VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Ozymandias037]

Not a fan of Rocky Mountain oysters either, I assume? Kinda funny though that they make the distinction between fresh and cooled sperm as if it tastes so much better on tap...when the opposite is probably more true. Cold things are less flavorful. The odor is not as pungent anymore as well since some of the components responsible are volatile. Plus even the thickest load has become runny at this point. People who drink their egg whites raw in the morning are half way there.

I mean... Like most people who grew up in Colorado I was pranked by someone at some point and fed Rocky Mountain Oysters before I knew what they were. And like, no, I'm not much of a fan, but I think the squick about that only comes in retrospect. I think "cover it in batter and throw it in the deep fryer" is one of the most transformative culinary superpowers out there, right along with "drown it in garlic butter and herbs."

That said, I have absolutely no qualms in admitting that my thought process completely stopped at "donkey semen" and barely even registered "piss." Your points about texture and flavor were far, far outside the realm of my consideration

 

[lustforsex]

I see what you're getting at and I agree that why the MC is watching those videos is the crux of the matter. Where I disagree is with the notion that *watching* the videos again is necessary to answer the question. I don't think it is, at least not directly.

I see the decision to watch or delete the videos as effectively the answer to the question all by itself. An MC who deletes them has concluded that he was watching them for the wrong reasons (possibly to help cope with his confusion and uncertainty over how to address his mother's past), but now that everything is in the open there is no need to see that 'filth' again. On the other hand, and MC who watches the video again has concluded that there is *something* of value in those videos and thus wants to embrace the opportunity to find out what it is, regardless of the cost.

Neither choice is wrong in a gaming sense, they just lead to different outcomes. I frame the decision to delete the videos as the "good" choice because that's how the MC's internal dialog has framed his more empathic side throughout the game. But ultimately it's two sides of the same coin, the choice of what to do with the videos is a metaphor for who we want our MC to be in microcosm.

Obviously in the real world it's almost never that simple, but this is a work of interactive fiction, where external actions tend to be more tightly tied with internal struggles. That's what I'm expecting, anyway!

Probably the closest description of what the real reason for watching these videos is shown in the conversation with Mina after the scene in the hotel. However, this conversation will not happen if you don't follow her path.

Most players will likely choose not to delete the videos simply because they don't want to miss the scene
And as you mentioned, this choice may be more tragic for Edwin, but there is also a chance that this choice will stop him from floating in uncertainty about both Victoria's motives and his own, possibly incorrect, beliefs.

We also need to take into account that Vicky decided to tell Edwin about her past not of her own free will (thanks to Grace). Edwin wants to have a heart-to-heart talk with her about it, but does she want to...? It all comes down to motives.

 

[Kiyah]

I mean sure, I'm not saying it's impossible for him to be tender. I'm saying that the way he obsesses over the videos of her, the way he reacts when he meets Donovan, mixed with a more cruel leaning MC playthrough, would lead to him either calling out her for "enjoying it", as she seems to with Donovan, or perhaps the fact that she actually mentions her son in that video, he could say she was using him as an excuse to engage in her fantasies, or something. I don't know, it just feels like there should be more of a choice there depending which way he leans. I have two main playthroughs for this game, that I labeled "kind" and "cruel", for simplicity's sake. My kind MC would forgive her instantly, makes total sense. My more cruel MC? Not the way he would act, or at least, I don't think so. I don't know, forgiving her feels like it could be a major game choice that was just taken away. But again, that is just my opinion!

That's precissely it, he obsesses over the videos. It's not lust (regardless of the level of assholery/sadism the MC may have), it's guilt.
Edwin feels guilty (to me, at least) because his mother had to resort to recording porn as an extra source of cash, not because they needed it to survive (like Rosalind) but because she wanted to provide extra comfort to the MC (not having to move to a smaller and cheaper house, for example).
Watching the videos gives to me vibes of penance, of scratching a barely scabbed wound. I could see the MC breaking should Victoria somehow ended in the club performing and really letting loose with her (dunno what would happen to Kathleen or Chuck afterwards, however, since those two are the ones who like to play mindgames and own others...), but that would be, I think, a Bad End (specially since Killian still has a platonic fixation with Victoria, thanks to how much of an asshole his mother is to him and others, making it quite easy to displace feelings of motherly love to Victoria).

Until this point, the game presents a story that is quite tight (aside from Felicia's painter exhibition, which considering who will show up for the weeking feels more like an extra layer of deception), and as such I think inserting a "fallen mother Victoria" route would complicate things needlesly (at least for now, once the whole game is ready, extra branches could be added).

