VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Idontplay]

An already played game would be the best.

 

[Beduin123]

But it's rather pointless to rehash it (especially seeing how that discussion didn't affect your stance and preconceptions one bit) and anyone genuinely interested can do a search and check it out for themselves.

My only point this time was that it is not only silly me who finds this plan highly unrealistic even with all the arguments that "by becoming a Member she will gain important social connections and influence". The mere fact that this topic pops up every now and then in this thread proves how fragile is her plan. I just wanted to support Wilhelms , that's it.

The Devs understand all that perfectly and said so many times in the game and here. The only problem I see is the highly split Felicia's personality: on one hand, she is smart and thoroughly calculating woman who builds her success step by step, on the other hand she is frustrated housewife becoming a suicidal gambler ready to lose everything out of her boredom. It's like two different characters in one - bordering on a mental disease.

May be that's the idea, we'll see.

 

[GIL3D]

My only point this time was that it is not only silly me who finds this plan highly unrealistic even with all the arguments that "by becoming a Member she will gain important social connections and influence". The mere fact that this topic pops up every now and then in this thread proves how fragile is her plan. I just wanted to support Wilhelms , that's it.

The Devs understand all that perfectly and said so many times in the game and here. The only problem I see is the highly split Felicia's personality: on one hand, she is smart and thoroughly calculating woman who builds her success step by step, on the other hand she is frustrated housewife becoming a suicidal gambler ready to lose everything out of her boredom. It's like two different characters in one - bordering on a mental disease.

May be that's the idea, we'll see.

Contradictions are what makes us human. If you think personalities should be one tone, you'd only be able to write flat characters that feel inauthentic.

If you can't find strong contradictions within yourself, you simply have low self-awareness.

 

[Beduin123]

If you can't find strong contradictions within yourself, you simply have low self-awareness.

My period of high self-awareness has ended long time ago when I came of the age But that's OK, let's leave it.

 

[GIL3D]

My period of high self-awareness has ended long time ago when I came of the age But that's OK, let's leave it.

You're confusing self-awareness with self-consciousness, but that's OK, let's leave it.

 

[Wilhelms]

My only point this time was that it is not only silly me who finds this plan highly unrealistic even with all the arguments that "by becoming a Member she will gain important social connections and influence". The mere fact that this topic pops up every now and then in this thread proves how fragile is her plan. I just wanted to support Wilhelms , that's it.

The Devs understand all that perfectly and said so many times in the game and here. The only problem I see is the highly split Felicia's personality: on one hand, she is smart and thoroughly calculating woman who builds her success step by step, on the other hand she is frustrated housewife becoming a suicidal gambler ready to lose everything out of her boredom. It's like two different characters in one - bordering on a mental disease.

May be that's the idea, we'll see.

The split personality that you are talking about might be due to her gold digging habit/experience, she had done it so many times that she has become over confident in her skill. Now as I have said what she did is definitely dumb, but what if that's who she actually is, a dumb slut, who had it easy so far and this is where she will be snapped. And this might just be how she is written for the game like dev has already stated here.

Kathleen kinda decodes her perfectly in her exhibition, says she's just a gold digging slut, she left her poor mom (who taught her painting from which she earned a national award/medal, but she said she couldn't have made a Life out of painting after admitting that she loved painting, again kinda foolish) to dig gold in the city and probably might have already mined many gold mines before strucking the absolute peak gold mine (Elias) but Kathleen mentions that for a gold digger like her nothing is peak, she can't ever stop chasing gold, now definitely Kathleen was cut by Felicia admitting that and saying "you gotta eat until you bust" and I think this club will be the last thing she will be eating and before even consuming it she will bust (in a wosrs kinda way), how?.

Now take this with a grain of salt because this is just a bad theory but I think Kathleen herself will expose her to her husband because I don't know why but after playing the 2nd exhibition I am getting a feeling that Kathleen isn't gonna let the carnations go anywhere (might be just me or the game deliberately want you to feel that way) , seems like she will do everything that she can do to prevent the carnations from going even after the exhibitions has ended. Basically it seems like she is putting the carnations into a point of no return (it's subtle but it's there) and what better way to do so in case of Felicia than to shatter her marriage?

