VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[dolfe67]

Yeeah, I'm more a fan of split. I feel like people that wouldn't mind waiting are ride or die, and I really appreciate them. The problem is growth and relevance, and also keeping the more transactional-minded part of our fanbase happy. I'm very surprised by the results, truth be told. We'll see what we decide.

Having seen a few of this kind of polls, I'm not surprised, as the majority of patrons always votes to wait.

Can we see the poll result?

 

[pinuz1]

Ahhh what a long and varied discussion, and rightfully so, both options could very well be the right play. But I want to look at it this way

I feel like not splitting the update could hurt the final content, I highly doubt that when it's been 11 months or more without an update, TD and Gil are not feeling the pressure of time, hell they are feeling it right now, it could definitely lead up to them rushing a bit, maybe less quality on the writing or the animations, even if they don't want to, it could happen naturally from the stray of thinking about having to finish this very long update asap. This of course is hypotethical, at the end of the day I'm not them, so idk if it would actual impact the game or not, but I feel like releasing the first half and boosting morale and giving them a breather would lead to a much better total exhibition 3, they could explore more ideas now that time is not a concern.

Again, the time gap will not matter in the end, we'll all have exhibition 3 full at some point, so what's the matter on recieving it split? as some other guy pointed out, we can enjoy this first part and replay it a couple times, and when the other half is released you just replay it again, I know it's not the same, but it seems like some people are making a huger deal out of this than what it is.

As Turret mentioned, I also dislike having the update split, as it would mean the second half will just be the parts that I tend to enjoy the least in 1 update, those being the main event of the exhibition, where the 3 girls are up on stage and perform, don't get me wrong I still enjoy whatever happens, but it tends to be my least favorite scenes of PC.

I feel like TD mentioning they wanted to not split the update for so long has tainted a lot of peoples opinions as lustforsex mentioned. But that was back when the update wasn't even in the halfway point, time has passed and this first half is basically a full normal update by now, and even Gil has stated they'd prefer to split it. I'm thinking what's better for the game and our 2 devs right now, and not prioritizing my own enjoyment, because honestly, I'll enjoy it anyway, if its one big update, I'll cum big, if it's 2 updates, I'll cum twice. so who cares at the end of the day.

 

[helo138]

Believe it or not, you actually came to mind when we were weighing the pros and cons. I know a subset of players are looking forward to the content that the exhibition proper will provide and I've made certain assurances about what to expect in the next one.

All to say, I don't know man, I appreciate your perspective.

I appreciate you saying this, my insistence on this topic payed off.
Unfortunately, the repeated rationale on keeping the exhibition contained to one update, sounds like an echo chamber reiterating the contents of the previous dev diaries. Why is this so important for everybody?
I would assume, at least half the people stating this reason, would happily switch their stance, if splitting the update would have been the plan from the beginning (ergo they are following the road map given by you).
So in the end the poll won´t help you. You still have to decide yourself if the pros outweight the cons.

My main worry, and that of a few others I believe, is that you will feel the pressure rising months before you finish the update. And then corners may be cut, or not, I have faith in your resilience. On the other hand, you are already thinking about the lenghty development cycle and it will only get worse from here.

 

[camube]

...do we? Because it's more financially lucrative for us to update more. It would also reset our morale, get us more engagement, and in the long run the narrative impact of splitting it up is just a temporary issue. New readers or people revisiting the project post chapter 4 will never even know that part of the game was released across two updates.

But besides "muh artistic vision" (which no one cares about), the reality of serialized releases IS that they're packaged experiences, temporary as that may be, for our immediate and most important fans. There is both a fear that the first part of the exhibition will not be as satisfying for them without the night's climax and that the climax will lose impact from the gap in time between releases. The people concerned about that could wait, but that would mean divesting themselves from the community (which if you're yapping about it here, is part of the fun of AVNs). It also doesn't account for the "oh, hey, new update!" folks having the context to make that decision.

