VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[TD1900]

It's that kind of thinking that made this update safe and boring as fuck. You got the keys to the kingdom. It is you who put him in this situation, not us. Maybe don't pull us in with a circus of depravity only to chicken out at the last minute. Why have you guys gone so soft on us after such a crazy and promising first week?

You make some assumptions that are difficult to unravel without spoiling too much, so I'll just ask, why do you assume it won't get back to Hana? Every encounter is flagged.

What gives you the impression Hana can't or won't be corrupted? What do you think the arc she started on updates ago is about?

Hana is like the most central heroine in the game, with arguably a more compelling character arc than Edwin. Maybe my imagination is more limited than yours, but she won't be a wallflower. I promise.

Besides that, all I will add is that I hope exhibition 3 proper satisfies what you're looking for.

 

[GIL3D]

It's that kind of thinking that made this update safe and boring as fuck. You got the keys to the kingdom. It is you who put him in this situation, not us. Maybe don't pull us in with a circus of depravity only to chicken out at the last minute. Why have you guys gone so soft on us after such a crazy and promising first week?

I understand your frustration stems from passion but please... No one is forcing you to play the game. What "crazy" things happened in week one anyways? In Unicron's own words, "you exaggerate".

It would have made more sense to me to tie Elias' membership directly to Felicia losing/winning the competition.

No, this route and the moment it created is ten times better than your suggestion in my opinion. It allowed us to learn more about how the Club actually operates and its true nature. I rebuke.

It was, it seems, more important though to spend 2-3 scenes on Sophia instead of driving the plot forward. Why? I've got no clue.

If you don't like her character, that's fine, but I think you're confused about what it means to move the plot forward in this tale.

And when Edwin fucks her during the orgy, no one seem to care that he's actually dating Hana the ice queen, who's of course clueless about everything. There's not a even hint that any of the perverts will use the chance to score some brownie points with her or use the information to drive her out of the game.

You should know better than to expect instant consequences of your actions with us. We don't do that here.

...Or what if she had flipped the script on Kathleen and pulled on her nipples to make it clear she's not the pushover she used to be? You know, some kind of growth for a change that is influenced by how much she can rely on Edwin, for example.

We see character growth differently. You're suggesting almost a 180º in days. TD knows better.

E.g. Sophia is one of the most important characters in the game on routes not focused on total corruption and moral decay, even if she is not always hovering around Edwin. Also you seem to overlook that Edwin does not necessarily need to date Hana, there are routes where Edwin is dating e.g. Felicia, Mina, Rosi or no one when the orgy happens.
Besides it seems you missed the point that choosing Sophia means you are not really part of that orgy around them. Choosing Sophia is you two setting a counterpoint to what happens there.

There is a 3rd option you forget... not partaking at all. Sophia represents something, for sure, but it might not be what you think.

 

[slightchance]

That is fully ok that you want to play that routes, but there is also content for those liking less corruption and wanting to play an Edwin with a rest of conscience intact.

Not sure why you believe just because you got your cake that the other routes where in any way satisfying. How would you even know?

E.g. Sophia is one of the most important characters in the game on routes not focused on total corruption and moral decay

Well your love for Sophia didn't go unnoticed. When I played the update I honestly thought for a second you had bribed them both to include her in as many scenes as possible. That's how useless I thought her scenes were. It smelled too much like that samurai analogy you came up with.

 

[sunaboz]

(...)
Am I the one who failed to write Hana into a better position? Is that the status quo she has to live with until Kathleen buys her out or comes up with a different retirement plan? Why do M&J not strengthen her position and pretend nothing bad could happen? (...)

It's a fail only in your mind because the script doesn't align with your expectations. Just so happens that Hana's position changed only recently, with time her position might change but you can't expect her to suddenly become someone equal to Kathleen for example. She has no connections, she has no education or achievements of her own. Expecting Hana to have a better position from the start is just stupid. The author of the story has set it up in a way that it makes things interesting and has many potential developments, you can be sure it wasn't just for giggles nor to annoy you.

