VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[UmbralKnight]

my sympathy for her went through the roof.

while that scene was disgusting for me at that point i didn't feel a lot of sympathy for her because of 2 reasons

A) MC and Veronica at that point don't have a good rapport yet and she didn't see him as anything other than Kathy's lackey

B) That entire situation was AVOIDABLE ,yes samson did try to grab her from behind and she had every right to defend herself but she had been antagonizing literally everyone up until that point so when kathy chooses one of the most humiliating and disgusting methods to punish her nobody tried to stop it even though her "crime" were very minor

i did come to like , love and sympathize with her as a character after week 2 exhibition i think where kathy punishes her and humiliates her in front of everyone because she turned one of kathy's tricks against her
while it was a defiant effort ultimately kathy made sure that she paid for that little stunt with both her body and mind

it was that little scene just after the shower where the MC can hug her, comfort her and call her as "friend" that finally made be completely switch to her side

not only the scene itself very "intimate" but it's not exactly sexual , yes she is naked but it is very intimate in the sense that this isthe scene wherethe MC finally gets a glimpse of her real personality , her rationalizations on why she is there and yet you can still see that she is still proud ,defiant and strongwilled even after what happened

for once she actually doesn't care that the MC is still kathys lackey and instead is thankful for his support

that was the moment that clicked for me

 

[Kameri]

View attachment 4970719

Really sums up why this thread (and a few others) are worth sticking around for me, id high five some of you while we tagged team someone for sure

i'm in here for shits and giggles like this lol

 

[broxitar]

while that scene was disgusting for me at that point i didn't feel a lot of sympathy for her because of 2 reasons

A) MC and Veronica at that point don't have a good rapport yet and she didn't see him as anything other than Kathy's lackey

B) That entire situation was AVOIDABLE ,yes samson did try to grab her from behind and she had every right to defend herself but she had been antagonizing literally everyone up until that point so when kathy chooses one of the most humiliating and disgusting methods to punish her nobody tried to stop it even though her "crime" were very minor

i did come to like , love and sympathize with her as a character after week 2 exhibition i think where kathy punishes her and humiliates her in front of everyone because she turned one of kathy's tricks against her
while it was a defiant effort ultimately kathy made sure that she paid for that little stunt with both her body and mind

it was that little scene just after the shower where the MC can hug her, comfort her and call her as "friend" that finally made be completely switch to her side

not only the scene itself very "intimate" but it's not exactly sexual , yes she is naked but it is very intimate in the sense that this isthe scene wherethe MC finally gets a glimpse of her real personality , her rationalizations on why she is there and yet you can still see that she is still proud ,defiant and strongwilled even after what happened

for once she actually doesn't care that the MC is still kathys lackey and instead is thankful for his support

that was the moment that clicked for me

You make a good point. I suppose I misspoke. It's less that I became totally in her corner than that I felt a strong pull to be gentler with her after that, despite our lack of rapport. I guess you could say, it made me want to establish a rapport, to make it clear that I wasn't like the sickos surrounding her.

Seeing her suffer that ordeal firmly reestablished the arduous nature of what she'd signed up for, despite her turning the tables on Kathy briefly. Even if Veronica hadn't been antagonistic, I didn't imagine anyone in that audience would speak up in her defense when Kathy chose her punishment. The degradation is all part of what the club is about.

 

[ename144]

I thought for a while and wondered how Edwin could answer the question he asked himself at the very beginning of the game if he delete the videos:

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All those excuses during the game, that he watches videos to avoid looking down on other people or tries to understand Victoria's motives and whether she likes all this, are true to some extent, but not the main one. Deleting the videos won't change anything in the long run, because he won't be able to answer the question above. This first video of Vicky with Donovan may open his eyes to why he's watching all this.

This may be a stupid comparison, but I know people who install games (Dota 2) before each session, and then delete them because they are overwhelmed with negative emotions. And this continues for them almost every day, for many years. And all because they don't ask themselves why they continue to play at all. Maybe because they like these negative emotions, but they can't admit it to themselves? Maybe they didn't realize that this game brings less positive emotions than negative ones?

To put an end to this, Edwin needs to realize and accept the main reason why he watches these videos. And as cynical as it may sound, Victoria's tears, which were the result of Grace's blackmail, should not stop Edwin from knowing himself.