Time renders everything moot, but we live in the moment. Having people wait too long for an update OR potentially leaving a bad taste in their mouths both work against that. We wouldn't have made a poll if we were so sure what we wanted.

i think for any game, having 1 update crosses 6 months is already long for me. 8-9 months maximum, even if the update has to be split, even if the update is short. There's far too many games and the impact of cliffhangers and wanting to see a story continuation died down after a year pass, at least for me.

Even if i still 100% play Pale Carnation even if the update crosses 12 months, it might not be true for others.
Out of sight, out of mind. More frequent update, even if short is probably better for devs.

even if that's not preferable for patrons

 

[Elduriel]

even if that's not preferable for patrons

with a largeish and steady supporter base why would they listen to us here? If they put it to a vote and majority of those that actually pay for it vote on one thing, that's what they should take into account, not freeloader opinions.

 

[Ottoeight]

I'm not sure why you think we're failing to account for all this; if anything my estimates are a month or so longer than yours and I still favor the single release (assuming the devs are comfortable with the long wait, of course). I worry that chopping up the Exhibition will result in a very high concentration of my least favorite content in the second half. Now, the devs might be able to mitigate that by adding more variety to the second half once it's split, but from my point of view that just means we have to wait even longer to get to the good stuff after the Exhibition.

We all have our reasons for or against a split release, but I don't think it's helpful to insist people who disagree with you must have miscounted.



Well, the devs are on record in saying the update can be split, it's just a question of how much the split would lessen the impact of the material.

It seems pretty clear the devs feel the lost impact would be significant, and thus would prefer to keep the halves together if all else was equal. But all else is not equal. There are external consequences (both to the fans and to the devs themselves) of a really long development cycle, and those have to be factored in as well.

I don't think there's a perfect solution to the dilemma, but as I've said I trust the devs to make the best choice for the game.

Believe me, I wasn't pointing my finger at you. Your "flowing charts analysis" posts have always been my favourite posts - both here and on that "infamous" thread

I do wonder what the consequences for the first two will be. I told Ian since he's my bro, and kept the videos because I, as the player, am interested in Victoria's past and figured deleting the videos would be counterintuitive.

I honestly think that not-deleting the videos is a very morbid decision. Little by little, as the story moves forward every player is slowly shaping his own Edwin. Well, a not-deleting-the-videos Edwin would lead to a morbid, creepy Main Character, IMHO.

Most of all, you might remember that whatever your game choices have been, (almost) every Vic's flashback sex scene has always been mandatory. So, I don't think you will miss them, whatever the choices you make.

I'm also very interested in the consequences of these two choices. I did exactly the same as you in both cases and consider not deleting the tapes as "Face your demons" and I don't see the logic in the fact that Edwin after this will not be able to forgive Vicky, whatever the truth is. It can only make him stronger than just turning a blind eye to all this. IMHO.

Same as above.

with a largeish and steady supporter base why would they listen to us here? If they put it to a vote and majority of those that actually pay for it vote on one thing, that's what they should take into account, not freeloader opinions.

I don't think the Authors regard as "freeloaders" people who enjoy the game when the public release comes out. The game is "public", after all.

 

[Elduriel]

I don't think the Authors regard as "freeloaders" people who enjoy the game when the public release comes out. The game is "public", after all.

probably not, and I didn't say that to insult anyone, I'm here after all too. But that doesn't change my point that I tried to make.

 

[camube]

with a largeish and steady supporter base why would they listen to us here? If they put it to a vote and majority of those that actually pay for it vote on one thing, that's what they should take into account, not freeloader opinions.

what patron wants and what's good for the devs is not mutually exclusive. from a patron point of view, i don't want a split release either.

but for game devs, frequent update is better than a long update (provided that the updates has a proper start, middle, end)

 

[Elduriel]

but for game devs, frequent update is better than a long update (provided that the updates has a proper start, middle, end)

and you pulled out those statistics from...?

 

[camube]

and you pulled out those statistics from...?

no i just mean that's my take

 

[Axeleen]

I obviously only speak for myself, but I don´t mind waiting an extra one/two months and get everything at once. Get the exhibition out of the way and move on to other things.

It's not gonna be remotely close to 1/2 months more, do you have any extrapolation skills ?

