VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Discrepancy]

I'm going to quote myself:

... and I too prefer it to release only when the full exhibition done, but if it's divided I will play it as soon as it is released

I think this sentiment is probably shared by most of the full update "faction", we prefer to wait till it's all done but will play it whenever TD1900 and Gil decide and is released.

 

[helo138]

It doesn't work that way because discussing the latest update is a big part of being a fan. Imagine if the vast majority of the fans did actually wait to play the first half until the second half came out. The relative smattering of feedback would come across as a lukewarm response to the devs, who would probably kick themselves for releasing an inferior product most people refuse to play. Meanwhile if large numbers of fans play the update immediately, that's good for feedback, but not much fun for the holdouts who will never really participate in the feedback for that portion of the game. The only way to avoid the issue altogether is to release the update in one piece as originally intended, but then the people who just want something new to play are stuck in the doldrums and the devs are left chewing their nails. Someone's ox is going to get gored here, we just have to hope it's the smallest, least productive one. (And, you know, not mine! )

As far as the whole thing fitting together seamlessly once the second part is out, well, maybe. It really depends on how well the two halves stand on their own. Ideally you'd want each half to have a rising action/peak/falling action structure with a good variety of character moments and plenty of sex, which may or may not work out well depending on how TD was planning it. You can try to make the first half more setup to to the second half's payoff, but that can be tricky lest it just feel like a frustrating tease in the meantime (and there will be considerable meantime). Conversely, you can try to add more material to flesh out both halves, but then you need to make sure it doesn't feel repetitive or tedious when you play through it in one go.

It's a tough balancing act and - crucially - TD originally balanced it to be played in one sitting. If TD thinks it would be viable to split them then I trust his judgement, but if he likewise thinks it would be optimal to play it all at once then I trust that even more. Admittedly, I'm an easy sell since I dislike the idea of focusing even more on Kathleen's stage act, but I'd like to think I could still appreciate the problem even the second half was more to my liking.


On that we agree, but it seems clear they themselves are wrestling with what the best play is. We'll see what they decide; they still have a couple weeks to mull it over and see which option feels most comfortable.

Let me ask you what this" oh so great lead up" was for the first 3 exhibition scenes, which mandates to play this update in one sitting?
I think the first part is a great way of learning more about the club and its patreons and to "breath" the atmosphere. I do not see a strong connection to the exhibition portion itself. Maybe the upcoming update will be built differently and playing in one flow is always better, but I think you brush away other concerns, because you don´t want to play an update focused solely on the carnation show (same as myself not wanting to wait any longer, just hidding it better behind fancy words and arguments).
Y

 

[ename144]

Let me ask you what this" oh so great lead up" was for the first 3 exhibition scenes, which mandates to play this update in one sitting?
I think the first part is a great way of learning more about the club and its patreons and to "breath" the atmosphere. I do not see a strong connection to the exhibition portion itself. Maybe the upcoming update will be built differently and playing in one flow is always better, but I think you brush away other concerns, because you don´t want to play an update focused solely on the carnation show (same as myself not wanting to wait any longer, just hidding it better behind fancy words and arguments).
Y

As far as the first two Exhibitions, they were all done in one piece so it's not really an apples to apples comparison. That said, in the first one nearly all the sex was in the second half, which wouldn't make for a good split. The second Exhibition is better balanced in that regard, though that does depend on what paths you're on. But I still think some aspects benefited from the proximity, most notably Veronica, who goes from successfully defending Lucy to her lowest point when Kathleen busts out the giant spider to an intervention in the shower (plus a coda with the MC if you're so inclined). You could certainly play through her story in two pieces, but I think it would feel less like an arc and more like a really dark event that stands out from other things that happened.

And looking forward to Exhibition 3, I presume Felicia is going to have a lot of material throughout the night this time around. I can only speculate, but I think it would likewise benefit from being done in one go.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me here, but I'll admit I do get annoyed at your insistence anyone who disagrees with you is doing so disingenuously. We all know your preference by now, and I am willing to acknowledge there are potential upsides to it. Kindly grant the rest of us the same courtesy.