If he realizes what's wrong with him and why he's actually been watching those videos for years - it doesn't necessarily have to be a point of no return. If he deletes the videos, the obsessive thoughts will not disappear anywhere, that's why they are obsessive, and the videos will only disappear from his computer. It's something like taking pills for a constant headache, instead of going to the doctor and finding out the cause.

I also want to say that bad thoughts =/= a bad person. If all people start to realize their dark fantasies in reality - chaos will come to the world. Although this isn't necessary, you can simply remove the laws and you will see how people turn into animals. Of course, not all. You will be a bad person only if you show it to other people with your actions and it doesn't matter at all who you are deep down:

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This is my interpretation, and it may fundamentally differ from what TD has in store for us. For me personally, until Edwin answers the question he asked himself at the very beginning of the game, trying to turn a blind eye to it isn't the best idea.

I see what you're getting at and I agree that why the MC is watching those videos is the crux of the matter. Where I disagree is with the notion that *watching* the videos again is necessary to answer the question. I don't think it is, at least not directly.

I see the decision to watch or delete the videos as effectively the answer to the question all by itself. An MC who deletes them has concluded that he was watching them for the wrong reasons (possibly to help cope with his confusion and uncertainty over how to address his mother's past), but now that everything is in the open there is no need to see that 'filth' again. On the other hand, and MC who watches the video again has concluded that there is *something* of value in those videos and thus wants to embrace the opportunity to find out what it is, regardless of the cost.

Neither choice is wrong in a gaming sense, they just lead to different outcomes. I frame the decision to delete the videos as the "good" choice because that's how the MC's internal dialog has framed his more empathic side throughout the game. But ultimately it's two sides of the same coin, the choice of what to do with the videos is a metaphor for who we want our MC to be in microcosm.

Obviously in the real world it's almost never that simple, but this is a work of interactive fiction, where external actions tend to be more tightly tied with internal struggles. That's what I'm expecting, anyway!

 

[Lusurbur]

Replaying again and I gotta say that i also hope that besides lucy getting more content i also wish kathleens path gets explored aswell preferably in a more intimate way where we can sort of delve into her personal life...maybe even make her into a cum drunk sow but only for the mc and only in private considering kathleen understands perception is important especially at the club. Would even be kino if you could even play as the willing bull in kathleens marriage while her husband watches willingly or not....

 

[Ozymandias037]

Not a fan of Rocky Mountain oysters either, I assume? Kinda funny though that they make the distinction between fresh and cooled sperm as if it tastes so much better on tap...when the opposite is probably more true. Cold things are less flavorful. The odor is not as pungent anymore as well since some of the components responsible are volatile. Plus even the thickest load has become runny at this point. People who drink their egg whites raw in the morning are half way there.

I mean... Like most people who grew up in Colorado I was pranked by someone at some point and fed Rocky Mountain Oysters before I knew what they were. And like, no, I'm not much of a fan, but I think the squick about that only comes in retrospect. I think "cover it in batter and throw it in the deep fryer" is one of the most transformative culinary superpowers out there, right along with "drown it in garlic butter and herbs."

That said, I have absolutely no qualms in admitting that my thought process completely stopped at "donkey semen" and barely even registered "piss." Your points about texture and flavor were far, far outside the realm of my consideration

 

[lustforsex]

I see what you're getting at and I agree that why the MC is watching those videos is the crux of the matter. Where I disagree is with the notion that *watching* the videos again is necessary to answer the question. I don't think it is, at least not directly.

I see the decision to watch or delete the videos as effectively the answer to the question all by itself. An MC who deletes them has concluded that he was watching them for the wrong reasons (possibly to help cope with his confusion and uncertainty over how to address his mother's past), but now that everything is in the open there is no need to see that 'filth' again. On the other hand, and MC who watches the video again has concluded that there is *something* of value in those videos and thus wants to embrace the opportunity to find out what it is, regardless of the cost.

Neither choice is wrong in a gaming sense, they just lead to different outcomes. I frame the decision to delete the videos as the "good" choice because that's how the MC's internal dialog has framed his more empathic side throughout the game. But ultimately it's two sides of the same coin, the choice of what to do with the videos is a metaphor for who we want our MC to be in microcosm.

Obviously in the real world it's almost never that simple, but this is a work of interactive fiction, where external actions tend to be more tightly tied with internal struggles. That's what I'm expecting, anyway!

