VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Simpgor]

Really sums up why this thread (and a few others) are worth sticking around for me, id high five some of you while we tagged team someone for sure

 

[Nulldev]

Lucy is hawt.
Lucy would look better after a car crash than Rosalind dolled up, this is my bucket sized sand pile I would die on!

 

[GamingSavant]

In my opinion, that scene wasn't meant to be hot, it was meant to drive home the reality of what the club does to these women. It's not a safe space where everyone has fun. Seeing Veronica endure that, my sympathy for her went through the roof. This isn't a simple erotic fantasy. It's a story that delves deeply into what the skin trade really does to women (and men). The writing reflects that.

not to mention, it wasn't like, a fresh batch either, that twisted hag had that shit in a refridgerator, COOLING. *BLEEEEECH*

 

[lustforsex]

View attachment 4970719

Really sums up why this thread (and a few others) are worth sticking around for me, id high five some of you while we tagged team someone for sure

I look more like the guy on the bottom left after ename144 stomped on me
But if I have to put my ridiculous interpretations on display in order for such discussions to continue, I am prepared to make such sacrifices

 

[Ozymandias037]

It's quite nasty, isn't it? I guess that was the point. I was reminded of one episode of the reality show Fear Factor where the contestants had to guzzle down liters of donkey semen and piss on a timer. There's no shortage of people who do the strangest things for money or a little fame. I say let them.

not to mention, it wasn't like, a fresh batch either, that twisted hag had that shit in a refridgerator, COOLING. *BLEEEEECH*

We really need a puke emoji on this forum.

 

[immortalslayer90]

Why? Even assholes can be tender to someone, specially if they see that someone as a tragic figure that has suffered to prevent them from that.
Also, he doesn't read as "bitter" with Victoria as much as angry with the ones that caused her falling there. Mind you, I think Dr. Chuck may suffer an accident along the line, should the story reveal that Victoria end recording those tapes as payment for Chuck's help (directly or not).

I mean sure, I'm not saying it's impossible for him to be tender. I'm saying that the way he obsesses over the videos of her, the way he reacts when he meets Donovan, mixed with a more cruel leaning MC playthrough, would lead to him either calling out her for "enjoying it", as she seems to with Donovan, or perhaps the fact that she actually mentions her son in that video, he could say she was using him as an excuse to engage in her fantasies, or something. I don't know, it just feels like there should be more of a choice there depending which way he leans. I have two main playthroughs for this game, that I labeled "kind" and "cruel", for simplicity's sake. My kind MC would forgive her instantly, makes total sense. My more cruel MC? Not the way he would act, or at least, I don't think so. I don't know, forgiving her feels like it could be a major game choice that was just taken away. But again, that is just my opinion!

 

[fred9320]

A bit of fan arts(AI)

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hana and felicia are so sexyyyyy

 

[slightchance]

We really need a puke emoji on this forum.

Not a fan of Rocky Mountain oysters either, I assume? Kinda funny though that they make the distinction between fresh and cooled sperm as if it tastes so much better on tap...when the opposite is probably more true. Cold things are less flavorful. The odor is not as pungent anymore as well since some of the components responsible are volatile. Plus even the thickest load has become runny at this point. People who drink their egg whites raw in the morning are half way there.

 

[lustforsex]

It's not about coddling sensitive players (we've seen worse just getting to the choice), its about roleplaying the main character. When we first learned about the videos, the MC specifically mentioned his desire to delete them once he finally told Victoria that he knew about them and thanked her for what she had done. Well, the moment didn't play out at all the way he thought it would, but is has nonetheless arrived. So why wouldn't he delete the videos? What has changed?

It's a good question. The cheeky answer is that he's horny and doesn't want to give up the spank material now that push has come to show. But while there's some truth in that summary, I think it's a vast oversimplification that obscures a far more significant detail - namely that what intrigues the MC in this moment isn't the sex itself, but rather the 'relationship' between Victoria and Donovan. The MC has seen this tape before (or else he wouldn't have subconsciously recognized Donovan), but at the time it clearly wasn't particularly memorable because it was just one of many tapes his mom made. But now he has a direct, personal link to that tape. Moreover, the link is through Vicky's costar, a man praised by Andrea for looking out for the girls with whom he makes porn. The MC's interest in this tape is suddenly a much less about the images of his mom having sex and much more about peeping into her private life as a whole - which is definitely not the sort of thing a child should be obsessing over.

