VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Discrepancy]

Anyway, why discuss in these terms about an update which isn't an update? In fact this is just the first half of the Ch.4 Update 6 and the decision to split the update in two was a last minute thing, so it is highly probable that certain things will make sense (or will show their really importance) only when the second half of this update will be released; or in the future chapter of the game.

This is an update, I don't have data but I'm pretty sure most are satisfied with what is there, or are like me that thinks this was one of the best updates TD and Gil ever done, or even maybe the best.
Don't let some loud voices that didn't like it (they have every right to not like it though) dissuade you from trying it, I'm assuming you didn't yet.

 

[pinuz1]

It's that kind of thinking that made this update safe and boring as fuck. You got the keys to the kingdom. It is you who put him in this situation, not us. Maybe don't pull us in with a circus of depravity only to chicken out at the last minute. Why have you guys gone so soft on us after such a crazy and promising first week?

Because the more I think about the update, the more I dislike it, including the "big reveal" that fell flat on its nose before it had even started. It would have made more sense to me to tie Elias' membership directly to Felicia losing/winning the competition. And it would have helped had you painted him less as an adulterous asshole and more as guy who only seeks their connection to win the upcoming election. This would have made Felicia's betrayal more substantial and his threat more meaningful.

It was, it seems, more important though to spend 2-3 scenes on Sophia instead of driving the plot forward. Why? I've got no clue. She was nowhere near important as the other girls before but somehow needed to worm her way into Edwin's heart with her autistic demeanor. And when Edwin fucks her during the orgy, no one seem to care that he's actually dating Hana the ice queen, who's of course clueless about everything. There's not a even hint that any of the perverts will use the chance to score some brownie points with her or use the information to drive her out of the game.

So what does Hana do this update? Takes one step forward only to take two steps backwards. The window of getting corrupted by this club has pretty much closed for her at this point or it would have been telegraphed by now. No, instead of having her step up to the task for once she again turns into a blushing virgin who gives compliments like a first grader praising their teacher. Is that really all that's in store for her?

Imagine someone had interrupted their photo session to add much needed spice and conflict to this update. Or what if she had flipped the script on Kathleen and pulled on her nipples to make it clear she's not the pushover she used to be? You know, some kind of growth for a change that is influenced by how much she can rely on Edwin, for example. Showing only 1:1 sessions (in a sex club, no less) with no interruptions or twists feels like a missed opportunity to me.

Hey man I don't know what you expected from this update? it was just meant to be the free roam aspect prior to the exhibition, the corrupting Hana plotpoint it feels like you didn't pay attention, as her being fixated on the briefcase full of money more than hinted towards that.

About Sophia Gil already told us she's meant to be the most important side girl moving forward, so maybe I get you dislike her, but she got so many scenes exactly because of that.

I think the Elias and Felicia thing was well done and executed, I'll be honest I couldn't care less about Elias himself, if his spot in the club was tied to Felicia winning as you said it wouldn't change anything for me, why? because I see all other characters as plot devices for the protagonists of this game, those being Edwin, the 3 Carnations, Hana and Mina. I don't give a damn about any other character aside from them, and Elias helped spice up and finally give players a reason to give a fuck about Felicia, so far, everyone would agree she shouldn't win, at the end of the day, if she losses she still had a penthouse and money, hell, if even if she was unhappy there, the other 2 would be out in the streets if they lost (Rose would end up as a long time club whore now, which is something that would hurt her daughter, kinda like the Edwin/Vicky situation) so again, I don't really know what you expected out of the Elias thing? In the long term his character doesn't fucking matter if you wanted him to be less adulterous sorry for you, but ultimately he's being dragged into the story to make Felicia a more interesting character, not for him to be someone you should feel bad about or even what happens to him.

Something I could agree on, is that I don't see why Allison had so much protagonism this update? I read TD said something about her being tied to Edwin's character development in some way, but I haven't really seen what she has to offer to Edwin, I guess the knowledge that Carnations that win can still be called at any time? but was there really any need for her to have so much screen time ,

One of my biggest worries is we only have 1 week left, and in this week, Mina needs to complete her "list", Hana has to come to terms with what she wants to do with the club, Ian and grace situation, and finish developing the romantic relationship of Edwin and all 3 Carnations for their own paths, which so far I can only see Veronica working out. (not mentioning like the 2 or 3 different threesomes that have been hinted at) I wouldn't want the days to start feeling like in some other games, where the MC is doing 50 different things and fucking 20 times, and feels like each day is lasting 100 hours.