 

[UmbralKnight]

this is entire debate over splitting updates is an ugly can of worms
but it was in some ways inevitable

thankfully for the devs even going by the patreon polls (as someone posted above) 2/3rd of the current supporters want to wait for the full update and only 1/3rd wants to split the update into 2

but had it been something close like 40/50 it would only further divide the fanbase and create factions that are going to be at odds with eachother for months and potentially spiral out of control

however I do suspect as the story progresses there might be more such divide within the fanbase

currently people are split over length of the update
and In the future they could be fighting over one character getting more or better content than the other as the story progresses near the final week of the ingame exhibition

that kind of factionalism doesn't go away and will turn ugly very quickly

once main characters start getting eliminated or some other PERMANENT changes happen as consequence of your choices

then from that point you can always count certain percent of the fanbase being at odds with the devs and rest of the fanbase with each following update

It would be really interesting to see how all this ends up inthe following years

 

[helo138]

As far as the first two Exhibitions, they were all done in one piece so it's not really an apples to apples comparison. That said, in the first one nearly all the sex was in the second half, which wouldn't make for a good split. The second Exhibition is better balanced in that regard, though that does depend on what paths you're on. But I still think some aspects benefited from the proximity, most notably Veronica, who goes from successfully defending Lucy to her lowest point when Kathleen busts out the giant spider to an intervention in the shower (plus a coda with the MC if you're so inclined). You could certainly play through her story in two pieces, but I think it would feel less like an arc and more like a really dark event that stands out from other things that happened.

And looking forward to Exhibition 3, I presume Felicia is going to have a lot of material throughout the night this time around. I can only speculate, but I think it would likewise benefit from being done in one go.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me here, but I'll admit I do get annoyed at your insistence anyone who disagrees with you is doing so disingenuously. We all know your preference by now, and I am willing to acknowledge there are potential upsides to it. Kindly grant the rest of us the same courtesy.

I am also tired of this debate, so lets agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Khan merry]

I am also tired of this debate, so lets agree to disagree and move on.

Yeah, I just hope the devs would quickly say, ‘Here’s what we’re doing, and that’s final,’ and move on. Until this vagueness clears up, people are going to keep talking about it.

 

[onknight]

Martin Jeff have released the a teaser and their latest update to the patreons

‘Chapter 4 Up 6 Preview (10)’ and 2 more

• 
  
• 
  Mutt & Jeff (via Patreon) s
  I follow their posts but I'm not subscriber and I wonder what's going to happen when Mr Ford finds out his wife as part of the contest and she's now a member of this Allah guard of Desire
  

 

[Darreau91]

The porn gods have spoken. The poll for waiting is at 69 percent on patreon.

 

[seniorboop]

For such a high-quality AVN seeing people genuinely argue for a wait while the dev sits at 1.2k patrons has me confused.

I wouldn't bother posting this if they were at least north of 3k.

I can only imagine the amount of lost leads that bounced after seeing their update timelines. It kills me the amount of people that fail to consider this and set good devs on the path of a plateau. Their patrons will remain their patrons whether they split it or not, but the potential supporter that looks at their timeline and is turned away because of it will never offer their support to begin with. Let me repeat in plain terms: the bag from current supporters is already secured, taking even longer to produce an update only ensures that bag is the only bag they'll have for however long it takes for the non-split update to drop.

These devs in particular are putting in entirely too much high-quality work for the comparatively low support they're receiving and I just can't see how anyone arguing in good faith can't see the net loss in failing to capitalize on two post-update support surges in comparison to one still months out. Although harder to track, this also doesn't account for the residual benefits of prolonging the exposure potential supporters have to their product through shortening their update timelines.

Going to drop this here so people are forced to actually look at this shit:




How is this even a discussion? How can anyone pro-wait consider that to be in the devs' best interest? Is it a lack of trust in their ability to deliver at a high quality if split? Looking at this from a mostly financial point of view I don't understand the logic of being pro-wait.

The only con I can see is in ignoring the outcome of the poll in favor of a split. Polling it was a terrible decision and there's an argument to be made that they bound themselves to not splitting the second they published it. A lesson to be learned regardless.

 

[Discrepancy]

For such a high-quality AVN seeing people genuinely argue for a wait while the dev sits at 1.2k patrons has me confused.

I wouldn't bother posting this if they were at least north of 3k.

