Ren'Py Abandoned Power Vacuum [Ch. 12 Official] [What? Why? Games]

[Gwimmly]

True, that! I was literally just referring to affection specifically. Sterling is ironically more "red pill-ish" about sex with them demeaning and dominating them. It was just in context of the idea that somehow Sterling has this deep romantic and special attachment to them when it never really shows up at all in how he treats them. He just says what any guy trying to seduce a girl would say but his actions are always him first and let the girls deal with the fallout. Hunter is objectively awful, but I don't see how people think Sterling is good.



Yeah! I felt like I was playing a different game too, lol. I played through an entire second time to see because I was only at about ch. 9 when I saw the conversation here that Brenna was treating Sterling poorly and I was shocked because Brenna seemed to treat him and everyone better than anyone else in the story. Everyone else it's hard to see around the drugs or their own personal desires, but Brenna frequently does things that just benefit Sterling and go against what she would want.

But, yeah, going through it again, Sterling definitely knows about the drugs and hormones. Warning, this will probably take long enough to get through for Ch 13 and GTA 6 to come out:

Spoiler: All The Things Sterling Does

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This is all on top of the actual explicit things Sterling "this-is-my-chance" Archer (he is based on that character, right?) did to her. All made worse by the knowing about Hunter's tampering and lying about it, like fingering her butt, trying to force her to give him a blow job, trying to get her to slip into sex and cumming inside her. He just really never does anything 'heroic' to her or that shows any care beyond she's his sister. He certainly doesn't hate her, but all of his activity towards her are just trying to have sex. He might be confused that that's love, but his actions make it clear he doesn't really care about her if it costs him anything.

She's the best example because the others, Ophelia and Catherine especially, are pretty much equally self-centered through most of the story and don't really have anything bad actually happen to them. Brenna gets victimized the most, looks out for everyone else the most, and does the most things that actually are completely against her own best interest or just out of love for Sterling. Catherine being second in this in how she treats Brenna well overall, she's just obviously too immature and inexperienced to be around sex while drugged and probably really does not think that what she did to Brenna was wrong. So when people said Brenna was the bad guy and Sterling was the victim I was shocked like "are we really reading the same story?" That's why her relationship with him specifically was the focus. I would love to be wrong because I hate when I don't like the MC, but unless I'm missing some context on all this stuff or missed a chapter... he's kinda awful.

A huge part of the girl's boundaries is the incestual aspect right? Sterling is the only man in their lives that is there for them emotionally. He wants to be the one there for them physically as well, but the girl's(even under the influence) are still keeping up their guard since he is family. Sterling might be pushing the boundaries a bit too much at certain times(like when he pushed Brenna's head down) but remember he is under the influence as well and IS a young man with raging goblin tier hormones coursing through his veins He HAS to be the initiator if he ever wants to form a physical relationship with the girls. Or he can not do anything and wait for Hunter or some other guy to come along and take advantage of these women who are on superdoses of lab grade aphrodisiacs. Hunter will drug them even more and take advantage of them in that state. Or some random dude will come along and use them. He doesn't have to worry about that incestual aspect at all, and the girls will jump on him at first sight because they are so damn horny. I mean look at Brenna she is a literal sex addict who spends all day in bed humping her toys Lol. Now yeah I get it that we could all agree that Sterling could of just told everyone what Hunter was doing from the very get go and that's what most people would have done in real life, but that doesn't mean it would have been the better thing to do. Sterling didn't know how powerful Hunter truly was in the beginning. He didn't know all of the tricks he had up his sleeve, he thought he was just some crazy old man. Plus Hunter was blackmailing them just as Kevin had and who knows where he kept all that blackmail data stored at. This is why Sterling had to obey Hunter's every command in a lot of the bad ends(Sterling having to watch inside the wall, him having to go inside the female robot etc.) So the looming threat was always there. Especially more so the more Sterling finds out to what lengths Hunter would go to get what he wants. So all in all I would agree yes Sterling is a horny bastard who is using this whole drug opportunity to break down the girl's barriers but again he is the only one who truly loves and cares for the girls. It's pretty much the biggest goal that the MC wants to achieve. TOTAL WINCEST HAREM smh what a sicko this guy is am I right?

 

[storm1051787]

He does know, he tells Lucia that what Hunter is doing is part of the reason he's able to have sex with everyone when Lucia asks how it happened because Ophelia was such a prude.

He knows that they're being drugged and that he's being drugged which is why he bulked up. He doesnt know how or when they're are being drugged and he actively tries to remove any drugs whenever he finds them.

These three are related so I put them together. His proof was the tooth. He just used it to gaslight Brenna for some reason instead of telling her someone was drugging her. Even if he couldn't prove it was Hunter she KNEW she was under the influence of something because she couldn't see straight, knew she punched someone, and knew it was not Sterling because of the tooth. She spirals from that point because Sterling lies to her. When Sterling comes to see her looking up astral projection, he STILL doesn't tell her. He could have gotten Lucia to confirm it, shown her the food he was throwing away, the cameras, the robot, the diary, told her about Ophelia's lactating and connected it to her hairy bush. Instead he lets her think she's going crazy even suggesting it.

She doesn't know it's not Sterling. That's why she starts to freak out when he shows her his tooth. Sterling can't explain what happened because he has nothing strong enough to lead it back to Hunter. As for saying Sterling cold hae shown her the diary, the robot ect. He does to that. He just does it later once he feels like he's gathered enough evidece. That's literally one of the last things that happens in chapter 12. Sterling presents all the evidence he collects to try to expose Hunter and Hunter still almost ends up getting away with it and blame everything on Sterling. I really don't see how Sterling is somehow in the wrong for lying to Brenna here. He has a good reason for lying and tells the truth once he's actualy able too.

Brenna later gets gassed and forces a kiss on to Ophelia and it breaks her.

Sterling has no idea about Brenna kissing Sterling and I don't really see why that would be his fault anyway or how you can even try and link the event to Sterling lying to Brenna. Both this and the hotel Clerk thing you ring up later seem completely unrelated to the whole thing and even if they connected Sterling isn't responsible for how Brenna handles the news or her actions for it. I really don't see why you are blaming Sterling for anything that happened here at all.