Edwin has been in the club only for a month and Hana's promotion is even more recent so expecting her position to strengthen significantly at this point of the story is ridiculous.

Potato banana. Edwin doesn't seem all to convinced about this arrangement, dropping here and there lines about what she would say about him having sex with someone not directly tied to his duties in the club (e.g Allison). Treating it like a blank check to fuck whoever might not be her idea of...ah what the hell, you're probably right. She's fucking gullible, why would she even care.

No shit. The thing is, game being a proper CYOA visual novel (i.e. the best kind) we don't have our hands tied and we can think one thing at one point and another at another. Edwin might think he wants relationship with Hana and agrees to it but when he sees someone like Allison or Sophia he just can't help himself, consequences be damned. Simple as that. His infidelity would have a much bigger impact if they would be in a long relationship but it's an even more recent thing than Hana's promotion so everything is nicely logical. TD for real is a skilled writer, you failing to see that reflects badly on you.

 

[MagicMan753]

What? Rose has some of the most prominent, front-loaded content in the game. She's the first branching path you can enter, she's the first official carnation you get introduced to (Felicia doesn't count imo), and for a while she had the most scenes in the Memory viewer. You can be sad she didn't get much this update but don't act like she's being neglected lol.

I really don't think her content is as front loaded as you think. She actually has less then other girls if you remove the sadistic stuff or sharing her, which I don't enjoy. And with her having two routes, romance and sadistic, her content always feels short, quick, an afterthought, I mean during week 3 she didn't even get her own dedicated update, she shared wirh other girls, where everyone else got dedicated updates with full dates, longer scenes, etc.

So to me, it feels like she has been neglected, others may not feel that way, thats just how I do.

Honestly that's what one should expect in the first few days of a release, some people that only boot up the game, press the fast forward button, and only play the sex scenes, if their favorite girl doesn't get something then it was bad and leave a comment on how they are dissapointed or it was "too short" etc.

To go off my comment above and previous posts, I really hope you and the other guy aren't referring to me. I didn't skip anything, I play it all. And look it may come across like I hate the devs or this is the worst update, I really did enjoy it, it just hurts to see the Rose thing after she really didn't get her own update like others, romance path gets split with sadistic and we really don't get any moments even small while the other two at least have that.( At least from what I remember, missed something as someone pointed out probably)

And I know both devs are working hard and I am trying to have hope everything will work out, Rose will get the love she deserves and long scenes or content, etc. its just hard when too many games recently have done the same thing with my favorite girls. I am just tired of getting burned on my fav girls in other games getting shafted, feeling like a side girl or the short end of the stick.

But like I said I guess I just got to believe in the devs, hopefully it will work out, but its just hard not to feel letdown right now.

But still it is a great job Td and Gil, and I am not trying to be this attacking about his issue, so sorry if it came across that way, I just want better for Rose. Do keep up the great work, cause you are do amazing. Now, I will move on from this subject for now, until next update, cause no point in bringing up same discussion.

 

[slightchance]

We see character growth differently. You're suggesting almost a 180º in days. TD knows better.

Do you believe character growth is a linear function? You put x in and then you can predict where the character will end up at point y? I know that every media has its limit and that results shouldn't exceed the readers exceptions of the established framework but don't make it sound like there aren't any wildcards like upbringing, environment, hormone imbalance or drugs that will alter a characters trajectory momentarily or forever, which can also make storytelling more compelling.
They say don't let the intrusive thoughts win but no one will deny they exist.

You make some assumptions that are difficult to unravel without spoiling too much, so I'll just ask, why do you assume it won't get back to Hana?

I never said I knew. You, as the author, can write her into anything if you feel like, that's a fact (even if it doesn't make sense to me). I felt this would have been the last moment to give her enough time to get a foot in the door, to either let her flourish on her own terms or make her take a more passive role. I don't see any merit in her "loosing her innocence" without giving her a chance to succeed and to convince her colleagues of being a valuable asset. There's one week left (?) and you decided to dress her up in lingerie and make her listening to Kathleen's patronizing speech about women in the work place. Sure, blame her silence on drugs. That will help her case.