Granted, this is an AVN not the real world; this sort of incestuous voyeurism is fairly tame in this neck of the woods (even accounting for Patreon's gatekeeping). But I still think it's important to note the disconnect here for two main reasons. First, because any look into Victoria's professional sex life is going to beg questions about how much pleasure she got out of it. Personally, I don't really think that should matter to anyone but Victoria, but that's easy for me to say from the safety of my ivory tower. This is far closer to home for the MC, particularly since it could potentially disrupt the mental image of Victoria he's built upon the principle that she was willing to sacrifice everything to give him the best childhood possible. That's not a knot one should unravel lightly.

But the second and more important reason is that Victoria's behavior makes it crystal clear she does *NOT* want the MC to watch those tapes again. She's so ashamed of that period of her life that the mere thought of having to explain it to her son is enough to send the normally unflappable woman on a drunken bender. This illustrates that the MC's instinct to delete the tapes once the truth was revealed was the right one. The past has to be acknowledged to put Vicky's mind at ease and show that her son still loves her, but once that's done there's no need to revisit it - and certainly no need to go back and analyze the videos for clues about what she was experiencing at the time!

To me, this dilemma about what to do about the old videos ties directly into the longstanding question of whether the MC is a "good" person or not. There's nothing on those videos he needs to see again and it's clear his mom would be humiliated knowing he's continuing to watch them, so the conscientious thing to do would be to never watch them again and delete the files. There's plenty of other porn to watch, so it's not like this is a big sacrifice for the MC. Going back to rewatch those films to satisfy his own morbid curiosity is ultimately another opportunity for the MC to indulge his sadistic side, and given the importance of Victoria (both to the MC and to the story as a whole) subjecting her to his sadistic side - however indirectly - deserves to be treated as a big deal.

And even beyond the simple morality play, this also effectively mirrors the choice Killian is going to have to make now that he knows (or will soon learn, no doubt) that the one woman he still idolizes has far more in common with the sluts he's learned (or more like, been taught) to disrespect than his simplistic world view allows for. Can he learn to separate the two in his mind? Can he keep treating Victoria with respect even if she filmed scenes encouraging people to debase her, or will he get caught up in the images and focus only on the debasement? I suspect Ian will be much better equipped to maintain his respect for Victoria if the MC can keep a lid on his own darker impulses.

Now just to be clear, I'm not saying all this to shame anyone who wants to see the sexy Vicky vids. This is a game, after all, so all's fair for the player. But that's precisely why we get all those save slots - so we can play out different versions of the MC and see what changes. But part of selling those changes is giving us important choices that lead to significantly different outcomes, and to me the decision to delete or rewatch those old films is a crucial example.


There's definitely nothing in the video that caused Victoria to finally confess the truth, not unless the MC downloaded it within the last week! As I said above, I think it popped into his head because he'd met Donovan the previous day and was wondering about how Victoria's view of him would compare to Andrea's. That's a private matter he really shouldn't dig into behind Vicky's back, particularly now that he's seen how raw a nerve the topic is for her.

That's why things have changed now that the truth is out. It's all well and good use her old videos as an empathy crutch, but it rather defeats the purpose if he has to ignore the distress it would cause his own mom to do it. IMHO, anyway.



I don't think the MC had any particular aversion to this particular video, otherwise he'd have remembered that aversion clearly once his brain made the connection. I think his memory is blurry because there were a bunch of videos and there was little to make this particular video stand out... until now.

That said, I actually complained about the convoluted metaphor of the blurry memories in my elephantine review of the update. It's not entirely clear what the blur represents, and it doesn't mesh well with the previous memories the MC has had of Victoria's videos. Perhaps we'll learn more when we see the rest of the story, but for now I think the blur could have been handled better with a little tweaking.

I thought for a while and wondered how Edwin could answer the question he asked himself at the very beginning of the game if he delete the videos:

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All those excuses during the game, that he watches videos to avoid looking down on other people or tries to understand Victoria's motives and whether she likes all this, are true to some extent, but not the main one. Deleting the videos won't change anything in the long run, because he won't be able to answer the question above. This first video of Vicky with Donovan may open his eyes to why he's watching all this.

