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I think a big part of the Veronica criticism is because she mixes multiple tropes.

If she was a toxic Goth chick, she'd have devotees building idols to her in their basements, but because she looks like a busty milf but has some obsessive traits, it just causes some people to short-circuit.

But, not every LI has to be for everyone. I think it's kinda good to go after different player preferences rather than have a bunch of LIs that only vary by hair colour and clothing.
 

Jack Townsend

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I know that Veronica is perceived as clingy and overly possessive. But she also seems to get off on having rivalries with other women. She seems to like the idea of letting another woman have sex with her boyfriend and then proving to him that she's the better lover by screwing his brains out. Her rivalry with Jasmine is the best example of this. And my MC has been working this rivalry to the max. :sneaky:
 

TonyMurray

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I don't really have a problem with Veronica other than having most of the other girls ahead of her in the pecking order. She has her priorities and she's trying to lock Jake down before he can get away from her, and that comes across as a bit needy and/or desperate. Normally that would be a bit annoying maybe, but it's her timing here that makes it more of an issue than it should be, and in normal circumstances, I might wonder if that's because she knows Jake will be spending time with Allison because of what happened, and Veronica doesn't want to risk them getting back together because she didn't lock down "her man" in time.
 

Krytax123

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I don't really have a problem with Veronica other than having most of the other girls ahead of her in the pecking order. She has her priorities and she's trying to lock Jake down before he can get away from her, and that comes across as a bit needy and/or desperate. Normally that would be a bit annoying maybe, but it's her timing here that makes it more of an issue than it should be, and in normal circumstances, I might wonder if that's because she knows Jake will be spending time with Allison because of what happened, and Veronica doesn't want to risk them getting back together because she didn't lock down "her man" in time.
It sure is one of the reasons, Jasmine implies that if we take Allison to the ball and Veronica is even outright asking the MC when you go to the hike date with her. It gives the option to confirm that the MC intends to go back to his ex-wife given the chance which leads to the break-up immediatly.

Imo there are multiple problems with Veronice, most avn readers dont really like to be locked in a relationship from the very beginning and its kinda even worse here as the MC doesnt even perceive it as a relationship unlike her which makes her look so fucking desperate and needy (some guys are into that tho).

She lacks confidence (some guys are into that too tho ...) as seen in her interactions with jasmine. Shes like a lovesick puppy who's close to obsessed with a guy who barely gives her any attention lol

Her biggest flaw in this story by far is that shes very self-centered and egoistic with the whole lily thing, if theres on time window to not press for commitment, its probably when the child of your partner is close to dying.

The whole situation kinda sucks for V (if the player decides to no go for her) but bitch please.

Imo its just a very obvious case from of two people who are not fitting for each other, the timing is bad.

Veronica wants to lock her man down, wants marriage, a husband, probably kids while Jake had all of that already and kinda either wants the opposite like freedom/excitement (jasmine) or to get his family back (allison)
 

AlexMpog

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I played it a while ago, but from what I remember - Veronica didn't even know how serious situation with Lily is, because dickhead MC didn’t bother to actually explain it to her properly (I think there were 2 choices - tell her vaguely or don’t tell).
Once V finally finds out, though, she immediately offers all the support she can provide.

I guess "Husband of the Year" and/or "Boyfriend of the Year" titles would be quite accurate.
 
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Krytax123

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I played it a while ago, but from what I remember - Veronica didn't even know how serious situation with Lily is, because dickhead MC didn’t bother to actually explain it to her (I think there were 2 choices - tell her vaguely or don’t tell).
Once V finally finds out, though, she immediately offers all the support she can provide.

I guess "Husband of the Year" and/or "Boyfriend of the Year" titles would be well deserved.
Thats wrong, if you reply to the call from her, MC is telling her about Lily being hurt and in coma just after he got back from the hospital, slept and looked the new hospital up. Its the same afternoon of his first day off.

Considering he doesnt even see himself in a relationship thats hardly "boyfriend of the year" or anything like that.
 
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maxthruster

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Conference spoilers
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Ok, so I finally finished doing this bit again, this time with more focus split between the girls but still keeping the relatioship with V.
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I played it a while ago, but from what I remember - Veronica didn't even know how serious situation with Lily is, because dickhead MC didn’t bother to actually explain it to her (I think there were 2 choices - tell her vaguely or don’t tell).
Once V finally finds out, though, she immediately offers all the support she can provide.

