VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[slightchance]

Looks like a split between split and and full release, so it's 2:1 for a split. I'd say the matter is settled. A poll wasn't even needed.

 

[Kameri]

Can we see the poll result?

 

[MagicMan753]

I can see both sides. I am of the camp to wait till the exhibiton is done and aftermath events/night events all in one for multiple reasons. I feel like having one big update will feel better, yes you get something out now, but how much content or type of content will there be. Like how much sexual content will there really be, before nothing was really gated, yes we had indviudal girl updates, but you can date all girls, this update we are getting major Hana GF path, how many people have that path or wants to follow that path, I am setting that path up later.

I think also just overall sexual scenes, will people really be satisified, cause it feels like it will be a bunch of setup, with our usual exploring the area, talking to people, getting ready. So the same people that want release now, will probably just be the same to come here to bitch and moan possibly, about not getting much content or update feeling short, possibly.

I would like to wait even if you split, but that would also suck, cause I know the update would be out, so what, can't come to this forum, or anywhere for what, another 6+ months to avoid spoilers possibly. And I understand the financial or gain growth, but still it would suck to play what may feel like half an update, without the exhibiton, just my thoughts on the situation, but will respect whatever you decide.

 

[lustforsex]

Believe it or not, you actually came to mind when we were weighing the pros and cons. I know a subset of players are looking forward to the content that the exhibition proper will provide and I've made certain assurances about what to expect in the next one.

All to say, I don't know man, I appreciate your perspective.



That's a good point actually. When I said what I was leaning towards three weeks ago, I didn't expect us to be making a poll about it. I guess I started to feel the claws of the time devil digging into our shoulders with July turning into August and was looking for some reassurance, as, to be honest, I'm not a huuuuge fan of involving polls in these kind of decisions.

The act of posing one probably leads to more hurt feelings for the side that loses than just us unilaterally making a decision would (especially so if we end up going against the majority), but GIL had the idea the other day and it got me genuinely curious about what the silent majority feels. Someone suggested that it would have been better to add a more laissez-faire option ("do whatever you want"). Admittedly, that probably would have helped us get a better sense of where people's feelings actually land should we go one way or another, but I feel like that would have won and we'd be in the exact same impasse.

You can cross me out of the list of those who might be upset by your final decision. But I don't know how many people have the same opinion.

Honestly, I think that Pale Carnations deserves more popularity and, therefore, more support, if you objectively look at the bar set by your game. In my opinion, only your second game can surpass this bar in the AVN niche (if there is one, of course). The fact that this game isn't for everyone and many are simply afraid to give it a chance, after 5 years of development, you need to think about growth (Veronica's vibe) and dividing the update into 2 parts will provide this growth to some extent.

I'm not one of those people who just wants an update here and now, I want your game to be more successful.

 

[Kameri]

You can cross me out of the list of those who might be upset by your final decision. But I don't know how many people have the same opinion.

Honestly, I think that Pale Carnations deserves more popularity and, therefore, more support, if you objectively look at the bar set by your game. In my opinion, only your second game can surpass this bar in the AVN niche (if there is one, of course). The fact that this game isn't for everyone and many are simply afraid to give it a chance, after 5 years of development, you need to think about growth (Veronica's vibe) and dividing the update into 2 parts will provide this growth to some extent.

I'm not one of those people who just wants an update here and now, I want your game to be more successful.

+1 yeah also the matter about upseting certain players, i think only the one who has fewer patience will do something about it

 

[Biscardone]

(Preface: I'm not a patron. Do what you will with my preferences.)

I am among those who would gladly wait for a more substantial release. Primarily because, if I'm understanding correctly, the "original idea" was not to split the release in two, and as such this is probably what would come more natural, from both a technical and narrative point of view.

I also don't particularly like polls, because as I've probably said an inordinate amount of times, I don't particularly like the idea of fans influencing decisions on the game itself - because it leads people to thinking that "he who pays the piper calls the tune", and that's the exact opposite of what patronage should represent. And while I would like the game to reach the broadest audience possible, I think this is something that cannot be done without compromising the original vision.

But overall, I would rather the choice be based solely on the considerations of TD and GIL. Because there is no game without the authors, and I'd much like the game to reach its completion in the smoothest way possible.

 

[prpa]

I’ll add my two cents: I don’t mind waiting, actually, I’m all for it. I’d much rather experience the full game day as one complete event than have it split in two. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but usually, the first part of an exhibition tends to have less sexual content than the second. And let’s be honest, no matter how big the update is or how much written content it offers, there will always be a vocal group of crybabies whining about the lack of sex.

That said, I do see the other side of the argument. Releasing the content in parts might help maintain momentum and encourage growth in patron support, as some have pointed out. It’s a trade-off between pacing and community engagement.

 

[dolfe67]

Yeeah, I'm more a fan of split. I feel like people that wouldn't mind waiting are ride or die, and I really appreciate them. The problem is growth and relevance, and also keeping the more transactional-minded part of our fanbase happy. I'm very surprised by the results, truth be told. We'll see what we decide.