 

[UmbralKnight]

I suppose I misspoke.

no , it's perfectly alright
In your play through it was that that force feeding scene which made you side with Veronica more
for me it was the latter scene
both are vaild arguments for supporting Veronica

didn't imagine anyone in that audience would speak up in her defense when Kathy chose her punishment. The degradation is all part of what the club is about.

True
but she doesn't understand/realise that
after all she literally tried to unionise the other carnations just a week later during the conversation in the diner

she is kinda of naive in that regard

 

[Ozymandias037]

That's precissely it, he obsesses over the videos. It's not lust (regardless of the level of assholery/sadism the MC may have), it's guilt.
Edwin feels guilty (to me, at least) because his mother had to resort to recording porn as an extra source of cash, not because they needed it to survive (like Rosalind) but because she wanted to provide extra comfort to the MC (not having to move to a smaller and cheaper house, for example).
Watching the videos gives to me vibes of penance, of scratching a barely scabbed wound. I could see the MC breaking should Victoria somehow ended in the club performing and really letting loose with her (dunno what would happen to Kathleen or Chuck afterwards, however, since those two are the ones who like to play mindgames and own others...), but that would be, I think, a Bad End (specially since Killian still has a platonic fixation with Victoria, thanks to how much of an asshole his mother is to him and others, making it quite easy to displace feelings of motherly love to Victoria).

Until this point, the game presents a story that is quite tight (aside from Felicia's painter exhibition, which considering who will show up for the weeking feels more like an extra layer of deception), and as such I think inserting a "fallen mother Victoria" route would complicate things needlesly (at least for now, once the whole game is ready, extra branches could be added).

I think you're on to something, or at the very least you have a very good theory. Specifically, the phrase "scratching a barely scabbed would" jumped out and resonated hard for me. That's exactly what it feels like. I don't know if Edwin himself is aware of why he keeps watching those videos, but he certainly knows it can't be good for him, but he does it anyway. Repeatedly, for years. Whatever the motivation (guilt, Oedipus complex, a struggle to understand, or whatever) there is absolutely a feeling of self-flagellation to it. He isn't doing this because it's fun, but rather because he is, for whatever reason, compelled to. It's a very unhealthy thing. I mean, I guess that goes without saying, but still.

I also think it's important to remember that Victoria's choices and Edwin's feelings and reactions about it are absolutely core to his character and his emotional journey. This is, after all, "a tale of motherly love." Rose and Grace and Victoria and their relationships with Edwin and Ian and others are all in this story for reasons. They're all different versions of "mother" and it's expressed and explored in different ways. TD has commented here about this multiple times. Hell, even Lucy and Felicia and other characters play into this central unifying theme.

I've said a lot about this before and I don't want to repeat myself, but I am constantly amazed at the narrative richness and complexity of this game. I keep coming back to this game and this thread because the story and the writing really make me want to peel whole thing apart and look at how it all works. The motivations and choices of the characters, the questions and feelings this game evokes in me as a player... it hits in ways most things don't. It makes me want to actually use all those analytical tools I picked up in English class. "Literary merit" is far, far down the list of things I generally expect in a porn game, but this one has it in spades. It's very much an S tier example of the "novel" part of AVN.

...Don't get me wrong, though, I'm ten million percent here for the porn part too (mostly, even). I'd be a liar if I said otherwise.

 

[ename144]

Probably the closest description of what the real reason for watching these videos is shown in the conversation with Mina after the scene in the hotel. However, this conversation will not happen if you don't follow her path.

Most players will likely choose not to delete the videos simply because they don't want to miss the scene
And as you mentioned, this choice may be more tragic for Edwin, but there is also a chance that this choice will stop him from floating in uncertainty about both Victoria's motives and his own, possibly incorrect, beliefs.

We also need to take into account that Vicky decided to tell Edwin about her past not of her own free will (thanks to Grace). Edwin wants to have a heart-to-heart talk with her about it, but does she want to...? It all comes down to motives.

I mean, I would expect most players to play both options on different save paths.

As far as Victoria wanting to tell the MC, I'd say she's doing so of her own free will even if it isn't the choice she'd make in a vacuum. Grace forced her hand, but only in the sense that Vicky coming clean to the MC is her way of defying Grace; I very much doubt forcing this reckoning was Grace's goal. Victoria (likely) had a way to keep her secret but chose to prioritize something else instead.

Given how much this game plays around in the grey margins of consent, I'd tend to consider this a voluntary act on Victoria's part.

