VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Darreau91]

Of course there's always the risk that the whole really is more than the sum of its parts and the divided Exhibition won't pack quite the same punch we've come to expect.

A split at the end of the free roam pre exhibition would make the most sense imo instead of splitting up the exhibition. If it’s a shorter update it is what is. The joys of branching storylines and longer dev times.

 

[lustforsex]

I'd actually say it's almost the opposite; I get the distinct impression TD is very nervous about the lengthy delay and is seeking reassurance that his instinct isn't going to harm the game or its fans. To me that's the most potent argument in favor of a split release. Waiting sucks sure, but in the end we're all adults, we can endure it even if we'd rather not. But for our devs toiling away in the AVN mines, they're banking a lot on a positive outcome once the update is released. The longer they go without any feedback, the bigger the stakes and the bigger the dread they might have got it wrong. Plus I'm sure it's nice to come out and enjoy some metaphorical sunlight once in a while, too.

Of course there's always the risk that the whole really is more than the sum of its parts and the divided Exhibition won't pack quite the same punch we've come to expect. That would also be demoralizing, and probably wouldn't be any better for the financials than a longer wait for a better end product would have been. Basically, I don't think there's a silver bullet that ensures the best outcome regardless of the facts on the ground.

But on the bright side, I think the facts on the ground are very favorable. Most of the commenters on poll seem willing to trust whichever decision they make, so I don't think TD and GIL can go too far wrong as long as they keep giving it their best effort. They've more than earned our good will, so hopefully they won't second guess themselves once they pick their poison.

That TD and GIL are bothered by this proves that PC is more than just a game to them and that they care about the opinions of everyone interested in their project. They actually have a huge amount of trust and as many have already noted, neither option would be a mistake on their part.

For example, if they decide not to split the update, they could release more frequent dev diaries or previews, or maybe come up with something new to keep people interested until the next update. I don't think it would have a huge impact on the speed of development (although I'm not a dev, so who knows ), but as a compromise, I think it would be a good option.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

View attachment 5107307
Dev Diary 98

Hello all, TD here.

Ch4Up6 currently sits at 2,350 static images, 77 animations, and 48,530 words.

Which works out to 124 statics, 17 animations, and 3,570 words since the last dev diary.

A drop off compared to the last dev diary, but not every static or animation is created equal (one of the animations has like 8+ people in it for example). As mentioned last time, GIL is balls deep in a group scene that is the culmination of several character threads unspooled over the free roam. I'd say we're about 70% done with that, currently at the tail end of the first of two endings. That napkin math may seem weird, but they share the same lead in and quite a few animations so I'm hoping by the next report this scene and then some will be behind us. The scene we're working on after will actually be the theoretical terminus for potentially ending the update, but GIL and I both remain ambivalent about what to do. There's quite a bit of content in this update already, enough to justify a release, and giving you guys something would be a boost to our morale. However, we also know completing the full exhibition in a single update will be a more satisfying experience. We might actually do a poll on this, not to definitively let you guys make the choice for us, but to satiate our curiosity on what the silent portion of our supporters would prefer. If we **did** end the update here, our utmost goal would be to get the next half out over 3-4 months.

Anyway, that's for future us. Right now we'll keep to the trenches. As always, thank you so much for your support and enabling us to do what we love doing.

That is quite a big update if it would take up to four extra months to finish everything (not counting delays).
Not a patron but i would prefer GIL and TD to keep the update as a whole thing since this will be a grand exhibition event. I believe breaking it in half would do more damage than good on the long run to the flow of the story and scenes.

 

[Leinad_Sevla]

It's not gonna be remotely close to 1/2 months more, do you have any extrapolation skills ?

Read the rest of my answers after this one.

 

[pinuz1]

That is quite a big update if it would take up to four extra months to finish everything (not counting delays).
Not a patron but i would prefer GIL and TD to keep the update as a whole thing since this will be a grand exhibition event. I believe breaking it in half would do more damage than good on the long run to the flow of the story and scenes.

I'm sorry but I don't see how splitting the update would damage the story. At the end of the day, the other half will release later on, and future people that play the game will not even notice it.

I already mentioned this, but releasing 1 half already, would result in getting feedback for the first half, boost morale, would remove the weight of worrying about taking too long on certain scenes. The main reason I want the update to be split, is because I feel like it'll lead to a better story overall. Even if some people might complain .