 

[Idontplay]

Anyway, why discuss in these terms about an update which isn't an update? In fact this is just the first half of the Ch.4 Update 6 and the decision to split the update in two was a last minute thing, so it is highly probable that certain things will make sense (or will show their really importance) only when the second half of this update will be released; or in the future chapter of the game.

 

[Discrepancy]

Anyway, why discuss in these terms about an update which isn't an update? In fact this is just the first half of the Ch.4 Update 6 and the decision to split the update in two was a last minute thing, so it is highly probable that certain things will make sense (or will show their really importance) only when the second half of this update will be released; or in the future chapter of the game.

This is an update, I don't have data but I'm pretty sure most are satisfied with what is there, or are like me that thinks this was one of the best updates TD and Gil ever done, or even maybe the best.
Don't let some loud voices that didn't like it (they have every right to not like it though) dissuade you from trying it, I'm assuming you didn't yet.

 

[pinuz1]

It's that kind of thinking that made this update safe and boring as fuck. You got the keys to the kingdom. It is you who put him in this situation, not us. Maybe don't pull us in with a circus of depravity only to chicken out at the last minute. Why have you guys gone so soft on us after such a crazy and promising first week?

Because the more I think about the update, the more I dislike it, including the "big reveal" that fell flat on its nose before it had even started. It would have made more sense to me to tie Elias' membership directly to Felicia losing/winning the competition. And it would have helped had you painted him less as an adulterous asshole and more as guy who only seeks their connection to win the upcoming election. This would have made Felicia's betrayal more substantial and his threat more meaningful.

It was, it seems, more important though to spend 2-3 scenes on Sophia instead of driving the plot forward. Why? I've got no clue. She was nowhere near important as the other girls before but somehow needed to worm her way into Edwin's heart with her autistic demeanor. And when Edwin fucks her during the orgy, no one seem to care that he's actually dating Hana the ice queen, who's of course clueless about everything. There's not a even hint that any of the perverts will use the chance to score some brownie points with her or use the information to drive her out of the game.

So what does Hana do this update? Takes one step forward only to take two steps backwards. The window of getting corrupted by this club has pretty much closed for her at this point or it would have been telegraphed by now. No, instead of having her step up to the task for once she again turns into a blushing virgin who gives compliments like a first grader praising their teacher. Is that really all that's in store for her?

Imagine someone had interrupted their photo session to add much needed spice and conflict to this update. Or what if she had flipped the script on Kathleen and pulled on her nipples to make it clear she's not the pushover she used to be? You know, some kind of growth for a change that is influenced by how much she can rely on Edwin, for example. Showing only 1:1 sessions (in a sex club, no less) with no interruptions or twists feels like a missed opportunity to me.

Hey man I don't know what you expected from this update? it was just meant to be the free roam aspect prior to the exhibition, the corrupting Hana plotpoint it feels like you didn't pay attention, as her being fixated on the briefcase full of money more than hinted towards that.

About Sophia Gil already told us she's meant to be the most important side girl moving forward, so maybe I get you dislike her, but she got so many scenes exactly because of that.

I think the Elias and Felicia thing was well done and executed, I'll be honest I couldn't care less about Elias himself, if his spot in the club was tied to Felicia winning as you said it wouldn't change anything for me, why? because I see all other characters as plot devices for the protagonists of this game, those being Edwin, the 3 Carnations, Hana and Mina. I don't give a damn about any other character aside from them, and Elias helped spice up and finally give players a reason to give a fuck about Felicia, so far, everyone would agree she shouldn't win, at the end of the day, if she losses she still had a penthouse and money, hell, if even if she was unhappy there, the other 2 would be out in the streets if they lost (Rose would end up as a long time club whore now, which is something that would hurt her daughter, kinda like the Edwin/Vicky situation) so again, I don't really know what you expected out of the Elias thing? In the long term his character doesn't fucking matter if you wanted him to be less adulterous sorry for you, but ultimately he's being dragged into the story to make Felicia a more interesting character, not for him to be someone you should feel bad about or even what happens to him.

