RPGM Peasant's Quest [v3.62] [Tinkerer]

[storm1051787]

That's because Japanese people were introduced to Orcs by D&D 1e which had them as Pigmen before then LoTRs was not a book u could really find in Japan (I'm sure theres translations now tho but I cant be sure). Same thing happened with Kobolds (OG: German Goblins. D&D 1e: yapping dogfolk, before later transforming into tapping dragonfolk. The Dogfolk were Japanse first look at Kobolds & so it stuck).

Orcs have evolved in the social consensus of fantasy due to people having freedom to use & explore them. But they are definetly monster girls. They are often seen as the same family as Goblins, Ogres & Trolls in modern fantasy settings.

They are definitely not monster girls any more than elves and mermaids are monster girls for the reasons I've already mentioned. "Evolving in social consensus" doesn't matter because things are based around the most common usage, just like tolkien orcs don't matter because they are so different from the common typical usage. This is a game that realizes a lot already on fantasy tropes and the races that are here are pretty much based on the common versions of the trope.

It doesn't mean Tolkien orcs aren't matter at all but in the context of modern fantasy it kind of does because Tolkiens orcs don't really fit in modern fantasy, or even 80s fantasy really.

 

[DomWolf]

It's irrelevent because the modern version of the trope didn't come from Tokien. Like everyone here said already Orcs in Tolkien is just another name for Goblin. The traditional version of fantasy orcs comes from DnD not Tolkien, just like the sterotype Dark elf like Everi also comes from DnD and Tolkien Dark elves are something completley different. And they're both completely different from the actual folklore version of dark elves, which was just another name for Dwarves.


DnD didn't just straight up copy everything Tolkien did, they both heavily modified it and were also drew in inspiration from 3 hearts 3 lions.

Orcs were invented by Tolkien as a type of souped-up goblin so all trace back to that. Which makes them monsters. Most settings, PQ including, call Goblins AND Orcs "Greenskins" because they are closely related cousins.

Dark Elves come from Norse folklore. The Ljos'alfar (Light Elves) & Dökk/Svart'alfar (Dark Elves). I'm not disagreeing that D&D helped solidify the modern conception for most fantastical creatures but they took inspiration form 100s of different media forms to help create their game.

Anyway I'm not gonna debate this further because I'm reading back & we look kinda ridiculous arguing over Orcs being monster or not...

 

[Damagus01]

Orcs were invented by Tolkien as a type of souped-up goblin so all trace back to that. Which makes them monsters.

Dark Elves come from Norse folklore. The Ljos'alfar (Light Elves) & Dökk/Svart'alfar (Dark Elves). I'm not disagreeing that D&D helped solidify the modern conception for most fantastical creatures but they took inspiration form 100s of different media forms to help create their game.

Give it up, dude's picked the hillock he's willing to die on. Not worth the effort.

 

[storm1051787]

Orcs were invented by Tolkien as a type of souped-up goblin so all trace back to that. Which makes them monsters.

Dark Elves come from Norse folklore. The Ljos'alfar (Light Elves) & Dökk/Svart'alfar (Dark Elves). I'm not disagreeing that D&D helped solidify the modern conception for most fantastical creatures but they took inspiration form 100s of different media forms to help create their game.

But my point is were not basing things off there original origin, were are basing them off the typical fantasy tropes. If you said that Everi was a dwarf just because dark elves are dwarves in mythology you wouldn't really be right. Since basically the 80s Orcs haven't been monsters but just another humanoid race same as elves and dwarves, they just happen to be a race that leans more towards the evil alignment. In modern fantasy orc are literally just muscular green humans

 

[storm1051787]

Give it up, dude's picked the hillock he's willing to die on. Not worth the effort.

Yeah cause it's a dumb argument. Go around and ask most fantasy fans if they consider orcs to be monster and you're going to get a typical no. If you want to consider orcs monster girls you have to consider every non human race in fantasy to be monster girl. "Monster girl" has always been about looks and how faraway they are from humans.