 

[Idontplay]

This is an update, I don't have data but I'm pretty sure most are satisfied with what is there, or are like me that thinks this was one of the best updates TD and Gil ever done, or even maybe the best.
Don't let some loud voices that didn't like it (they have every right to not like it though) dissuade you from trying it, I'm assuming you didn't yet.

I haven't, but I will: my head is too hard to let someone change my mind.

 

[TD1900]

I never said I knew. You as the author can write her into anything if you feel like, that's a fact (even if it doesn't make sense to me). I felt this would have been the last moment to give her enough time to get a foot in the door, to either let her flourish on her own terms or make her take a more passive role. I don't see any merit in her "loosing her innocence" without giving her a chance to succeed and to convince her colleagues of being a valuable asset. There's one week left (?) and you decided to dress her up in lingerie and make her listening to Kathleen's patronizing speech about women in the work place. Sure, blame her silence on drug. That will help her case.

A couple of people have mentioned there's only a week left, but I think some aren't considering how packed chapter 4 is. With "get Edwin close to every one" done, I believe there's enough time to do what I hope to do.

Maybe not though (I'm a hack), time will tell, but it's certainly not the last chance for Hana to "thrive."

Personally, I think Hana has showed some of the gumption you're making a case for in this very update, but your reading is your own and I cannot refute it .

Regardless, the night isn't over.

 

[Turret]

There is a 3rd option you forget... not partaking at all. Sophia represents something, for sure, but it might not be what you think.

Hi GIL!
You are right, that not doing anything in the orgy is the third option! I might misinterpret, that is certainly possible, but for me chosing Sophia represents the "grey" option, beside Allison being the "dark" choice and not doing anything at all the "white" one. Sophia is certainly not representing the club, but she has her own agenda and is a calcultating and eccentric person. We are remembered of it by e.g. her being aroused seeing what drug she created and her line about improving and enjoying the world.
Sophia is not the white option, but she is also not the dark one either, so I think she is the grey option.

Well your love for Sophia didn't go unnoticed. When I played the update I honestly thought for a second you had bribed them both to include her in as many scenes as possible. That's how useless I thought her scenes were. It smelled too much like that samurai analogy you came up with.

Thanks, man, you made my evening!
I am still trying to find a way to support TD and GIL without Patreon (which I loath and boycott) and you think I bought a storyline into the game. Thanks again that you feel I have this much influence.
I am simply happy to either predicted a lot of the paths TD and GIL planned for Sophia or that they might have found my theories a good addition. Sophia is a gem of character among an already strong cast. A cast near singular in AVN today.

 

[Ottoeight]

Anyway, why discuss in these terms about an update which isn't an update? In fact this is just the first half of the Ch.4 Update 6 and the decision to split the update in two was a last minute thing, so it is highly probable that certain things will make sense (or will show their really importance) only when the second half of this update will be released; or in the future chapter of the game.

I think your statement is a bit weird. Last update covered 2 days: I guess it was a double update, in your opinion.

Anyway, and most importantly: everything that happens in an update makes more sense after you play the following updates - it has always been so.

This is why I always recommend to play the whole game from scratch after you finish an update: this is what I've always done. And since it takes so long for an update to come out it makes even more sense.

 

[sunaboz]

Before I respond to your later post I need to reply to this one:

(...)
I would have taken his words more seriously if we hadn't seen him whoring around while doing drugs mere minutes before the revelation. It sounded to me like he was more mad she did it behind his back than doing it all. But I guess he just another hypocrite then. I expected more flexibility from a man who likes his ass getting toyed with.

Elias is less hypocritical than most of the people in the club:

Elias "I will admit there was a time where I thought otherwise, but I learned a lot about the possessiveness from the mother of my children."
elias "There are simply some people in this world you can't control and I respect Felicia enough to not attempt to put a one-sided collar on her."

And we knew about their "understanding" almost from the start.

My husband's not interested in having sex with me like he used to, but he still has his needs and every few months I'm the most convenient nearby hole he can bend over the kitchen table and fuck. If the nanny isn't around, that is."

Knowing that and knowing Felicia's eagerness to use her husband's black credit card it's not hard to put 2+2 together that Elias must have known Felicia would scratch the itch at various clubs or after restaurant dinners (he must have seen billing notifications). He didn't care though as long as it didn't bite him in the ass. The thing is Felicia is a trophy wife, she must look pretty, be a good conversationalist and shut her mouth when Elias doesn't want her to speak. Her becoming a slut for all VIPs to see is not something Elias could approve and it shouldn't be surprising. The best he can do now is grin and bear it, he can't show any weakness.