Something I could agree on, is that I don't see why Allison had so much protagonism this update? I read TD said something about her being tied to Edwin's character development in some way, but I haven't really seen what she has to offer to Edwin, I guess the knowledge that Carnations that win can still be called at any time? but was there really any need for her to have so much screen time ,

One of my biggest worries is we only have 1 week left, and in this week, Mina needs to complete her "list", Hana has to come to terms with what she wants to do with the club, Ian and grace situation, and finish developing the romantic relationship of Edwin and all 3 Carnations for their own paths, which so far I can only see Veronica working out. (not mentioning like the 2 or 3 different threesomes that have been hinted at) I wouldn't want the days to start feeling like in some other games, where the MC is doing 50 different things and fucking 20 times, and feels like each day is lasting 100 hours.

 

[Idontplay]

This is an update, I don't have data but I'm pretty sure most are satisfied with what is there, or are like me that thinks this was one of the best updates TD and Gil ever done, or even maybe the best.
Don't let some loud voices that didn't like it (they have every right to not like it though) dissuade you from trying it, I'm assuming you didn't yet.

I haven't, but I will: my head is too hard to let someone change my mind.

 

[TD1900]

I never said I knew. You as the author can write her into anything if you feel like, that's a fact (even if it doesn't make sense to me). I felt this would have been the last moment to give her enough time to get a foot in the door, to either let her flourish on her own terms or make her take a more passive role. I don't see any merit in her "loosing her innocence" without giving her a chance to succeed and to convince her colleagues of being a valuable asset. There's one week left (?) and you decided to dress her up in lingerie and make her listening to Kathleen's patronizing speech about women in the work place. Sure, blame her silence on drug. That will help her case.

A couple of people have mentioned there's only a week left, but I think some aren't considering how packed chapter 4 is. With "get Edwin close to every one" done, I believe there's enough time to do what I hope to do.

Maybe not though (I'm a hack), time will tell, but it's certainly not the last chance for Hana to "thrive."

Personally, I think Hana has showed some of the gumption you're making a case for in this very update, but your reading is your own and I cannot refute it .

Regardless, the night isn't over.

 

[Turret]

There is a 3rd option you forget... not partaking at all. Sophia represents something, for sure, but it might not be what you think.

Hi GIL!
You are right, that not doing anything in the orgy is the third option! I might misinterpret, that is certainly possible, but for me chosing Sophia represents the "grey" option, beside Allison being the "dark" choice and not doing anything at all the "white" one. Sophia is certainly not representing the club, but she has her own agenda and is a calcultating and eccentric person. We are remembered of it by e.g. her being aroused seeing what drug she created and her line about improving and enjoying the world.
Sophia is not the white option, but she is also not the dark one either, so I think she is the grey option.

Well your love for Sophia didn't go unnoticed. When I played the update I honestly thought for a second you had bribed them both to include her in as many scenes as possible. That's how useless I thought her scenes were. It smelled too much like that samurai analogy you came up with.

Thanks, man, you made my evening!
I am still trying to find a way to support TD and GIL without Patreon (which I loath and boycott) and you think I bought a storyline into the game. Thanks again that you feel I have this much influence.
I am simply happy to either predicted a lot of the paths TD and GIL planned for Sophia or that they might have found my theories a good addition. Sophia is a gem of character among an already strong cast. A cast near singular in AVN today.

 

[Ottoeight]

Anyway, why discuss in these terms about an update which isn't an update? In fact this is just the first half of the Ch.4 Update 6 and the decision to split the update in two was a last minute thing, so it is highly probable that certain things will make sense (or will show their really importance) only when the second half of this update will be released; or in the future chapter of the game.

I think your statement is a bit weird. Last update covered 2 days: I guess it was a double update, in your opinion.

Anyway, and most importantly: everything that happens in an update makes more sense after you play the following updates - it has always been so.

This is why I always recommend to play the whole game from scratch after you finish an update: this is what I've always done. And since it takes so long for an update to come out it makes even more sense.