This may be a stupid comparison, but I know people who install games (Dota 2) before each session, and then delete them because they are overwhelmed with negative emotions. And this continues for them almost every day, for many years. And all because they don't ask themselves why they continue to play at all. Maybe because they like these negative emotions, but they can't admit it to themselves? Maybe they didn't realize that this game brings less positive emotions than negative ones?

To put an end to this, Edwin needs to realize and accept the main reason why he watches these videos. And as cynical as it may sound, Victoria's tears, which were the result of Grace's blackmail, should not stop Edwin from knowing himself.

If he realizes what's wrong with him and why he's actually been watching those videos for years - it doesn't necessarily have to be a point of no return. If he deletes the videos, the obsessive thoughts will not disappear anywhere, that's why they are obsessive, and the videos will only disappear from his computer. It's something like taking pills for a constant headache, instead of going to the doctor and finding out the cause.

I also want to say that bad thoughts =/= a bad person. If all people start to realize their dark fantasies in reality - chaos will come to the world. Although this isn't necessary, you can simply remove the laws and you will see how people turn into animals. Of course, not all. You will be a bad person only if you show it to other people with your actions and it doesn't matter at all who you are deep down:

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This is my interpretation, and it may fundamentally differ from what TD has in store for us. For me personally, until Edwin answers the question he asked himself at the very beginning of the game, trying to turn a blind eye to it isn't the best idea.

 

[UmbralKnight]

my sympathy for her went through the roof.

while that scene was disgusting for me at that point i didn't feel a lot of sympathy for her because of 2 reasons

A) MC and Veronica at that point don't have a good rapport yet and she didn't see him as anything other than Kathy's lackey

B) That entire situation was AVOIDABLE ,yes samson did try to grab her from behind and she had every right to defend herself but she had been antagonizing literally everyone up until that point so when kathy chooses one of the most humiliating and disgusting methods to punish her nobody tried to stop it even though her "crime" were very minor

i did come to like , love and sympathize with her as a character after week 2 exhibition i think where kathy punishes her and humiliates her in front of everyone because she turned one of kathy's tricks against her
while it was a defiant effort ultimately kathy made sure that she paid for that little stunt with both her body and mind

it was that little scene just after the shower where the MC can hug her, comfort her and call her as "friend" that finally made be completely switch to her side

not only the scene itself very "intimate" but it's not exactly sexual , yes she is naked but it is very intimate in the sense that this isthe scene wherethe MC finally gets a glimpse of her real personality , her rationalizations on why she is there and yet you can still see that she is still proud ,defiant and strongwilled even after what happened

for once she actually doesn't care that the MC is still kathys lackey and instead is thankful for his support

that was the moment that clicked for me

 

[Kameri]

View attachment 4970719

Really sums up why this thread (and a few others) are worth sticking around for me, id high five some of you while we tagged team someone for sure

i'm in here for shits and giggles like this lol

 

[broxitar]

while that scene was disgusting for me at that point i didn't feel a lot of sympathy for her because of 2 reasons

A) MC and Veronica at that point don't have a good rapport yet and she didn't see him as anything other than Kathy's lackey

B) That entire situation was AVOIDABLE ,yes samson did try to grab her from behind and she had every right to defend herself but she had been antagonizing literally everyone up until that point so when kathy chooses one of the most humiliating and disgusting methods to punish her nobody tried to stop it even though her "crime" were very minor

i did come to like , love and sympathize with her as a character after week 2 exhibition i think where kathy punishes her and humiliates her in front of everyone because she turned one of kathy's tricks against her
while it was a defiant effort ultimately kathy made sure that she paid for that little stunt with both her body and mind

it was that little scene just after the shower where the MC can hug her, comfort her and call her as "friend" that finally made be completely switch to her side

not only the scene itself very "intimate" but it's not exactly sexual , yes she is naked but it is very intimate in the sense that this isthe scene wherethe MC finally gets a glimpse of her real personality , her rationalizations on why she is there and yet you can still see that she is still proud ,defiant and strongwilled even after what happened

for once she actually doesn't care that the MC is still kathys lackey and instead is thankful for his support

that was the moment that clicked for me

You make a good point. I suppose I misspoke. It's less that I became totally in her corner than that I felt a strong pull to be gentler with her after that, despite our lack of rapport. I guess you could say, it made me want to establish a rapport, to make it clear that I wasn't like the sickos surrounding her.