Sterling lies again by implying it was all Catherine's fault conveniently

Because it was Catherine's fault. That wasn't a lie at all Catherine raped him

Then the vents kick in. While Sterling is fine pushing past Lucia's boundaries like he doesn't know Hunter's out there. Lucia is like "SOMETHING IS WRONG... I shouldn't feel like this..." Instead of seeing that as a red flag because there's a predator in the house, Sterling's like "Weeeeeeeeeeeelllll, I'm sure it's fine, let's just have sex."

Lucia already knows Hunter is drugging everyone and is Sterling's ally in the whole thing. If you're blaming Sterling for not figuring out something is wrong youd have to blame Lucia for the same reason and there both effected by the events. I also don't think saying "I shouldn't feel this way" is a red flag given that we've already established Lucia is weird and the "can't feel this way" part refers to Lucia wanting to have sex with Sterling while awake instead of molesting him in his sleep like she had been doing.

Even if she's out of line, how can he be so hypocritical? He's the main reason she is so paranoid

No he's not. You just decided that Sterling lying about the tooth was somehow the catalyist for everything Brenna has ever done for some reason. Brenna is pissed at Eileen and is lashing out at everything around here it has nothing to do with the tooth and I don't know why you are trying to forcibly connect the two events. Brenna hasn't even shown that she's even still upset or thinking about the tooth you keep getting upset for Sterling not telling Brenna the truth when does tell her the truth and he has a good reason for not telling her on the spot. How is that hypocritical at all and why are you blaming sterling for all this stuff? It just seems like weird leaps of logic like with the Lucia vent thing.

Again I don't know why you are blaming sterling for anything that happened here. You just decided on your own that Brenna was destroyed mentally by the tooth incident for whateer reason.

 

[AlwaysJustM]

A huge part of the girl's boundaries is the incestual aspect right? Sterling is the only man in their lives that is there for them emotionally. He wants to be the one there for them physically as well, but the girl's(even under the influence) are still keeping up their guard since he is family. Sterling might be pushing the boundaries a bit too much at certain times(like when he pushed Brenna's head down) but remember he is under the influence as well and IS a young man with raging goblin tier hormones coursing through his veins He HAS to be the initiator if he ever wants to form a physical relationship with the girls. Or he can not do anything and wait for Hunter or some other guy to come along and take advantage of these women who are on superdoses of lab grade aphrodisiacs. Hunter will drug them even more and take advantage of them in that state. Or some random dude will come along and use them. He doesn't have to worry about that incestual aspect at all, and the girls will jump on him at first sight because they are so damn horny. I mean look at Brenna she is a literal sex addict who spends all day in bed humping her toys Lol. Now yeah I get it that we could all agree that Sterling could of just told everyone what Hunter was doing from the very get go and that's what most people would have done in real life, but that doesn't happen here. But then again Sterling didn't know how powerful Hunter truly was in the beginning. He didn't know all of the tricks he had up his sleeve, he thought he was just some crazy old man. Plus Hunter was blackmailing them just as Kevin had and who knows where he kept all that blackmail data stored at. This is why Sterling had to obey Hunter's every command in a lot of the bad ends(Sterling having to watch inside the wall, him having to go inside the female robot etc.) So the looming threat was always there. Especially more so the more Sterling finds out to what lengths Hunter would go to get what he wants. So all in all I would agree yes Sterling is a horny bastard who is using this whole drug opportunity to break down the girl's barriers but again he is the only one who truly loves and cares for the girls. It's pretty much the biggest goal that the MC wants to achieve. TOTAL WINCEST HAREM smh what a sicko this guy is am I right?

I'm with you. The irony is that the incest and the harem are the least of the problematic behavior. The drugs are the ONLY moral problem.

I agree with you with everything else. The girls barely have any problem with incest. I don't even think they need to have a special bond with Sterling, they're just all horny freaks. They don't even have a problem being a harem.

It's just the drugs that make it impossible for Sterling to pursue them without being a monster and the game seems to focus on how morally wrong it is to seduce girls with drugs... I just don't get why it does that. Even if Sterling couldn't expose Hunter, the drugs leave no "right" way for Sterling to seduce. And he only gets worse by keeping it from them and seducing them anyway. It's like a stack of the worst possible options.

 

[Gwimmly]

I'm with you. The irony is that the incest and the harem are the least of the problematic behavior. The drugs are the ONLY moral problem.

I agree with you with everything else. The girls barely have any problem with incest. I don't even think they need to have a special bond with Sterling, they're just all horny freaks. They don't even have a problem being a harem.

It's just the drugs that make it impossible for Sterling to pursue them without being a monster and the game seems to focus on how morally wrong it is to seduce girls with drugs... I just don't get why it does that. Even if Sterling couldn't expose Hunter, the drugs leave no "right" way for Sterling to seduce. And he only gets worse by keeping it from them and seducing them anyway. It's like a stack of the worst possible options.

I do wonder what would have happened if the drugs were never introduced? Would there have ever been a chance that Sterling could have formed a sexual relationship with Ophelia or any of the other girls like his father David had with Nora? Until that little shit Drew came into the equation of course and i am still convinced Hunter helped Drew during that time with aphrodisiacs as well, but there's no proof so.

 

[AlwaysJustM]

He knows that they're being drugged and that he's being drugged which is why he bulked up. He doesnt know how or when they're are being drugged and he actively tries to remove any drugs whenever he finds them.

Yes, that's the point he KNOWS they are being drugged, does not tell them, and seduces them even forces himself on them. I'm pretty sure that's legally frowned on.

She doesn't know it's not Sterling. That's why she starts to freak out when he shows her his tooth.

Yes, exactly, once she examines Sterling, THEN she knows it wasn't him and begins to get paranoid trying to figure out what happened. The astral projection research, the feeling he was hiding something, the asking him not to lie. For some reason, despite all that, Sterling chooses to lie.

Sterling can't explain what happened because he has nothing strong enough to lead it back to Hunter.

That's not a very good reason for lying at all? What is the reason? I don't have enough evidence to prove it so I will tell you nothing happened? And make you think you were dreaming? What was the goal?