 

[sunaboz]

Before I respond to your later post I need to reply to this one:

(...)
I would have taken his words more seriously if we hadn't seen him whoring around while doing drugs mere minutes before the revelation. It sounded to me like he was more mad she did it behind his back than doing it all. But I guess he just another hypocrite then. I expected more flexibility from a man who likes his ass getting toyed with.

Elias is less hypocritical than most of the people in the club:

Elias "I will admit there was a time where I thought otherwise, but I learned a lot about the possessiveness from the mother of my children."
elias "There are simply some people in this world you can't control and I respect Felicia enough to not attempt to put a one-sided collar on her."

And we knew about their "understanding" almost from the start.

My husband's not interested in having sex with me like he used to, but he still has his needs and every few months I'm the most convenient nearby hole he can bend over the kitchen table and fuck. If the nanny isn't around, that is."

Knowing that and knowing Felicia's eagerness to use her husband's black credit card it's not hard to put 2+2 together that Elias must have known Felicia would scratch the itch at various clubs or after restaurant dinners (he must have seen billing notifications). He didn't care though as long as it didn't bite him in the ass. The thing is Felicia is a trophy wife, she must look pretty, be a good conversationalist and shut her mouth when Elias doesn't want her to speak. Her becoming a slut for all VIPs to see is not something Elias could approve and it shouldn't be surprising. The best he can do now is grin and bear it, he can't show any weakness.

As for why I know he's less of a hypocrite than most other people there I refer you to this bit:

eric "You know, I kinda feel bad for your husband..."
"Eric moved forward and equipped himself with a more hushed tone."
eric "The club is one thing, but now you're gallivanting at large with a brat?"
fel "Well, Mr. Waylon, you're married too. You know the score."
eric "It's not the same game, Mrs. Ford."

Basically, judging by Eric Waylon's attitude them fucking everything that moved was OK but when their wives do it, it's not.

BTW, him coming to the club has been foreshadowed in the first release of the game:

Edwin: "What does your husband do? You're fairly well-off, right?"
Felicia: "Let's just say, his portfolio is large enough that he would fit in well here."
Edwin: "...he's not actually a member, right?"
Felicia: "Pffthaha, no. No. No. No. He's too serious for a place like this. Though..."
Felicia: "Who REALLY knows the secrets of another person's heart? No one in your life would expect to find you working at a brothel, would they?"
Felicia: "My husband, however? What a surprise that would be!"

And it would have helped had you painted him less as an adulterous asshole and more as guy who only seeks their connection to win the upcoming election. This would have made Felicia's betrayal more substantial and his threat more meaningful.

I strongly disagree and you're again projecting. Elias isn't presented as an adulterous asshole, he's in fact presented as an approachable guy, someone Edwin could become friends with. During the interview he put on a mask, here he had no reason to be nice to a nobody like Edwin. He saved him big at least two times during their short encounter - first when he spared him from massaging that senator prick and second when he spared him from cocaine. I don't see how he could have an angle here so I'm assuming he's not such a bad guy (and Edwin comments on it, e.g. by saying that he can see why Felicia might have liked him once). He was also very nice to all the whores (Harper for example)while "impolite" (to say the least) to Jim for example, even though someone like him could help him win the election while Harper could do nothing good.

And I don't see how what you're suggesting could make Felicia's "betrayal" more meaningful.

 

[slightchance]

I strongly disagree and you're again projecting. Elias isn't presented as an adulterous asshole, he's in fact presented as an approachable guy, someone Edwin could become friends with.

When I wrote that I was thinking more about her POV, not Edwin's. He's the reason she signed up for the games, as far as I remember, because he doesn't care for her as a person and even less so about her dreams despite having the necessary pocket change. And the trophy wife thing? Well I don't have that kind of money laying around to ever know how important such a position really is. It's something I only ever hear about in the movies. Too abstract of a concept for me.