What would be the damage that breaking the update in half would do? It could lessen the impact of the whole exhibition for those reading the updates as soon as they release. I'm 100% sure I'd enjoy reading exhibition #3 in one big update more, than split in two, and have to wait a couple months to read the other half, but if I'm being honest, I don't think it'll be that big of a deal, there's also the concern of people forgetting what even happened last update because of the long time gap, so there's arguments for both sides as usual.

I say TD and Gil should just do what they consider the best play, at the end of the day they are the only ones that actually know how the story is looking so far for this upcoming update, and if it's worth being split or not.

 

[ename144]

I'm sorry but I don't see how splitting the update would damage the story. At the end of the day, the other half will release later on, and future people that play the game will not even notice it.

I already mentioned this, but releasing 1 half already, would result in getting feedback for the first half, boost morale, would remove the weight of worrying about taking too long on certain scenes. The main reason I want the update to be split, is because I feel like it'll lead to a better story overall. Even if some people might complain .

What would be the damage that breaking the update in half would do? It could lessen the impact of the whole exhibition for those reading the updates as soon as they release. I'm 100% sure I'd enjoy reading enhibition #3 in one big update more, than split in two, and have to wait a couple months to read the other half, but if I'm being honest, I don't think it'll be that big of a deal, there's also the concern of people forgetting what even happened last update because of the long time gap, so there's arguments for both sides as usual.

It doesn't work that way because discussing the latest update is a big part of being a fan. Imagine if the vast majority of the fans did actually wait to play the first half until the second half came out. The relative smattering of feedback would come across as a lukewarm response to the devs, who would probably kick themselves for releasing an inferior product most people refuse to play. Meanwhile if large numbers of fans play the update immediately, that's good for feedback, but not much fun for the holdouts who will never really participate in the feedback for that portion of the game. The only way to avoid the issue altogether is to release the update in one piece as originally intended, but then the people who just want something new to play are stuck in the doldrums and the devs are left chewing their nails. Someone's ox is going to get gored here, we just have to hope it's the smallest, least productive one. (And, you know, not mine! )

As far as the whole thing fitting together seamlessly once the second part is out, well, maybe. It really depends on how well the two halves stand on their own. Ideally you'd want each half to have a rising action/peak/falling action structure with a good variety of character moments and plenty of sex, which may or may not work out well depending on how TD was planning it. You can try to make the first half more setup to to the second half's payoff, but that can be tricky lest it just feel like a frustrating tease in the meantime (and there will be considerable meantime). Conversely, you can try to add more material to flesh out both halves, but then you need to make sure it doesn't feel repetitive or tedious when you play through it in one go.

It's a tough balancing act and - crucially - TD originally balanced it to be played in one sitting. If TD thinks it would be viable to split them then I trust his judgement, but if he likewise thinks it would be optimal to play it all at once then I trust that even more. Admittedly, I'm an easy sell since I dislike the idea of focusing even more on Kathleen's stage act, but I'd like to think I could still appreciate the problem even the second half was more to my liking.

I say TD and Gil should just do what they consider the best play, at the end of the day they are the only ones that actually know how the story is looking so far for this upcoming update, and if it's worth being split or not.

On that we agree, but it seems clear they themselves are wrestling with what the best play is. We'll see what they decide; they still have a couple weeks to mull it over and see which option feels most comfortable.

 

[Turret]

I'm sorry but I don't see how splitting the update would damage the story. At the end of the day, the other half will release later on, and future people that play the game will not even notice it.

I already mentioned this, but releasing 1 half already, would result in getting feedback for the first half, boost morale, would remove the weight of worrying about taking too long on certain scenes. The main reason I want the update to be split, is because I feel like it'll lead to a better story overall. Even if some people might complain .

What would be the damage that breaking the update in half would do? It could lessen the impact of the whole exhibition for those reading the updates as soon as they release. I'm 100% sure I'd enjoy reading enhibition #3 in one big update more, than split in two, and have to wait a couple months to read the other half, but if I'm being honest, I don't think it'll be that big of a deal, there's also the concern of people forgetting what even happened last update because of the long time gap, so there's arguments for both sides as usual.