Her recognizing that who she just punched wasn't him is the best evidence he was going to get outside of Lucia. In Ch. 12, all his other evidence is useless and he instantly realizes that Brenna could corroborate his story because she was sure that she punched someone that tried to assault her and impersonate Sterling. He tries to convince her then which makes even less sense at that point when he's looking guilty. Why did he try to convince her it was a lie when he obviously thought it could be used as evidence?

As for saying Sterling cold hae shown her the diary, the robot ect. He does to that. He just does it later once he feels like he's gathered enough evidece. That's literally one of the last things that happens in chapter 12. Sterling presents all the evidence he collects to try to expose Hunter and Hunter still almost ends up getting away with it and blame everything on Sterling. I really don't see how Sterling is somehow in the wrong for lying to Brenna here. He has a good reason for lying and tells the truth once he's actualy able too.

She is literally under the effects of the drugs and aware of it at the moment he is talking and he knows it was in the shampoo AND most importantly he already has Lucia as a witness who has zero reason to lie to Brenna. She lives with the person preying on her. What possibly is the good reason to convince her it didn't happen?

Sterling has no idea about Brenna kissing Sterling and I don't really see why that would be his fault anyway or how you can even try and link the event to Sterling lying to Brenna. Both this and the hotel Clerk thing you ring up later seem completely unrelated to the whole thing and even if they connected Sterling isn't responsible for how Brenna handles the news or her actions for it. I really don't see why you are blaming Sterling for anything that happened here at all.

It's not his fault that she kisses Ophelia. It's his fault that he doesn't tell her what's going on which would clearly help with her paranoia. Even worse, he tells her that nothing is happening making her doubt her mind enough to look up out of body experiences.

Included this scene with Ophelia because it's showing the effect on her. It's evidence of the depression state you were asking about.

Similarly, Sterling knows she's reacting in paranoia to the clerk. He STILL doesn't think it's a good time to clear up what's happening to her which would obviously make her less paranoid because she'd understand what was going on with her head.

There's an entire movie about a man convincing his wife she was crazy by lying to her about things she was seeing (the movie is called Gaslight). Yes, all the crazy things the person will do is connected to you convincing them they are crazy by telling them that what they think is happening is not really happening.

Brenna talks about setting herself on fire or shooting herself in the face with a shotgun. It leads to Catherine trying to cheer her up. The story makes it pretty apparent that she's in a bad way and it's associated with trust issues and the effects the drugs have on her mind and behavior. I can't imagine any reason not to tell her when she's actively in danger and actively coming to think she can't trust her mind, making her more vulnerable to the person you're supposedly trying to protect her from. It really makes no sense.

Because it was Catherine's fault. That wasn't a lie at all Catherine raped him

Genuinely, you really think so? He has an entire sexual education course with Catherine asks her to get on birth control so they can have sex. Has a continual and consensual sexual relationship with her from the moment she gets on birth control. THAT is what Catherine means when she says "we've been having sex" and you don't see how summing that up as "she raped me" is a deception of the actual truth? I know no one I've dated would accept that that re-telling from me as 'truth'...

Lucia already knows Hunter is drugging everyone and is Sterling's ally in the whole thing. If you're blaming Sterling for not figuring out something is wrong youd have to blame Lucia for the same reason and there both effected by the events. I also don't think saying "I shouldn't feel this way" is a red flag given that we've already established Lucia is weird and the "can't feel this way" part refers to Lucia wanting to have sex with Sterling while awake instead of molesting him in his sleep like she had been doing.

Lucia does figure out something is wrong. That's the point. She figured out something was wrong and told Sterling. Sterling did not figure anything out and didn't even take it as seriously as Lucia when she told him.

Establishing that Lucia has a very specific way of behaving is exactly why it was a red flag. Sterling notices and calls out her behavior so it's obviously different from the established weird behavior, but for some reason doesn't think 'behavior-altering drugs' might be involved, which is just not very good detective work when trying to protect people from a predator they live with that uses 'behavior-altering drugs.'

He did not do anything wrong by NOT noticing it was a flag it just points out that his master plan to find evidence had a few holes in it since he didn't recognize evidence when he saw it. The bad part is it's hard to convince people all his actions were focused on protecting the girls and yet he wasn't as worried about the girls or Hunter even as much as Lucia was by not even checking on them to make sure they weren't gassed before focusing on his needs again...

No he's not. You just decided that Sterling lying about the tooth was somehow the catalyist for everything Brenna has ever done for some reason. Brenna is pissed at Eileen and is lashing out at everything around here it has nothing to do with the tooth and I don't know why you are trying to forcibly connect the two events. Brenna hasn't even shown that she's even still upset or thinking about the tooth you keep getting upset for Sterling not telling Brenna the truth when does tell her the truth and he has a good reason for not telling her on the spot. How is that hypocritical at all and why are you blaming sterling for all this stuff? It just seems like weird leaps of logic like with the Lucia vent thing.

Yes, concealing from someone that they are being drugged when they are concerned about their own erratic behavior AND lying to them when they get attacked by someone by convincing them it was all in their head or a dream is likely a catalyst in making them paranoid and mentally unstable.

There is literally a psychology term for that exact process called "gaslighting." It's not a stretch or weird connection.

Again I don't know why you are blaming sterling for anything that happened here. You just decided on your own that Brenna was destroyed mentally by the tooth incident for whateer reason.

Again, she wasn't destroyed by the tooth incident, she was messed up by losing control of her mind and having no explanation for what was happening to her. Whether Sterling was at fault doesn't make it any less messed up that he would gaslight her in that condition. And he had no good reason to do so. That's why it answers the 'what messed up things did he do?' question.

He immediately relies on Lucia when he gets in trouble in 12. Why wouldn't he use her to help Brenna know that she was in danger and she wasn't crazy? It really does not make any sense.

 

[AlwaysJustM]

I do wonder what would have happened if the drugs were never introduced? Would there have ever been a chance that Sterling could have formed a sexual relationship with Ophelia or any of the other girls like his father David had with Nora? Until that little shit Drew came into the equation of course and i am still convinced Hunter helped Drew during that time with aphrodisiacs as well, but there's no proof so.

Yeah, maybe it will all become clearer in 13, the author seems pretty sharp and is really focusing on the drugs. I just can't make sense why you would point out that seducing drugged women is awful and then make the whole story revolve around seducing known-to-be-drugged women.

