Ren'Py Completed Personal Trainer [v1.1.2] [Domiek]

[myuhinny]

cordux

Not sure why your quoting someone about bugs that isn't even the DEV of the game.

 

[botc76]

Any chance someone can enter a suggestion that a new label be created that indicates works like this that are "Finished" by their creaters but are a long way from being complete by any reasonable definition.

While I can absolutely agree with wanting to have a tag/label that warns of this, the problem would of course be who decides what is a complete ending and what not.
FE. Slonique basically calls a game finished whenever he doesn't like working on it any longer, everybody knows that, but then there are games where there is an actual ending, but many think it is rushed or just plain not good/satisfying.
Then there are games which are obviously ended, but are so because the dev cuts the story up in several chapters... yet not all of these follow-up games actually happen or start soon.
When does a game turn from being part 1 to being unfinished but called complete, because the dev won't ever come back to it.

I mean, reasonable definition is a term that can have a WIIIIIIIIIIIIDE range, and often it will come down to opinion.

Especially considering that there are always those who have this knee-jerk reaction to automatically defend any and all devs, who will basically swear on their life that the ending was great and/or that any dev has every right to end the game however he wants, even if that means he doesn't give it a proper ending at all.

I mean, you see it in this thread, I'd say about 80% of the people posting since the endings were released express disappointment, but the rest declare everything is peachy. That's just how it is.

 

[Stil996]

While I can absolutely agree with wanting to have a tag/label that warns of this, the problem would of course be who decides what is a complete ending and what not.

I absolutely understand it's a difficult suggestion to implement, that's the reason I wrote the belly aching part lol.
Some things clearly indicate Incomplete status, Mayans story arc for example, you give her a swimming costume with a promise to swimming lessons, then nothing, she is perpetually sitting by the pool forever more.


As for the "Finished but incompete" label, Off the top of my head I'd suggest a voting system, maybe something as simple as

​

What tag has this game earned "Completed" / "Abandoned"? ​

which would be displayed as a percentage or integer next to the Label showing how many peope agree.
More than 50% and it gets something like "Compete" "Percentage Here"
Less than 50% and it gets something like "Abandoned" "Percentage Here"

Edit: Addendum I'd also like to see Review breakdown scores (maybe in a popup) such as

• 80% felt the main story was complete.
• 25% felt all the Side stories were complete.
• 75% felt the majority of the Story arcs were complete.
• 66% were happy overall with how "finished" this game is.

But that might just be me getting greedy

 

[FookU2]

I can tell you that you have some small bugs in the game:

Spoiler: Here is one

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I don't see any bugs. I see bad artistry. lol
Pencils don't stand up/lean like that. But, the books and folders can easily have been moved by Dani at some point, so no reason they should always be sitting at the same spot.

 

[Cynicaladm]

 

[NotARealPerson1582]

While I can absolutely agree with wanting to have a tag/label that warns of this, the problem would of course be who decides what is a complete ending and what not.
FE. Slonique basically calls a game finished whenever he doesn't like working on it any longer, everybody knows that, but then there are games where there is an actual ending, but many think it is rushed or just plain not good/satisfying.
Then there are games which are obviously ended, but are so because the dev cuts the story up in several chapters... yet not all of these follow-up games actually happen or start soon.
When does a game turn from being part 1 to being unfinished but called complete, because the dev won't ever come back to it.

I mean, reasonable definition is a term that can have a WIIIIIIIIIIIIDE range, and often it will come down to opinion.

Especially considering that there are always those who have this knee-jerk reaction to automatically defend any and all devs, who will basically swear on their life that the ending was great and/or that any dev has every right to end the game however he wants, even if that means he doesn't give it a proper ending at all.

I mean, you see it in this thread, I'd say about 80% of the people posting since the endings were released express disappointment, but the rest declare everything is peachy. That's just how it is.

Whether or not a work is complete comes down to the choice of the artist. I've worked on projects in the past where for one reason or another (usually time or lack of interest) the project was dropped at a mostly complete level and I went on to other work. That doesn't mean the project was good, just that it was time to move forward. It met the definition of complete, but didn't feel complete.

That's sort of what happened here. Domiek took this story to the point that it couldn't go any further and wrapped it up. Was it satisfying to everyone? No. But he put his ending on the story.

This reminds me a little bit of watching a TV show with an ending that left the audience asking for more, like Seinfeld or Sopranos. The audience had an expectation of what they felt should happen at the end (Jerry makes it to the big time, Tony gets whacked) but those didn't happen, and those people that expected that ending felt betrayed.

