VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Discrepancy]

Hi!
The winner of the first round is the overall winner of the week.
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Kath spells it out: Winner of the first game has ALSO the additional benefit of sitting out the rest of the night. A point and bypassing the rest of the night´s "games".
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When making the screenshots, I made this one just for our resident butt lovers
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The thing is in your example Veronica, can catch up on the money side, if she wins the punishment game. But that hinges on your participation! If you follow Hana, the Carnation in the punishment game will ALWAYS loose, that you can see in the profiles later on.
In my example Felicia wins the first game and the evening overall. Rosi wins the second game and might be awarded a point. Veronica lost, since I always follow Hana in canon playthroughs.
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Winner of the first game, not of the first exhibition (was writing this and saw FRVN said the same)

Right, but it specifically says the first game of the first exhibition, not the exhibition itself. All three girls won one of the three games of the exhibition, so there is no sole winner. In fact, the way it is set up, there can only be three winners, or two winners and a loser, the latter being impossible because the game always has the last Carnation earning enough money.

Yeah, I'm reading the scene this way too. Maybe TD1900 can clarify it for us?

 

[Turret]

Right, but it specifically says the first game of the first exhibition, not the exhibition itself. All three girls won one of the three games of the exhibition, so there is no sole winner. In fact, the way it is set up, there can only be three winners, or two winners and a loser, the latter being impossible because the game always has the last Carnation earning enough money.

That is correct, but it is heavily implied with the priviledge to sit out the rest of the evening that the winner of the first game is considered the overall winner of the evening.
In my example only Felicia got updated profile posts, not the others. In addition the possible draw in week 2 shows that not winning puts all into the punishment games. In our example Felicia sat out the punishment games in week 1. I see this as a sign of the overall winner of the first week.
Addendum: The last Carnation in week one does NOT always earn enough money to gain a point, just enough to get into next round. If you follow Hana, the punished Carnation always loose here.

 

[FRVN]

That is correct, but it is heavily implied with the priviledge to sit out the rest of the evening that the winner of the first game is considered the overall winner of the evening.

Where is this implied?

In my example only Felicia got updated profile posts, not the others. In addition the possible draw in week 2 shows that not winning puts all into the punishment games. In our example Felicia sat out the punishment games in week 1. I see this as a sign of the overall winner of the first week.

Actually, only game three is designated the punishment game, but even then, the participant has a chance to win:

Spoiler: Third Game

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Addendum: The last Carnation in week one does NOT always earn enough money to gain a point, just enough to get into next round. If you follow Hana, the punished Carnation always loose here.

Can you provide evidence of this? Because I have never seen it being mentioned that the Carnation failed game three if you went to see Hana.

 

[marcodelamoret]

​

Hello,

I know of course, developers have to make a living.
It's a lot of work for the devs.
At the same time, it also gives the most talented ones a great showcase, like this game, both for their technical achievements and their storytelling.

Any chance to hace the end of pale carnation ?

Thks

 

[GIL3D]

Any chance to hace the end of pale carnation ?

Yes. Unless one of us is awakened from the slumber of this existence, it will happen. It's been planned and designed for a while now.

 

[Turret]

Can you provide evidence of this? Because I have never seen it being mentioned that the Carnation failed game three if you went to see Hana.

That is quite easy to proof: Here is your screenshot from after the punishment game.
https://f95zone.to/threads/pale-car...81/post-18611016#lg=attachment5428824&slide=0
It is telling us that Veronica earned enough money for the next round.

This is a sceenshot from one of my canon playthroughs after the punishment game, also Veronica to show the difference.

The difference here is because I went for Hana! This profile post shows and implies pretty much that Veronica lost! Being on the chopping block is definitly not making enough money to be on equal footing. For me English is a second language and even I can see the difference in meaning.

 

[FRVN]

That is quite easy to proof: Here is your screenshot from after the punishment game.
https://f95zone.to/threads/pale-car...81/post-18611016#lg=attachment5428824&slide=0
It is telling us that Veronica earned enough money for the next round.