I think it would have been great if Hunter was just like "Look one of us has to be the Dio del Sesso. So if you don't learn how to seduce them, I will." Sterling would be completely justified. It's only the drugs that actually makes it villainous. If no drugs are involved and they really just know how to drop panties... to me that's even better. Who can't win with drugs? It takes the power out of the game, imo. Either way, can't wait for the wrap up.

 

[storm1051787]

That's not a very good reason for lying at all? What is the reason? I don't have enough evidence to prove it so I will tell you nothing happened? And make you think you were dreaming? What was the goal?

How is that not a good reason for lying. Sterling has no proof that it's Hunter and cant say anything that doesnt mean Sterling lok like the guilty party even though he's innoccent.

Lucia does figure out something is wrong. That's the point. She figured out something was wrong and told Sterling. Sterling did not figure anything out and didn't even take it as seriously as Lucia when she told him.

No she doesn't figure out something's wrong. She just doesn't understand why she's horny while he's awake instead of again, Molesting him in his sleep like she's been repeatedly doing. That doesn't sound at all like something's wrong.

Establishing that Lucia has a very specific way of behaving is exactly why it was a red flag.

Her very specific way of sleep molesting people and the oddity of her being attracted while they're away. Are you saying that she can pretty much ony be into someone when they're asleep? This whole Lucia argument is absurd. Lucia is a weirdo that doesn't have human boundries and is not behaing like a somewhat normal person. No reason why anyone should assue that's a red flag.

Similarly, Sterling knows she's reacting in paranoia to the clerk. He STILL doesn't think it's a good time to clear up what's happening to her which would obviously make her less paranoid because she'd understand what was going on with her head.

Brenna being paranoid with the clerk has literally nothing to do with the earlier instance. You just decided to connect he two for whatever reason. You're whole problem is that you connected multiple unrelated isues to this one event.

Brenna talks about setting herself on fire or shooting herself in the face with a shotgun. It leads to Catherine trying to cheer her up.

Again the problem is that her depression has literally nothing to do about the tooth incident. You just decided to connect the two for whateer reason and what chapter does she mention wanting to shoot herelf and set herself on fire?

There is literally a psychology term for that exact process called "gaslighting." It's not a stretch or weird connection.

It's very much a stretch to claim at the entireity of someone's erratic behavior is to due to an event they seldomly mention or that her depression is linked mostly to one event at all. Brenna is upset about multiple different thigns that Sterling have nothing to do with and he's not even aware of most of these events

It's not his fault that she kisses Ophelia. It's his fault that he doesn't tell her what's going on which would clearly help with her paranoia

He doesn't know she's paranoid in the first place and how could he when he already established that it's not believableand that he doesn't have evidence for it? The only thing that could happen is that Sterling would get accused of druggng everyone which is exactly what happens in chapter 12 when he does try to expose Hunter.



You just decided for whatever reason that the tooth incident caused Brenna to start losing her mind when nothing in the game implies that she's upset about that. Then you're arguing at sterling for not exposing hunter even thoug the game already establishes why he can't expose hunter. It's completely ridiclous.

Genuinely, you really think so? He has an entire sexual education course with Catherine asks her to get on birth control so they can have sex. Has a continual and consensual sexual relationship with her from the moment she gets on birth control. THAT is what Catherine means when she says "we've been having sex" and you don't see how summing that up as "she raped me" is a deception of the actual truth? I know no one I've dated would accept that that re-telling from me as 'truth'...

Yes I genuinely think so. Sterling does start tryng to seduce her and try to have sex with her while cathrine has no boundries and sexually assaults multiple characters

She is literally under the effects of the drugs and aware of it at the moment he is talking and he knows it was in the shampoo AND most importantly he already has Lucia as a witness who has zero reason to lie to Brenna. She lives with the person preying on her. What possibly is the good reason to convince her it didn't happen?

We already see what happens when Sterling tries to expose Hunter. Nobody believes him and Sterling would have lost if Drew didn't decide to switch sides



I stll don't remotely see how you are connection Brenna's depression to sterling

Similarly, Sterling knows she's reacting in paranoia to the clerk. He STILL doesn't think it's a good time to clear up what's happening to her which would obviously make her less paranoid because she'd understand what was going on with her head.

The thing with the Clerk literally has nothing to do with Hunter or the Drugs. It's that she has trust issues from her past boyfriends cheating on her so she feels like she cna't trust anyone including the clerk. Which hey is another good reason for not coming clean about Hunter since she would just start accusing Sterling of lying and being the mastermind. Your whole argument is ridiculous.

 

[zindathar]

too much talking and no news about the next release, can someone please go knock on the door of WWG and asking about chapter 13???

 

[Fayn Arawn]

Your whole argument is ridiculous.

It's possible that AlwaysJustM is seeing patterns and connections that were never intended by WWG, but they have laid out, in painstaking detail, a compelling theory at least. You don't have to believe it or agree with it, but your dismissive attitude is unwarranted.

It's easy to be sympathetic to Sterling because the story is framed around him, but critical analysis shows that he has many flaws. In spite of that, I'm not condemning him entirely, because he's a very young man, with unresolved trauma, from a very dysfunctional family, and while he often acts mature I still think he's naive and a slave to his impulses.

Now, I think you bring up a good point that Hunter's attempted framing of Sterling in Chapter 12 validates Sterling for not moving against Hunter earlier. However, that's kind of a utilitarian justification, when many users here have argued that Sterling should've taken a deontological position early on and called Hunter's bluff, consequences be damned. I think the latter would've been more realistic, but obviously the former had to happen or it'd be a very different kind of story.

I'm just hoping for a satisfying ending, regardless of the outcome, but I will be slightly disappointed if Sterling comes through as a golden boy, and none of the points made by AlwaysJustM are addressed.

 

[Gwimmly]

It's possible that AlwaysJustM is seeing patterns and connections that were never intended by WWG, but they have laid out, in painstaking detail, a compelling theory at least. You don't have to believe it or agree with it, but your dismissive attitude is unwarranted.

It's easy to be sympathetic to Sterling because the story is framed around him, but critical analysis shows that he has many flaws. In spite of that, I'm not condemning him entirely, because he's a very young man, with unresolved trauma, from a very dysfunctional family, and while he often acts mature I still think he's naive and a slave to his impulses.