 

[gforsMan1]

When the new crafting system (including kitchen stuff) was introduced, a number of things were changed. One of those is not being able to butcher rabbits/boars/bears for steaks until after you have Jenny do it for you. (Technically the steaks thing reverted to an earlier version where that was always required, but most players came along after it was changed to not needing to see Jenny.)

There are four situations that will unlock asking Jenny for that: Alice's key, Erevi's date, distracting Balder, and getting Frida to forgive you after the giants' hunting grounds arc. Seems to me you need to visit Jenny now.

Thanks for the Info. That helped a lot.

 

[FunFuntomes]

Go around and ask most fantasy fans if they consider orcs to be monster and you're going to get a typical no.

because most modern settings let you play as an orc

and how faraway they are from humans.

the orcs in PQ are monsters that attack, pillage and rape, there is nothing human about them

 

[PhineasFlynn]

the orcs in PQ are monsters that attack, pillage and rape, there is nothing human about them

That are historically most common human abilites

 

[storm1051787]

because most modern settings let you play as an orc

the orcs in PQ are monsters that attack, pillage and rape, there is nothing human about them

Those are very human traits. But anyway it's about appearance not how they act. You have a human with wings and they're not a monster girl, you give them bird feet and they're a monster girl. Angels aren't monster girls, but Harpies are. They need to be different enough from the star trek aliens that are just humans with different foreheads. A character with horns isn't a monster girl just because they have horns, you give them horns plus a tail and scale/fur and they are.


Orcs are just too close in appearance to humans in most settings to justify calling a female orc a monster girl. As it's usally just a green human with not a ton of differences. You could probably make them more monstrous, but that's not how the majority of them look. Unless you just consider monster girls to be any non human it doesn't really make much sense to consider them that for the same reason why I don't consider the giantesses to be monster girls.

 

[FunFuntomes]

Those are very human traits. But anyway it's about appearance not how they act. You have a human with wings and they're not a monster girl, you give them bird feet and they're a monster girl. Angels aren't monster girls, but Harpies are. They need to be different enough from the star trek aliens that are just humans with different foreheads. A character with horns isn't a monster girl just because they have horns, you give them horns plus a tail and scale/fur and they are.


Orcs are just too close in appearance to humans in most settings to justify calling a female orc a monster girl. As it's usally just a green human with not a ton of differences. You could probably make them more monstrous, but that's not how the majority of them look. Unless you just consider monster girls to be any non human it doesn't really make much sense to consider them that for the same reason why I don't consider the giantesses to be monster girls.

now you're just moving the goal-post to a arbitrary number of traits

 

[storm1051787]

now you're just moving the goal-post to a arbitrary number of traits

It's literally the exact same thing I said earlier I just gave an example. It's not about a set number of traits it's about how closely they look like a normal human vs how closely they look like a non human. Another one, human with animal ears isn't really a monster girl human with animal ears as well as having claws is because they no longer look that close to a regular human. It's like that whole furry scale meme, it's pretty much the same principle. At a certain point they are just humans with a quirk until they get something that makes them standout more. It's always been a factor of looks and not any sort of origin or character traits.

 

[DomWolf]

Those are very human traits. But anyway it's about appearance not how they act. You have a human with wings and they're not a monster girl, you give them bird feet and they're a monster girl. Angels aren't monster girls, but Harpies are. They need to be different enough from the star trek aliens that are just humans with different foreheads. A character with horns isn't a monster girl just because they have horns, you give them horns plus a tail and scale/fur and they are.


Orcs are just too close in appearance to humans in most settings to justify calling a female orc a monster girl. As it's usally just a green human with not a ton of differences. You could probably make them more monstrous, but that's not how the majority of them look. Unless you just consider monster girls to be any non human it doesn't really make much sense to consider them that for the same reason why I don't consider the giantesses to be monster girls.

The definition of is an unnatural creature that should not exist goes against the natural order. A perversion of nature if you will. So technically every fantasy creature that is not a natural animal is in fact a monster (this includes elves, dwarves, giants, goblin, orcs, faeries & angels) so this argument is redundant.

 

[storm1051787]

The definition of is an unnatural creature that should not exist goes against the natural order. A perversion of nature if you will. So technically every fantasy creature that is not a natural animal is in fact a monster (this includes elves, dwarves, giants, goblin, orcs, faeries & angels) so this argument is redundant.