Having seen a few of this kind of polls, I'm not surprised, as the majority of patrons always votes to wait.

Can we see the poll result?

 

[pinuz1]

Ahhh what a long and varied discussion, and rightfully so, both options could very well be the right play. But I want to look at it this way

I feel like not splitting the update could hurt the final content, I highly doubt that when it's been 11 months or more without an update, TD and Gil are not feeling the pressure of time, hell they are feeling it right now, it could definitely lead up to them rushing a bit, maybe less quality on the writing or the animations, even if they don't want to, it could happen naturally from the stray of thinking about having to finish this very long update asap. This of course is hypotethical, at the end of the day I'm not them, so idk if it would actual impact the game or not, but I feel like releasing the first half and boosting morale and giving them a breather would lead to a much better total exhibition 3, they could explore more ideas now that time is not a concern.

Again, the time gap will not matter in the end, we'll all have exhibition 3 full at some point, so what's the matter on recieving it split? as some other guy pointed out, we can enjoy this first part and replay it a couple times, and when the other half is released you just replay it again, I know it's not the same, but it seems like some people are making a huger deal out of this than what it is.

As Turret mentioned, I also dislike having the update split, as it would mean the second half will just be the parts that I tend to enjoy the least in 1 update, those being the main event of the exhibition, where the 3 girls are up on stage and perform, don't get me wrong I still enjoy whatever happens, but it tends to be my least favorite scenes of PC.

I feel like TD mentioning they wanted to not split the update for so long has tainted a lot of peoples opinions as lustforsex mentioned. But that was back when the update wasn't even in the halfway point, time has passed and this first half is basically a full normal update by now, and even Gil has stated they'd prefer to split it. I'm thinking what's better for the game and our 2 devs right now, and not prioritizing my own enjoyment, because honestly, I'll enjoy it anyway, if its one big update, I'll cum big, if it's 2 updates, I'll cum twice. so who cares at the end of the day.

 

[helo138]

Believe it or not, you actually came to mind when we were weighing the pros and cons. I know a subset of players are looking forward to the content that the exhibition proper will provide and I've made certain assurances about what to expect in the next one.

All to say, I don't know man, I appreciate your perspective.

I appreciate you saying this, my insistence on this topic payed off.
Unfortunately, the repeated rationale on keeping the exhibition contained to one update, sounds like an echo chamber reiterating the contents of the previous dev diaries. Why is this so important for everybody?
I would assume, at least half the people stating this reason, would happily switch their stance, if splitting the update would have been the plan from the beginning (ergo they are following the road map given by you).
So in the end the poll won´t help you. You still have to decide yourself if the pros outweight the cons.

My main worry, and that of a few others I believe, is that you will feel the pressure rising months before you finish the update. And then corners may be cut, or not, I have faith in your resilience. On the other hand, you are already thinking about the lenghty development cycle and it will only get worse from here.

 

[camube]

...do we? Because it's more financially lucrative for us to update more. It would also reset our morale, get us more engagement, and in the long run the narrative impact of splitting it up is just a temporary issue. New readers or people revisiting the project post chapter 4 will never even know that part of the game was released across two updates.

But besides "muh artistic vision" (which no one cares about), the reality of serialized releases IS that they're packaged experiences, temporary as that may be, for our immediate and most important fans. There is both a fear that the first part of the exhibition will not be as satisfying for them without the night's climax and that the climax will lose impact from the gap in time between releases. The people concerned about that could wait, but that would mean divesting themselves from the community (which if you're yapping about it here, is part of the fun of AVNs). It also doesn't account for the "oh, hey, new update!" folks having the context to make that decision.

Time renders everything moot, but we live in the moment. Having people wait too long for an update OR potentially leaving a bad taste in their mouths both work against that. We wouldn't have made a poll if we were so sure what we wanted.

i think for any game, having 1 update crosses 6 months is already long for me. 8-9 months maximum, even if the update has to be split, even if the update is short. There's far too many games and the impact of cliffhangers and wanting to see a story continuation died down after a year pass, at least for me.

Even if i still 100% play Pale Carnation even if the update crosses 12 months, it might not be true for others.
Out of sight, out of mind. More frequent update, even if short is probably better for devs.

even if that's not preferable for patrons

 

[Elduriel]

even if that's not preferable for patrons

with a largeish and steady supporter base why would they listen to us here? If they put it to a vote and majority of those that actually pay for it vote on one thing, that's what they should take into account, not freeloader opinions.

 

[Ottoeight]

I'm not sure why you think we're failing to account for all this; if anything my estimates are a month or so longer than yours and I still favor the single release (assuming the devs are comfortable with the long wait, of course). I worry that chopping up the Exhibition will result in a very high concentration of my least favorite content in the second half. Now, the devs might be able to mitigate that by adding more variety to the second half once it's split, but from my point of view that just means we have to wait even longer to get to the good stuff after the Exhibition.

We all have our reasons for or against a split release, but I don't think it's helpful to insist people who disagree with you must have miscounted.