Now, I think you bring up a good point that Hunter's attempted framing of Sterling in Chapter 12 validates Sterling for not moving against Hunter earlier. However, that's kind of a utilitarian justification, when many users here have argued that Sterling should've taken a deontological position early on and called Hunter's bluff, consequences be damned. I think the latter would've been more realistic, but obviously the former had to happen or it'd be a very different kind of story.

I'm just hoping for a satisfying ending, regardless of the outcome, but I will be slightly disappointed if Sterling comes through as a golden boy, and none of the points made by AlwaysJustM are addressed.

As long as we can all agree that Hunter is most definitely not more compassionate than Sterling ..but yeah i do agree with you guys that Sean should get his own game...

 

[storm1051787]

It's possible that AlwaysJustM is seeing patterns and connections that were never intended by WWG, but they have laid out, in painstaking detail, a compelling theory at least. You don't have to believe it or agree with it, but your dismissive attitude is unwarranted.

I'm dismissive because It's a massive reach. It's established that Brenna has trust issues because of her past boyfriends but her descent into madness is because of a single event with Sterling taht's only mentioned once and that he literally can't say anything is the reason why she's upset? And why he's to blame for events he literally doesn't know about? What how does that make any sense?

Now, I think you bring up a good point that Hunter's attempted framing of Sterling in Chapter 12 validates Sterling for not moving against Hunter earlier. However, that's kind of a utilitarian justification, when many users here have argued that Sterling should've taken a deontological position early on and called Hunter's bluff,

I don't think it's utliltarian to say Sterling doesn't say anything because he doesn't have proof. Hunter has hardly even spent any time with anyone in the family without Sterling also being around and in those scenes Hunter just presents himself as a harmless old man. If Brenna already had preexisting trust issues I have no idea why Brenna would ever believe him or why Ophelia would believe the suggestion that her Dad is trying to sleep with her.


So No I dont really agree with anything AlwaysjustM says. At best you complain that the plot doesn't make it believeable but most of his complaints isn't about that. It's that Sterling is somehow to blame for Brenna's depression and I haven't seen any signs in the game that Brenna is even bothered by the event. His argument with Lucia is also a very clear double standard. That Sterling should somehow know something was wrong with Lucia and back off even though Lucia is already fully aware of the drugs, established to be smarter than sterling but didn't figure it out either. He's literally blaming sterling for not knowing about things

 

[AlwaysJustM]

How is that not a good reason for lying. Sterling has no proof that it's Hunter and cant say anything that doesnt mean Sterling lok like the guilty party even though he's innoccent.

Brenna knows Sterling isn't guilty by the time she examines his face so, no, it actually clears him from guilt. And obviously when Lucia backs up his story that Hunter was in the room with her she'd have no reason not to believe him.

No she doesn't figure out something's wrong. She just doesn't understand why she's horny while he's awake instead of again, Molesting him in his sleep like she's been repeatedly doing. That doesn't sound at all like something's wrong.

No, it was the kissing that she enjoyed which led her to trying it with a bunch of other people to figure out why. It was a whole section for her.

Her very specific way of sleep molesting people and the oddity of her being attracted while they're away. Are you saying that she can pretty much ony be into someone when they're asleep? This whole Lucia argument is absurd. Lucia is a weirdo that doesn't have human boundries and is not behaing like a somewhat normal person. No reason why anyone should assue that's a red flag.

Sterling assumed it was different behavior from her normal behavior. He said it plainly. It was obviously out of character and Sterling acknowledged it. It really was an entire section where he asked her not to do anything weird trying to find out.

Brenna being paranoid with the clerk has literally nothing to do with the earlier instance. You just decided to connect he two for whatever reason. You're whole problem is that you connected multiple unrelated isues to this one event.

I think part of the problem is you not remembering the story so well. How did you completely miss Lucia's kissing arc and that Brenna was depressed? You might be missing the connections because you're missing the context and parts of the events.

Either way the connections were not really relevant to the question about Sterling mistreating her. It doesn't have to be connected to every bad future event and ruin her life for it to be messed up that he deceived her about being attacked.

It surely did not help.

Again the problem is that her depression has literally nothing to do about the tooth incident. You just decided to connect the two for whateer reason and what chapter does she mention wanting to shoot herelf and set herself on fire?

Why would you think hallucinating and losing control of her mind would not be connected to her paranoia and depression? I'll accept that's how you feel, but it seems pretty easy to connect it not being a great experience.

She talks about setting herself on fire two lines after the part I linked where she talks to Sterling about letting him take all the credit and not wanting anything to do with it.

She talks about shooting herself in the face with a shotgun during the Boner Olympics. "Whereas I feel like I'm days away from getting a shotgun and flipping a coin on whether to use it backwards or forwards..."

Regardless, of connections, lying to her about it was messed up. It just got more messed up the more he lied about it. And what she did not know certainly affected how the future situations like kissing Ophelia affected her.

It's very much a stretch to claim at the entireity of someone's erratic behavior is to due to an event they seldomly mention or that her depression is linked mostly to one event at all. Brenna is upset about multiple different thigns that Sterling have nothing to do with and he's not even aware of most of these events

Yes, and most of these things are made worse or the direct result of her being drugged which is why Sterling obviously should have told her. It's messed up not to AND especially then try to seduce her.

He doesn't know she's paranoid in the first place and ...

He does know she's paranoid as I quoted. "I still feel like you're hiding something..." He doubles down on accusing her of holding her "dream" against him, which he knows is a lie.

He also calls her paranoid multiple times in the other quotes.

...how could he when he already established that it's not believableand that he doesn't have evidence for it?
The only thing that could happen is that Sterling would get accused of druggng everyone which is exactly what happens in chapter 12 when he does try to expose Hunter.

How did he establish that it was unbelievable? Where are you getting these conclusions? He knew that letting her see his tooth would convince her that it wasn't him and that's why he goes to her after she punches Hunter. Why would she accuse him of drugging her when she saw that it clearly wasn't him that she punched as soon as she examined his face?