Seeing her suffer that ordeal firmly reestablished the arduous nature of what she'd signed up for, despite her turning the tables on Kathy briefly. Even if Veronica hadn't been antagonistic, I didn't imagine anyone in that audience would speak up in her defense when Kathy chose her punishment. The degradation is all part of what the club is about.

 

[ename144]

I thought for a while and wondered how Edwin could answer the question he asked himself at the very beginning of the game if he delete the videos:

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All those excuses during the game, that he watches videos to avoid looking down on other people or tries to understand Victoria's motives and whether she likes all this, are true to some extent, but not the main one. Deleting the videos won't change anything in the long run, because he won't be able to answer the question above. This first video of Vicky with Donovan may open his eyes to why he's watching all this.

This may be a stupid comparison, but I know people who install games (Dota 2) before each session, and then delete them because they are overwhelmed with negative emotions. And this continues for them almost every day, for many years. And all because they don't ask themselves why they continue to play at all. Maybe because they like these negative emotions, but they can't admit it to themselves? Maybe they didn't realize that this game brings less positive emotions than negative ones?

To put an end to this, Edwin needs to realize and accept the main reason why he watches these videos. And as cynical as it may sound, Victoria's tears, which were the result of Grace's blackmail, should not stop Edwin from knowing himself.

If he realizes what's wrong with him and why he's actually been watching those videos for years - it doesn't necessarily have to be a point of no return. If he deletes the videos, the obsessive thoughts will not disappear anywhere, that's why they are obsessive, and the videos will only disappear from his computer. It's something like taking pills for a constant headache, instead of going to the doctor and finding out the cause.

I also want to say that bad thoughts =/= a bad person. If all people start to realize their dark fantasies in reality - chaos will come to the world. Although this isn't necessary, you can simply remove the laws and you will see how people turn into animals. Of course, not all. You will be a bad person only if you show it to other people with your actions and it doesn't matter at all who you are deep down:

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This is my interpretation, and it may fundamentally differ from what TD has in store for us. For me personally, until Edwin answers the question he asked himself at the very beginning of the game, trying to turn a blind eye to it isn't the best idea.

I see what you're getting at and I agree that why the MC is watching those videos is the crux of the matter. Where I disagree is with the notion that *watching* the videos again is necessary to answer the question. I don't think it is, at least not directly.

I see the decision to watch or delete the videos as effectively the answer to the question all by itself. An MC who deletes them has concluded that he was watching them for the wrong reasons (possibly to help cope with his confusion and uncertainty over how to address his mother's past), but now that everything is in the open there is no need to see that 'filth' again. On the other hand, and MC who watches the video again has concluded that there is *something* of value in those videos and thus wants to embrace the opportunity to find out what it is, regardless of the cost.

Neither choice is wrong in a gaming sense, they just lead to different outcomes. I frame the decision to delete the videos as the "good" choice because that's how the MC's internal dialog has framed his more empathic side throughout the game. But ultimately it's two sides of the same coin, the choice of what to do with the videos is a metaphor for who we want our MC to be in microcosm.

Obviously in the real world it's almost never that simple, but this is a work of interactive fiction, where external actions tend to be more tightly tied with internal struggles. That's what I'm expecting, anyway!

 

[Lusurbur]

Replaying again and I gotta say that i also hope that besides lucy getting more content i also wish kathleens path gets explored aswell preferably in a more intimate way where we can sort of delve into her personal life...maybe even make her into a cum drunk sow but only for the mc and only in private considering kathleen understands perception is important especially at the club. Would even be kino if you could even play as the willing bull in kathleens marriage while her husband watches willingly or not....

 

[Ozymandias037]

Not a fan of Rocky Mountain oysters either, I assume? Kinda funny though that they make the distinction between fresh and cooled sperm as if it tastes so much better on tap...when the opposite is probably more true. Cold things are less flavorful. The odor is not as pungent anymore as well since some of the components responsible are volatile. Plus even the thickest load has become runny at this point. People who drink their egg whites raw in the morning are half way there.