 

[ename144]

...do we? Because it's more financially lucrative for us to update more. It would also reset our morale, get us more engagement, and in the long run the narrative impact of splitting it up is just a temporary issue. New readers or people revisiting the project post chapter 4 will never even know that part of the game was released across two updates.

But besides "muh artistic vision" (which no one cares about), the reality of serialized releases IS that they're packaged experiences, temporary as that may be, for our immediate and most important fans.

You also need to consider that when you express your point of view (your personal opinion is present on Patreon), many simply follow it unquestioningly. I think your and GIL's opinions should have been held back for a while so that people could make their own decision. But, unfortunately, it's too late.

I'd actually say it's almost the opposite; I get the distinct impression TD is very nervous about the lengthy delay and is seeking reassurance that his instinct isn't going to harm the game or its fans. To me that's the most potent argument in favor of a split release. Waiting sucks sure, but in the end we're all adults, we can endure it even if we'd rather not. But for our devs toiling away in the AVN mines, they're banking a lot on a positive outcome once the update is released. The longer they go without any feedback, the bigger the stakes and the bigger the dread they might have got it wrong. Plus I'm sure it's nice to come out and enjoy some metaphorical sunlight once in a while, too.

Of course there's always the risk that the whole really is more than the sum of its parts and the divided Exhibition won't pack quite the same punch we've come to expect. That would also be demoralizing, and probably wouldn't be any better for the financials than a longer wait for a better end product would have been. Basically, I don't think there's a silver bullet that ensures the best outcome regardless of the facts on the ground.

But on the bright side, I think the facts on the ground are very favorable. Most of the commenters on poll seem willing to trust whichever decision they make, so I don't think TD and GIL can go too far wrong as long as they keep giving it their best effort. They've more than earned our good will, so hopefully they won't second guess themselves once they pick their poison.

 

[Darreau91]

Of course there's always the risk that the whole really is more than the sum of its parts and the divided Exhibition won't pack quite the same punch we've come to expect.

A split at the end of the free roam pre exhibition would make the most sense imo instead of splitting up the exhibition. If it’s a shorter update it is what is. The joys of branching storylines and longer dev times.

 

[lustforsex]

I'd actually say it's almost the opposite; I get the distinct impression TD is very nervous about the lengthy delay and is seeking reassurance that his instinct isn't going to harm the game or its fans. To me that's the most potent argument in favor of a split release. Waiting sucks sure, but in the end we're all adults, we can endure it even if we'd rather not. But for our devs toiling away in the AVN mines, they're banking a lot on a positive outcome once the update is released. The longer they go without any feedback, the bigger the stakes and the bigger the dread they might have got it wrong. Plus I'm sure it's nice to come out and enjoy some metaphorical sunlight once in a while, too.

Of course there's always the risk that the whole really is more than the sum of its parts and the divided Exhibition won't pack quite the same punch we've come to expect. That would also be demoralizing, and probably wouldn't be any better for the financials than a longer wait for a better end product would have been. Basically, I don't think there's a silver bullet that ensures the best outcome regardless of the facts on the ground.

But on the bright side, I think the facts on the ground are very favorable. Most of the commenters on poll seem willing to trust whichever decision they make, so I don't think TD and GIL can go too far wrong as long as they keep giving it their best effort. They've more than earned our good will, so hopefully they won't second guess themselves once they pick their poison.

That TD and GIL are bothered by this proves that PC is more than just a game to them and that they care about the opinions of everyone interested in their project. They actually have a huge amount of trust and as many have already noted, neither option would be a mistake on their part.

For example, if they decide not to split the update, they could release more frequent dev diaries or previews, or maybe come up with something new to keep people interested until the next update. I don't think it would have a huge impact on the speed of development (although I'm not a dev, so who knows ), but as a compromise, I think it would be a good option.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

View attachment 5107307
Dev Diary 98

Hello all, TD here.

Ch4Up6 currently sits at 2,350 static images, 77 animations, and 48,530 words.

Which works out to 124 statics, 17 animations, and 3,570 words since the last dev diary.

A drop off compared to the last dev diary, but not every static or animation is created equal (one of the animations has like 8+ people in it for example). As mentioned last time, GIL is balls deep in a group scene that is the culmination of several character threads unspooled over the free roam. I'd say we're about 70% done with that, currently at the tail end of the first of two endings. That napkin math may seem weird, but they share the same lead in and quite a few animations so I'm hoping by the next report this scene and then some will be behind us. The scene we're working on after will actually be the theoretical terminus for potentially ending the update, but GIL and I both remain ambivalent about what to do. There's quite a bit of content in this update already, enough to justify a release, and giving you guys something would be a boost to our morale. However, we also know completing the full exhibition in a single update will be a more satisfying experience. We might actually do a poll on this, not to definitively let you guys make the choice for us, but to satiate our curiosity on what the silent portion of our supporters would prefer. If we **did** end the update here, our utmost goal would be to get the next half out over 3-4 months.

Anyway, that's for future us. Right now we'll keep to the trenches. As always, thank you so much for your support and enabling us to do what we love doing.

That is quite a big update if it would take up to four extra months to finish everything (not counting delays).
Not a patron but i would prefer GIL and TD to keep the update as a whole thing since this will be a grand exhibition event. I believe breaking it in half would do more damage than good on the long run to the flow of the story and scenes.

 

[Leinad_Sevla]

It's not gonna be remotely close to 1/2 months more, do you have any extrapolation skills ?

Read the rest of my answers after this one.

 

[pinuz1]

That is quite a big update if it would take up to four extra months to finish everything (not counting delays).
Not a patron but i would prefer GIL and TD to keep the update as a whole thing since this will be a grand exhibition event. I believe breaking it in half would do more damage than good on the long run to the flow of the story and scenes.

I'm sorry but I don't see how splitting the update would damage the story. At the end of the day, the other half will release later on, and future people that play the game will not even notice it.

I already mentioned this, but releasing 1 half already, would result in getting feedback for the first half, boost morale, would remove the weight of worrying about taking too long on certain scenes. The main reason I want the update to be split, is because I feel like it'll lead to a better story overall. Even if some people might complain .

What would be the damage that breaking the update in half would do? It could lessen the impact of the whole exhibition for those reading the updates as soon as they release. I'm 100% sure I'd enjoy reading exhibition #3 in one big update more, than split in two, and have to wait a couple months to read the other half, but if I'm being honest, I don't think it'll be that big of a deal, there's also the concern of people forgetting what even happened last update because of the long time gap, so there's arguments for both sides as usual.

I say TD and Gil should just do what they consider the best play, at the end of the day they are the only ones that actually know how the story is looking so far for this upcoming update, and if it's worth being split or not.

 

[ename144]

I'm sorry but I don't see how splitting the update would damage the story. At the end of the day, the other half will release later on, and future people that play the game will not even notice it.

I already mentioned this, but releasing 1 half already, would result in getting feedback for the first half, boost morale, would remove the weight of worrying about taking too long on certain scenes. The main reason I want the update to be split, is because I feel like it'll lead to a better story overall. Even if some people might complain .

What would be the damage that breaking the update in half would do? It could lessen the impact of the whole exhibition for those reading the updates as soon as they release. I'm 100% sure I'd enjoy reading enhibition #3 in one big update more, than split in two, and have to wait a couple months to read the other half, but if I'm being honest, I don't think it'll be that big of a deal, there's also the concern of people forgetting what even happened last update because of the long time gap, so there's arguments for both sides as usual.

It doesn't work that way because discussing the latest update is a big part of being a fan. Imagine if the vast majority of the fans did actually wait to play the first half until the second half came out. The relative smattering of feedback would come across as a lukewarm response to the devs, who would probably kick themselves for releasing an inferior product most people refuse to play. Meanwhile if large numbers of fans play the update immediately, that's good for feedback, but not much fun for the holdouts who will never really participate in the feedback for that portion of the game. The only way to avoid the issue altogether is to release the update in one piece as originally intended, but then the people who just want something new to play are stuck in the doldrums and the devs are left chewing their nails. Someone's ox is going to get gored here, we just have to hope it's the smallest, least productive one. (And, you know, not mine! )