Probably the closest description of what the real reason for watching these videos is shown in the conversation with Mina after the scene in the hotel. However, this conversation will not happen if you don't follow her path.

Most players will likely choose not to delete the videos simply because they don't want to miss the scene
And as you mentioned, this choice may be more tragic for Edwin, but there is also a chance that this choice will stop him from floating in uncertainty about both Victoria's motives and his own, possibly incorrect, beliefs.

We also need to take into account that Vicky decided to tell Edwin about her past not of her own free will (thanks to Grace). Edwin wants to have a heart-to-heart talk with her about it, but does she want to...? It all comes down to motives.

 

[Kiyah]

I mean sure, I'm not saying it's impossible for him to be tender. I'm saying that the way he obsesses over the videos of her, the way he reacts when he meets Donovan, mixed with a more cruel leaning MC playthrough, would lead to him either calling out her for "enjoying it", as she seems to with Donovan, or perhaps the fact that she actually mentions her son in that video, he could say she was using him as an excuse to engage in her fantasies, or something. I don't know, it just feels like there should be more of a choice there depending which way he leans. I have two main playthroughs for this game, that I labeled "kind" and "cruel", for simplicity's sake. My kind MC would forgive her instantly, makes total sense. My more cruel MC? Not the way he would act, or at least, I don't think so. I don't know, forgiving her feels like it could be a major game choice that was just taken away. But again, that is just my opinion!

That's precissely it, he obsesses over the videos. It's not lust (regardless of the level of assholery/sadism the MC may have), it's guilt.
Edwin feels guilty (to me, at least) because his mother had to resort to recording porn as an extra source of cash, not because they needed it to survive (like Rosalind) but because she wanted to provide extra comfort to the MC (not having to move to a smaller and cheaper house, for example).
Watching the videos gives to me vibes of penance, of scratching a barely scabbed wound. I could see the MC breaking should Victoria somehow ended in the club performing and really letting loose with her (dunno what would happen to Kathleen or Chuck afterwards, however, since those two are the ones who like to play mindgames and own others...), but that would be, I think, a Bad End (specially since Killian still has a platonic fixation with Victoria, thanks to how much of an asshole his mother is to him and others, making it quite easy to displace feelings of motherly love to Victoria).

Until this point, the game presents a story that is quite tight (aside from Felicia's painter exhibition, which considering who will show up for the weeking feels more like an extra layer of deception), and as such I think inserting a "fallen mother Victoria" route would complicate things needlesly (at least for now, once the whole game is ready, extra branches could be added).

 

[UmbralKnight]

I suppose I misspoke.

no , it's perfectly alright
In your play through it was that that force feeding scene which made you side with Veronica more
for me it was the latter scene
both are vaild arguments for supporting Veronica

didn't imagine anyone in that audience would speak up in her defense when Kathy chose her punishment. The degradation is all part of what the club is about.

True
but she doesn't understand/realise that
after all she literally tried to unionise the other carnations just a week later during the conversation in the diner

she is kinda of naive in that regard

 

[Ozymandias037]

That's precissely it, he obsesses over the videos. It's not lust (regardless of the level of assholery/sadism the MC may have), it's guilt.
Edwin feels guilty (to me, at least) because his mother had to resort to recording porn as an extra source of cash, not because they needed it to survive (like Rosalind) but because she wanted to provide extra comfort to the MC (not having to move to a smaller and cheaper house, for example).
Watching the videos gives to me vibes of penance, of scratching a barely scabbed wound. I could see the MC breaking should Victoria somehow ended in the club performing and really letting loose with her (dunno what would happen to Kathleen or Chuck afterwards, however, since those two are the ones who like to play mindgames and own others...), but that would be, I think, a Bad End (specially since Killian still has a platonic fixation with Victoria, thanks to how much of an asshole his mother is to him and others, making it quite easy to displace feelings of motherly love to Victoria).

Until this point, the game presents a story that is quite tight (aside from Felicia's painter exhibition, which considering who will show up for the weeking feels more like an extra layer of deception), and as such I think inserting a "fallen mother Victoria" route would complicate things needlesly (at least for now, once the whole game is ready, extra branches could be added).