I'm not really sure why you got into the "natural order" thing. That doesn't have anything to do with what I said. I said it's about how closely they resemble humans and they need to be something more than star trek level aliens to be monster girls. It's not about what you define as being a "monster" just like it's not about what their origin is. Anything else is overcomplicating it. The giantesses aren't monster girls because they're just really big humans, the elves aren't monster girls because they're just humans with pointed ears, and most orcs are just stocky or muscles green humans with tusks. I guess it's subjective where people draw, but it's mostly a scale on how closely they resemble a normal human. Angels vs Harpies

 

[FunFuntomes]

look like a normal human vs how closely they look like a non human. Another one, human with animal ears isn't really a monster girl human with animal ears as well as having claws is because they no longer look that close to a regular human. It's like that whole furry scale meme, it's pretty much the same principle. At a certain point they are just humans with a quirk until they get something that makes them standout more. It's always been a factor of looks and not any sort of origin or character traits.

by your logiv Erevi'sdaughter is a human but Namaah isn't ?

so basically monster musume should be called human musume

 

[storm1051787]

by your logiv Erevi'sdaughter is a human but Namaah isn't ?

so basically monster musume should be called human musume

I didn't say they are human just that they look like them, but yeah Erevi's daughter isn't a mnster girl and Namaah is. You pretty much described exactly what I was saying.


As for monster Musume it's actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Most of the girls don't have human legs and have scales of feathers or something. They're all way further away from looking like a human than an Orc

 

[FunFuntomes]

Most of the girls don't have human legs and have scales of feathers or something.

a lamia is just a humna with a snake tail

 

[storm1051787]

a lamia is just a humna with a snake tail

Lamia have scales and not having human legs is a very drastic change from humans while having an odd skin color really isn't. You don't agree with me, but you're pretty much identifying what I actually do and don't consider a monster girl.


Human with antlers, no. Human with deer legs, yes.

 

[FunFuntomes]

Human with antlers, no. Human with deer legs, yes.

arbitrary
adjective
ar·bi·trary ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē -ˌtre-rē
Synonyms of arbitrary
1
a
: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will
an arbitrary choice
When a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.
—Nehemiah Jordan
b
: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something
an arbitrary standard

 

[storm1051787]

arbitrary
adjective
ar·bi·trary ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē -ˌtre-rē
Synonyms of arbitrary
1
a
: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will
an arbitrary choice
When a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.
—Nehemiah Jordan
b
: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something
an arbitrary standard

I mean did I ever say what we are arguing about wasn't arbituary? Because it is, I'm pretty sure I aknodged that it was subjective where people draw the line. I'm just saying what's generally considered to be the standard on what is and what isn't a monster girl and it's always been about looks. Just like how people generally don't consider catgirls to be furries until you give them fur everywhere. Lamias are too drastic in apperance from a normal human to be considered anything, but a monster girl. Same with centaurs and Satyrs. But the traditional fantasy races? No not really, they look to much like regular people to be considered.


I was mostly opposed to bring Tolkienism and mythology as an argument for being a monster girl or not, and not just judging based on looks. If you want to consider orcs monster girls, then imo you need to consider all non humans to be monster girls..

 

[FunFuntomes]

I mean did I ever say what we are arguing about wasn't arbituary? Because it is, I'm pretty sure I aknodged that it was subjective where people draw the line. I'm just saying what's generally considered to be the standard on what is and what isn't a monster girl and it's always been about looks. Just like how people generally don't consider catgirls to be furries until you give them fur everywhere. Lamias are too drastic in apperance from a normal human to be considered anything, but a monster girl. Same with centaurs and Satyrs. But the traditional fantasy races? No not really, they look to much like regular people to be considered.


I was mostly opposed to bring Tolkienism and mythology as an argument for being a monster girl or not, and not just judging based on looks. If you want to consider orcs monster girls, then imo you need to consider all non humans to be monster girls..

fine... let's use the orc you posted as an example... do you see any inhuman characteristics?