 

[lustforsex]

I mean, I would expect most players to play both options on different save paths.

As far as Victoria wanting to tell the MC, I'd say she's doing so of her own free will even if it isn't the choice she'd make in a vacuum. Grace forced her hand, but only in the sense that Vicky coming clean to the MC is her way of defying Grace; I very much doubt forcing this reckoning was Grace's goal. Victoria (likely) had a way to keep her secret but chose to prioritize something else instead.

Given how much this game plays around in the grey margins of consent, I'd tend to consider this a voluntary act on Victoria's part.

This goes without saying. But the 2 major choices (confess to Ian and delete the videos) that TD gives us at the very end of the update give the player the opportunity to think about their choices in their main playthrough and not be guided by "I'll first see what these choices lead to, and then choose the "good" option".

This illustrates that the MC's instinct to delete the tapes once the truth was revealed was the right one.

For Edwin, the truth hasn't yet been revealed. Victoria's attempt to confess to her past, which he has known for many years, can hardly be called the truth. If you go by instinct, as you mentioned earlier, then the "good" choice for him would be to lie to Ian. Edwin himself feels this:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

After this, Ian directly says that they need to ask Vicky herself what happened between her and Grace. For my main playthrough, where Ian goes down the Introspection path, I'm not going to lie to him. Is it wrong for Vicky? Absolutely. But in this case, Edwin needs someone he can rely on no matter what. He's already been going down this path alone too much.
Even Victoria herself wanted to confess her past to both of them and there are hints about this.

As for Grace, I have vague doubts that she even thought about the option where her blackmail would completely backfired and this would turn Ian against her even more. And this is despite the fact that Victoria herself told her this to her face:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

This is exactly what awaits Grace in my main playthrough

As for her "voluntary act" - I completely disagree. I think in the last update it's not for nothing that the topic of Victoria wanting to sell the house is touched upon (as Veronica said, Vicky wants to turn the page in her life).

I'm starting to think more and more that Edwin isn't just a sadist by nature, he's an empathetic sadist

 

[Maccabbee]

This goes without saying. But the 2 major choices (confess to Ian and delete the videos) that TD gives us at the very end of the update give the player the opportunity to think about their choices in their main playthrough and not be guided by "I'll first see what these choices lead to, and then choose the "good" option".

For Edwin, the truth hasn't yet been revealed. Victoria's attempt to confess to her past, which he has known for many years, can hardly be called the truth. If you go by instinct, as you mentioned earlier, then the "good" choice for him would be to lie to Ian. Edwin himself feels this:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

After this, Ian directly says that they need to ask Vicky herself what happened between her and Grace. For my main playthrough, where Ian goes down the Introspection path, I'm not going to lie to him. Is it wrong for Vicky? Absolutely. But in this case, Edwin needs someone he can rely on no matter what. He's already been going down this path alone too much.
Even Victoria herself wanted to confess her past to both of them and there are hints about this.

As for Grace, I have vague doubts that she even thought about the option where her blackmail would completely backfired and this would turn Ian against her even more. And this is despite the fact that Victoria herself told her this to her face:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

This is exactly what awaits Grace in my main playthrough

As for her "voluntary act" - I completely disagree. I think in the last update it's not for nothing that the topic of Victoria wanting to sell the house is touched upon (as Veronica said, Vicky wants to turn the page in her life).

I'm starting to think more and more that Edwin isn't just a sadist by nature, he's an empathetic sadist

I agree with this (based on my Maintaining my Friendship with Introspective Ian, sadistic but caring/good MC run) 100%. I am also out of reactions.

 

[lustforsex]

I also want to point out that TD and GIL did a good job with the music that accompanies the players' choices. It's easy to confuse the player that way

 

[DETROIT123_io]

Guys rememeber when the debt collecter oliver went to Rosalind's house in week 3 part 3 , we saw her house was messed up . And during dialogue , He almost smacked Rose in the face . So did Rose got beaten or slapped before we came in ? What happened in the house before that
?

 

[se20299]

The Victoria plotline could go in so many directions. Ian's reaction will obvioulsy hinge on his introspection. Will he be mature enough to accept Vicky as she is or will he resent her for being just another whore when he truly loved her. Edwin knows Ian better than anyone, and he knows Ian's reaction will more than likely be negative, that's why he desperately tells him Victoria is still the same as ever. Also, when the penny drops that Grace blackmailed Vicky and that Chuck used to torment her, Ian's whole world will turn upside down, more than it already was.