I think you're on to something, or at the very least you have a very good theory. Specifically, the phrase "scratching a barely scabbed would" jumped out and resonated hard for me. That's exactly what it feels like. I don't know if Edwin himself is aware of why he keeps watching those videos, but he certainly knows it can't be good for him, but he does it anyway. Repeatedly, for years. Whatever the motivation (guilt, Oedipus complex, a struggle to understand, or whatever) there is absolutely a feeling of self-flagellation to it. He isn't doing this because it's fun, but rather because he is, for whatever reason, compelled to. It's a very unhealthy thing. I mean, I guess that goes without saying, but still.

I also think it's important to remember that Victoria's choices and Edwin's feelings and reactions about it are absolutely core to his character and his emotional journey. This is, after all, "a tale of motherly love." Rose and Grace and Victoria and their relationships with Edwin and Ian and others are all in this story for reasons. They're all different versions of "mother" and it's expressed and explored in different ways. TD has commented here about this multiple times. Hell, even Lucy and Felicia and other characters play into this central unifying theme.

I've said a lot about this before and I don't want to repeat myself, but I am constantly amazed at the narrative richness and complexity of this game. I keep coming back to this game and this thread because the story and the writing really make me want to peel whole thing apart and look at how it all works. The motivations and choices of the characters, the questions and feelings this game evokes in me as a player... it hits in ways most things don't. It makes me want to actually use all those analytical tools I picked up in English class. "Literary merit" is far, far down the list of things I generally expect in a porn game, but this one has it in spades. It's very much an S tier example of the "novel" part of AVN.

...Don't get me wrong, though, I'm ten million percent here for the porn part too (mostly, even). I'd be a liar if I said otherwise.

 

[ename144]

Probably the closest description of what the real reason for watching these videos is shown in the conversation with Mina after the scene in the hotel. However, this conversation will not happen if you don't follow her path.

Most players will likely choose not to delete the videos simply because they don't want to miss the scene
And as you mentioned, this choice may be more tragic for Edwin, but there is also a chance that this choice will stop him from floating in uncertainty about both Victoria's motives and his own, possibly incorrect, beliefs.

We also need to take into account that Vicky decided to tell Edwin about her past not of her own free will (thanks to Grace). Edwin wants to have a heart-to-heart talk with her about it, but does she want to...? It all comes down to motives.

I mean, I would expect most players to play both options on different save paths.

As far as Victoria wanting to tell the MC, I'd say she's doing so of her own free will even if it isn't the choice she'd make in a vacuum. Grace forced her hand, but only in the sense that Vicky coming clean to the MC is her way of defying Grace; I very much doubt forcing this reckoning was Grace's goal. Victoria (likely) had a way to keep her secret but chose to prioritize something else instead.

Given how much this game plays around in the grey margins of consent, I'd tend to consider this a voluntary act on Victoria's part.

 

[lustforsex]

I mean, I would expect most players to play both options on different save paths.

As far as Victoria wanting to tell the MC, I'd say she's doing so of her own free will even if it isn't the choice she'd make in a vacuum. Grace forced her hand, but only in the sense that Vicky coming clean to the MC is her way of defying Grace; I very much doubt forcing this reckoning was Grace's goal. Victoria (likely) had a way to keep her secret but chose to prioritize something else instead.

Given how much this game plays around in the grey margins of consent, I'd tend to consider this a voluntary act on Victoria's part.

This goes without saying. But the 2 major choices (confess to Ian and delete the videos) that TD gives us at the very end of the update give the player the opportunity to think about their choices in their main playthrough and not be guided by "I'll first see what these choices lead to, and then choose the "good" option".

This illustrates that the MC's instinct to delete the tapes once the truth was revealed was the right one.

For Edwin, the truth hasn't yet been revealed. Victoria's attempt to confess to her past, which he has known for many years, can hardly be called the truth. If you go by instinct, as you mentioned earlier, then the "good" choice for him would be to lie to Ian. Edwin himself feels this:

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After this, Ian directly says that they need to ask Vicky herself what happened between her and Grace. For my main playthrough, where Ian goes down the Introspection path, I'm not going to lie to him. Is it wrong for Vicky? Absolutely. But in this case, Edwin needs someone he can rely on no matter what. He's already been going down this path alone too much.
Even Victoria herself wanted to confess her past to both of them and there are hints about this.