As far as the whole thing fitting together seamlessly once the second part is out, well, maybe. It really depends on how well the two halves stand on their own. Ideally you'd want each half to have a rising action/peak/falling action structure with a good variety of character moments and plenty of sex, which may or may not work out well depending on how TD was planning it. You can try to make the first half more setup to to the second half's payoff, but that can be tricky lest it just feel like a frustrating tease in the meantime (and there will be considerable meantime). Conversely, you can try to add more material to flesh out both halves, but then you need to make sure it doesn't feel repetitive or tedious when you play through it in one go.

It's a tough balancing act and - crucially - TD originally balanced it to be played in one sitting. If TD thinks it would be viable to split them then I trust his judgement, but if he likewise thinks it would be optimal to play it all at once then I trust that even more. Admittedly, I'm an easy sell since I dislike the idea of focusing even more on Kathleen's stage act, but I'd like to think I could still appreciate the problem even the second half was more to my liking.

I say TD and Gil should just do what they consider the best play, at the end of the day they are the only ones that actually know how the story is looking so far for this upcoming update, and if it's worth being split or not.

On that we agree, but it seems clear they themselves are wrestling with what the best play is. We'll see what they decide; they still have a couple weeks to mull it over and see which option feels most comfortable.

 

[Turret]

I'm sorry but I don't see how splitting the update would damage the story. At the end of the day, the other half will release later on, and future people that play the game will not even notice it.

I already mentioned this, but releasing 1 half already, would result in getting feedback for the first half, boost morale, would remove the weight of worrying about taking too long on certain scenes. The main reason I want the update to be split, is because I feel like it'll lead to a better story overall. Even if some people might complain .

What would be the damage that breaking the update in half would do? It could lessen the impact of the whole exhibition for those reading the updates as soon as they release. I'm 100% sure I'd enjoy reading enhibition #3 in one big update more, than split in two, and have to wait a couple months to read the other half, but if I'm being honest, I don't think it'll be that big of a deal, there's also the concern of people forgetting what even happened last update because of the long time gap, so there's arguments for both sides as usual.

I say TD and Gil should just do what they consider the best play, at the end of the day they are the only ones that actually know how the story is looking so far for this upcoming update, and if it's worth being split or not.

Hi!
I agree with you that the update should be split. We should think about the impact of even more waiting time on the players not as invested and following the game as closely as we/patrons do.
If you look at other game threads, a waiting time of a year or more hurts the game no matter the quality and size of the update or the fanatism of the fans.
Take e.g. Eva Kiss, very loyal fans and at one time the patrons voted for not splitting an update up, when the question was asked split or not. The result was a waiting time (due to several reasons) for new content of roughly a year, maybe even a bit more. It must have seriously hurt, no matter the otakus of ORS, because since that update Eva is very keen on lowering the update interval again, even engaging more helpers. I doubt she does this on a whim.

There is simply a dev time span, size of update and intervall of updating, which should be halfway consistent and not too long apart. We know that PC updates are always meaty and the currently 7 months are close to the latest update intervals due to the increasing complexity of the chapters. So we can rest asured that part one has quite a lot of content to play through for us. Especially since there is obviously a fitting cut off point, going by what we know.
Part 2 of the update, which will need another 3-4 months, maybe more, is definitely also packed with content. If TD and GIL are unsure about the size of that part, they could "raise" it to a full update of 6-7 months, if need be.

But my main point stands, if the update interval gets too long, too inconsistent, the game suffers and a year or more is simply too long when it comes to software/games.

 

[torpedogoat]

The entire discussion about whether to split the coming update is way out of proportion by now. It's not exactly an instance of

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but it's clearly driven by the same irrational motivation to discuss a detail to death not because it's so important but because everybody can understand it.

Guys, it's OK to participate in this discussion to feel you have a say in where this project is headed, but given how divided opinions are it's inevitable that a large part of the participants will see the opposite outcome of what they are arguing for implemented. Please try to be good losers and let things go. If you can't do this, it's not wise to even start participating.