I can only imagine the amount of lost leads that bounced after seeing their update timelines. It kills me the amount of people that fail to consider this and set good devs on the path of a plateau. Their patrons will remain their patrons whether they split it or not, but the potential supporter that looks at their timeline and is turned away because of it will never offer their support to begin with. Let me repeat in plain terms: the bag from current supporters is already secured, taking even longer to produce an update only ensures that bag is the only bag they'll have for however long it takes for the non-split update to drop.

These devs in particular are putting in entirely too much high-quality work for the comparatively low support they're receiving and I just can't see how anyone arguing in good faith can't see the net loss in failing to capitalize on two post-update support surges in comparison to one still months out. Although harder to track, this also doesn't account for the residual benefits of prolonging the exposure potential supporters have to their product through shortening their update timelines.

Going to drop this here so people are forced to actually look at this shit:

View attachment 5119844
View attachment 5119860

How is this even a discussion? How can anyone pro-wait consider that to be in the devs' best interest? Is it a lack of trust in their ability to deliver at a high quality if split? Looking at this from a mostly financial point of view I don't understand the logic of being pro-wait.

The only con I can see is in ignoring the outcome of the poll in favor of a split. Polling it was a terrible decision and there's an argument to be made that they bound themselves to not splitting the second they published it. A lesson to be learned regardless.

If you have access to this data pretty sure TD1900 and Gil have access to it too, so don't know what's your point, the decision is theirs, and if they decide to "lose money" is because they think the update will be better if it's only delivered on the "complete" form, they won't "lose money" cause some people here on F95 or even on their patreon said they rather wait

 

[seniorboop]

If you have access to this data pretty sure TD1900 and Gil have access to it too, so don't know what's your point, the decision is theirs, and if they decide to "lose money" is because they think the update will be better if it's only delivered on the "complete" form, they won't "lose money" cause some people here on F95 or even on their patreon said they rather wait

"lose money" is a term you're injecting into my post. I did not state and I did not imply the words you're putting into my mouth.

You must be registered to see the links

If you have access to this data pretty sure TD1900 and Gil have access to it too, so don't know what's your point

To imply that their access to similar metrics guarantees that they'll reach the most profitable conclusion 100% of the time is asinine

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

To imply that their access to similar metrics guarantees that they'll reach the most profitable conclusion 100% of the time is asinine

No more asinine than to decide profits is the only or the most important metric TD and GIL follow when deciding about when to release the game update and in which format (split day event or full event).

 

[Ungawa]

We want a split/full day of content!

So what you're telling me when I start over, I got 3 exhibitions to go through and build up along with finding all the content and restarting from the beginning?

...

...

;_;

 

[Discrepancy]

"lose money" is a term you're injecting into my post. I did not state and I did not imply the words you're putting into my mouth.

You must be registered to see the links

To imply that their access to similar metrics guarantees that they'll reach the most profitable conclusion 100% of the time is asinine

I used "lose money" as a if they release the update soon they will make more money, if they release later they will make less money, if this wasn't what your graph and post was inferring then let me know better because that was what I grasped from it.

If TD and Gil decide to release the update later is because they decide it, not us, the poll is to gauge opinion isn't like mandatory for their decision.

About the asinine thing, they have your data and more I'm sure, if they decide against releasing sooner is because they think their vision for the update is more important that the finances probably.

 

[seniorboop]

No more asinine than to believe profits is the only or the most important metric TD and GIL follow when deciding about when to release the game update and in which format (split day event or full event).

Commit. Do you believe they'll happily take payments in vibes? Do they have that privilege as a dev duo at 1.2k patrons 5 years in? Should they not consider their growth as paramount? What is your actual belief, you're dancing

 

[prpa]

For such a high-quality AVN seeing people genuinely argue for a wait while the dev sits at 1.2k patrons has me confused.

I wouldn't bother posting this if they were at least north of 3k.

I can only imagine the amount of lost leads that bounced after seeing their update timelines. It kills me the amount of people that fail to consider this and set good devs on the path of a plateau. Their patrons will remain their patrons whether they split it or not, but the potential supporter that looks at their timeline and is turned away because of it will never offer their support to begin with. Let me repeat in plain terms: the bag from current supporters is already secured, taking even longer to produce an update only ensures that bag is the only bag they'll have for however long it takes for the non-split update to drop.