As for Edwin, he's also not very eager to hear it from the horse's mouth, despite wanting the "truth". His flimsy cope of "she sacrificed herself for me" is slowly crumbling, especially since the Donovan scene all but spelled it out that Vicky did porn first and foremost because she wanted to. Donovan even calls her out on it, as no woman will do 4 scenes and come back for more unless she's into it. Vicky's a natural whore, and Donny quickly seems to peg her as one. Victoria said it herself, she didn't mind doing gangbangs, but the lack of production values and amateutism bothered her. Edwin's visceral disgust at meeting Donovan shows us he's not nearly ready for the truth.


My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.


Edwin's entire worldview revolves around his mother's "sacrifice" for him and his guilt and self flaggelation because of it. He sees what his mother did as humiliating and shameful, and he believes he's the cause of that because his mom wanted to keep him comfortable. While that's partially true, the reason he feels so guilty and he constantly rewatches his mother's tapes is because he percieves women having sex as inherently negative and humiliating, and him being at the club only amplifies that perception. I see the choice of "delete/keep the tapes" as Edwin metaphorically forgiving both Vicky and himself and letting go of his obsession. Or alternatively reaching a moral event horizon where is obsession only gets deeper the closer he is to the "truth".

As for Vicky selling the house, she's been extremely lonely since Edwin moved out for college, especially in a big, empty house full of bittersweet memories. She's been trying out dating apps, but she didn't have much luck besides a few hookups, as she admitted to Ian. So she's probably trying to turn a new leaf and begin anew. As for Edwin's negative reaction, it's probably the realization that he's been falling out of touch with his mom since he started working at the Club, and the fact that his mom seemingly wants to move on from their house he grew up in and all the memories they had together, possibly the memory of his father, too. Most importanly, it's a painful reminder that they're slowly drifting apart, and things are changing in both of their lives, and Edwin never got to pay off the debt he thinks he owes her.

Mind you, this is all my speculation, and I'm bored at work so I'm writing this wall of text.

 

[slightchance]

So did Rose got beaten or slapped before we came in ?

"Did he hurt you in any way before we got here?"
"...he just knocked me down a couple of times.

Like a KISS from a Rose: Keep it simple, stupid. Especially when spinning tales.

 

[Maccabbee]

The Victoria plotline could go in so many directions. Ian's reaction will obvioulsy hinge on his introspection. Will he be mature enough to accept Vicky as she is or will he resent her for being just another whore when he truly loved her. Edwin knows Ian better than anyone, and he knows Ian's reaction will more than likely be negative, that's why he desperately tells him Victoria is still the same as ever. Also, when the penny drops that Grace blackmailed Vicky and that Chuck used to torment her, Ian's whole world will turn upside down, more than it already was.


As for Edwin, he's also not very eager to hear it from the horse's mouth, despite wanting the "truth". His flimsy cope of "she sacrificed herself for me" is slowly crumbling, especially since the Donovan scene all but spelled it out that Vicky did porn first and foremost because she wanted to. Donovan even calls her out on it, as no woman will do 4 scenes and come back for more unless she's into it. Vicky's a natural whore, and Donny quickly seems to peg her as one. Victoria said it herself, she didn't mind doing gangbangs, but the lack of production values and amateutism bothered her. Edwin's visceral disgust at meeting Donovan shows us he's not nearly ready for the truth.


My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.


Edwin's entire worldview revolves around his mother's "sacrifice" for him and his guilt and self flaggelation because of it. He sees what his mother did as humiliating and shameful, and he believes he's the cause of that because his mom wanted to keep him comfortable. While that's partially true, the reason he feels so guilty and he constantly rewatches his mother's tapes is because he percieves women having sex as inherently negative and humiliating, and him being at the club only amplifies that perception. I see the choice of "delete/keep the tapes" as Edwin metaphorically forgiving both Vicky and himself and letting go of his obsession. Or alternatively reaching a moral event horizon where is obsession only gets deeper the closer he is to the "truth".

As for Vicky selling the house, she's been extremely lonely since Edwin moved out for college, especially in a big, empty house full of bittersweet memories. She's been trying out dating apps, but she didn't have much luck besides a few hookups, as she admitted to Ian. So she's probably trying to turn a new leaf and begin anew. As for Edwin's negative reaction, it's probably the realization that he's been falling out of touch with his mom since he started working at the Club, and the fact that his mom seemingly wants to move on from their house he grew up in and all the memories they had together, possibly the memory of his father, too. Most importanly, it's a painful reminder that they're slowly drifting apart, and things are changing in both of their lives, and Edwin never got to pay off the debt he thinks he owes her.