If it was only going to get him accused of drugging, then why did he try to use it to clear his name in Ch 12? He obviously did not think it would make him look worse and it didn't... He flat out tells Brenna he lied to her, doesn't explain why, and she doesn't call him out on it and even says "We just need to check his tooth." She didn't accuse Sterling again and to stop them checking his tooth Hunter shows his fake evidence. It did not get him accused at all, I don't see any evidence for what you're assuming here.

You just decided for whatever reason that the tooth incident caused Brenna to start losing her mind when nothing in the game implies that she's upset about that.

She literally brings it up three more times, and makes a rule about him lying which he KNOWS is because of the tooth thing which leads her to saying she feels like he's hiding something from her.

Another time she is exhausted looking up out of body experiences which Sterling know is because of the tooth thing. What do you mean nothing implies she was upset about it? I can't make sense of your reasoning, brother. Of course she was upset about it.

Even if she wasn't it still doesn't make it any less messed up for Sterling to have lied about it which was the answer to your original question.

Then you're arguing at sterling for not exposing hunter even thoug the game already establishes why he can't expose hunter. It's completely ridiclous.

I'm not arguing at Sterling, what does that mean? The game did not establish why he could not tell Brenna after she got drugged and believed it wasn't Sterling and neither have you given one actual reason for it. You're not actually explaining a reason you're just contradicting my conclusions. You also seem to not remember a lot of the context. I would love to understand your reasoning but you have to actually explain the support for it in the story or we'll just keep going in loops.

Yes I genuinely think so. Sterling does start tryng to seduce her and try to have sex with her while cathrine has no boundries and sexually assaults multiple characters

Yes, so Sterling started and tried to seduce her and then had a continuous sexual relationship with her. That's obviously very different than "she raped me" which makes it seem like one one-sided event.

To me, that's still flagrantly distorting the truth and it's easy to see why because Sterling had told Catherine to lie to Brenna. He could have gone at any time and said "Catherine is raping me." He obviously did not mind throwing her under the bus, so why did he tell her to lie? The same reason he's covering up what he did by pretending it was ALL Catherine just raping him.

We already see what happens when Sterling tries to expose Hunter. Nobody believes him and Sterling would have lost if Drew didn't decide to switch sides

We see that in CH 12 and Brenna believes him and said "How can we check Hunter's tooth?" Again, I don't see the support in the story for what you're assuming here.

I stll don't remotely see how you are connection Brenna's depression to sterling

I see that. But it also seems you may not have done the story as recently as you're forgetting entire sections. Doesn't mean I'm right, it's just hard to discuss if we don't agree on what actually happened.

But yes in general, thinking you're losing your mind can be depressing. If you only think you're losing your mind because someone is lying to you, then there is your connection. That's why it's messed up.

The thing with the Clerk literally has nothing to do with Hunter or the Drugs. It's that she has trust issues from her past boyfriends cheating on her so she feels like she cna't trust anyone including the clerk.

This is even more reason why it was messed up for Sterling to lie to her when he promised not to, which is the actual point. The point was Sterling does messed up stuff to her. The situations just show why it was SO messed up.

Which hey is another good reason for not coming clean about Hunter since she would just start accusing Sterling of lying and being the mastermind. Your whole argument is ridiculous.

This is still not true because, again, she believed him as soon as she saw his tooth that it wasn't him. She continued to believe him when he told her and even admitted to lying to her convincing her it was a dream.

My argument seems ridiculous to you because we don't agree about what happened. Everything you say, like Brenna would blame Sterling if he told her, is not what happens in the story so I can't understand why you make those assumptions.

But, I've explained the answer to your question and will accept that you just disagree with my definition of 'mistreatment'. Since you're getting a bit insulting, we don't need to continue, it's not worth getting mad about, brother. It's not personal.

 

[AlwaysJustM]

As long as we can all agree that Hunter is most definitely not more compassionate than Sterling ..but yeah i do agree with you guys that Sean should get his own game...

Yes we can all agree to that. Just finished the ch 12 NTR and I should have trusted my instincts and not read it...

Had WWG been going through something in the last couple chapters because, man, the darkness amplified... Hope he's alright for real.

 

[Gwimmly]

Yes we can all agree to that. Just finished the ch 12 NTR and I should have trusted my instincts and not read it...

Had WWG been going through something in the last couple chapters because, man, the darkness amplified... Hope he's alright for real.

To be honest i think he was planning do be super dark from the very beginning. If you read his comments early in this thread he makes it seem like this game was intended to be an NTR focused game first and foremost. I could be misremembering this but he never planned for there to be ntr bad ends it was just going to be an ntr route and a vanilla route. He caught a bunch of flak for the ntr in the very beginning so he started to gravitate towards more vanilla focus and then he started to integrate the bad ends later on. Someone please correct me if i am wrong on this but that's what i remember picking up from reading the early thread discussions with him and players. Even the fact he chose a disgusting old man to be the main ntr antagonist says something lol and then later on giving beast content. Not to mention the awesome ahegao faces I think he was just testing the waters to see how crazy he could really get. He finally found a perfect balance to appease both ntr fans and vanilla fans. Honestly it makes a lot of sense to me because i never understood why the hell Hunter would pump Sterling full of HGH creating a complete Chad out of him lol. I mean yeah sure maybe he planned to swap bodies with Sterling one day now that we know he is capable of it. But idk it just seems like such an odd thing for Hunter to do.

 

[AlwaysJustM]

It's possible that AlwaysJustM is seeing patterns and connections that were never intended by WWG, but they have laid out, in painstaking detail, a compelling theory at least. You don't have to believe it or agree with it, but your dismissive attitude is unwarranted.

It's easy to be sympathetic to Sterling because the story is framed around him, but critical analysis shows that he has many flaws. In spite of that, I'm not condemning him entirely, because he's a very young man, with unresolved trauma, from a very dysfunctional family, and while he often acts mature I still think he's naive and a slave to his impulses.

Now, I think you bring up a good point that Hunter's attempted framing of Sterling in Chapter 12 validates Sterling for not moving against Hunter earlier. However, that's kind of a utilitarian justification, when many users here have argued that Sterling should've taken a deontological position early on and called Hunter's bluff, consequences be damned. I think the latter would've been more realistic, but obviously the former had to happen or it'd be a very different kind of story.

I'm just hoping for a satisfying ending, regardless of the outcome, but I will be slightly disappointed if Sterling comes through as a golden boy, and none of the points made by AlwaysJustM are addressed.

