VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[InsaneINC]

Kathleen is a remarkable woman. She manages to maintain her position with strength and integrity in a male-dominated environment, where women have a lower value.
She does a great job, and I enjoy seeing her in both, strong and sexually weak situations, throughout the game. I'm curious to see how the story continues around her.

Integrity ? She have not one redeemable quality. What MC say to her while drowning her ass in the bath is basically what she is. Absolutely worthless. And she knows it. As she mentions that it might be the last or second last show for her. cant remember the correct dialogue but that tells me she will probably go out with a bang doing most depraved shit she can. I have no sympathy for her. Since I hear now you guys say its gonna be split and we won't see the show in the next update I have a feeling she will be working on the other two girls trying to find a way to destroy their lives too. For Veronica that coach showing up is no coincidence.

 

[sunaboz]

I don't understand why Kathleen is singled out in this hate. She's no worse than August and certainly better than Chuck AFAWK. Every woman that is in the club knew what she was signing for. Felicia also knew that joining the exhibition might lead to Elias learning about it, Kathleen was explicit and told Felicia that this is not for Felicia's entertainment but for PC patrons. If Felicia had any doubts that this might bite her in the ass, the photoshoot with Edwin's cock touching her face made it abundantly clear. She still went with it because she concluded that the risk was acceptable and this was the only (or rather the easiest) way to reach her goal.

Kat's no saint, that's for sure but there's nothing to indicate that she's blackmailing anyone. We don't know exactly what she's doing in the vault and whether she's drugging anyone against their will there so until then I don't see how she's destroying anyone. At no point has Kathleen said that what they're doing in the club will stay behind closed doors. That was the risk those women were willing to take for a chance to earn enough money for their dreams. And let me remind you that they are aware that only one will win this and they might be whoring out for free.

Anyway, I hope that we won't get any unrealistic ending, e.g. Edwin taking over the club or Kat suddenly going bankrupt or worse.

 

[ffive]

I don't understand why Kathleen is singled out in this hate. She's no worse than August and certainly better than Chuck AFAWK.

Kat is both the person who calls the shots about the exhibition and doing it with glee, as well as someone who turned her sister's charity into her personal grounds to prey on people who come there looking for help. The latter in particular is the kind of far-reaching duplicity that makes her extra abhorrent compared to the other two.

While both August and Chuck are also despicable people, I don't think either of them would have any actual interest or patience to run this dog and pony show personally. Without Kat one would just stick to running the brothel and the other to his little bet games.

 

[InsaneINC]

I don't understand why Kathleen is singled out in this hate. She's no worse than August and certainly better than Chuck AFAWK. Every woman that is in the club knew what she was signing for. Felicia also knew that joining the exhibition might lead to Elias learning about it, Kathleen was explicit and told Felicia that this is not for Felicia's entertainment but for PC patrons. If Felicia had any doubts that this might bite her in the ass, the photoshoot with Edwin's cock touching her face made it abundantly clear. She still went with it because she concluded that the risk was acceptable and this was the only (or rather the easiest) way to reach her goal.

Kat's no saint, that's for sure but there's nothing to indicate that she's blackmailing anyone. We don't know exactly what she's doing in the vault and whether she's drugging anyone against their will there so until then I don't see how she's destroying anyone. At no point has Kathleen said that what they're doing in the club will stay behind closed doors. That was the risk those women were willing to take for a chance to earn enough money for their dreams. And let me remind you that they are aware that only one will win this and they might be whoring out for free.

Anyway, I hope that we won't get any unrealistic ending, e.g. Edwin taking over the club or Kat suddenly going bankrupt or worse.

I don't single her out because she is the only one. There is no one worse than Her in there atm period. It is clear as day what is going on in that vault too. Of course she is drugging people against their will. They are basically working on that formula trying to perfect it. So they can control girls permanently. That is my theory. What I mean by that is that every year they have the show they will pump the carnations full of this shit. And then have the girls stay after the show regardless if they win or not. What Kathleen is doing is basically destroy their lives so they don't really have anything to go back to. Its also very viable MC is drugged up permanently. They are experimenting on him too. He doesn't pass out constantly after sex for no reason. Neither is those visions normal. That being said I don't like August either especially his interest in Mina. She is very naive and will fall for his shit. Its the lesser of two evils for me atm. My opinions might change as we haven't seen the other two do to much direct evil shit.