Btw anyone noticed nobody talks about the former carnations, what happened to them? It might be because it's totally irrelevant/"not connected" to the current plot or it might be that information has been withheld deliberately to make up for a shock at the end.

TD1900 will this arrangement of choosing a single carnation continue till the last exhibition or will we have to face disappointment by unavoidable humiliation of all of the carnations, I have selected Felicia to enjoy the punishments so far, the other two carnations are off limit to the patrons in my playthrough and I would like for this to continue till the very end or do you have some other plans?

 

[ffive]

but what if that's who she actually is, a dumb slut

You need to be pretty crafty to actually end up a trophy wife for a very rich guy and not his random side piece. Because "dumb sluts" aiming for that spot are dime a dozen.

 

[prpa]

The split personality that you are talking about might be due to her gold digging habit/experience, she had done it so many times that she has become over confident in her skill. Now as I have said what she did is definitely dumb, but what if that's who she actually is, a dumb slut, who had it easy so far and this is where she will be snapped. And this might just be how she is written for the game like dev has already stated here.

Kathleen kinda decodes her perfectly in her exhibition, says she's just a gold digging slut, she left her poor mom (who taught her painting from which she earned a national award/medal, but she said she couldn't have made a Life out of painting after admitting that she loved painting, again kinda foolish) to dig gold in the city and probably might have already mined many gold mines before strucking the absolute peak gold mine (Elias) but Kathleen mentions that for a gold digger like her nothing is peak, she can't ever stop chasing gold, now definitely Kathleen was cut by Felicia admitting that and saying "you gotta eat until you bust" and I think this club will be the last thing she will be eating and before even consuming it she will bust (in a wosrs kinda way), how?.

We all play differently, and have our favorites, you can play your way and ruin her.

This is not a kinetic novel, I personally like Felicia and I hope there will be a way for her to succeed in her plans, or at least some kind of happy ending.

 

[Wilhelms]

You need to be pretty crafty to actually end up a trophy wife for a very rich guy and not his random side piece. Because "dumb sluts" aiming for that spot are dime a dozen.

I think I have already said that she is intelligent in her skills in my first post and in this post I used the word "experience" in her field. What makes her dumb is her inability to know the limits of those skills, which in my and Kathleen's opinion capsized when she got Elias.

We all play differently, and have our favorites, you can play your way and ruin her.

This is not a kinetic novel, I personally like Felicia and I hope there will be a way for her to succeed in her plans, or at least some kind of happy ending.

The theory that I described could be one of the many endings (if it even turns to be true, which is unlikely), I didn't claimed that's solely how the game will end. And if I could I would like to have a happy ending with her myself, my MC has a Love/Hate relationship with her but in the end Love will prevail.

 

[ffive]

I think I have already said that she is intelligent in her skills in my first post and in this post I used the word "experience" in her field. What makes her dumb is her inability to know the limits of those skills, which in my and Kathleen's opinion capsized when she got Elias.

This really seems like completely contradictory stances to take -- if someone is intelligent about their skills, then that includes knowing their limits in these skills. Additionally, i don't know what you mean here by not knowing limits of the skills in this context, because gold digging and participation in sex exhibition are, at best, related only tangentially.

 

[DarkLords00]

This really seems like completely contradictory stances to take -- if someone is intelligent about their skills, then that includes knowing their limits in these skills. Additionally, i don't know what you mean here by not knowing limits of the skills in this context, because gold digging and participation in sex exhibition are, at best, related only tangentially.

Personally, I think you guys get way to hang up on some character's idiotic actions when everybody is capable of doing irrational/stupid things during emotional duress (and considering this is a story, sometimes is even needed for the plot ) . Granted, I also believe that Felicia is one of the most ignorant of the bunch when it comes to personal goals but that's only because the methods she is using seem pretty careless and stupid to me and unlike Rose and Veronica, she wasn't under the possible effects of desperation when the club (Ian in this case) approached she was scheming so she comes off as more of a dunce in comparison.

That's not me saying that Feli is the only one that does stupid shit, far from it but I guess for some people she is the one that sticks out the most and with other cases... For example, Kathleen becoming such a deviant sadist to the point that a Mafioso is was expressing concern over it during a private convo and she is willing to invite a personal life realtionship of one of her "toys" merely to satisfy her sadism when it can cause a cascade of bad consequences for her gameshow IS stupid (at least imo) but since an action like this is done to satisfy her sadism players/characters may only percieve it as evil.