As for why I know he's less of a hypocrite than most other people there I refer you to this bit:

eric "You know, I kinda feel bad for your husband..."
"Eric moved forward and equipped himself with a more hushed tone."
eric "The club is one thing, but now you're gallivanting at large with a brat?"
fel "Well, Mr. Waylon, you're married too. You know the score."
eric "It's not the same game, Mrs. Ford."

Basically, judging by Eric Waylon's attitude them fucking everything that moved was OK but when their wives do it, it's not.

BTW, him coming to the club has been foreshadowed in the first release of the game:

Edwin: "What does your husband do? You're fairly well-off, right?"
Felicia: "Let's just say, his portfolio is large enough that he would fit in well here."
Edwin: "...he's not actually a member, right?"
Felicia: "Pffthaha, no. No. No. No. He's too serious for a place like this. Though..."
Felicia: "Who REALLY knows the secrets of another person's heart? No one in your life would expect to find you working at a brothel, would they?"
Felicia: "My husband, however? What a surprise that would be!"

And it would have helped had you painted him less as an adulterous asshole and more as guy who only seeks their connection to win the upcoming election. This would have made Felicia's betrayal more substantial and his threat more meaningful.

I strongly disagree and you're again projecting. Elias isn't presented as an adulterous asshole, he's in fact presented as an approachable guy, someone Edwin could become friends with. During the interview he put on a mask, here he had no reason to be nice to a nobody like Edwin. He saved him big at least two times during their short encounter - first when he spared him from massaging that senator prick and second when he spared him from cocaine. I don't see how he could have an angle here so I'm assuming he's not such a bad guy (and Edwin comments on it, e.g. by saying that he can see why Felicia might have liked him once). He was also very nice to all the whores (Harper for example)while "impolite" (to say the least) to Jim for example, even though someone like him could help him win the election while Harper could do nothing good.

And I don't see how what you're suggesting could make Felicia's "betrayal" more meaningful.

 

[slightchance]

I strongly disagree and you're again projecting. Elias isn't presented as an adulterous asshole, he's in fact presented as an approachable guy, someone Edwin could become friends with.

When I wrote that I was thinking more about her POV, not Edwin's. He's the reason she signed up for the games, as far as I remember, because he doesn't care for her as a person and even less so about her dreams despite having the necessary pocket change. And the trophy wife thing? Well I don't have that kind of money laying around to ever know how important such a position really is. It's something I only ever hear about in the movies. Too abstract of a concept for me.

 

[X2JZcf]

Something I could agree on, is that I don't see why Allison had so much protagonism this update? I read TD said something about her being tied to Edwin's character development in some way, but I haven't really seen what she has to offer to Edwin

You can view her as one of the temptresses guiding the protagonist toward a particular kind of behavior. If in the previous update Andrea and her scene served this role, here we see a "double down" with Allisson, she represents the natural next step for the protagonist. From this perspective, choosing Allisson leads down an animalistic path, actively embracing the club's decadence.
In this framework, Sophia offers the viewpoint of an observer and one of the key orchestrators of this "animal world" through her drugs and experiments. However, it’s still unclear how much we can separate Abel from Sophia: does she embody purely the "researcher" aspect, as suggested by her comments about hating all these people, or is she merely opposed to the specific direction of their activities, such as the Viagra-like analogues, rather than something more fundamental.
Kaitlyn would then serve as the complementary half of this guidance: her "games" and "experiments" are driven by her own sensuality and sadism, which she seeks to awaken in Edwin as well.
Hana and her scene with stacks of cash clearly symbolize greed, and I believe she should push August back toward vice, not the other way around. After all, gaining a daughter gave him the impetus for reflection and "redemption."
Mina fits perfect into this structure if Edwin follows Kaitlyn’s path, becoming the first recipient of his own experiments.

 

[slightchance]

Personally, I think Hana has showed some of the gumption you're making a case for in this very update, but your reading is your own and I cannot refute it .

I will stop spamming replies her for a while to let others voice their positive feedback but could you be so kind and tell me which lines you are referring to?