I say TD and Gil should just do what they consider the best play, at the end of the day they are the only ones that actually know how the story is looking so far for this upcoming update, and if it's worth being split or not.

Hi!
I agree with you that the update should be split. We should think about the impact of even more waiting time on the players not as invested and following the game as closely as we/patrons do.
If you look at other game threads, a waiting time of a year or more hurts the game no matter the quality and size of the update or the fanatism of the fans.
Take e.g. Eva Kiss, very loyal fans and at one time the patrons voted for not splitting an update up, when the question was asked split or not. The result was a waiting time (due to several reasons) for new content of roughly a year, maybe even a bit more. It must have seriously hurt, no matter the otakus of ORS, because since that update Eva is very keen on lowering the update interval again, even engaging more helpers. I doubt she does this on a whim.

There is simply a dev time span, size of update and intervall of updating, which should be halfway consistent and not too long apart. We know that PC updates are always meaty and the currently 7 months are close to the latest update intervals due to the increasing complexity of the chapters. So we can rest asured that part one has quite a lot of content to play through for us. Especially since there is obviously a fitting cut off point, going by what we know.
Part 2 of the update, which will need another 3-4 months, maybe more, is definitely also packed with content. If TD and GIL are unsure about the size of that part, they could "raise" it to a full update of 6-7 months, if need be.

But my main point stands, if the update interval gets too long, too inconsistent, the game suffers and a year or more is simply too long when it comes to software/games.

 

[torpedogoat]

The entire discussion about whether to split the coming update is way out of proportion by now. It's not exactly an instance of

You must be registered to see the links

but it's clearly driven by the same irrational motivation to discuss a detail to death not because it's so important but because everybody can understand it.

Guys, it's OK to participate in this discussion to feel you have a say in where this project is headed, but given how divided opinions are it's inevitable that a large part of the participants will see the opposite outcome of what they are arguing for implemented. Please try to be good losers and let things go. If you can't do this, it's not wise to even start participating.

 

[Discrepancy]

I'm going to quote myself:

... and I too prefer it to release only when the full exhibition done, but if it's divided I will play it as soon as it is released

I think this sentiment is probably shared by most of the full update "faction", we prefer to wait till it's all done but will play it whenever TD1900 and Gil decide and is released.

 

[helo138]

It doesn't work that way because discussing the latest update is a big part of being a fan. Imagine if the vast majority of the fans did actually wait to play the first half until the second half came out. The relative smattering of feedback would come across as a lukewarm response to the devs, who would probably kick themselves for releasing an inferior product most people refuse to play. Meanwhile if large numbers of fans play the update immediately, that's good for feedback, but not much fun for the holdouts who will never really participate in the feedback for that portion of the game. The only way to avoid the issue altogether is to release the update in one piece as originally intended, but then the people who just want something new to play are stuck in the doldrums and the devs are left chewing their nails. Someone's ox is going to get gored here, we just have to hope it's the smallest, least productive one. (And, you know, not mine! )

As far as the whole thing fitting together seamlessly once the second part is out, well, maybe. It really depends on how well the two halves stand on their own. Ideally you'd want each half to have a rising action/peak/falling action structure with a good variety of character moments and plenty of sex, which may or may not work out well depending on how TD was planning it. You can try to make the first half more setup to to the second half's payoff, but that can be tricky lest it just feel like a frustrating tease in the meantime (and there will be considerable meantime). Conversely, you can try to add more material to flesh out both halves, but then you need to make sure it doesn't feel repetitive or tedious when you play through it in one go.

It's a tough balancing act and - crucially - TD originally balanced it to be played in one sitting. If TD thinks it would be viable to split them then I trust his judgement, but if he likewise thinks it would be optimal to play it all at once then I trust that even more. Admittedly, I'm an easy sell since I dislike the idea of focusing even more on Kathleen's stage act, but I'd like to think I could still appreciate the problem even the second half was more to my liking.


On that we agree, but it seems clear they themselves are wrestling with what the best play is. We'll see what they decide; they still have a couple weeks to mull it over and see which option feels most comfortable.