Well, the devs are on record in saying the update can be split, it's just a question of how much the split would lessen the impact of the material.

It seems pretty clear the devs feel the lost impact would be significant, and thus would prefer to keep the halves together if all else was equal. But all else is not equal. There are external consequences (both to the fans and to the devs themselves) of a really long development cycle, and those have to be factored in as well.

I don't think there's a perfect solution to the dilemma, but as I've said I trust the devs to make the best choice for the game.

Believe me, I wasn't pointing my finger at you. Your "flowing charts analysis" posts have always been my favourite posts - both here and on that "infamous" thread

I do wonder what the consequences for the first two will be. I told Ian since he's my bro, and kept the videos because I, as the player, am interested in Victoria's past and figured deleting the videos would be counterintuitive.

I honestly think that not-deleting the videos is a very morbid decision. Little by little, as the story moves forward every player is slowly shaping his own Edwin. Well, a not-deleting-the-videos Edwin would lead to a morbid, creepy Main Character, IMHO.

Most of all, you might remember that whatever your game choices have been, (almost) every Vic's flashback sex scene has always been mandatory. So, I don't think you will miss them, whatever the choices you make.

I'm also very interested in the consequences of these two choices. I did exactly the same as you in both cases and consider not deleting the tapes as "Face your demons" and I don't see the logic in the fact that Edwin after this will not be able to forgive Vicky, whatever the truth is. It can only make him stronger than just turning a blind eye to all this. IMHO.

Same as above.

with a largeish and steady supporter base why would they listen to us here? If they put it to a vote and majority of those that actually pay for it vote on one thing, that's what they should take into account, not freeloader opinions.

I don't think the Authors regard as "freeloaders" people who enjoy the game when the public release comes out. The game is "public", after all.

 

[Elduriel]

I don't think the Authors regard as "freeloaders" people who enjoy the game when the public release comes out. The game is "public", after all.

probably not, and I didn't say that to insult anyone, I'm here after all too. But that doesn't change my point that I tried to make.

 

[camube]

with a largeish and steady supporter base why would they listen to us here? If they put it to a vote and majority of those that actually pay for it vote on one thing, that's what they should take into account, not freeloader opinions.

what patron wants and what's good for the devs is not mutually exclusive. from a patron point of view, i don't want a split release either.

but for game devs, frequent update is better than a long update (provided that the updates has a proper start, middle, end)

 

[Elduriel]

but for game devs, frequent update is better than a long update (provided that the updates has a proper start, middle, end)

and you pulled out those statistics from...?

 

[camube]

and you pulled out those statistics from...?

no i just mean that's my take

 

[Axeleen]

I obviously only speak for myself, but I don´t mind waiting an extra one/two months and get everything at once. Get the exhibition out of the way and move on to other things.

It's not gonna be remotely close to 1/2 months more, do you have any extrapolation skills ?

 

[ename144]

...do we? Because it's more financially lucrative for us to update more. It would also reset our morale, get us more engagement, and in the long run the narrative impact of splitting it up is just a temporary issue. New readers or people revisiting the project post chapter 4 will never even know that part of the game was released across two updates.

But besides "muh artistic vision" (which no one cares about), the reality of serialized releases IS that they're packaged experiences, temporary as that may be, for our immediate and most important fans.

You also need to consider that when you express your point of view (your personal opinion is present on Patreon), many simply follow it unquestioningly. I think your and GIL's opinions should have been held back for a while so that people could make their own decision. But, unfortunately, it's too late.

I'd actually say it's almost the opposite; I get the distinct impression TD is very nervous about the lengthy delay and is seeking reassurance that his instinct isn't going to harm the game or its fans. To me that's the most potent argument in favor of a split release. Waiting sucks sure, but in the end we're all adults, we can endure it even if we'd rather not. But for our devs toiling away in the AVN mines, they're banking a lot on a positive outcome once the update is released. The longer they go without any feedback, the bigger the stakes and the bigger the dread they might have got it wrong. Plus I'm sure it's nice to come out and enjoy some metaphorical sunlight once in a while, too.

Of course there's always the risk that the whole really is more than the sum of its parts and the divided Exhibition won't pack quite the same punch we've come to expect. That would also be demoralizing, and probably wouldn't be any better for the financials than a longer wait for a better end product would have been. Basically, I don't think there's a silver bullet that ensures the best outcome regardless of the facts on the ground.

But on the bright side, I think the facts on the ground are very favorable. Most of the commenters on poll seem willing to trust whichever decision they make, so I don't think TD and GIL can go too far wrong as long as they keep giving it their best effort. They've more than earned our good will, so hopefully they won't second guess themselves once they pick their poison.

 

[Darreau91]

Of course there's always the risk that the whole really is more than the sum of its parts and the divided Exhibition won't pack quite the same punch we've come to expect.

A split at the end of the free roam pre exhibition would make the most sense imo instead of splitting up the exhibition. If it’s a shorter update it is what is. The joys of branching storylines and longer dev times.