Thanks for the support! I'm more than willing to be wrong and am trying to discuss the details in good faith.

I agree that he shouldn't have called Hunter's bluff in the beginning. But in messing up his plans he kind of does just that. Hunter ends every chapter with threats because Sterling is interfering. He's actually losing body parts. If he believes the threats he would need all the allies he could get and if Hunter got to him he wouldn't have a chance to tell them like most of the NTRs.

ESPECIALLY because Brenna's tooth incident was really the best evidence in the game. She knew she was loopy and would have good reason to believe she was drugged. She had her memory of thinking she saw Sterling, but was able to prove to herself it wasn't him by examining Sterling's face. She knew that whoever that person was, they tried to have sex with her. Hunter's blood was on the floor. She knew she knocked a tooth out. Her hand hurt. All of that and Lucia's corroboration really should have been enough. It was as close to red-handed as Sterling was going to get. She even still believes him when he admits to lying about it being a dream in CH 12. So, I really can't see any logical reason Sterling did not tell her at that point.

I can see from a plot progression point, so it might have just been a case of writing yourself into a corner and an unintentional consequence. After completing it all, I'm less confident it's an actual subversive villain arc. It certainly would throw a wrench in Brenna and Sterling's relationship progression if she finds out that they're drugged. That's not a good reason for Sterling not to tell her, but it is necessary to not mess up the plot from the writer's perspective. So, I can understand that the resulting appearance of Sterling being messed up may not have been intentional.

 

[AlwaysJustM]

To be honest i think he was planning do be super dark from the very beginning. If you read his comments early in this thread he makes it seem like this game was intended to be an NTR focused game first and foremost. I could be misremembering this but he never planned for there to be ntr bad ends it was just going to be an ntr route and a vanilla route. He caught a bunch of flak for the ntr in the very beginning so he started to gravitate towards more vanilla focus and then he started to integrate the bad ends later on. Someone please correct me if i am wrong on this but that's what i remember picking up from reading the early thread discussions with him and players. Even the fact he chose a disgusting old man to be the main ntr antagonist says something lol and then later on giving beast content. Not to mention the awesome ahegao faces I think he was just testing the waters to see how crazy he could really get. He finally found a perfect balance to appease both ntr fans and vanilla fans. Honestly it makes a lot of sense to me because i never understood why the hell Hunter would pump Sterling full of HGH creating a complete Chad out of him lol. I mean yeah sure maybe he planned to swap bodies with Sterling one day now that we know he is capable of it. But idk it just seems like such an odd thing for Hunter to do.

I missed the early days but that's the impression I got upon completing as well. The NTRs are so fleshed out and detailed they do feel like the canon intent lol.

A lot of the things I'm seeing can easily be the result of not being supposed to take the story THAT seriously for the reasons like you said. It's a porn game after all appeasing two types of fans. Sometimes you forgo logical consistency to give the fans what they want. That makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Negan22]

To be honest i think he was planning do be super dark from the very beginning. If you read his comments early in this thread he makes it seem like this game was intended to be an NTR focused game first and foremost. I could be misremembering this but he never planned for there to be ntr bad ends it was just going to be an ntr route and a vanilla route. He caught a bunch of flak for the ntr in the very beginning so he started to gravitate towards more vanilla focus and then he started to integrate the bad ends later on. Someone please correct me if i am wrong on this but that's what i remember picking up from reading the early thread discussions with him and players. Even the fact he chose a disgusting old man to be the main ntr antagonist says something lol and then later on giving beast content. Not to mention the awesome ahegao faces I think he was just testing the waters to see how crazy he could really get. He finally found a perfect balance to appease both ntr fans and vanilla fans. Honestly it makes a lot of sense to me because i never understood why the hell Hunter would pump Sterling full of HGH creating a complete Chad out of him lol. I mean yeah sure maybe he planned to swap bodies with Sterling one day now that we know he is capable of it. But idk it just seems like such an odd thing for Hunter to do.

The main audience here and the supporters on Patreon are still majority ntr fans, I hardly see any vanilla faces here, the tiny few that are here, mostly cry about how WWG focus more on ntr and I sure as hell know that he is trying hard to appeas his majority ntr fan base on Patreon.

The NTRs are so fleshed out and detailed they do feel like the canon intent lol.

 

[AlwaysJustM]

I'm dismissive because It's a massive reach. It's established that Brenna has trust issues because of her past boyfriends but her descent into madness is because of a single event with Sterling taht's only mentioned once and that he literally can't say anything is the reason why she's upset? And why he's to blame for events he literally doesn't know about? What how does that make any sense?



I don't think it's utliltarian to say Sterling doesn't say anything because he doesn't have proof. Hunter has hardly even spent any time with anyone in the family without Sterling also being around and in those scenes Hunter just presents himself as a harmless old man. If Brenna already had preexisting trust issues I have no idea why Brenna would ever believe him or why Ophelia would believe the suggestion that her Dad is trying to sleep with her.


So No I dont really agree with anything AlwaysjustM says. At best you complain that the plot doesn't make it believeable but most of his complaints isn't about that. It's that Sterling is somehow to blame for Brenna's depression and I haven't seen any signs in the game that Brenna is even bothered by the event. His argument with Lucia is also a very clear double standard. That Sterling should somehow know something was wrong with Lucia and back off even though Lucia is already fully aware of the drugs, established to be smarter than sterling but didn't figure it out either. He's literally blaming sterling for not knowing about things

Hey, brother! Your understanding of what I'm saying is a little different than what I mean... Based on your understanding I can see your side. I'm not going to continue to try to explain it because sometimes you gotta let it go, but I see where you were coming from and what is causing the confusion or miscommunication.

Thanks for the effort and I enjoyed the discussion. I'd been meaning to dig in analyzing the story and this helped.

 

[SuddenReal]

I could be misremembering this but he never planned for there to be ntr bad ends it was just going to be an ntr route and a vanilla route.

I don't think he ever planned on an NTR route. Something like that would have been impossible, since there's no going back. Either Sterling wins or Hunter wins. There's no in between. So that would mean that after chapter one, there's two routes. Sterling and Hunter 1. After chapter two, it's four routes. Sterling, Hunter 1, Hunter 2 and Hunter 1-2. And so on. Each branching path would have more branching paths.

