends that they're not lying when they were told that they agreed to do it in a previous conversation that never happened.

Well, one notable difference in your scenario is that I wouldn't be working at a strictly illegal operation where I would have no means of enforcing the letter of my contract beyond my own two fists. Technically, arguing with the mob is an option, but it's a very different prospect from arguing with a generic asshole boss. I mean, I'm normally a fan of unions, but Felicia and Rosalind are absolutely right that it would be a disastrous idea for the Carnations to try starting one.

There's also the issue that the contract in PC's case is entirely verbal (unless we got more details off screen, of course). That works for and against us, but it mostly reinforces the existing power dynamic: if the two parties can't come to an agreement, who would be hurt more by walking away? As is all too often the case, the answer here is clearly the employee. The Club would have to find another gopher on the eve of the Exhibition, which isn't ideal but they have the means to do it. The MC meanwhile is back to hoping a combination of hard work and massive debt will get him through medical school, which is a much bigger gamble - to say nothing of the aforementioned risk of walking away from gangsters after agreeing to work with them.

Lastly, I still disagree that what's being asked of the MC by Kathleen is clearly beyond the scope of his job. The MC knows he's going to be working closely with whores; what the hell does he think that will involve? The Club doesn't need an employee to have sex with them on his own terms - they already have paying customers for that! What they need him for is either to keep the girls in line, or to be part of their stage shows. This clearly falls within the purview of the latter.

So contrary to your analogy, the scenario in the game is more like a young geologist being hired by a very sketchy mining corporation to "closely supervise mining operations." When the boss (and his burly henchmen) give the MC a broken hardhat and point to the elevator, yeah, he can definitely flat out refuse, but in that case he's getting tossed out on his ass (if he's lucky). He might be able to negotiate on some details, but he *is* going to work in the mines. There is absolutely zero chance he'll get to stay in the office playing solitaire and drawing maps.

Why? What's hypocritical about it? Has he ever said that the other girls there shouldn't be allowed to refuse to do things that they never agreed to do? There's tons of jobs out there that people would never want to do in a million years, but are fine with other people doing them. If you hate the sea and can't stand the smell of fish, is it hypocritical for you to think that other people should be allowed to become fisherman if they want to?

What's hypocritical is that he's fine with the girls being ordered to strip and get fucked for money, but the instant HIS junk is mentioned he starts whining. If you're going to sell out, at least own it.

Seriously, why you guys acting like a hag handy isn't a perk of the job?

Oh, it clearly is. It's just that perks of this job are all barbed.

You seem mostly upset that Edwin decides this on his own without asking you, the player, for input. Your expectations of how "intelligent med student" should act simply evidently don't match exactly how Edwin acts, given his background, motivation and personality. But it's not really a reason to call his decision lame just because he behaves in a way you did not expect.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, part of the reason they dislike the presentation may be that we DO get a chance to refuse Kat's order, but Edwin gives an extremely lame defense: "I don't... want to."

While I agree that Kat's counterargument is decisive (namely: do your damn job!), the MC could have made a more emphatic case before backing down. That, or just removed the choice and had the MC explain his rationale internally.

IKR. People play porn games and then are like "omg, they demand me to have sex".

In all seriousness, I really hate it when sexual scenes are forced on the player. There is, however, a big difference between forcing a scene on the player and forcing it on the main character. I can accept the latter as part of the fundamental premise of the game - at least as long as the game is consistent about it. That goes double in the early stages of a game, where we're learning how things work. But when an MC who'd previously deferred to us suddenly decides to bone some girl for no clear reason, it can definitely rankle.

That doesn't apply in this particular case since it's the prologue and there's a very clear reason why the MC is doing this, but I can understand why it would still rankle for players who can't accept that reasoning. So I do sympathize, but IMHO that just indicates the game fundamentally isn't for them. No shame in that.

Besides, Kat telling Edwin about his mother doing porn, her giving him USB drive with filth (where Darius had sex during the exhibition and I could start and finish with just that), her being dressed like she was, flirting with Edwin openly and encouraging him even to look were pretty good indicators of what he might expect when Kathleen said that "WE will interview whores". How the fuck do you interview whores? I would imagine using the tool every man has at his disposal. I don't have to be Sherlock to know that, or do I?