Mina is another example (Despite her being my favourite girl ) , she is far too willing to jump from a relationship with a guy that caused her a lot of pain trough a decent chunk of it to becoming physically intimiate with said person best friend despite herself recognizing how similiar the two of them are, that's also pretty stupid but it is more easily excused when you take into account her age and far too little life experience (and it can be semi-justifiable if the player has played Edwin in a way to make him differ from Ian) .

 

[ffive]

That's not me saying that Feli is the only one that does stupid shit, far from it but I guess for some people she is the one that sticks out the most and with other cases...

I think my distaste/objection is mainly due to this difference -- that while you can point at pretty much every character in the game and at some arguably dumb actions they've performed, curiously, those actions don't cause people to extrapolate them into calling those characters "dumb sluts" in the same manner they're oh-so-happy to throw it at Felicia, anywhere near this quick.

In a way, it seems that she tends to push their buttons just as much as she does with Kat...

 

[Turret]

The split personality that you are talking about might be due to her gold digging habit/experience, she had done it so many times that she has become over confident in her skill. Now as I have said what she did is definitely dumb, but what if that's who she actually is, a dumb slut, who had it easy so far and this is where she will be snapped. And this might just be how she is written for the game like dev has already stated here.

Kathleen kinda decodes her perfectly in her exhibition, says she's just a gold digging slut, she left her poor mom (who taught her painting from which she earned a national award/medal, but she said she couldn't have made a Life out of painting after admitting that she loved painting, again kinda foolish) to dig gold in the city and probably might have already mined many gold mines before strucking the absolute peak gold mine (Elias) but Kathleen mentions that for a gold digger like her nothing is peak, she can't ever stop chasing gold, now definitely Kathleen was cut by Felicia admitting that and saying "you gotta eat until you bust" and I think this club will be the last thing she will be eating and before even consuming it she will bust (in a wosrs kinda way), how?.

Now take this with a grain of salt because this is just a bad theory but I think Kathleen herself will expose her to her husband because I don't know why but after playing the 2nd exhibition I am getting a feeling that Kathleen isn't gonna let the carnations go anywhere (might be just me or the game deliberately want you to feel that way) , seems like she will do everything that she can do to prevent the carnations from going even after the exhibitions has ended. Basically it seems like she is putting the carnations into a point of no return (it's subtle but it's there) and what better way to do so in case of Felicia than to shatter her marriage?

Btw anyone noticed nobody talks about the former carnations, what happened to them? It might be because it's totally irrelevant/"not connected" to the current plot or it might be that information has been withheld deliberately to make up for a shock at the end.

TD1900 will this arrangement of choosing a single carnation continue till the last exhibition or will we have to face disappointment by unavoidable humiliation of all of the carnations, I have selected Felicia to enjoy the punishments so far, the other two carnations are off limit to the patrons in my playthrough and I would like for this to continue till the very end or do you have some other plans?

Hi!
You theory, while it has some points, also has some flaws. So time to throw a little falsify wrench in.
Let us start with a former Carnation winner. The winner of the first Carnation game is now a world famous actress and a red carpet regular. How much talent and how much connections due to the PC club is resposible for this rise is not know currently, but it seems that she is a great thespian, still the club connections will not have hurt, on the contrary. This is canon and it shows that the Carnations who win can rise high.
That she is called back to help this year is IMHO partly to show what the Club and it´s members can influence, small and large, but also very much due to the fact Kath starts her play to take over the club.

This plays into another point to make. Kath did NOT decode Felicia in the second round, on the contrary, Kath miscalculated several times when it comes to Felicia, e.g. her mother and Felicia are still on great terms. Bringing Elias into all this is not a sign of strength of Kath, no she is desperate to best Felicia and is taking extreme risk herself. August, who is the most businessman of the three PC leaders, would ask Kath if she is still well-insulated (that sarcastic saying really is lost in translation, I have to say) if he knew about Elias coming. Kath kept Elias secret from August and Chuck, knowing full well what both their reaction would be.
Once again, bringing Elias into it, is mostly because Kath has started her play to gain sole leadership of PC. It is actually Kath who is the more overconfident compared to Felicia.

 

[Wilhelms]

Mina is another example (Despite her being my favourite girl ) , she is far too willing to jump from a relationship with a guy that caused her a lot of pain trough a decent chunk of it to becoming physically intimiate with said person best friend despite herself recognizing how similiar the two of them are, that's also pretty stupid but it is more easily excused when you take into account her age and far too little life experience (and it can be semi-justifiable if the player has played Edwin in a way to make him differ from Ian) .

Actually mina getting mingled with her ex's bff is the least of the inconsistencies in her case, you forgot to mention that bucket list of hers, it came out of no fucking where, at one point she is so timid and shy that we have to gain bi curious points with her to get a possible future threesome, and then suddenly she through a bucket list full of depraved and "out of question" dirty things (for someone like her).

It feels like devs need her to be like this (but it's not her character or it shouldn't be) for a possible club master/(or at least continue as a carnations caretaker guy and also disclose it to mina) ending, because with this inconsistency in her character she might like that revelation.

Also can anyone explain what she is saying here, I have a vague idea(s) about what she is saying but I am not sure, not a native English speaker.


Btw it kinda made me dislike her a little because even though she ready to do so many perverted things to do with the MC but it was so out of character for her that I questioned if she is the same mina that I liked before this revelation.

 

[ffive]

Actually mina getting mingled with her ex's bff is the least of the inconsistencies in her case, you forgot to mention that bucket list of hers, it came out of no fucking where, at one point she is so timid and shy that we have to gain bi curious points with her to get a possible future threesome, and then suddenly she through a bucket list full of depraved and "out of question" dirty things (for someone like her).

Mina is ostensibly timid and shy mostly according to Ian who doesn't really know her all that well because he doesn't seem to have much interest in actually listening to what a girl may be saying.

The bucket list is something Mina simply didn't share with anyone (or at least not with her now ex-boyfriend) but we also know that she watches porn (again, weirding Ian out because, you know, a girl watching porn, inconceivable) so it's not like her interest in sex comes from nowhere.

Also, nothing really odd or timid and shy about developing one's interest in the same sex in early twenties.

 

[Wilhelms]

Once again, bringing Elias into it, is mostly because Kath has started her play to gain sole leadership of PC. It is actually Kath who is the more overconfident compared to Felicia.

Yeah but she's always shown as a little reckless in what she does with the carnations and what she can do to gain sole leadership of the club, while she can do stupid things because of these reasons that's totally within her character. And anyway at least she has a clear direction and better plan than Felicia, Felicia is just going with the wind while risking everything she has.

her mother and Felicia are still on great terms.

You sure Felicia even lying about being on better terms with her mother? All she said was that she contacts her 2 times a month on "phone" and she mentioned her mom never accepted her money. This is on good terms?

 

[Wilhelms]

@TD1900 will this arrangement of choosing a single carnation continue till the last exhibition or will we have to face disappointment by unavoidable humiliation of all of the carnations, I have selected Felicia to enjoy the punishments so far, the other two carnations are off limit to the patrons in my playthrough and I would like for this to continue till the very end or do you have some other plans?

Btw anyone have an answer for this because seems like TD1900 doesn't want to disclose this information to his vanilla player base. If no one have an answer I will have to assume that all carnations will be on plate for the patrons in the last exhibition, no matter who wins and who's on the last place.

 

[DarkLords00]

Mina is ostensibly timid and shy mostly according to Ian who doesn't really know her all that well because he doesn't seem to have much interest in actually listening to what a girl may be saying.

The bucket list is something Mina simply didn't share with anyone (or at least not with her now ex-boyfriend) but we also know that she watches porn (again, weirding Ian out because, you know, a girl watching porn, inconceivable) so it's not like her interest in sex comes from nowhere.

Also, nothing really odd or timid and shy about developing one's interest in the same sex in early twenties.

The most irrealistic part about this game tbqh

I really do not believe a person like Ian who leads that kind of lifestyle would feel weird at all about his girlfriend watching porn, I guess one could make an argument it's due to childhood insecurites I still wouldn't buy it but that's just me

Actually mina getting mingled with her ex's bff is the least of the inconsistencies in her case, you forgot to mention that bucket list of hers, it came out of no fucking where, at one point she is so timid and shy that we have to gain bi curious points with her to get a possible future threesome, and then suddenly she through a bucket list full of depraved and "out of question" dirty things (for someone like her).