Personal Trainer isn't Seinfeld, but at least we're not bitching because the MC is spending a year in prison for being a douchebag.

 

[botc76]

I absolutely understand it's a difficult suggestion to implement, that's the reason I wrote the belly aching part lol.
Some things clearly indicate Incomplete status, Mayans story arc for example, you give her a swimming costume with a promise to swimming lessons, then nothing, she is perpetually sitting by the pool forever more.


As for the "Finished but incompete" label, Off the top of my head I'd suggest a voting system, maybe something as simple as

​

What tag has this game earned "Completed" / "Abandoned"? ​

which would be displayed as a percentage or integer next to the Label showing how many peope agree.
More than 50% and it gets something like "Compete" "Percentage Here"
Less than 50% and it gets something like "Abandoned" "Percentage Here"

Edit: Addendum I'd also like to see Review breakdown scores (maybe in a popup) such as

• 80% felt the main story was complete.
• 25% felt all the Side stories were complete.
• 75% felt the majority of the Story arcs were complete.
• 66% were happy overall with how "finished" this game is.

But that might just be me getting greedy

In regards with reviews, it would be enough for me if people would stop giving games a five star rating, because they "feel" that the game has the potential to one day be worthy of that score. Or not to give 5 stars, if they have a shit-long list of criticism for the game.
Because IF you have that much criticism it would be really weird to rate it as a perfect or near perfect game. Makes no frigging sense.

 

[Content_Consumer]

I'd rate it as 'abandoned' more than completed.

But if I was making up a new tag to describe this kind of "completed" it'd be called "FTSIO" ... 'Fuck this shit, I'm out', because that basically what seems to be the case most of the time, slap some sort of half-arsed "ending" on it and bounce.

Its clearly what happened her as people have noted much of the story is left unattended to and even in the "ending" where

Spoiler

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karen? Cara?, whatever he name was, once the "event" is done then its like nothing happened.

 

[myuhinny]

I doubt the MC would of been that desperate to go back to Karen. Maven was the only one that I was sad to see had her content cut off.

 

[Stil996]

Whether or not a work is complete comes down to the choice of the artist.

In the instance of a work Art such as Painting or Sculpture, the artist definitely does have massive scope of interpretation as to what is and isn't complete, afterall those aren't linear by nature. But Story/Narrative are linear, there are beginnings, middles and ends, Mayan jumps out as the most obvious example, there was a clear attempt to develop her story arc in the beginning which was just dropped with no conclusion/explanation.

I've worked on projects in the past where for one reason or another (usually time or lack of interest) the project was dropped at a mostly complete level and I went on to other work. That doesn't mean the project was good,

What are you trying to say here? of course the project wasn't good, you abandoned it!, very rarely does leaving a project before it is complete result in a satisfactory product, that is entirely my point.

just that it was time to move forward. It met the definition of complete, but didn't feel complete.

You seem to have some difficultly with basic English, and I get this might be an Industry problem rather than something personal to you,
1% complete = Incomplete
30% complete = Incomplete
99% complete = Incomplete
just like
1% truth = Lie
30% truth = Lie
99% truth = Lie

In Artistic endeavors there is a certain amount of latitude as long as it "feels" complete to the consumers, but just declaring it is finished doesn't cut it. My suggestion that people can vote on how Compete something is not only lets us make an informed choice on what to download, but can help the better Devs build their reputations as people who can deliver on their promises and by extension build their patron membership.

That's sort of what happened here. Domiek took this story to the point that it couldn't go any further and wrapped it up.

This is an outright lie, there are several instances in this game were the story builds up implied promises of future content which aren't met.

Was it satisfying to everyone? No. But he put his ending on the story.

This reminds me a little bit of watching a TV show with an ending that left the audience asking for more, like Seinfeld or Sopranos. The audience had an expectation of what they felt should happen at the end (Jerry makes it to the big time, Tony gets whacked) but those didn't happen, and those people that expected that ending felt betrayed.

Personal Trainer isn't Seinfeld, but at least we're not bitching because the MC is spending a year in prison for being a douchebag.

1. I agree TV shows rarely have good endings, not sure why this is relevant here?

2. You go to jail for being a douchebag???? really ?? which country does that? it can't be America, there if you are a big enough Douchebag you get to be President

and BTW if the MC had been arrested for whatever reason, that at least would have fairly marked the game complete since it has achieved some kind of conclusion and would have been a reasonable explanation why the other story arcs were cut so abruptly short.

 

[myuhinny]

Stil996

The one route the MC's dead.