To be fair, the MC has no way to recognize Darius in that clip. He would recognize Killian, though, and the implications of that are rather obvious. So your point is still valid. The MC knew full well this wasn't some accounting job by the time Kathleen ordered him to unzip.

 

[Garen]

I'm swinging at everyone! Nobody is safe!

Spoiler: Rose lol

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If Rosalind has million fans, then I'm one of them.
If Rosalind has one fan, then I'm THAT ONE.
If Rosalind has no fans, that means I'm dead.

 

[sunaboz]

(...)
To be fair, the MC has no way to recognize Darius in that clip. (...)

I didn't mention such obvious things. Edwin surely had recognised Ian who was dressed the same as Darius (and had the same mask) so 2+2=4. Plus, when he first met Kathleen she mentioned that besides Ian there are only old men to look at so I didn't think the need to explain all this.

Edit:
Not to mention that during that video Ian must have participated as well but that wasn't shown for obvious reasons.

 

[Phase_01]

If Rosalind has million fans, then I'm one of them.
If Rosalind has one fan, then I'm THAT ONE.
If Rosalind has no fans, that means I'm dead.

View attachment 4140512

It's amazing that his mom is the more sultry looking one in this picture, especially that dress.

Can't wait to see more past porn tapes of her
Would be interesting if the game actually made a route where Killian's idea of turning Rose into their personal porn star actually came to fruition, and Edwin is in charge of making someone else live out the same life as his mom's.

 

[BowWow1815]

View attachment 4140512

I hope Kilian fucks the MC's mom in a really degrading and humiliating way.

 

[Fapparition]

I hope Kilian fucks the MC's mom in a really degrading and humiliating way.

Okay, time to take your meds

 

[Ungawa]

Can't do this always, but I chose to lose a few brain cells and do this now...

Ch. 4 Up 5 Preview 1

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Felizard

FrankenVero

Vamp Kath

Ghost Rosa

Bath Water Babe

Merry Christmas

Now before anyone gets mad, I looked EVERYWHERE for number 2. If Perv didn't post it, it does not exist. But that's everything I could find for previews as of now. I'll probably update in a few weeks to keep it maintained.

 

[Bill Temple]

Can't do this always, but I chose to lose a few brain cells and do this now...

Ch. 4 Up 5 Preview 1

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Now before anyone gets mad, I looked EVERYWHERE for number 2. If Perv didn't post it, it does not exist. But that's everything I could find for previews as of now. I'll probably update in a few weeks to keep it maintained.

Spoiler: For the completionists

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[Idontplay]

Can't do this always, but I chose to lose a few brain cells and do this now...

Ch. 4 Up 5 Preview 1

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Now before anyone gets mad, I looked EVERYWHERE for number 2. If Perv didn't post it, it does not exist. But that's everything I could find for previews as of now. I'll probably update in a few weeks to keep it maintained.

Actually the preview 2 exists but it is too hot to be posted, so it was decided to keep it hidden for our own sake.

 

[Ass prefer]

He's already a whore by that point

If everyone is a whore, then no one is a whore?
"If everyone is special, then no one is special? "

 

[ffive]

If everyone is a whore, then no one is a whore?
"If everyone is special, then no one is special? "

Well, no.

Some are pimps.

 

[pinuz1]

Can't do this always, but I chose to lose a few brain cells and do this now...

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Now before anyone gets mad, I looked EVERYWHERE for number 2. If Perv didn't post it, it does not exist. But that's everything I could find for previews as of now. I'll probably update in a few weeks to keep it maintained.

Crossing my fingers hoping that the fact that Andrea got a preview means she'll get a scene this update

No signs of Sophia this update tho .

 

[Takkatakka]

Can't do this always, but I chose to lose a few brain cells and do this now...

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Ch 4 Up 5 Preview 11

Now before anyone gets mad, I looked EVERYWHERE for number 2. If Perv didn't post it, it does not exist. But that's everything I could find for previews as of now. I'll probably update in a few weeks to keep it maintained.

I actually missed some of those initially...