This is a sceenshot from one of my canon playthroughs after the punishment game, also Veronica to show the difference.
View attachment 5429159
The difference here is because I went for Hana! This profile post shows and implies pretty much that Veronica lost! Being on the chopping block is definitly not making enough money to be on equal footing. For me English is a second language and even I can see the difference in meaning.

You are misreading that message. It’s saying she narrowly lost the second game (ass-to-ass with either Rose or Felicia), and will be facing the final game (the cum tribute challenge); it does not state whether she won or lost that game. The reason it's different is because Edwin did not witness her during the game, so it just leaves it at his last awareness of her situation.
Maybe I'll have to go back through and see if it is brought up somewhere else, but I do not think it is ever mentioned that a Carnation lost the third game if you went to see Hana.

 

[Simpgor]

Damn "crabs in a bucket" being the "theme" is somehow worse than the kind of crabs you'd expect in a AVN

 

[HDussen]

Maybe I misunderstood something, but my understanding is that there is no "winner" of the first exhibition, as it was not designed to single out one winner and two losers, but rather to put them through a gauntlet where they had to succeed in order not to lose, and all three succeeded. Therefore, there is no situation where a winner could be determined before the final exhibition in week 4.

Sure there is. I cannot recall if a points system has been specifically defined in the game, but let us look at a couple of the most obvious alternatives:

1. Winner gets 1 point, the other two nothing.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4.

2. Winner gets 2 points, second gets 1, loser 0.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4, as long as the other two score one each. (Making the scores 4-1-1.)

3. Winner gets 3 points, second gets 1, loser 0.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4, regardless of how 2nd and 3rd are sorted. (Scores would be either 6-2-0 or 6-1-1.)

The point (hah!) is that if the exhibitions are scored like a sports event, with each week rewarded equally, it is incredibly easy to end up in a situation where week 4 is rendered pointless from a competition perspective.

One way to get around that issue is to increase the point values for the last exhibition. The downside to that is that to raise them enough so that everyone still has a chance of winning on the last day, regardless of how badly they did on the first three, those first three become almost pointless (hah! again), other than as entertainment and exercises in humiliation.

Another way is the crab thing alluded to. Start the second-to-last exhibition with a summary of the lay of the land, and then give the ones not in the lead the chance to team up and bring the leader down to their level. No guarantees, but 2v1 should be pretty solid odds for success.

Because, as was mentioned by Turret above, there is no way in hell that Kath has not rigged this game in such a way that there is still all to play for in w4.

ETA: Even without any sort of point system, or some other way to actually measure the standings, it would be incredibly weird to have one person win 3 exhibitions in a row, narrowly fail to win the fourth, and end up beaten overall. Hence why using the third exhibition to even out the playing field before the final (by whatever means) is needed to keep things open.

 

[Discrepancy]

Sure there is. I cannot recall if a points system has been specifically defined in the game, but let us look at a couple of the most obvious alternatives:

1. Winner gets 1 point, the other two nothing.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4.

2. Winner gets 2 points, second gets 1, loser 0.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4, as long as the other two score one each. (Making the scores 4-1-1.)

3. Winner gets 3 points, second gets 1, loser 0.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4, regardless of how 2nd and 3rd are sorted. (Scores would be either 6-2-0 or 6-1-1.)

The point (hah!) is that if the exhibitions are scored like a sports event, with each week rewarded equally, it is incredibly easy to end up in a situation where week 4 is rendered pointless from a competition perspective.

One way to get around that issue is to increase the point values for the last exhibition. The downside to that is that to raise them enough so that everyone still has a chance of winning on the last day, regardless of how badly they did on the first three, those first three become almost pointless (hah! again), other than as entertainment and exercises in humiliation.

Another way is the crab thing alluded to. Start the second-to-last exhibition with a summary of the lay of the land, and then give the ones not in the lead the chance to team up and bring the leader down to their level. No guarantees, but 2v1 should be pretty solid odds for success.

Because, as was mentioned by Turret above, there is no way in hell that Kath has not rigged this game in such a way that there is still all to play for in w4.

Ah ok, haven't thought about that, still I don't think the point system is that complicated, it's probably just the winner get a win (1point) the others nothing.
With that even if week 1 as no winner as FRVN and me said, the winner of week 2 winning week 3 would make her the default winner, since she had two wins and the other girls could only get one for the last exib. Makes sense, still Kat would never allow that ofc.