 

[X2JZcf]

Something I could agree on, is that I don't see why Allison had so much protagonism this update? I read TD said something about her being tied to Edwin's character development in some way, but I haven't really seen what she has to offer to Edwin

You can view her as one of the temptresses guiding the protagonist toward a particular kind of behavior. If in the previous update Andrea and her scene served this role, here we see a "double down" with Allisson, she represents the natural next step for the protagonist. From this perspective, choosing Allisson leads down an animalistic path, actively embracing the club's decadence.
In this framework, Sophia offers the viewpoint of an observer and one of the key orchestrators of this "animal world" through her drugs and experiments. However, it’s still unclear how much we can separate Abel from Sophia: does she embody purely the "researcher" aspect, as suggested by her comments about hating all these people, or is she merely opposed to the specific direction of their activities, such as the Viagra-like analogues, rather than something more fundamental.
Kaitlyn would then serve as the complementary half of this guidance: her "games" and "experiments" are driven by her own sensuality and sadism, which she seeks to awaken in Edwin as well.
Hana and her scene with stacks of cash clearly symbolize greed, and I believe she should push August back toward vice, not the other way around. After all, gaining a daughter gave him the impetus for reflection and "redemption."
Mina fits perfect into this structure if Edwin follows Kaitlyn’s path, becoming the first recipient of his own experiments.

 

[slightchance]

Personally, I think Hana has showed some of the gumption you're making a case for in this very update, but your reading is your own and I cannot refute it .

I will stop spamming replies her for a while to let others voice their positive feedback but could you be so kind and tell me which lines you are referring to?

 

[GamingSavant]

I really don't think her content is as front loaded as you think. She actually has less then other girls if you remove the sadistic stuff or sharing her, which I don't enjoy. And with her having two routes, romance and sadistic, her content always feels short, quick, an afterthought, I mean during week 3 she didn't even get her own dedicated update, she shared wirh other girls, where everyone else got dedicated updates with full dates, longer scenes, etc.

So to me, it feels like she has been neglected, others may not feel that way, thats just how I do.

"If you remove the sadistic stuff or sharing her" brother what do you think the point of this game is? And there's literally ONE sharing scene with her involving Ian and that's only if you pick him to cover for Rose's loan payments. If we go by just pure events the only person who has more in the memory bank is Veronica, and guess how many penetration scenes she has, let alone scenes where her and Edwin are the focus point?

Like you can feel whatever you want. I want more Veronica content with Edwin, but I'm not gonna go saying "Man they really are just making Veronica a side character disguised as a main heroine."

Rosalind was literally the plot device used to lure Edwin into working for the Club: a sad, desperate, and lonely mother trying to raise her child.

 

[hopefuldoc]

Windows defender just deleted my pale carnations.exe file and said it was a trojan. what the hell?

 

[MagicMan753]

"If you remove the sadistic stuff or sharing her" brother what do you think the point of this game is? And there's literally ONE sharing scene with her involving Ian and that's only if you pick him to cover for Rose's loan payments. If we go by just pure events the only person who has more in the memory bank is Veronica, and guess how many penetration scenes she has, let alone scenes where her and Edwin are the focus point?

Like you can feel whatever you want. I want more Veronica content with Edwin, but I'm not gonna go saying "Man they really are just making Veronica a side character disguised as a main heroine."

Rosalind was literally the plot device used to lure Edwin into working for the Club: a sad, desperate, and lonely mother trying to raise her child.

So just cause this game has a focus on the club, automatically we must accept everything. So I guess all girls should be chores. And by the way, there is technically two, during second exhibition you could choose Ian to participate instead, think of how much better the scene could of been and possibly a bit longer if they didn't do that scene and just extended mc scene with her.

During Interview you have to use her and be sadistic to get sexual content, full deal unlocks more sexual stuff like in parking lot and pictures. Last update full deal got non stop blowjob, so romance scene got shorter. So it affects more than just ONE scene for sharing, etc. as you say.

And you can't judge someone's feelings, on how they feel, this is just how I feel right now, with her feeling more side character, I want better for romance path. Just like you have feelings on Veronica, I do dor Rose, you can't judge how someone feels. So just stop responding and let's move on, cause we clearly won't see eye to eye. Hope you have a good day.