 

[GamingSavant]

I really don't think her content is as front loaded as you think. She actually has less then other girls if you remove the sadistic stuff or sharing her, which I don't enjoy. And with her having two routes, romance and sadistic, her content always feels short, quick, an afterthought, I mean during week 3 she didn't even get her own dedicated update, she shared wirh other girls, where everyone else got dedicated updates with full dates, longer scenes, etc.

So to me, it feels like she has been neglected, others may not feel that way, thats just how I do.

"If you remove the sadistic stuff or sharing her" brother what do you think the point of this game is? And there's literally ONE sharing scene with her involving Ian and that's only if you pick him to cover for Rose's loan payments. If we go by just pure events the only person who has more in the memory bank is Veronica, and guess how many penetration scenes she has, let alone scenes where her and Edwin are the focus point?

Like you can feel whatever you want. I want more Veronica content with Edwin, but I'm not gonna go saying "Man they really are just making Veronica a side character disguised as a main heroine."

Rosalind was literally the plot device used to lure Edwin into working for the Club: a sad, desperate, and lonely mother trying to raise her child.

 

[hopefuldoc]

Windows defender just deleted my pale carnations.exe file and said it was a trojan. what the hell?

 

[MagicMan753]

"If you remove the sadistic stuff or sharing her" brother what do you think the point of this game is? And there's literally ONE sharing scene with her involving Ian and that's only if you pick him to cover for Rose's loan payments. If we go by just pure events the only person who has more in the memory bank is Veronica, and guess how many penetration scenes she has, let alone scenes where her and Edwin are the focus point?

Like you can feel whatever you want. I want more Veronica content with Edwin, but I'm not gonna go saying "Man they really are just making Veronica a side character disguised as a main heroine."

Rosalind was literally the plot device used to lure Edwin into working for the Club: a sad, desperate, and lonely mother trying to raise her child.

So just cause this game has a focus on the club, automatically we must accept everything. So I guess all girls should be chores. And by the way, there is technically two, during second exhibition you could choose Ian to participate instead, think of how much better the scene could of been and possibly a bit longer if they didn't do that scene and just extended mc scene with her.

During Interview you have to use her and be sadistic to get sexual content, full deal unlocks more sexual stuff like in parking lot and pictures. Last update full deal got non stop blowjob, so romance scene got shorter. So it affects more than just ONE scene for sharing, etc. as you say.

And you can't judge someone's feelings, on how they feel, this is just how I feel right now, with her feeling more side character, I want better for romance path. Just like you have feelings on Veronica, I do dor Rose, you can't judge how someone feels. So just stop responding and let's move on, cause we clearly won't see eye to eye. Hope you have a good day.

 

[GamingSavant]

So just cause this game has a focus on the club, automatically we must accept everything. So I guess all girls should be chores. And by the way, there is technically two, during second exhibition you could choose Ian to participate instead, think of how much better the scene could of been and possibly a bit longer if they didn't do that scene and just extended mc scene with her.

During Interview you have to use her and be sadistic to get sexual content, full deal unlocks more sexual stuff like in parking lot and pictures. Last update full deal got non stop blowjob, so romance scene got shorter. So it affects more than just ONE scene for sharing, etc. as you say.

And you can't judge someone's feelings, on how they feel, this is just how I feel right now, with her feeling more side character, I want better for romance path. Just like you have feelings on Veronica, I do dor Rose, you can't judge how someone feels. So just stop responding and let's move on, cause we clearly won't see eye to eye. Hope you have a good day.

Right, one last thing: I already told you you can feel whatever you want, but you are in a public space. If you don't want people engaging with what you said and risk them disagreeing with you, then you should stick to DMs or just, let the thoughts stay just thoughts, idk. And my feelings on Veronica scenes are just a case of "can't wait for more", not "hey I'm gonna just outright put my thoughts out and just make them sound like they're the truth cuz I feel left out cuz this isn't about what I, the individual player, want."

You can't just guilt trip the creators into thinking your vision on things is how it should be, nor should you spread around falsehoods and act like they're true; that's just selfish behavior. You said "Hey I think you don't realize how little content she actually has" when you first responded to me, and I had to immediately point out that, "Actually, Rosalind has probably more content than most of the girls in the entire game, and being a single mother similar to Edwin's is why he initially became fixated on her."

And yes, to get the sexual content in the initial interview you have to be sadistic and mean to her. And that also locks you out of her entire route for the rest of the game.

It's almost like the devs wanted to show that being a selfish person at the expense of others has consequences.

 

[TD1900]

I will stop spamming replies her for a while to let others voice their positive feedback but could you be so kind and tell me which lines you are referring to?