 

[helo138]

Considering she purposefully ruins people lives with zero intention to stop i think that's one of these rare cases where this would be clear-cut net positive for the world. And that's even though usually i'm reluctant to go for this option. But in Kat's case, i think not letting her live in your head rent-free by trying to devise some special punishments or "revenge" for her, but just taking her behind the shed to dispose of like the trash she is, would be actually the fate she'd resent the most.

I agree with you in principle, but where is the fun in such an ending. I am still playing a porn game. Would this be a CRPG I would choose your option. However I think TD will find a way to make sexual submission humiliating for her, despite her nature.

 

[Discrepancy]

lol yeah right. If that was actually true, the average player would have the exact same success rate with these in game characters as they do in real life: zero. The attitudes towards women and general social skills on display in this forum are clearly not those of successful people in either romance or life in general. There is absolutely no question about this.

This is a porn game, operating on porn logic, holding the hands and soothing the nerves of social rejects and life failures. It's not more than that. No game on here really is. The successful devs all know their target audience, and these are very capable examples. It's always incel fantasies. Virtually always anyway. The nastiest people get catered to, that is the internet for you, and this is one of the darkest areas of the internet.

I mean I'm here too, it's a guilty pleasure. But let's not delude ourselves. We can chill on that lmao.

Dude, this is one of the most unique AVNs here, if the devs wanted to cater to the typical avn audience or whatever you want to call it, they would create a Incest Harem, not a game where the LI's can reject you and with themes the "vanilla" audience don't care about.

 

[Khan merry]

Every woman that is in the club knew what she was signing for

Tbf Kat only give a vague introduction to exhibition and all the Carnation thought it's just simple sex work at first so i don't think they exactly knew what are they signing up for.

I hope that we won't get any unrealistic ending, e.g. Edwin taking over the club or Kat suddenly going bankrupt or worse.

i don't think that's unrealistic, she got a few secret that could jeopardize her regular and pc life. And who knows when Kat is no longer in charge, Edwin could get a promotion.

 

[ffive]

lol yeah right. If that was actually true, the average player would have the exact same success rate with these in game characters as they do in real life: zero. The attitudes towards women and general social skills on display in this forum are clearly not those of successful people in either romance or life in general. There is absolutely no question about this.

But it's not "the average player" with their questionable social skills put in the plot directly. It's Edwin, a character who comes with his own skills and personality. The other characters in the game are scripted to respond to his actions, and these actions range from acting like a socially competent human being to giving in to his pervert impulses. And, surprise, although this is a porn game the characters will react to these options in a manner a bit more realistic than your "average porn game player" on these forums is accustomed with, from playing other porn games. That's the whole point.

 

[Darreau91]

You can fit a semi truck up Kathleen’s booty hole so that default makes her best goth waifu. She may not have the girly man made artistic tattoos like Hana. She has the holy grail…those old, gilfed, experienced veins as natures best tattoos.

 

[ename144]

I don't understand why Kathleen is singled out in this hate. She's no worse than August and certainly better than Chuck AFAWK. Every woman that is in the club knew what she was signing for. Felicia also knew that joining the exhibition might lead to Elias learning about it, Kathleen was explicit and told Felicia that this is not for Felicia's entertainment but for PC patrons. If Felicia had any doubts that this might bite her in the ass, the photoshoot with Edwin's cock touching her face made it abundantly clear. She still went with it because she concluded that the risk was acceptable and this was the only (or rather the easiest) way to reach her goal.

I'd say she's worse than August; he's ruthless, but at least he's professional about it. Kathleen literally gets off on making it personal to the people she torments. It's too soon to say definitively how she stacks up to Chuck, but since we've only heard rumors of his dark side (whereas Kat's is on full display) it's not surprising she gets singled out for criticism.

Also, as Kameri notes, the Carnations most certainly did not have a clear idea of what they were signing up for; Kathleen was deliberately vague about it. And given what we know of Nicolette's backstory it's likely some or all of the house girls have been forced to work here under implied (or even direct) threats. The notion that Kathleen's victims consented to her tender ministration is laughable.

Kat's no saint, that's for sure but there's nothing to indicate that she's blackmailing anyone. We don't know exactly what she's doing in the vault and whether she's drugging anyone against their will there so until then I don't see how she's destroying anyone. At no point has Kathleen said that what they're doing in the club will stay behind closed doors. That was the risk those women were willing to take for a chance to earn enough money for their dreams. And let me remind you that they are aware that only one will win this and they might be whoring out for free.

Eh, these seems like threadbare excuses. Kathleen's been injecting people with an experimental drug for weeks now. The MC sure didn't get a data sheet and a waiver to sign if he "won" her contest in Week 1. I've no doubt the various girls were also given the drug without any suitable disclosures. Likewise the fact that she hasn't promised not to publicize the Carnation's ordeal is hardly a ringing endorsement.

 

[Zakharova]

Please don't badmouth Kathleen, you fucking idiots!!!

She's just trying to free the MC from his moral and ethical constraints, giving him what it's like to be in a world where contradictions are truly lived.

Ultimately, she's just like you fucking wankers, trying to survive in a chain of whoredom and debauchery where everyone is a filthy, debauched wanker trying to find devotion.

 

[sunaboz]

I'd say she's worse than August; he's ruthless, but at least he's professional about it. Kathleen literally gets off on making it personal to the people she torments. It's too soon to say definitively how she stacks up to Chuck, but since we've only heard rumors of his dark side (whereas Kat's is on full display) it's not surprising she gets singled out for criticism. (...)

August is a killer and a mobster (also a pimp and most likely a loan shark like Olly - at least he was), compared to him Kathleen is a harmless grandma. I disagree that she's making it personal to the people she torments. There's nothing personal here (well, besides her getting off on it), she's just making sure that patrons are entertained and customizes her methods so they would fit best to the person in question. Her intention isn't to harm the women that are there but to bring entertainment to patrons. I don't see any malice in her actions. And let me remind you that at any point carnations and whores can just quit (it might be a bit more difficult for some whores who have debts like Kimber but she could still quit and work 2 jobs to pay instead of selling her body).

And yes, Kathleen's a sadist but she has boundaries and she uses the carrot and stick method. If someone performs well they get a reward and if they do a half-ass job they get the stick. And as I've said, she's been very upfront what they might expect so I disagree that carnations didn't know what they were signing for. Of course they didn't know EXACT specifics but Felicia being debased before the game even begun gave them a taste of what's to come. I mean, can you be more explicit than this:

"On this stage, you're not a person. You're club property. You belong to me."
"You exist only for our magnanimous patrons' viewing pleasure. That's what you signed up for."
"I've no doubt you're accustomed to a certain level of respect in your daily life, but you'll get none of that here."

(...)
I've no doubt the various girls were likewise given the drug without any suitable disclosures. (...)

I'm not so sure about it as you but it's definitely plausible. She might have injected some of them, although I'm not sure what the point would be if they were just whores who would be doing the same things even without a drug. But judging by Kat's surprise by the result, Edwin was her first guinea pig and she considered it as a reward to him and not something malicious. As far as Kat knew this stuff was harmless (after all she put that on her skin regularly and thus must have absorbed some of it in the process, same went for Sophia who was one of the creators of the drug).

Kat: "It's already fully activated, I'll be damned! Van Doren really outdid himself with this one."
Edwin: "(She's SURPRISED?!)"
Kat: "The science and the effects of that concoction is astounding, but I won't bore you with details. Quite simply, it makes you want to fuck. It gives you the energy to fuck. It makes your body capable of fucking."

(...)
And given what we know of Nicolette's backstory it's likely some or all of the house girls have been forced to work here under implied (or even direct) threats. (...)

lol
There is no indication of that, what makes you say that? Nico (or someone close to her) has probably have a debt but nothing stops her from working 12 hours a day or more to pay it in an honest manner.

 

[Leinad_Sevla]

Does anyone have any idea when the next update will be?

If I had to guess, I´d say within the next two months. But I really don´t know.

 

[ename144]

August is a killer and a mobster (also a pimp and most likely a loan shark like Olly - at least he was), compared to him Kathleen is a harmless grandma. I disagree that she's making it personal to the people she torments. There's nothing personal here (well, besides her getting off on it), she's just making sure that patrons are entertained and customizes her methods so they would fit best to the person in question. Her intention isn't to harm the women that are there but to bring entertainment to patrons. I don't see any malice in her actions. And let me remind you that at any point carnations and whores can just quit (it might be a bit more difficult for some whores who have debts like Kimber but she could still quit and work 2 jobs to pay instead of selling her body).