Mind you, this is all my speculation, and I'm bored at work so I'm writing this wall of text.

A lot of this is your inferences rather than what I feel is actually implied in the game, particularly in Edwin's sexual proclivities. Aside from his intense Sadism (if you choose that route), he seems a thoughtful lover and has great sex with (in my run) his girlfriend Hana, and previously with his FWB Mina. I don't think of the Sadism thing as deviant if it's consensual, just another flavor of sexual preferences (you don't always gotta get one flavor of ice cream, and can enjoy multiple kinds).

 

[GamingSavant]

My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.

I think he's quite the opposite. For example after the first round with Hana after their date night, while he's in the shower, he says: "(God, I love sex)."

Not to mention he almost always spends his first time with any girl fingering or eating them out, cuz he likes making them cum. Seeing women squirm from pleasure is a turn-on for him.

 

[ffive]

I think he's quite the opposite. For example after the first round with Hana after their date night, while he's in the shower, he says: "(God, I love sex)."

Not to mention he almost always spends his first time with any girl fingering or eating them out, cuz he likes making them cum. Seeing women squirm from pleasure is a turn-on for him.

Yeah, i don't see how one would think Edwin has that kind of thoughts and attitude towards sex when he works his ass off to make the girl cum multiple times.

 

[TD1900]

Yeah, i don't see how one would think Edwin has that kind of thoughts and attitude towards sex when he works his ass off to make the girl cum multiple times.

Duh. Eating pussy makes you a feminist, obviously.

I wouldn't label Edwin as sex negative person (it's not like he's not open to people banging), but I wouldn't call him sex positive either. At the very least, has some sex-negative thoughts.

When it comes to Vicky, he doesn't want to accept that she might have done porn for any other reason than the one most convenient to him because (to him) the alternative is that she's a whore. There's no middle ground where she's a willful woman with an itch to scratch, it's an either and or thing. Sex taints her image. Which is understandable given what he's seen her do, that's his mom, but it seeps into his dealings with other women from time-to-time.

It can be hard to say where the line between Edwin's dirty talk and his personal demons begins. There's this weird overlap between our unthinking feelings that have been hammered into us by centuries of puritanism and our more "enlightened" side that results in the negative connotations around sex becoming fodder for our pillow talk. There are some scenarios in the game where you could argue Edwin's thoughts extend beyond dirty talk and he's internally wrestling with feelings of revulsion. Whether that's because some part of him sees sex as a dirty thing or he's just disgusted by Felicia's frivolous attitude is up to interpretation. Either way, it's a product of his psychic damage.

 

[lustforsex]

Yeah, i don't see how one would think Edwin has that kind of thoughts and attitude towards sex when he works his ass off to make the girl cum multiple times.

A sadist who enjoys giving pleasure to others more than he enjoys receiving it. An odd combination. And I think this is a good option to redirect sadism into another direction. Now imagine two such people meeting - that's the real peak. Mina probably excels in this regard.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Over time, this scene has become more and more my favorite, even though I didn't think so the first time. Mina did the best job of making Edwin believe that her intentions were genuine. IMO.

 

[GamingSavant]

A sadist who enjoys giving pleasure to others more than he enjoys receiving it. An odd combination. And I think this is a good option to redirect sadism into another direction. Now imagine two such people meeting - that's the real peak. Mina probably excels in this regard.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Over time, this scene has become more and more my favorite, even though I didn't think so the first time. Mina did the best job of making Edwin believe that her intentions were genuine. IMO.

The Hotel scene with Mina is definitely one of my favorites too, cuz it's Edwin meeting someone with perfect charm and cuteness who is willing to be as freaky as he wants to take it. It's also a set-up for a later scene with my absolute favorite scene so far, "The More the Merrier"

 

[prpa]

The Hotel scene with Mina is definitely one of my favorites too, cuz it's Edwin meeting someone with perfect charm and cuteness who is willing to be as freaky as he wants to take it. It's also a set-up for a later scene with my absolute favorite scene so far, "The More the Merrier"

The hotel scene with Mina is great, and the threesome with Felicia is one of the hottest scenes ever. However, the date with Felicia (especially the ending) is hard to pass up because they are one of my favorite scenes in the game. As a result, I've only seen the threesome once.

 

[GamingSavant]

The hotel scene with Mina is great, and the threesome with Felicia is one of the hottest scenes ever. However, the date with Felicia (especially the ending) is hard to pass up because they are one of my favorite scenes in the game. As a result, I've only seen the threesome once.

Only way I can see it being topped is if the inevitable Hana x Mina threesome tops it.