VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Turret]

Yikes, just seen this post, I'm also not really sure this is my stuff, but I still find some pleasure discovering a great story (because the writing is so far excellent).

I'm ok with the fact that the situation can be really grim, but without spoiling too much, is MC at least trying to "fix things" ? Or he's also a lost soul in a sea of bad guys?
In this case maybe this game is not for me as well. Stuff can be dark, but in order to maintain my suspension of disbelief I don't really want to play as a bad guy, I don't find joy in it [no kink shaming tho, you do you].

Can you guys tell me if I should stop playing or there's hope in this world? (or at least MC is not paved with bad intentions)

Just read my earlier post (nr.18,314) for a rough overview. You can play our hero as a nice guy, trying to help everyone, you can be a nice guy, who helps where his interests lie and let some things be as they are or you can play as n a..., following Kath´s footsteps as her junior sadist.

That argument may hold weight if a member of the club didn't use his power to actively sabotage her efforts in order to fuck her.

The situation is more messy than you say. Samson is crushing hard on Veronika, but since she is far more lesbian leaning than hetero, he has few chances. To get her, he cooked up his plan and sabotaged her gym. Which actually was not so difficult, since it already was in dangerous waters before Samson met Veronika.
Veronika could also just walk away, start anew and life her dream! Her situation is not that bad, but Samson recognized her mule-like stubborness and used it against her.

 

[ffive]

Which is why I brought up the threats of losing out on a chance to win when Carnations were getting skittish. Kathleen is well aware of every carnations situation and used it against them when needed to keep them in line.

That’s intimidation, a threat, force, and coercion.

But that is after Veronica has made her decision to participate in the contest, a decision she was not coerced into. These are two different things, and people are talking about that initial decision of hers.

And honestly, the worst threat Kat has is "well you won't win" which does not prevent Veronica from pursuing those other solutions, should she actually quit. At this point she's largely falling for the sunk cost fallacy.

 

[maroder]

Which is why I brought up the threats of losing out on a chance to win when Carnations were getting skittish. Kathleen is well aware of every carnations situation and used it against them when needed to keep them in line.

That’s intimidation, a threat, force, and coercion.

veronika can walk out any time and no one will be able to stop her. my boss saying to me that if i don't show up at work im fired is not abnormal.

Which actually was not so difficult, since it already was in dangerous waters before Samson met Veronika.

if i rember right samson forced veronicas master to sell her gym without giving her information that it was already failing

 

[maroder]

No. Samson pushed her to join the club using her own personality flaws against her. That’s not willingly joining when a circumstances push you into a certain direction when the lively hood is on the line. Yes, Veronica was completely unaware. Samson knew the consequences.

Legal Definitioncoercion. noun. co·er·cion kō-ˈər-zhən, -shən. : the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal (as discharge from employment) or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will.

yes and there is no fear of violence or reprisal so by your definition its cant be considered that. telling veronicaa that if she wont get money she will lose business is NOT violence or reprisal that's just how capitalism works.

if i dont pay my bills i will be evicted from house. landlord saying that to me is not coercion.
if i dont pay bills on my car and if im in debt it may get reposed its still not coercion.

 

[TD1900]

I maybe misrembering or interperiting, Samson sabataged Veronica's business with bad contracts/business model preying on her naivite on buisness to coerce into a situation where the carnation club was a last resort. Each time she thought about dropping out she is reminded she'll lose the chance at money and the implications of that with her personal life. Thats forcing someone to do something against thier own will, aka coecersion. Nothing about that is "willingly."

That does muddy the water, doesn't it? And, Veronica aside, using a charity to recruit a desperate Rosalind is in the same ball park. No matter how you cut it, it's a skeevy, morally bankrupt, illegal affair.

Honestly, I may have overextended with my thoughts and fallen on my face here. I actually bank on the scenario not being so clear cut, so declaring where I personally draw the line with character accountability was reactionary and argumentative. Especially when the heart of the comment was more or less "women in difficult situations ain't sexy." A lukewarm take, but yet here I am now organizing my thoughts with the predominant argument inching toward "...does anyone consent to be born?!" nonsense.

I'll take that as a sign that I should bow out and leave the hard part of making sense of my jerk off material to those more qualified.

 

[maroder]

now for real question did we get any content with veronica in last 2 updates i have not played them yet and thinking if i should wait some more

 

[ffive]

No. Samson pushed her to join the club using her own personality flaws against her. That’s not willingly joining when a circumstances push you into a certain direction when the lively hood is on the line. Yes, Veronica was completely unaware. Samson knew the consequences.

Legal Definitioncoercion. noun. co·er·cion kō-ˈər-zhən, -shən. : the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal (as discharge from employment) or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will.

Again, "circumstances have pushed her" is not the same as a person using actual active threats, implied violence etc in order to force someone to make certain decision. In the very legal sense that you quote Samson has not coerced Veronica into anything. He created a situation where participation in the contest has became appealing option for Veronica but it was just that, an option. She's had other ways to resolve her issue, and ironically those other options didn't involve participating in a stupid and degrading sex game.

 

[bo77om]

sorry guys, kinda dropped out from the discussion from last week - are we still in Felicia Wars phase?

 

[maroder]

sorry guys, kinda dropped out from the discussion from last week - are we still in Felicia Wars phase?

no we moved on to veronica wars phase and it may be dying down so who knows what will come next

 

[dolfe67]

It would never moved on rosalind wars because she never did anything wrong, and certainly not scamming old people

 

[ffive]

no we moved on to veronica wars phase and it may be dying down so who knows what will come next

Technically only Rose is left.

 

[Hungover00]

yes and there is no fear of violence or reprisal so by your definition its cant be considered that. telling veronicaa that if she wont get money she will lose business is NOT violence or reprisal that's just how capitalism works.

if i dont pay my bills i will be evicted from house. landlord saying that to me is not coercion.
if i dont pay bills on my car and if im in debt it may get reposed its still not coercion.

Oh sweetie, that is coercion, but a type they made legal because it benefits the powers that be.

 

[GokutheG]

You can coerce someone to do something with something less drastic than pointing a gun to their head. It's the implications of destroying someone's life that can get them to do what you want. This goes double if you've manipulated things behind the scenes to drive them to that desperate point.

 

[Turret]

Technically only Rose is left.

That we could change...

 

[maroder]

Oh sweetie, that is coercion, but a type they made legal because it benefits the powers that be.

i don't totally disagree with you. but still veronica had choices and she made her choice. personally i would have walked away and most likly would have found way to live decent life and there is nothing samason could have done about it. so if its coercion its not very effective one.

 

[ffive]

You can coerce someone to do something with something less drastic than pointing a gun to their head. It's the implications of destroying someone's life that can get them to do what you want. This goes double if you've manipulated things behind the scenes to drive them to that desperate point.

This only really applies if the person in question has no other options. But to either do what you demand or face negative consequences.

If i offer you to give you a lift to your workplace on condition you sit in my car all naked and masturbate while i drive, but you can also get to work perfectly fine using your own car or public transport, did i coerce you into degrading sexual behavior if you agree with my offer instead of picking other of the options you had?

"Oh, but you knew i'm exhibitionist so it was obvious i'd pick this option!"
Well then, that's on you and indulging in your own kink, then.

 

[GokutheG]

This only really applies if the person in question has no other options. But to either do what you demand or face negative consequences.

If i offer you to give you a lift to your workplace on condition you sit in my car all naked and masturbate while i drive, but you can also get to work perfectly fine using your own car or public transport, did i coerce you into degrading sexual behavior if you agree with my offer instead of picking other of the options you had?

Lucy and Felicia have the resources to deny the ride. Rose and V are in a worse position that's why the club is their only hope(ride).

 

[maroder]

This only really applies if the person in question has no other options. But to either do what you demand or face negative consequences.

If i offer you to give you a lift to your workplace on condition you sit in my car all naked and masturbate while i drive, but you can also get to work perfectly fine using your own car or public transport, did i coerce you into degrading sexual behavior if you agree with my offer instead of picking other of the options you had?

"Oh, but you knew i was exhibitionist so it was obvious i'd pick this option!"
Well then, that's on you and indulging in your own kink, then.

technically if we want these to be more in line with game. you yesterday also blew up hes car tiers so he cant use it to get to destination and also made deal with hes boss to fire him if hes late

 

[ffive]

Lucy and Felicia have the resources to deny the ride. Rose and V are in a worse position that's why the club is their only hope(ride).

Rose is the one who is between the rock and hard place with no good alternatives. I'm not questioning that.

But Veronica very much has alternative solutions, and the club isn't her only hope, like already mentioned in this discussion a few times by now. That's the whole reason we even have the discussion in the first place. No one would question it if the club was her only option.

 

[ffive]

technically if we want these to be more in line with game. you yesterday also blew up hes car tiers so he cant use it to get to destination and also made deal with hes boss to fire him if hes late

To some extent, but they still can use public transport as alternative way to get to the destination. (or call a taxi, or whatever) It may not be as comfortable as a private car, but it's perfectly viable and good enough for thousands of other people in the same situation. The offer i've made them isn't their only option, that's the whole point.