I mean... Like most people who grew up in Colorado I was pranked by someone at some point and fed Rocky Mountain Oysters before I knew what they were. And like, no, I'm not much of a fan, but I think the squick about that only comes in retrospect. I think "cover it in batter and throw it in the deep fryer" is one of the most transformative culinary superpowers out there, right along with "drown it in garlic butter and herbs."

That said, I have absolutely no qualms in admitting that my thought process completely stopped at "donkey semen" and barely even registered "piss." Your points about texture and flavor were far, far outside the realm of my consideration

 

[lustforsex]

I see what you're getting at and I agree that why the MC is watching those videos is the crux of the matter. Where I disagree is with the notion that *watching* the videos again is necessary to answer the question. I don't think it is, at least not directly.

I see the decision to watch or delete the videos as effectively the answer to the question all by itself. An MC who deletes them has concluded that he was watching them for the wrong reasons (possibly to help cope with his confusion and uncertainty over how to address his mother's past), but now that everything is in the open there is no need to see that 'filth' again. On the other hand, and MC who watches the video again has concluded that there is *something* of value in those videos and thus wants to embrace the opportunity to find out what it is, regardless of the cost.

Neither choice is wrong in a gaming sense, they just lead to different outcomes. I frame the decision to delete the videos as the "good" choice because that's how the MC's internal dialog has framed his more empathic side throughout the game. But ultimately it's two sides of the same coin, the choice of what to do with the videos is a metaphor for who we want our MC to be in microcosm.

Obviously in the real world it's almost never that simple, but this is a work of interactive fiction, where external actions tend to be more tightly tied with internal struggles. That's what I'm expecting, anyway!

Probably the closest description of what the real reason for watching these videos is shown in the conversation with Mina after the scene in the hotel. However, this conversation will not happen if you don't follow her path.

Most players will likely choose not to delete the videos simply because they don't want to miss the scene
And as you mentioned, this choice may be more tragic for Edwin, but there is also a chance that this choice will stop him from floating in uncertainty about both Victoria's motives and his own, possibly incorrect, beliefs.

We also need to take into account that Vicky decided to tell Edwin about her past not of her own free will (thanks to Grace). Edwin wants to have a heart-to-heart talk with her about it, but does she want to...? It all comes down to motives.

 

[Kiyah]

I mean sure, I'm not saying it's impossible for him to be tender. I'm saying that the way he obsesses over the videos of her, the way he reacts when he meets Donovan, mixed with a more cruel leaning MC playthrough, would lead to him either calling out her for "enjoying it", as she seems to with Donovan, or perhaps the fact that she actually mentions her son in that video, he could say she was using him as an excuse to engage in her fantasies, or something. I don't know, it just feels like there should be more of a choice there depending which way he leans. I have two main playthroughs for this game, that I labeled "kind" and "cruel", for simplicity's sake. My kind MC would forgive her instantly, makes total sense. My more cruel MC? Not the way he would act, or at least, I don't think so. I don't know, forgiving her feels like it could be a major game choice that was just taken away. But again, that is just my opinion!

That's precissely it, he obsesses over the videos. It's not lust (regardless of the level of assholery/sadism the MC may have), it's guilt.
Edwin feels guilty (to me, at least) because his mother had to resort to recording porn as an extra source of cash, not because they needed it to survive (like Rosalind) but because she wanted to provide extra comfort to the MC (not having to move to a smaller and cheaper house, for example).
Watching the videos gives to me vibes of penance, of scratching a barely scabbed wound. I could see the MC breaking should Victoria somehow ended in the club performing and really letting loose with her (dunno what would happen to Kathleen or Chuck afterwards, however, since those two are the ones who like to play mindgames and own others...), but that would be, I think, a Bad End (specially since Killian still has a platonic fixation with Victoria, thanks to how much of an asshole his mother is to him and others, making it quite easy to displace feelings of motherly love to Victoria).

Until this point, the game presents a story that is quite tight (aside from Felicia's painter exhibition, which considering who will show up for the weeking feels more like an extra layer of deception), and as such I think inserting a "fallen mother Victoria" route would complicate things needlesly (at least for now, once the whole game is ready, extra branches could be added).

 

[UmbralKnight]

I suppose I misspoke.

no , it's perfectly alright
In your play through it was that that force feeding scene which made you side with Veronica more
for me it was the latter scene
both are vaild arguments for supporting Veronica

didn't imagine anyone in that audience would speak up in her defense when Kathy chose her punishment. The degradation is all part of what the club is about.