As for Grace, I have vague doubts that she even thought about the option where her blackmail would completely backfired and this would turn Ian against her even more. And this is despite the fact that Victoria herself told her this to her face:

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This is exactly what awaits Grace in my main playthrough

As for her "voluntary act" - I completely disagree. I think in the last update it's not for nothing that the topic of Victoria wanting to sell the house is touched upon (as Veronica said, Vicky wants to turn the page in her life).

I'm starting to think more and more that Edwin isn't just a sadist by nature, he's an empathetic sadist

 

[Maccabbee]

This goes without saying. But the 2 major choices (confess to Ian and delete the videos) that TD gives us at the very end of the update give the player the opportunity to think about their choices in their main playthrough and not be guided by "I'll first see what these choices lead to, and then choose the "good" option".

For Edwin, the truth hasn't yet been revealed. Victoria's attempt to confess to her past, which he has known for many years, can hardly be called the truth. If you go by instinct, as you mentioned earlier, then the "good" choice for him would be to lie to Ian. Edwin himself feels this:

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After this, Ian directly says that they need to ask Vicky herself what happened between her and Grace. For my main playthrough, where Ian goes down the Introspection path, I'm not going to lie to him. Is it wrong for Vicky? Absolutely. But in this case, Edwin needs someone he can rely on no matter what. He's already been going down this path alone too much.
Even Victoria herself wanted to confess her past to both of them and there are hints about this.

As for Grace, I have vague doubts that she even thought about the option where her blackmail would completely backfired and this would turn Ian against her even more. And this is despite the fact that Victoria herself told her this to her face:

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This is exactly what awaits Grace in my main playthrough

As for her "voluntary act" - I completely disagree. I think in the last update it's not for nothing that the topic of Victoria wanting to sell the house is touched upon (as Veronica said, Vicky wants to turn the page in her life).

I'm starting to think more and more that Edwin isn't just a sadist by nature, he's an empathetic sadist

I agree with this (based on my Maintaining my Friendship with Introspective Ian, sadistic but caring/good MC run) 100%. I am also out of reactions.

 

[lustforsex]

I also want to point out that TD and GIL did a good job with the music that accompanies the players' choices. It's easy to confuse the player that way

 

[DETROIT123_io]

Guys rememeber when the debt collecter oliver went to Rosalind's house in week 3 part 3 , we saw her house was messed up . And during dialogue , He almost smacked Rose in the face . So did Rose got beaten or slapped before we came in ? What happened in the house before that
?

 

[se20299]

The Victoria plotline could go in so many directions. Ian's reaction will obvioulsy hinge on his introspection. Will he be mature enough to accept Vicky as she is or will he resent her for being just another whore when he truly loved her. Edwin knows Ian better than anyone, and he knows Ian's reaction will more than likely be negative, that's why he desperately tells him Victoria is still the same as ever. Also, when the penny drops that Grace blackmailed Vicky and that Chuck used to torment her, Ian's whole world will turn upside down, more than it already was.


As for Edwin, he's also not very eager to hear it from the horse's mouth, despite wanting the "truth". His flimsy cope of "she sacrificed herself for me" is slowly crumbling, especially since the Donovan scene all but spelled it out that Vicky did porn first and foremost because she wanted to. Donovan even calls her out on it, as no woman will do 4 scenes and come back for more unless she's into it. Vicky's a natural whore, and Donny quickly seems to peg her as one. Victoria said it herself, she didn't mind doing gangbangs, but the lack of production values and amateutism bothered her. Edwin's visceral disgust at meeting Donovan shows us he's not nearly ready for the truth.


My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.


Edwin's entire worldview revolves around his mother's "sacrifice" for him and his guilt and self flaggelation because of it. He sees what his mother did as humiliating and shameful, and he believes he's the cause of that because his mom wanted to keep him comfortable. While that's partially true, the reason he feels so guilty and he constantly rewatches his mother's tapes is because he percieves women having sex as inherently negative and humiliating, and him being at the club only amplifies that perception. I see the choice of "delete/keep the tapes" as Edwin metaphorically forgiving both Vicky and himself and letting go of his obsession. Or alternatively reaching a moral event horizon where is obsession only gets deeper the closer he is to the "truth".