It feels like devs need her to be like this (but it's not her character or it shouldn't be) for a possible club master/(or at least continue as a carnations caretaker guy and also disclose it to mina) ending, because with this inconsistency in her character she might like that revelation.

Also can anyone explain what she is saying here, I have a vague idea(s) about what she is saying but I am not sure, not a native English speaker.
View attachment 4817951

Btw it kinda made me dislike her a little because even though she ready to do so many perverted things to do with the MC but it was so out of character for her that I questioned if she is the same mina that I liked before this revelation.

On the bucket list topic, I've never found it all that inconsistent or that it came "out of nowhere" since from all the previous interactions Edwin had with her can end up being a bit on the sexual or foreplay side (Like the audition scene practice or the King Game's at Ian's apartment) . I do believe she hadn't started to properly act on those desires as of pretty recently mainly because deep down she probably knew she didn't trust Ian for any kind of longterm serious relationship and only continued to be her girlrfriend in part do to pride (due to her Mother's relatinship background) and because of sunk coast fallacy despite being some things she genuinely liked about him.

On that scene however, my personal interpretation always was that she hadn't properly reacted to the betrayal mainly for two reasons:

The first one being, she was already very aware of Ian's constant cheating and lies, she put up with it mainly because it was her first serious relationship (At least that was Edwin's impression of it) so when it all came crashing down and she literally couldn't dismiss it anymore she gets very emotional for a bit but then shuts off, due to the fact that she has been dealing with her cheating the whole time.

The second one I believe is because she never took the relationship with Ian that seriously. Don't get me wrong, I do think she made an effort but it seems to me that she, being smarter than she looks, deep down knew she didn't want anything long-term with him (or at least this version of him).

If you don't like her or consider her a bad person, that's perfectly fine. She has her bad and good parts, just like all characters in this game. Personally to me, she seems the most moral of the bunch (When it comes to the girls) but that could change with any update obviously.

Spoiler: Since we are on the topic of Mina...

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[Beduin123]

Now as I have said what she did is definitely dumb, but what if that's who she actually is, a dumb slut, who had it easy so far and this is where she will be snapped. And this might just be how she is written for the game like dev has already stated

Yes, but what are all those numerous scenes during the exhibition, in her hideout etc are for? They all imply that she has higher than average intellect and deep artistic personality. Doesn't match in my mind with an image of a dumb slut.

One minute she is a highly sophisticated and very intelligent woman, next moment she is sex crazed dumb slut who cannot calculate the consequences of her actions. And let me remind you, her whole career of a successful gold digger was based on her intelligence, manipulative skills and ability to calculate the consequences of her actions.

Sorry, but I cannot buy the "dumb slut" narrative. As she written, she is obviously one the most complicated and intelligent women in the game except (or not) maybe Kathleen. So, either she is truly playing 4D chess or she suffered a sudden brain damage when decided to go for the Exhibition.

Now take this with a grain of salt because this is just a bad theory but I think Kathleen herself will expose her to her husband because I don't know why but after playing the 2nd exhibition I am getting a feeling that Kathleen isn't gonna let the carnations go anywhere

Well, I think it is not a "bad theory" but a pretty obvious thing. Kathleen always digs a lot of information on the Carnations and invitation of Elias to the club cannot be a coincidence.

I am getting a feeling that Kathleen isn't gonna let the carnations go anywhere (might be just me or the game deliberately want you to feel that way) , seems like she will do everything that she can do to prevent the carnations from going even after the exhibitions has ended.

A few people here have expressed their opinion before that the Club is where Felicia shall belong to after the Exhibition. Maybe as a premium house girl. I can also see Rosie perfectly fitting in. She is basically the same as Lucy but softer and less ambitious. Veronica IMO is the most alien case, but if properly broken, can fit in the club too.

 

[MilesEdgeworth]

Exposing felicia to her husband would screw up the exhibition. Why would Kathleen do that? She might threaten, even put pressure, but she wouldn't expose any of the girls, it doesn't help the exhibition at all