These devs in particular are putting in entirely too much high-quality work for the comparatively low support they're receiving and I just can't see how anyone arguing in good faith can't see the net loss in failing to capitalize on two post-update support surges in comparison to one still months out. Although harder to track, this also doesn't account for the residual benefits of prolonging the exposure potential supporters have to their product through shortening their update timelines.

Going to drop this here so people are forced to actually look at this shit:

View attachment 5119844
View attachment 5119860

How is this even a discussion? How can anyone pro-wait consider that to be in the devs' best interest? Is it a lack of trust in their ability to deliver at a high quality if split? Looking at this from a mostly financial point of view I don't understand the logic of being pro-wait.

The only con I can see is in ignoring the outcome of the poll in favor of a split. Polling it was a terrible decision and there's an argument to be made that they bound themselves to not splitting the second they published it. A lesson to be learned regardless.

That graph you posted proves absolutely nothing. Go check other games on Patreon, there's always a spike in activity whenever a new update is released.

Yes, this game isn’t as popular as it should be, but that's not because of the long wait between updates. If you look at other games with even longer gaps between releases, you'll see that this holds true. I'm just guessing, but I think most people are hesitant to try this game because of the tags. Vanilla players might avoid it due to the more extreme content, NTR fans won't be interested because there's no NTR, etc. It's a shame, really, because the game is a masterpiece.

As I said before, I'm totally fine with waiting, but if it's in the developer's best interest to release it in parts, I won't complain, and I doubt others here or on Patreon will either.

 

[seniorboop]

That graph you posted proves absolutely nothing. Go check other games on Patreon, there's always a spike in activity whenever a new update is released.

I just can't see how anyone arguing in good faith can't see the net loss in failing to capitalize on two post-update support surges in comparison to one still months out.

Don't know why I broke my own rule and wasted my time

 

[lustforsex]

Honestly, I didn't want to continue this discussion after the Kameri post, but I would add that there are 2 people working on the game, which means that you can safely divide the subscribers by two if you want to compare similar projects by popularity and success.

I just threw this information in for further discussion, if someone didn't think about it

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Commit. Do you believe they'll happily take payments in vibes? Do they have that privilege as a dev duo at 1.2k patrons 5 years in? Should they not consider their growth as paramount? What is your actual belief, you're dancing

Payment in vibes? What are you talking about? Do you think supporters are leaving or that 1.2 thousands is too little as a indie developer?

Since you like graphs so much and seems to have some obsession with profits here is one for you:

A steady increase over the course of 3 years with peaks around the time there were releases.

 

[Darreau91]

For such a high-quality AVN seeing people genuinely argue for a wait while the dev sits at 1.2k patrons has me confused.

I wouldn't bother posting this if they were at least north of 3k.

I can only imagine the amount of lost leads that bounced after seeing their update timelines. It kills me the amount of people that fail to consider this and set good devs on the path of a plateau. Their patrons will remain their patrons whether they split it or not, but the potential supporter that looks at their timeline and is turned away because of it will never offer their support to begin with. Let me repeat in plain terms: the bag from current supporters is already secured, taking even longer to produce an update only ensures that bag is the only bag they'll have for however long it takes for the non-split update to drop.

These devs in particular are putting in entirely too much high-quality work for the comparatively low support they're receiving and I just can't see how anyone arguing in good faith can't see the net loss in failing to capitalize on two post-update support surges in comparison to one still months out. Although harder to track, this also doesn't account for the residual benefits of prolonging the exposure potential supporters have to their product through shortening their update timelines.

Going to drop this here so people are forced to actually look at this shit:

View attachment 5119844
View attachment 5119860

How is this even a discussion? How can anyone pro-wait consider that to be in the devs' best interest? Is it a lack of trust in their ability to deliver at a high quality if split? Looking at this from a mostly financial point of view I don't understand the logic of being pro-wait.

The only con I can see is in ignoring the outcome of the poll in favor of a split. Polling it was a terrible decision and there's an argument to be made that they bound themselves to not splitting the second they published it. A lesson to be learned regardless.

My 3 dollars a month got me feeling like a king of pro waiters. Devs revenue woes...



When the solution already exists: