VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[RC-1138 Boss]

Not at all - I anticipated this distinction but didn't want to have the inevitable followup debate. If Mina is into Edwin, the distinction between them being "serious" and "fwb" is really just an excuse for one party to fool around and the other to feel like crap - its like this in the real world too, sometimes the unrequited side is the guy, sometimes its the girl. You can't tell me with a straight face if you were really into a girl and she said "Oh yeah I love sleeping with you, but um I don't really want to limit my options" you'd feel the slightest bit good about it.

Do you really think Mina's character is that much better off having a casual fling-guy who screws around on the side than a boyfriend who cheats on her? Both of those things kinda leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I do not see it as a meaningless distinction. As i mentioned Mina not only is cool with the idea she is the one to propose it to Edwin, so she can better enjoy her previously repressed sexual desires. She is not interested in a (rebound) relationship right now.


Meanwhile Edwin also knows he can't be in one because of his job.


Maybe sometime more will come out of it in the future (or maybe not) but for now i don't see either side being mislead by keeping things casual.

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That's certainly fair, but it could be interpreted in a variety of ways - maybe he was trying to break up, maybe he was trying to broaden her horizons and wasn't having his needs met...

About Ian my hypothesis is that the main reason he got a girlfriend was because he thought this was one thing socially required of him. But he grew bored of keeping appearances after a while.
He makes fun of her when Mina talks about anything sexual so the one thing i am sure is that Ian was not trying to broad her horizons.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

I do not see it as a meaningless distinction. As i mentioned Mina not only is cool with the idea she is the one to propose it to Edwin, so she can better enjoy her previously repressed sexual desires. She is not interested in a (rebound) relationship right now.
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Meanwhile Edwin also knows he can't be in one because of his job.
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Maybe sometime more will come out of it in the future (or maybe not) but for now i don't see either side being mislead by keeping things casual.

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About Ian my hypothesis is that the main reason he got a girlfriend was because he thought this was one thing socially required of him. But he grew bored of keeping appearances after a while.
He makes fun of her when Mina talks about anything sexual so the one thing i am sure is that Ian was not trying to broad her horizons.

It makes perfect sense as you've typed it out. But I dont think this is intellectually honest - by that I mean you wouldn't take this tack if it was yourself in Mina's shoes.

I mean cmon dude, stuff like

Mina not only is cool with the idea she is the one to propose it to Edwin, so she can better enjoy her previously repressed sexual desires.

Lets be real here, does this make any sense whatsoever outside the context of a female-charicature in a porn game? Would you ever in 1000 years find yourself saying "Man, I sure am glad I'm sleeping with this new girl now, she does get around on the side a bunch, but now I can enjoy my previously hidden sexual kinks!"

It doesn't make ANY sense. It could ONLY make the faintest amount of sense in a porn context, specifically about girls for male viewers.

To bring it full circle back to the game: This is why I think Mina is one of the weakest characters in the game. She's not real. Her motivations aren't realistic, and underneath all the window dressing her actions are about as sensical as the attractive milf stripping down to tip the pizza boy in a retro porn. There's a purpose for those characters, but lets not pretend they're something they're not.

 

[Throwaway7777]

Thats because minas not ready to be anybodys girlfriend at the moment especially somebody who she knows is fucking her best friend while Hanna is.

I agree with your statement, but I don't think it retorts mine. If you get together with hana and meet Mina, when you talk about how she could look for other guys, she says that she would rather be with you, so it's clear that she's leaning towards that but is afraid of putting a title on it for now.

What I'm thinking about regarding transparency with Hana is: You tell her that "Hey I'd like to have a future with you but I can't do so right now, 'I have obligations' (be vague about it) or I'm tangled up with Girl X Y and Z because of reasons A B and C(you can be fully transparent and tell her what you're doing exactly)."

Hana seems to be a very understanding girl, and I highly doubt doing so would damage your relationship in anyway since you were single.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

It makes perfect sense as you've typed it out. But I dont think this is intellectually honest - by that I mean you wouldn't take this tack if it was yourself in Mina's shoes.

I mean cmon dude, stuff like

Lets be real here, does this make any sense whatsoever outside the context of a female-charicature in a porn game? Would you ever in 1000 years find yourself saying "Man, I sure am glad I'm sleeping with this new girl now, she does get around on the side a bunch, but now I can enjoy my previously hidden sexual kinks!"

It doesn't make ANY sense. It could ONLY make the faintest amount of sense in a porn context, specifically about girls for male viewers.

To bring it full circle back to the game: This is why I think Mina is one of the weakest characters in the game. She's not real. Her motivations aren't realistic, and underneath all the window dressing her actions are about as sensical as the attractive milf stripping down to tip the pizza boy in a retro porn. There's a purpose for those characters, but lets not pretend they're something they're not.

It seems to me you are self inserting way too much. Not only in the story but also trying to do the same in my shoes.

Have no idea about your life experiences but let me tell you a bit about my college time.

Not saying it happened with everyone and everytime, but it was fairly common for friends to end up having flings when we were at some party or when we travelled together for some college related event. It happened to me a handfull of times (nothing serious ever came up of it), there was even two in my class who end up in a romantic relationship for the rest of college life after hooking up a few times.

So yes i have been on their shoes (minus the "i work on a brothel part"). Sometimes people like to experience something different, to have pleasure and maybe broad their horizons with no strings attached.

Of course this is a porngame and as such sex will be a big focus on the story, but saying Mina's motivations aren't at least based in some things that can happen in real life is a gross oversimplification of the work the developers put into fleshing out those characters.

 

[Zerorox]

I dunno... the more I see the progression with Mina and Hana, the more I want my MC to remain single and just avoid unneeded problems and concentrate on Club/Carnations.
The thing is I find FWB relationships "unnatural", and serious relationships stupid in this situation.
So friendzone both Black and Blonde Tails will probably remain my Canon Route.
(Ofc I'll play all possible routes)

Edit: And Honestly I sense big problems with Hana and just don't like Mina (don't like as LI and totally not interested in "broaden her horizons", with self inserting*, both characters are amazing)
Or maybe I'm just more into older women... I'd surely date Felicia and become FWB with Kathleen, lol

 

[Takkatakka]

I dunno... the more I see the progression with Mina and Hana, the more I want my MC to remain single and just avoid unneeded problems and concentrate on Club/Carnations.
The thing is I find FWB relationships "unnatural", and serious relationships stupid in this situation.
So friendzone both Black and Blonde Tails will probably remain my Canon Route.
(Ofc I'll play all possible routes)

Edit: And Honestly I sense big problems with Hana and just don't like Mina (don't like as LI and totally not interested in "broaden her horizons", with self inserting*, both characters are amazing)
Or maybe I'm just more into older women... I'd surely date Felicia and become FWB with Kathleen, lol

Good thing, there are options.

I'm actually more interested in the stuff that is happening outside of the club and I like Hana a lot more than any of the Carnations and Mina as well...

 

[dolfe67]

It makes perfect sense as you've typed it out. But I dont think this is intellectually honest - by that I mean you wouldn't take this tack if it was yourself in Mina's shoes.

Lets be real here, does this make any sense whatsoever outside the context of a female-charicature in a porn game? Would you ever in 1000 years find yourself saying "Man, I sure am glad I'm sleeping with this new girl now, she does get around on the side a bunch, but now I can enjoy my previously hidden sexual kinks!"

It doesn't make ANY sense. It could ONLY make the faintest amount of sense in a porn context, specifically about girls for male viewers.

You seems to be traditional in relationship or sexuallity. I've no problem if my FWB has benefits with other men, as I've benefits with other girls. It can even lead to MMF threesome, but I bet you despise the idea.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

You seems to be traditional in relationship or sexuallity. I've no problem if my FWB has benefits with other men, as I've benefits with other girls. It can even lead to MMF threesome, but I bet you despise the idea.

You'd be surprised.

What I'm against are asymmetrical views on sex. In that segment of mine you quoted I was trying to get the other person to see the contrast between how often players imagine themselves as a guy with a lot of girls but rarely imagine them as a guy dating a girl who's also with a lot of guys, yet that's the exact situation there.

I think you're probably more on the same side as me than you'd realize - and when these "mina character arguments" come up, the biggest fans of hers would likely be people in the 'other camp'. In a sense, that's kinda what discussions about Mina represent, a proxy war heh. Or in other words, I'd bet good money the majority of PC players opposed to mmf scenes are also big Mina fans.

 

[Zerorox]

You seems to be traditional in relationship or sexuallity. I've no problem if my FWB has benefits with other men, as I've benefits with other girls. It can even lead to MMF threesome, but I bet you despise the idea.

As for Me... not tatally traditional, always depends on circumances, I like experiments overall so it's just personal issue, bad life experience with FWB... always one side decide to cross the line and become something bigger and it ends badly (for some people it ends with happy marriage or peaceful break up, but Personally for Me it always ended bad)
But I'll still play all routes for interest, Just one playthrough "playin' myself"

And yeah, originally FWB means Free Pass for both but we know dev's will avoid real netorare so it's already signs of harem

 

[ename144]

It makes perfect sense as you've typed it out. But I dont think this is intellectually honest - by that I mean you wouldn't take this tack if it was yourself in Mina's shoes.

I mean cmon dude, stuff like

Lets be real here, does this make any sense whatsoever outside the context of a female-charicature in a porn game? Would you ever in 1000 years find yourself saying "Man, I sure am glad I'm sleeping with this new girl now, she does get around on the side a bunch, but now I can enjoy my previously hidden sexual kinks!"

I wouldn't, no, but then again I stuck Mina firmly in the friendzone so the question isn't really applicable. If I DID have a bunch of dark kinks I was considering exploring, however, I can see why I'd prefer to explore them with a casual friend rather than a serious girlfriend - or boyfriend, for that matter.

It doesn't make ANY sense. It could ONLY make the faintest amount of sense in a porn context, specifically about girls for male viewers.

To bring it full circle back to the game: This is why I think Mina is one of the weakest characters in the game. She's not real. Her motivations aren't realistic, and underneath all the window dressing her actions are about as sensical as the attractive milf stripping down to tip the pizza boy in a retro porn. There's a purpose for those characters, but lets not pretend they're something they're not.

I strongly disagree. Mina's motivations aren't entirely rational and they may well be very bad for her (depending on the sort of MC we're playing), but I find them entirely realistic. People do stupid, self-deluding stuff all the time.

 

[TD1900]

Just a reminder that Mina's the one who all but outright rejects the notion of getting into a relationship with Edwin.

Porn game contrivance of a sexual bucket list aside, her motivations for not wanting a relationship with the player character makes sense to me. She tells him she wants to work on herself, which is perfectly valid coming hot off the heels of the first man she ever loved systematically destroying her trust in men, but you can also read into it in less self-affirming ways too.

I mean, the question of what motivated her clumsy seduction of Edwin is an obvious one, brought up in the text itself. Does she even like Edwin enough to want to actually date him? Is he a way of getting back at Ian? Is it somewhere in between? Maybe it all comes down to self-esteem and a budding, cynical view on monogamy? One of the central elements of her character, that the text crudely beats the player over the head with, is the unknowability across human relationships. Where does the bullshit begin, where does it end, and how much of Edwin's cynicism is he projecting onto her?

Admittedly, writing a character from that starting point is a pretty convenient way to sweep inconsistencies under the rug, but... I am thankful Mina made her choice. It works out being prtty nicely for me in terms of the story's branching structure going forward.

 

[Zerorox]

Just a reminder that Mina's the one who all but outright rejects the notion of getting into a relationship with Edwin.

Porn game contrivance of a sexual bucket list aside, her motivations for not wanting a relationship with the player character makes sense to me. She tells him she wants to work on herself, which is perfectly valid coming hot off the heels of the first man she ever loved systematically destroying her trust in men, but you can also read into it in less self-affirming ways too.

I mean, the question of what motivated her clumsy seduction of Edwin is an obvious one, brought up in the text itself. Does she even like Edwin enough to want to actually date him? Is he a way of getting back at Ian? Is it somewhere in between? Maybe it all comes down to self-esteem and a budding, cynical view on monogamy? One of the central elements of her character, that the text crudely beats the player over the head with, is the unknowability across human relationships. Where does the bullshit begin, where does it end, and how much of Edwin's cynicism is he projecting onto her?

Admittedly, writing a character from that starting point is a pretty convenient way to sweep inconsistencies under the rug, but... I am thankful Mina made her choice. It works out being prtty nicely for me in terms of the story's branching structure going forward.

Oh my god, I dunno 'bout Edwin but I project a fuckin' lot of my cynism into Mina, that's Why I'm often repeatin' "I don't like Mina but she's amazing Character"
We'd never had such discussions here if We'd be able to read characters Thoughts. So we can make decisions somewhat blindly (at least at first) like in real life and not after short identification of one of standard tropes.

You've said so much and revealed so nothing and that's amazing cause the most crucial part is: I can continue saying she's just usin' Edwin for satisfaction of her egoistic needs and interests, without long going plans on their shaky relationship, and almost any random nerd (satisfying some criteria ofc) had chance to be in MC's place, and maybe will have chance in nearby future

 

[TD1900]

We'd never had such discussions here if We'd be able to read characters Thoughts. So we can make decisions somewhat blindly (at least at first) like in real life and not after short identification of one of standard tropes.

You've said so much and revealed so nothing and that's amazing cause the most crucial part is: I can continue saying she's just usin' Edwin for satisfaction of her egoistic needs and interests, without long going plans on their shaky relationship, and almost any random nerd (satisfying some criteria ofc) had chance to be in MC's place, and maybe will have chance in nearby future

Well, it is my job to be long-winded and not say anything of value.

 

[BrockLanders]

Well, it is my job to be long-winded and not say anything of value.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

View attachment 2575746

*chup chup chup or maybe those are just felicia noises..

If I DID have a bunch of dark kinks I was considering exploring, however, I can see why I'd prefer to explore them with a casual friend rather than a serious girlfriend - or boyfriend, for that matter.

I've never understood this perspective, though to credit your point I often hear it from women in the real world, not men. Seems to me if someone's not comfortable or embarassed with revealing certain preferences/kinks/behaviors their relationship isn't really that close.

Granted, some things can be mighty embarassing, I know I myself have kept things concealed during relationships. But that doesn't mean I'd be more willing to talk about them with a stranger - or if I was, it'd be because they're merely being glossed over; drinking game style.

 

[BrockLanders]

*chup chup chup or maybe those are just felicia noises..


I've never understood this perspective, though to credit your point I often hear it from women in the real world, not men. Seems to me if someone's not comfortable or embarassed with revealing certain preferences/kinks/behaviors their relationship isn't really that close.

Granted, some things can be mighty embarassing, I know I myself have kept things concealed during relationships. But that doesn't mean I'd be more willing to talk about them with a stranger - or if I was, it'd be because they're merely being glossed over; drinking game style.

FIXED

 

[MilesEdgeworth]

Id argue that Mina just got out of her first relationship which was very toxic, she's not ready to go back into another one.

As for her relationship with Edwin, he's been built up to be a god, so when he pretty much lives up to the hype you can see why she pretty much tries to push him into the boyfriend role. That being said, he's openly dating multiple women and whether he's like Ian or not, that's still his best friend, so I can see why she'd be cautious in terms of her relationship with him.

 

[Deleted member 5730975]

why does being cheated on make it more difficult to share fetishes? isnt it the fear of getting rejected that prevents one from sharing fetishes? wouldn't a cheating boyfriend make it easier since there is less to lose?

She is in denial at the time and is trying to stay in the relationship. She is afraid that sharing fetishes might make him think she is a weirdo and end it.

And remember that it is her first relationship. You are far more likely to put up with your partner's abuse and bullshit if it is your very first relationship. It is likely that you dont know what your boundaries are and you are bad at drawing the line. I think their relationship is a very realistic depiction of first time relationships going to shit.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

She is in denial at the time and is trying to stay in the relationship. She is afraid that sharing fetishes might make him think she is a weirdo and end it.

And remember that it is her first relationship. You are far more likely to put up with your partner's abuse and bullshit if it is your very first relationship. It is likely that you dont know what your boundaries are and you are bad at drawing the line. I think their relationship is a very realistic depiction of first time relationships going to shit.

I think the whole fetish thing is kinda retconned.... hmm that's the wrong word, but it's inflated far past it's original proportion in the story. In game, 90% of the meat and potatoes is this: mc has a friend, friend has a cute girlfriend who's kinda quiet, mc's friend is a serial cheater on his gf. That's it. All this sigmunding at the end of the day, it really comes down to - are you the type who will cover for your friends bad behavior or not?

It's not a morally black and white question; those that snipe the gf obviously forgo loyalty, and those that whitewash the cheater stand on shaky relativistic ground.

 

[misfolk]

I don't know why I avoided this game for so long despite it being the second highest rated one on the site. The start is a bit weak, but damn does it spread its wings later. Eighty percent of AVN writers can't write believable characters. Out of the remaining ones that can, eighty percent can only write one-trick ponies: this is the girl that is X, this is the girl that is Y. Only a few can write a character that has at least a couple different sides to them, and Pale Carnations has lots of them.