 

[Stil996]

In regards with reviews, it would be enough for me if people would stop giving games a five star rating, because they "feel" that the game has the potential to one day be worthy of that score. Or not to give 5 stars, if they have a shit-long list of criticism for the game.
Because IF you have that much criticism it would be really weird to rate it as a perfect or near perfect game. Makes no frigging sense.

100% agree, Review whats there, and not whats in your imagination.
Another suggestion have a menu based reveiw system?

• Grade the story out of 5
• Grade the Art out of 5
• Grade the Coding out of 5 (Bugs or lack them)
• General Satisfaction Rating out of 5

 

[Stil996]

....If I were a dev, and my game were labeled "finished but not completed," I'd feel pretty insulted.

I'm fine with that!
Patron is rife with Devs earning money on the back of projects that they have little or no intention of completing, if you are one of them then I hope you have the integrity to feel shame and disappiontment in yourself.

Please Note :
I am not claiming this Dev is one of those, I think he entered this project with a sincere plan to make a good Adult Game/VN, then at some point lost the will to continue, I'm disappointed, nothing more.

 

[NotARealPerson1582]

In the instance of a work Art such as Painting or Sculpture, the artist definitely does have massive scope of interpretation as to what is and isn't complete, afterall those aren't linear by nature. But Story/Narrative are linear, there are beginnings, middles and ends, Mayan jumps out as the most obvious example, there was a clear attempt to develop her story arc in the beginning which was just dropped with no conclusion/explanation.


What are you trying to say here? of course the project wasn't good, you abandoned it!, very rarely does leaving a project before it is complete result in a satisfactory product, that is entirely my point.



You seem to have some difficultly with basic English, and I get this might be an Industry problem rather than something personal to you,
1% complete = Incomplete
30% complete = Incomplete
99% complete = Incomplete
just like
1% truth = Lie
30% truth = Lie
99% truth = Lie

In Artistic endeavors there is a certain amount of latitude as long as it "feels" complete to the consumers, but just declaring it is finished doesn't cut it. My suggestion that people can vote on how Compete something is not only lets us make an informed choice on what to download, but can help the better Devs build their reputations as people who can deliver on their promises and by extension build their patron membership.


This is an outright lie, there are several instances in this game were the story builds up implied promises of future content which aren't met.


1. I agree TV shows rarely have good endings, not sure why this is relevant here?

2. You go to jail for being a douchebag???? really ?? which country does that? it can't be America, there if you are a big enough Douchebag you get to be President

and BTW if the MC had been arrested for whatever reason, that at least would have fairly marked the game complete since it has achieved some kind of conclusion and would have been a reasonable explanation why the other story arcs were cut so abruptly short.

From your reaction, I can tell a few things.

First, you never saw the last episode of Seinfeld. The quick breakdown is that Jerry and the crew are flying from New York to LA for a meeting but the plane has to make an emergency landing. While waiting, they go into town and witness a crime. They get arrested because they didn't stop the crime, and the remainder of the episode is a trial in which all of their shady shit gets brought back up and used as evidence against them for how horrible they are. They get sentenced to one year in prison for essentially being douchebags.

Second, anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, and nothing they say will change your mind. I will not respond to any more replies from you going forward if you continue to act like this.

Finally, you like to automatically assume you know more than anyone else, even and especially the artist behind the story. This isn't my work, but I've been there before. I've got a good feeling what he's going through. He wanted to do something different, something new, and felt that this story had reached a logical conclusion. Not every storyline needs to be wrapped up in a cute little bow, not every little plot hole needs solved, and if he wants to call the story at this point completed, that's his prerogative. If someone else wants to continue it as a fan remake, they can go ahead and try. But some random ass fan who probably never supported him financially doesn't get to say when it's completed or not.

Da Vinci never completed The Last Supper. By your logic, it must not be any good.

 

[Stil996]

From your reaction, I can tell a few things.

Sure you can, but there accuracy is yet to be verified

First, you never saw the last episode of Seinfeld. The quick breakdown is that Jerry and the crew are flying from New York to LA for a meeting but the plane has to make an emergency landing. While waiting, they go into town and witness a crime. They get arrested because they didn't stop the crime, and the remainder of the episode is a trial in which all of their shady shit gets brought back up and used as evidence against them for how horrible they are. They get sentenced to one year in prison for essentially being douchebags.

OK, your douchebag comment makes more sense now. still no idea why you think it is relevant to the subject at hand.