Let me ask you what this" oh so great lead up" was for the first 3 exhibition scenes, which mandates to play this update in one sitting?
I think the first part is a great way of learning more about the club and its patreons and to "breath" the atmosphere. I do not see a strong connection to the exhibition portion itself. Maybe the upcoming update will be built differently and playing in one flow is always better, but I think you brush away other concerns, because you don´t want to play an update focused solely on the carnation show (same as myself not wanting to wait any longer, just hidding it better behind fancy words and arguments).
Y

 

[ename144]

Let me ask you what this" oh so great lead up" was for the first 3 exhibition scenes, which mandates to play this update in one sitting?
I think the first part is a great way of learning more about the club and its patreons and to "breath" the atmosphere. I do not see a strong connection to the exhibition portion itself. Maybe the upcoming update will be built differently and playing in one flow is always better, but I think you brush away other concerns, because you don´t want to play an update focused solely on the carnation show (same as myself not wanting to wait any longer, just hidding it better behind fancy words and arguments).
Y

As far as the first two Exhibitions, they were all done in one piece so it's not really an apples to apples comparison. That said, in the first one nearly all the sex was in the second half, which wouldn't make for a good split. The second Exhibition is better balanced in that regard, though that does depend on what paths you're on. But I still think some aspects benefited from the proximity, most notably Veronica, who goes from successfully defending Lucy to her lowest point when Kathleen busts out the giant spider to an intervention in the shower (plus a coda with the MC if you're so inclined). You could certainly play through her story in two pieces, but I think it would feel less like an arc and more like a really dark event that stands out from other things that happened.

And looking forward to Exhibition 3, I presume Felicia is going to have a lot of material throughout the night this time around. I can only speculate, but I think it would likewise benefit from being done in one go.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me here, but I'll admit I do get annoyed at your insistence anyone who disagrees with you is doing so disingenuously. We all know your preference by now, and I am willing to acknowledge there are potential upsides to it. Kindly grant the rest of us the same courtesy.

 

[UmbralKnight]

this is entire debate over splitting updates is an ugly can of worms
but it was in some ways inevitable

thankfully for the devs even going by the patreon polls (as someone posted above) 2/3rd of the current supporters want to wait for the full update and only 1/3rd wants to split the update into 2

but had it been something close like 40/50 it would only further divide the fanbase and create factions that are going to be at odds with eachother for months and potentially spiral out of control

however I do suspect as the story progresses there might be more such divide within the fanbase

currently people are split over length of the update
and In the future they could be fighting over one character getting more or better content than the other as the story progresses near the final week of the ingame exhibition

that kind of factionalism doesn't go away and will turn ugly very quickly

once main characters start getting eliminated or some other PERMANENT changes happen as consequence of your choices

then from that point you can always count certain percent of the fanbase being at odds with the devs and rest of the fanbase with each following update

It would be really interesting to see how all this ends up inthe following years

 

[helo138]

As far as the first two Exhibitions, they were all done in one piece so it's not really an apples to apples comparison. That said, in the first one nearly all the sex was in the second half, which wouldn't make for a good split. The second Exhibition is better balanced in that regard, though that does depend on what paths you're on. But I still think some aspects benefited from the proximity, most notably Veronica, who goes from successfully defending Lucy to her lowest point when Kathleen busts out the giant spider to an intervention in the shower (plus a coda with the MC if you're so inclined). You could certainly play through her story in two pieces, but I think it would feel less like an arc and more like a really dark event that stands out from other things that happened.

And looking forward to Exhibition 3, I presume Felicia is going to have a lot of material throughout the night this time around. I can only speculate, but I think it would likewise benefit from being done in one go.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me here, but I'll admit I do get annoyed at your insistence anyone who disagrees with you is doing so disingenuously. We all know your preference by now, and I am willing to acknowledge there are potential upsides to it. Kindly grant the rest of us the same courtesy.

I am also tired of this debate, so lets agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Kameri]

I am also tired of this debate, so lets agree to disagree and move on.

Yeah, I just hope the devs would quickly say, ‘Here’s what we’re doing, and that’s final,’ and move on. Until this vagueness clears up, people are going to keep talking about it.

 

[onknight]

Martin Jeff have released the a teaser and their latest update to the patreons

‘Chapter 4 Up 6 Preview (10)’ and 2 more

• 
  
• 
  Mutt & Jeff (via Patreon) s
  I follow their posts but I'm not subscriber and I wonder what's going to happen when Mr Ford finds out his wife as part of the contest and she's now a member of this Allah guard of Desire
  

 

[Darreau91]

The porn gods have spoken. The poll for waiting is at 69 percent on patreon.