Listen, you've been part of part of the discussions in this thread for a long time now and I take what you said for what it is: honest criticism. I appreciate that, even if I push back partly out of defensiveness and partly to process the criticism leveled. I look forward to releases because I enjoy seeing the thread active again and, to be honest, that includes this kind of back and forth - but I get it's impossible to have a conversation when 4 or 5 people are quoting you.

Still, thank you for taking the time to voice your thoughts. It wasn't merely just "update small" or "I'm disappointed", there was consideration behind them.

As for my Hana defense, I was hoping her (rapid) acceptance of the place would portend what's to come. Stuff like quickly coming around on the Kimber thing, her becoming more friendly with August, and even her not outright rejecting Kat. Then there's the exhibition, of which is the big TBD.

To go back to an earlier suggestion you made, we actually did consider having Edwin and Hana interrupted during the photo shoot, but I shelved that complication. So, good instincts, but the way I saw it, it amounted to a "get out of here" or an "oops, sorry" as it's not like any of the patrons would have anything on Hana or Edwin for fucking around - or any reason to make a big deal out of it. It is, perhaps, a wasted opportunity for a small character moment though.

 

[GamingSavant]

A couple of people have mentioned there's only a week left, but I think some aren't considering how packed chapter 4 is. With "get Edwin close to every one" done, I believe there's enough time to do what I hope to do.

Maybe not though (I'm a hack), time will tell, but it's certainly not the last chance for Hana to "thrive."

Personally, I think Hana has showed some of the gumption you're making a case for in this very update, but your reading is your own and I cannot refute it .

Regardless, the night isn't over.

Just make this background art a reality and I'll be happy; I've been a good boy who hasn't broken hearts, I promise.

 

[HDussen]

- because our buddy Mr Bubu most likely is going to update his walkthrough in the meanwhile;

That might take a bit longer than usual this time around:
"My family is relocating and moving abroad on a short notice. This was not really planned and the next months are going to be very busy for us. […] I don't know how much free time I'll have after we move and settle down" (from public Patreon post on the 1st of September)

 

[schinushka]

Spoiler: Dalia

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Spoiler: so close

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[GamingSavant]

Spoiler: so close

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View attachment 5296440

brings me to something I remember before based on what some of the Girls said to Edwin about how he hasn't chosen a "Favorite girl" yet, which from what I understand is first dibs/priorities on one of the prostitutes outside exhibition hours when they aren't booked; I hope that comes around to some extent cuz a few of them are nice enough that I wouldn't mind seeing more scenes with. As much as I think Hana and Mina are my absolute favorites (and possibly most likely to have normal functioning relationships with Edwin when this is all over), other girls that aren't the main heroines are nice too.

 

[slightchance]

And I don't see how what you're suggesting could make Felicia's "betrayal" more meaningful.

My idea was that if Felicia wins the games, his chance of taking a high office would go up in smokes, at least for the time being. And she would be untouchable with friends in high places. Her whoring around would a have direct impact on his future endeavors beyond the act of adultery, which was, according to you, something he was already aware of happening. A trophy wife serving as a roadblock for his aspirations. I'd call that irony. But maybe I am overselling it and it can't be done.

I appreciate that, even if I push back partly out of defensiveness and partly to process the criticism leveled.

LMAO you have nothing to apologize for. I love you guys. Writing his fucking hard and I wouldn't be here if hadn't a certain level of respect and admiration for your work.

Still, thank you for taking the time to voice your thoughts. It wasn't merely just "update small" or "I'm disappointed", there was consideration behind them.

Not always as much as I want there to be but rage is a hell of anesthetic.

As for my Hana defense, I was hoping her (rapid) acceptance of the place would portend what's to come. Stuff like quickly coming around on the Kimber thing, her becoming more friendly with August, and even her not outright rejecting Kat. Then there's the exhibition, of which is the big TBD.

This I had anticipated. You not feeding me a direct line, I mean. Slippery fella. Would have loved to compare notes...

It's the one aspect that didn't pass my vibe check. Felt like she still wasn't in the right head space nor that she had many opportunities to show a different side of her. The things already in place hadn't convinced me yet that she's capable of seeing the club in a different light.

But you're right, having Edwin shoot her topless when one "passerby" decides to play the fly on the wall could have lead to a handful of interesting outcomes. Does she allow him to watch silently or has she found a new diplomatic voice to make her admirer leave the place without much fuss?