As for Vicky selling the house, she's been extremely lonely since Edwin moved out for college, especially in a big, empty house full of bittersweet memories. She's been trying out dating apps, but she didn't have much luck besides a few hookups, as she admitted to Ian. So she's probably trying to turn a new leaf and begin anew. As for Edwin's negative reaction, it's probably the realization that he's been falling out of touch with his mom since he started working at the Club, and the fact that his mom seemingly wants to move on from their house he grew up in and all the memories they had together, possibly the memory of his father, too. Most importanly, it's a painful reminder that they're slowly drifting apart, and things are changing in both of their lives, and Edwin never got to pay off the debt he thinks he owes her.

Mind you, this is all my speculation, and I'm bored at work so I'm writing this wall of text.

 

[slightchance]

So did Rose got beaten or slapped before we came in ?

"Did he hurt you in any way before we got here?"
"...he just knocked me down a couple of times.

Like a KISS from a Rose: Keep it simple, stupid. Especially when spinning tales.

 

[Maccabbee]

The Victoria plotline could go in so many directions. Ian's reaction will obvioulsy hinge on his introspection. Will he be mature enough to accept Vicky as she is or will he resent her for being just another whore when he truly loved her. Edwin knows Ian better than anyone, and he knows Ian's reaction will more than likely be negative, that's why he desperately tells him Victoria is still the same as ever. Also, when the penny drops that Grace blackmailed Vicky and that Chuck used to torment her, Ian's whole world will turn upside down, more than it already was.


As for Edwin, he's also not very eager to hear it from the horse's mouth, despite wanting the "truth". His flimsy cope of "she sacrificed herself for me" is slowly crumbling, especially since the Donovan scene all but spelled it out that Vicky did porn first and foremost because she wanted to. Donovan even calls her out on it, as no woman will do 4 scenes and come back for more unless she's into it. Vicky's a natural whore, and Donny quickly seems to peg her as one. Victoria said it herself, she didn't mind doing gangbangs, but the lack of production values and amateutism bothered her. Edwin's visceral disgust at meeting Donovan shows us he's not nearly ready for the truth.


My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.


Edwin's entire worldview revolves around his mother's "sacrifice" for him and his guilt and self flaggelation because of it. He sees what his mother did as humiliating and shameful, and he believes he's the cause of that because his mom wanted to keep him comfortable. While that's partially true, the reason he feels so guilty and he constantly rewatches his mother's tapes is because he percieves women having sex as inherently negative and humiliating, and him being at the club only amplifies that perception. I see the choice of "delete/keep the tapes" as Edwin metaphorically forgiving both Vicky and himself and letting go of his obsession. Or alternatively reaching a moral event horizon where is obsession only gets deeper the closer he is to the "truth".

As for Vicky selling the house, she's been extremely lonely since Edwin moved out for college, especially in a big, empty house full of bittersweet memories. She's been trying out dating apps, but she didn't have much luck besides a few hookups, as she admitted to Ian. So she's probably trying to turn a new leaf and begin anew. As for Edwin's negative reaction, it's probably the realization that he's been falling out of touch with his mom since he started working at the Club, and the fact that his mom seemingly wants to move on from their house he grew up in and all the memories they had together, possibly the memory of his father, too. Most importanly, it's a painful reminder that they're slowly drifting apart, and things are changing in both of their lives, and Edwin never got to pay off the debt he thinks he owes her.

Mind you, this is all my speculation, and I'm bored at work so I'm writing this wall of text.

A lot of this is your inferences rather than what I feel is actually implied in the game, particularly in Edwin's sexual proclivities. Aside from his intense Sadism (if you choose that route), he seems a thoughtful lover and has great sex with (in my run) his girlfriend Hana, and previously with his FWB Mina. I don't think of the Sadism thing as deviant if it's consensual, just another flavor of sexual preferences (you don't always gotta get one flavor of ice cream, and can enjoy multiple kinds).

 

[GamingSavant]

My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.

I think he's quite the opposite. For example after the first round with Hana after their date night, while he's in the shower, he says: "(God, I love sex)."

Not to mention he almost always spends his first time with any girl fingering or eating them out, cuz he likes making them cum. Seeing women squirm from pleasure is a turn-on for him.

 

[ffive]

I think he's quite the opposite. For example after the first round with Hana after their date night, while he's in the shower, he says: "(God, I love sex)."

Not to mention he almost always spends his first time with any girl fingering or eating them out, cuz he likes making them cum. Seeing women squirm from pleasure is a turn-on for him.

Yeah, i don't see how one would think Edwin has that kind of thoughts and attitude towards sex when he works his ass off to make the girl cum multiple times.