True
but she doesn't understand/realise that
after all she literally tried to unionise the other carnations just a week later during the conversation in the diner

she is kinda of naive in that regard

 

[Ozymandias037]

That's precissely it, he obsesses over the videos. It's not lust (regardless of the level of assholery/sadism the MC may have), it's guilt.
Edwin feels guilty (to me, at least) because his mother had to resort to recording porn as an extra source of cash, not because they needed it to survive (like Rosalind) but because she wanted to provide extra comfort to the MC (not having to move to a smaller and cheaper house, for example).
Watching the videos gives to me vibes of penance, of scratching a barely scabbed wound. I could see the MC breaking should Victoria somehow ended in the club performing and really letting loose with her (dunno what would happen to Kathleen or Chuck afterwards, however, since those two are the ones who like to play mindgames and own others...), but that would be, I think, a Bad End (specially since Killian still has a platonic fixation with Victoria, thanks to how much of an asshole his mother is to him and others, making it quite easy to displace feelings of motherly love to Victoria).

Until this point, the game presents a story that is quite tight (aside from Felicia's painter exhibition, which considering who will show up for the weeking feels more like an extra layer of deception), and as such I think inserting a "fallen mother Victoria" route would complicate things needlesly (at least for now, once the whole game is ready, extra branches could be added).

I think you're on to something, or at the very least you have a very good theory. Specifically, the phrase "scratching a barely scabbed would" jumped out and resonated hard for me. That's exactly what it feels like. I don't know if Edwin himself is aware of why he keeps watching those videos, but he certainly knows it can't be good for him, but he does it anyway. Repeatedly, for years. Whatever the motivation (guilt, Oedipus complex, a struggle to understand, or whatever) there is absolutely a feeling of self-flagellation to it. He isn't doing this because it's fun, but rather because he is, for whatever reason, compelled to. It's a very unhealthy thing. I mean, I guess that goes without saying, but still.

I also think it's important to remember that Victoria's choices and Edwin's feelings and reactions about it are absolutely core to his character and his emotional journey. This is, after all, "a tale of motherly love." Rose and Grace and Victoria and their relationships with Edwin and Ian and others are all in this story for reasons. They're all different versions of "mother" and it's expressed and explored in different ways. TD has commented here about this multiple times. Hell, even Lucy and Felicia and other characters play into this central unifying theme.

I've said a lot about this before and I don't want to repeat myself, but I am constantly amazed at the narrative richness and complexity of this game. I keep coming back to this game and this thread because the story and the writing really make me want to peel whole thing apart and look at how it all works. The motivations and choices of the characters, the questions and feelings this game evokes in me as a player... it hits in ways most things don't. It makes me want to actually use all those analytical tools I picked up in English class. "Literary merit" is far, far down the list of things I generally expect in a porn game, but this one has it in spades. It's very much an S tier example of the "novel" part of AVN.

...Don't get me wrong, though, I'm ten million percent here for the porn part too (mostly, even). I'd be a liar if I said otherwise.

 

[ename144]

Probably the closest description of what the real reason for watching these videos is shown in the conversation with Mina after the scene in the hotel. However, this conversation will not happen if you don't follow her path.

Most players will likely choose not to delete the videos simply because they don't want to miss the scene
And as you mentioned, this choice may be more tragic for Edwin, but there is also a chance that this choice will stop him from floating in uncertainty about both Victoria's motives and his own, possibly incorrect, beliefs.

We also need to take into account that Vicky decided to tell Edwin about her past not of her own free will (thanks to Grace). Edwin wants to have a heart-to-heart talk with her about it, but does she want to...? It all comes down to motives.

I mean, I would expect most players to play both options on different save paths.

As far as Victoria wanting to tell the MC, I'd say she's doing so of her own free will even if it isn't the choice she'd make in a vacuum. Grace forced her hand, but only in the sense that Vicky coming clean to the MC is her way of defying Grace; I very much doubt forcing this reckoning was Grace's goal. Victoria (likely) had a way to keep her secret but chose to prioritize something else instead.

Given how much this game plays around in the grey margins of consent, I'd tend to consider this a voluntary act on Victoria's part.