 

[seniorboop]

For such a high-quality AVN seeing people genuinely argue for a wait while the dev sits at 1.2k patrons has me confused.

I wouldn't bother posting this if they were at least north of 3k.

I can only imagine the amount of lost leads that bounced after seeing their update timelines. It kills me the amount of people that fail to consider this and set good devs on the path of a plateau. Their patrons will remain their patrons whether they split it or not, but the potential supporter that looks at their timeline and is turned away because of it will never offer their support to begin with. Let me repeat in plain terms: the bag from current supporters is already secured, taking even longer to produce an update only ensures that bag is the only bag they'll have for however long it takes for the non-split update to drop.

These devs in particular are putting in entirely too much high-quality work for the comparatively low support they're receiving and I just can't see how anyone arguing in good faith can't see the net loss in failing to capitalize on two post-update support surges in comparison to one still months out. Although harder to track, this also doesn't account for the residual benefits of prolonging the exposure potential supporters have to their product through shortening their update timelines.

Going to drop this here so people are forced to actually look at this shit:




How is this even a discussion? How can anyone pro-wait consider that to be in the devs' best interest? Is it a lack of trust in their ability to deliver at a high quality if split? Looking at this from a mostly financial point of view I don't understand the logic of being pro-wait.

The only con I can see is in ignoring the outcome of the poll in favor of a split. Polling it was a terrible decision and there's an argument to be made that they bound themselves to not splitting the second they published it. A lesson to be learned regardless.

 

[Discrepancy]

For such a high-quality AVN seeing people genuinely argue for a wait while the dev sits at 1.2k patrons has me confused.

I wouldn't bother posting this if they were at least north of 3k.

I can only imagine the amount of lost leads that bounced after seeing their update timelines. It kills me the amount of people that fail to consider this and set good devs on the path of a plateau. Their patrons will remain their patrons whether they split it or not, but the potential supporter that looks at their timeline and is turned away because of it will never offer their support to begin with. Let me repeat in plain terms: the bag from current supporters is already secured, taking even longer to produce an update only ensures that bag is the only bag they'll have for however long it takes for the non-split update to drop.

These devs in particular are putting in entirely too much high-quality work for the comparatively low support they're receiving and I just can't see how anyone arguing in good faith can't see the net loss in failing to capitalize on two post-update support surges in comparison to one still months out. Although harder to track, this also doesn't account for the residual benefits of prolonging the exposure potential supporters have to their product through shortening their update timelines.

Going to drop this here so people are forced to actually look at this shit:

View attachment 5119844
View attachment 5119860

How is this even a discussion? How can anyone pro-wait consider that to be in the devs' best interest? Is it a lack of trust in their ability to deliver at a high quality if split? Looking at this from a mostly financial point of view I don't understand the logic of being pro-wait.

The only con I can see is in ignoring the outcome of the poll in favor of a split. Polling it was a terrible decision and there's an argument to be made that they bound themselves to not splitting the second they published it. A lesson to be learned regardless.

If you have access to this data pretty sure TD1900 and Gil have access to it too, so don't know what's your point, the decision is theirs, and if they decide to "lose money" is because they think the update will be better if it's only delivered on the "complete" form, they won't "lose money" cause some people here on F95 or even on their patreon said they rather wait

 

[seniorboop]

If you have access to this data pretty sure TD1900 and Gil have access to it too, so don't know what's your point, the decision is theirs, and if they decide to "lose money" is because they think the update will be better if it's only delivered on the "complete" form, they won't "lose money" cause some people here on F95 or even on their patreon said they rather wait

"lose money" is a term you're injecting into my post. I did not state and I did not imply the words you're putting into my mouth.

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If you have access to this data pretty sure TD1900 and Gil have access to it too, so don't know what's your point

To imply that their access to similar metrics guarantees that they'll reach the most profitable conclusion 100% of the time is asinine

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

To imply that their access to similar metrics guarantees that they'll reach the most profitable conclusion 100% of the time is asinine

No more asinine than to decide profits is the only or the most important metric TD and GIL follow when deciding about when to release the game update and in which format (split day event or full event).