But you are correct that he was planning on going super dark from the beginning, but he'd never get Patreon approval for that, so he toned it down.

 

[storm1051787]

Brenna knows Sterling isn't guilty by the time she examines his face so, no, it actually clears him from guilt. And obviously when Lucia backs up his story that Hunter was in the room with her she'd have no reason not to believe him.

That doesn't clear him from guilt and Brenna already has trust issues.

I think part of the problem is you not remembering the story so well.

I'm literally sitting with the game open and replaying every scene so I don't say something incorrect. That's why it's taken me over an hour to reply even though I saw this comment when it was first only a few mins old. The problem is not me misremebering events. Like I said I'm lierally replaying the game while typing. Its that I don't believe in A your reasoning for a lot of things. Or B tht a lot of the events are connected. The Clerk thing is very clearly mre about Elieen and doesn't have anything to do with the two incident. Same with her depression. This is clearly mostly about Elieen and not about Brenna thinking she's crazy. Which is what's also actually feeding into her paranoia. She has pre existing trust issues that Elieen is bringng back up while also being wierded out by the thing with Ophelia.

Yes, so Sterling started and tried to seduce her and then had a continuous sexual relationship with her. That's obviously very different than "she raped me" which makes it seem like one one-sided event.

Cathrine literally iniated both of those with her lack of boundaries. Not sterling. Cathrine repeatedly pushes her boundaries and even in the first chapter decided she was going to kiss sterling, then later decides she was just going to give sterling a blow job

Why would you think hallucinating and losing control of her mind would not be connected to her paranoia and depression? I'll accept that's how you feel, but it seems pretty easy to connect it not being a great experience.

Because like I said the event with the tooth is not brought up again and Brenna's main issue is established to be her trust issues which is what feed into her paranoia

We see that in CH 12 and Brenna believes him and said "How can we check Hunter's tooth?" Again, I don't see the support in the story for what you're assuming here.

Brenna saying how would they check is not proof that she believes Stering. It's asking Sterling to provide proof of his accusation

I see that. But it also seems you may not have done the story as recently as you're forgetting entire sections.

I've literally been replaying the game as I've talked to you. Connecting everything wrong with Brenna to the tooth incident is nonsense.

He does know she's paranoid as I quoted. "I still feel like you're hiding something..." He doubles down on accusing her of holding her "dream" against him, which he knows is a lie.

Again he doesn't know she's paranoid in the first place. He just knows she's about to accuse him again. Most of the events you're talking about Sterling wasn't around for.

How did he establish that it was unbelievable? Where are you getting these conclusions?

The fact that they literally don't believe him when he accuses Hunter. And the fact that Hunter successfully flips the accusations

The game did not establish why he could not tell Brenna after she got drugged

The game establishes it in literally the fisrt chapter that nobody will believe Sterling. That Sterling decides he needs to gather proof and expose hunter at once and that Hunter is spying on the and will make it look like Sterling did it which is literally exactly what happen. The bigger queston I have is why you are convinced at all that Sterling ene could tell the truth.

If it was only going to get him accused of drugging, then why did he try to use it to clear his name in Ch 12?

He tried to use it AND Hunter's fake eyeball, and Hunter's drugs, and the Robot suit. He doesnt present one evidence and say that's good enough he gathers multiple evidence so he actually has a case incase it falls through. Even with the proof Hunter had everyone convinced until Lucia showed up with the gas canisters.

Regardless, of connections, lying to her about it was messed up

I don't think it was messed up at all or do I think that it's connected to Brenna's behavior when the problem is very clearly Elieen. I do not think sterling was ever in the wrong for this and I think you are reading way to much into it by trying to connect these events. Sterling established a reason why he doesn't come forward. And even if you don't believe Sterling's reasoning the important thing is that he believes in that reasoning. Sterling believes that telling Brenna the truth will do more harm than good so he decides to wait until later. I don't know why you are connecting the events to her parania though

ESPECIALLY because Brenna's tooth incident was really the best evidence in the game.

Except it's not good evvidence. She literally points out right away that Hunter has all his teeth. They make fake teeth to be just like real teeth and there isn't a good way to prove Hunter got a fake tooth.

My argument seems ridiculous to you because we don't agree about what happened. Everything you say, like Brenna would blame Sterling if he told her, is not what happens in the story so I can't understand why you make those assumptions.

It's literally what happens in the story. I replayed the scene the past 4 times.

No, it was the kissing that she enjoyed which led her to trying it with a bunch of other people to figure out why. It was a whole section for her.

I was unsure what part ofthe game you were talking about. Regardless my argument with Lucia is the exact same. Lucia already knows Hunter is drugging everyone. Lucia is already established to be smarter than Sterling, Sterling is also getting drugged. This is not Sterling taking advantage of Lucia. This is literally just Lucia not caring and Sterling being to dumb to kow what's going on. Lucia literally has the capability to stop sterling at any time and chooses not to while also assaulting people

Hey, brother! Your understanding of what I'm saying is a little different than what I mean... Based on your understanding I can see your side. I'm not going to continue to try to explain it because sometimes you gotta let it go, but I see where you were coming from and what is causing the confusion or miscommunication.

Thanks for the effort and I enjoyed the discussion. I'd been meaning to dig in analyzing the story and this helped.

It's not based off a misunderstanding at all. You're aking leaps in logic that I fundamentally disagree with. The Brenna tooth thing being the biggest thing I disagree with to the point where I literally don't understand how you, Fayn Arawn or anyone else could arrived at the conclusion instead of the more obvious explanations the game literally gives us. You're reading way to into things and connecting eents that aren' actually connected or have anything to do with each other.


It's one thing to say that Sterling arriving at the conclusion that he has to lie is not very reasonable. It another thing to argue that he was morally wrong for doing so when he very clearly things telling the truth will cause her harm. I said it earlier and I aid it again. I think your entire argument is ridiclous and would be better if you redirect it at the plot for not being convincing enough.


No I don't agree that Sterling did anything wrong at all in regards to Brenna or Lucia and while he took advantage of Catherine's naivity in some parts she's still the one who initiates everything. He just chooses not to shut her down.