And yes, Kathleen's a sadist but she has boundaries and she uses the carrot and stick method. If someone performs well they get a reward and if they do a half-ass job they get the stick. And as I've said, she's been very upfront what they might expect so I disagree that carnations didn't know what they were signing for. Of course they didn't know EXACT specifics but Felicia being debased before the game even begun gave them a taste of what's to come. I mean, can you be more explicit than this:

We'll have to agree to disagree. It seems extremely clear to me that harming the women is precisely Kathleen's intent; any 'carrots' she offers are purely for rhetorical effect.

There is no indication of that, what makes you say that? Nico (or someone close to her) has probably have a debt but nothing stops her from working 12 hours a day or more to pay it in an honest manner.

The fact that she owes money to mobsters is what makes me say it. If Nicolette needs, say, a week to line up this mythical alternative job, do you really think her debtors would be any more patient than Oliver was with Rose?

Besides, even if we ignore the physical obstacles to her "just working 12 hours a day," the fact that horrible things will happen to her if she doesn't earn the money makes any sense of consent invalid. You might as well argue that blackmail victims voluntarily give up their money; after all, they could obviate the whole thing by publicizing their secrets themselves!

 

[Nulldev]

...
Finally, in the most unexpected place, we've found our new girlboss feminist icon.

Well, when this game ends, i will wait for the prequel: "Kathleen, the early years".

 

[HornyGuy0690]

Well, when this game ends, i will wait for the prequel: "Kathleen, the early years".

Imagine it being an FMC game where we'd watch innocent Kat get corrupted into what she is now.

 

[Ozymandias037]

Imagine it being an FMC game where we'd watch innocent Kat get corrupted into what she is now.

From what I have read from TD, that's probably a decent way to pitch it.

 

[Nulldev]

Imagine it being an FMC game where we'd watch innocent Kat get corrupted into what she is now.

AFAIK she said she was always a sadist, just didn't know at first.

 

[mrbombadil]

Imagine it being an FMC game where we'd watch innocent Kat get corrupted into what she is now.

That... would actually be hot. Interesting.

 

[Simpgor]

AFAIK she said she was always a sadist, just didn't know at first.

The entire game would be that one scene where she admits to Edwin that "awoke" her sadism: Some dude in college throwing away his future for her

Honestly we could get that in game like you said it was not a journey it was a door being kicked open

There's nothing personal here (well, besides her getting off on it), she's just making sure that patrons are entertained and customizes her methods so they would fit best to the person in question. Her intention isn't to harm the women that are there but to bring entertainment to patrons. I don't see any malice in her actions. And let me remind you that at any point carnations and whores can just quit (it might be a bit more difficult for some whores who have debts like Kimber but she could still quit and work 2 jobs to pay instead of selling her body).

uhm..... she literally fucks Veronica because of how she acts in the "pre game" and week one, we know for a fact that its personal for her because she later admits that doing stuff like that (enjoying the show) makes all the patrons think of her as just another base whore (admits after Edwins gift) so despite her "losing" ground with the Patrons she still does it, she doesnt have Edwin, or Ian, or a random draw audience member fuck Vero she does it because Vero talked shit at her, you could also agrue that the more recent stuff (felica) is just as focused because not only is Elias being involved but she also has one of the patrons buying a painting, and while the patrons would enjoy cucking Elias buying an emotionally important paitning to felica is 100% for her (kathleen).... unless you think samson or the titty milk guy just happen to really really really like art imo its more likely that kathleen is doing it because she knows that unlike Elias knowing (this late in the game) the painting stuff could legit hurt Felicia.

I'm not so sure about it as you but it's definitely plausible. She might have injected some of them, although I'm not sure what the point would be if they were just whores who would be doing the same things even without a drug. But judging by Kat's surprise by the result, Edwin was her first guinea pig and she considered it as a reward to him and not something malicious. As far as Kat knew this stuff was harmless (after all she put that on her skin regularly and thus must have absorbed some of it in the process, same went for Sophia who was one of the creators of the drug).

You say that the girls are "property" and that Kathleen owns them? Considering she has injected Edwin without his consent TWICE (if you are a real gamer) during OFF HOURS (not for the patrons), that she has a girl literally trapped in the "basement", that she has given the carnations WINE LACED WITH THE DRUG the idea that she did not do it because "she could" is a wild take.

Also unless im misremembering the laced wine comes before (in story) the injection reward for Edwin he could not have been the "first use"... perhaps the first one of a new batch, or the first male injected, the details arent clear because its been awhile since ive replayed but the idea that somehow they had laced wine first and then somehow got an injection from that seems too far even for Sophie (sorry turret)