Second, anyone who disagrees with you is wrong,

The first smart thing you have said, still wrong though, I'm as flawed as the next individual, biased by my experiences and hampered by my emotions. I have been wrong many times in my life, I do tend reduce the odds of this happening by applying thought and reason to much of what I do, perhaps you should try it?

and nothing they say will change your mind.

You really suck at reading minds, you have made little attempt to persuade me of your point beyond making a few definitive statements, and now you are whining that nobody can change my mind!!!

I will not respond to any more replies from you going forward if you continue to act like this.

OK? so in other words you're going to pout? why even say this?

Finally, you like to automatically assume you know more than anyone else,

Mindreading again!!

even and especially the artist behind the story.

To be honest I was almost going to argue this,

1. Because your post is so antagonistic,
2. Because most of these Devs aren't artists

This one though I think is, the characters of Amy and Mayan in particular, both had depth in their expressions and posture that make me believe he really is an artist, one who genuinely started this project with high ideals, and fully intended to produce something of real merit, it is the main reason I was so disappointed to see him drop the ball on the last leg. If he had less talent, my expectations would have been lower, and as such would have disappointed me less.

This isn't my work, but I've been there before. I've got a good feeling what he's going through.

I doubt this, you have already demonstrated your inability to read minds.

He wanted to do something different, something new, and felt that this story had reached a logical conclusion. Not every storyline needs to be wrapped up in a cute little bow, not every little plot hole needs solved

I agree with the bulk of what you said in this part, except for the logical conclusion.
You should take a creative writing class if you have time, might do you good.

Da Vinci never completed The Last Supper. By your logic, it must not be any good.

Seriously, of all the things you've written in this post, this diminishes you the most in my eyes

1. The last supper is not a linear work, so not the same thing.
2. What makes you think it is unfinished, (don't mention the face of christ, that was a deliberate feature)
3. What is this crap about "must not be any good", nothing in my posts have declared any quality judgements, other than praise for the quality of the art.

 

[MxxDeth]

Does anyone know the MAC release date

 

[FookU2]

I'm fine with that!
Patron is rife with Devs earning money on the back of projects that they have little or no intention of completing, if you are one of them then I hope you have the integrity to feel shame and disappiontment in yourself.

Please Note :
I am not claiming this Dev is one of those, I think he entered this project with a sincere plan to make a good Adult Game/VN, then at some point lost the will to continue, I'm disappointed, nothing more.

I'm not a dev. I'm a concerned ex-patron. I stopped supporting years ago, just due to being burned by multiple devs...all the type that you mentioned. And sure, if the dev is one who purposely lets a project sit while he/she collects money, then who cares how insulted they are by the tag? But, I was referring to those who legitimately ended a story the way they felt it should end, and the game gets a "finished but not completed" tag, simply because someone was butthurt about an ending that didn't go their way. In other words, the story goes however the writer decides, and not how the reader decides. It may be a good or bad story, but still a story written purposely in a specific way, as the writer sees fit. And I think devs who take advantage end up known eventually, so there's really no need for a tag to insult horrible devs. lol

 

[Papow]

Thank a lot this game is really good

 

[Stil996]

... and the game gets a "finished but not completed" tag, simply because someone was butthurt about an ending that didn't go their way. ..

I agree there would definately be people who would do this, but don't you have any faith that the truth would bare out over a decent sized sample? particulary if was implimented as I posted in

What tag has this game earned "Completed" / "Abandoned"?

which would be displayed as a percentage or integer next to the Label showing how many peope agree.
More than 50% and it gets something like "Compete" "Percentage Here"
Less than 50% and it gets something like "Abandoned" "Percentage Here"

Edit: Addendum I'd also like to see Review breakdown scores (maybe in a popup) such as

• 80% felt the main story was complete.
• 25% felt all the Side stories were complete.
• 75% felt the majority of the Story arcs were complete.
• 66% were happy overall with how "finished" this game is.

Don't you think that would be valuable feedback to the Dev aswell as other downloaders?

Considering you, yourself posted something that clearly demonstrated that this was incomplete

I still can't get the new scenes to show up. Just started the new download, and it says "there are no more events for this version" under every girl. I redownloaded the new version, and got the same result.

 

[FookU2]

I agree there would definately be people who would do this, but don't you have any faith that the truth would bare out over a decent sized sample? particulary if was implimented as I posted in

Don't you think that would be valuable feedback to the Dev aswell as other downloaders?

Considering you, yourself posted something that clearly demonstrated that this was incomplete

My issue was a bit different than everyone else's issue, since they were all able to actually play the "final" update and I wasn't.
I was actually hoping someone could help me figure out why my download didn't work and everyone else's downloads worked.