 

[FRVN]

Sure there is. I cannot recall if a points system has been specifically defined in the game, but let us look at a couple of the most obvious alternatives:

1. Winner gets 1 point, the other two nothing.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4.

2. Winner gets 2 points, second gets 1, loser 0.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4, as long as the other two score one each. (Making the scores 4-1-1.)

3. Winner gets 3 points, second gets 1, loser 0.

Even in a case of no points awarded in week 1, winning both w2&3 ensures a win before w4, regardless of how 2nd and 3rd are sorted. (Scores would be either 6-2-0 or 6-1-1.)

The point (hah!) is that if the exhibitions are scored like a sports event, with each week rewarded equally, it is incredibly easy to end up in a situation where week 4 is rendered pointless from a competition perspective.

One way to get around that issue is to increase the point values for the last exhibition. The downside to that is that to raise them enough so that everyone still has a chance of winning on the last day, regardless of how badly they did on the first three, those first three become almost pointless (hah! again), other than as entertainment and exercises in humiliation.

Another way is the crab thing alluded to. Start the second-to-last exhibition with a summary of the lay of the land, and then give the ones not in the lead the chance to team up and bring the leader down to their level. No guarantees, but 2v1 should be pretty solid odds for success.

Because, as was mentioned by Turret above, there is no way in hell that Kath has not rigged this game in such a way that there is still all to play for in w4.

Fair enough, I latched onto the issue with the week 1 exhibition that I didn't think about that it could still lead to a week 3 winner if someone won weeks 2 and 3. It certainly will be weighted in some way, but as of right now, it is not clear how. The only thing I can comfortably say is that all three girls are even going into week 2; if not, then the game is straight-up lying to us.

 

[Khan merry]

Yes. Unless one of us is awakened from the slumber of this existence, it will happen. It's been planned and designed for a while now.

Will there be a Hana & Mina ending in this game?

 

[GIL3D]

Will there be a Hana & Mina ending in this game?

Spoiler

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[Turret]

You are misreading that message. It’s saying she narrowly lost the second game (ass-to-ass with either Rose or Felicia), and will be facing the final game (the cum tribute challenge); it does not state whether she won or lost that game. The reason it's different is because Edwin did not witness her during the game, so it just leaves it at his last awareness of her situation.
Maybe I'll have to go back through and see if it is brought up somewhere else, but I do not think it is ever mentioned that a Carnation lost the third game if you went to see Hana.

The thing here is that we get some profile updates over time also on things we do not witness firsthand. But the main point is no matter how the point awards are handled/manipulated in the first week, it is clear that the winner of the first game is considered the overall winner of the evening.
Why would they "take away" from the winner of the first game the chance to gain more points in the following rounds? These following rounds are literally called punishment rounds and Kath even tells them directly that the winner is lucky to not have to compete in the punishment rounds!
You cannot misread this. Also in the second week the competition is stacked towards a Rosi win, then a tie, another winner is possible, but we have to work to towards it. And if the tie happens, ALL of them are in the punishment round!
It is pretty obvious that that the winner of the first game in week 1 is considered the overall winner of the evening. and that Kath is manipulating the counting in any direction which keeps the games going on for a month without being too obvious. The week 2 stuff is weighted strongly towards a Rosi win, for example. She wins in 5 of the 9 possible outcomes of the photo shot and evening activities.

The only thing I can comfortably say is that all three girls are even going into week 2; if not, then the game is straight-up lying to us.

The game does not lie to you, it is simply you reading something into it that is not there! The two Carnation evenings so far showed the following: The winner is not in the punishment rounds as a victim, at the max she is the punisher of the others in week two. In a tie ALL are punished.
So the winner of week one gets at least 2 points, because she is not in the punishment rounds, unable to gain points via it. So there is one Carnation in the lead after the first week. The other two might have one point each, but the 3 are not even going into week 2.

 

[Khan merry]

Spoiler

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Muhehehe

 

[FRVN]

The thing here is that we get some profile updates over time also on things we do not witness firsthand. But the main point is no matter how the point awards are handled/manipulated in the first week, it is clear that the winner of the first game is considered the overall winner of the evening.
Why would they "take away" from the winner of the first game the chance to gain more points in the following rounds? These following rounds are literally called punishment rounds and Kath even tells them directly that the winner is lucky to not have to compete in the punishment rounds!
You cannot misread this. Also in the second week the competition is stacked towards a Rosi win, then a tie, another winner is possible, but we have to work to towards it. And if the tie happens, ALL of them are in the punishment round!
It is pretty obvious that that the winner of the first game in week 1 is considered the overall winner of the evening. and that Kath is manipulating the counting in any direction which keeps the games going on for a month without being too obvious. The week 2 stuff is weighted strongly towards a Rosi win, for example. She wins in 5 of the 9 possible outcomes of the photo shot and evening activities.

The game does not lie to you, it is simply you reading something into it that is not there! The two Carnation evenings so far showed the following: The winner is not in the punishment rounds as a victim, at the max she is the punisher of the others in week two. In a tie ALL are punished.
So the winner of week one gets at least 2 points, because she is not in the punishment rounds, unable to gain points via it. So there is one Carnation in the lead after the first week. The other two might have one point each, but the 3 are not even going into week 2.

This is where I'll have to bow out, because it seems there is no convincing you, and this has gone on too long. The game clearly states that the winner of the third game in week 1 goes into week 2 on equal footing as the other 2 Carnations. How can it be equal footing if only one person is the winner?

Spoiler: Inserting this again

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The game does not lie to you, it is simply you reading something into it that is not there!

With all due respect, you are the one reading things that are not there into the game. I'm literally reading what the game explicitly states in text.

 

[Turret]

With all due respect, you are the one reading things that are not there into the game. I'm literally reading what the game explicitly states in text.

Something that is path dependent, since we also get profile updates from things we do not witness firsthand. And equal footing does not equate to the "week´s winner", which is Felicia in our case. It is pretty obvious by how Kath annouces the winner of game 1 on week one and the the priviledge of sitting out the rest of the evening. In the eyes of all in the room Felicia is the winner of the evening.


And more, look at the two events. Week one is weighted towards Felicia, then Veronica, with 5/4 options of winning. Week 2 is weighted strongly towards a win by Rosi, then a tie.

 

[lustforsex]

The first three exhibitions are simply a warm-up for the fourth, where everything will be decided. The "winning" Carnations simply receive the privilege of being less humiliated. Also, don't forget what Kristoff and Sophia might reveal in the latest update about Allison and how she won last summer's exhibition.

Just don't tell the Carnations about this, or Kat will burn the club to the ground... wait, isn't that what many players want? The moment to tell about Felicia's surprise is unfortunately missed, but the club still has a chance to self-liquidate, and there's not much that needs to be done! It looks like there's an easy way for those players, where Kat will blow up the club herself, so you know what to do

Spoiler

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[ename144]

The first three exhibitions are simply a warm-up for the fourth, where everything will be decided. The "winning" Carnations simply receive the privilege of being less humiliated. Also, don't forget what Kristoff and Sophia might reveal in the latest update about Allison and how she won last summer's exhibition.

Just don't tell the Carnations about this, or Kat will burn the club to the ground... wait, isn't that what many players want? The moment to tell about Felicia's surprise is unfortunately missed, but the club still has a chance to self-liquidate, and there's not much that needs to be done! It looks like there's an easy way for those players, where Kat will blow up the club herself, so you know what to do

Spoiler

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Man, I was so tempted to take her up on her offer. But we all know Kathleen lies, so she'd have just something unhelpful like kill us instead.

 

[Simpgor]

Just don't tell the Carnations about this, or Kat will burn the club to the ground... wait, isn't that what many players want? The moment to tell about Felicia's surprise is unfortunately missed, but the club still has a chance to self-liquidate, and there's not much that needs to be done! It looks like there's an easy way for those players, where Kat will blow up the club herself, so you know what to do

Spoiler

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Final fight is exposed Kathleen vs firestarter Edwin to see who burns more of club