I guess "Husband of the Year" and/or "Boyfriend of the Year" titles would be well deserved.
He didn't tell her immediately, due to being in a fucked up headspace when she first reached out and not having the capacity to really talk about Lily's accident. But he did tell her a couple days later when he went back to the college and saw her again. I don't think that it's unreasonable, given the circumstances, to want a couple days to pull yourself together before talking about your daughter being in a coma.
 

Ciaran8023

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I think people saying "oh she just wants to lock him down" vastly undersells how toxic her behaviour actually is when you start looking at it closer.
I've seen literal r/amithedevil reddit posts with people less toxic than she is with the amount of controlling she wants to employ. She's like what, late 30's and her idea of solidifying a relationship is to continually push someone who's in arguably the most emotionally vulnerable state of his entire life AND try to limit his connection to any other female.

As someone else stated, if this wasn't a game, there would be restraining orders filed.


Veronica is a bad LI, but she is a good character.
She evokes emotions and makes us discuss her. We should give her that.
I mean sure, but the arguments between the two sides are basically 'sex scene hot me unga bunga smash likey' and 'Guys, is she going to stab us in our sleep later on in the game?'.

Discussions are great, but I don't think the two sides are able to have an actual conversation.
 

Michkooo

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As someone else stated, if this wasn't a game, there would be restraining orders filed.
That's thing tho, it's a game, a porn game even. I don't see why are you projecting real-world stuff and behavior into a porn game aiming to not be realistic and having all women throw themselves at the MC.


Of course Jake being hot and successful, he deserves all the attention he gets, but I can understand Veronica frustration because she wants to commit with him. She's far from perfect but people tend to judge her too harshly because she is by default with Jake at the beginning of the game and the player feels he wasn't part of that decision. If the exact same Veronica was in the school without being with Jake, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would rejoice into seducing her.
 

maxthruster

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That's thing tho, it's a game, a porn game even. I don't see why are you projecting real-world stuff and behavior into a porn game aiming to not be realistic and having all women throw themselves at the MC.
I mean, sure, there's obviously some suspension of disbelief, but I don't think there's anything wrong with seeing a fictional character or scenario, going "if this was real I'd hate it," and deciding you don't enjoy it. Lots of people do that, whether it's picking love interests in a dating game or deciding not to watch Game of Thrones because of the incest.

Of course Jake being hot and successful, he deserves all the attention he gets, but I can understand Veronica frustration because she wants to commit with him. She's far from perfect but people tend to judge her too harshly because she is by default with Jake at the beginning of the game and the player feels he wasn't part of that decision. If the exact same Veronica was in the school without being with Jake, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would rejoice into seducing her.
I think you're absolutely right that V would probably appeal to more people if she was the pursued rather than the pursuer in the relationship - as was the guy who pointed out that, if she was a character archetype more appealing to people who find mental illness hot, she'd have more fans - but I think the specific criticisms being put forth at the moment would hold true whether she was acting that way in chapter 1 or chapter 57. Wanting to lock down a relationship is fine, wanting your partner to be monogamous is fine, but if you squeeze something too tightly eventually it will burst.
 

Ciaran8023

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That's thing tho, it's a game, a porn game even. I don't see why are you projecting real-world stuff and behavior into a porn game aiming to not be realistic and having all women throw themselves at the MC.
Because character behaviour is always rooted in the real world, and just exaggerated. If you're going to make a character that you want people to feel attached to in any way, you have to make them actually.. y'know, human. The issue here is that there are plenty of real world individuals that are like her and relationships with these types of individuals never goes well.

It was a bold move to make a character based on a type of individual that people actively avoid unless they're suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or have some severe self-esteem and self-respect issues.


Michkooo said:
Of course Jake being hot and successful, he deserves all the attention he gets, but I can understand Veronica frustration because she wants to commit with him.
No no, to commit to a relationship is a decision based on mutual trust and respect. She wants to have him. She doesn't respect the MC enough to give him time to think or decompress, she doesn't trust him enough to leave him alone with women.

Michkooo said:
She's far from perfect but people tend to judge her too harshly
Brotherman, we just went over that the real life archetype this is based on are individuals that get restraining orders filed against them. That's not "judging too harshly", that's being realistic in regards to her level of toxicity.
 

maxthruster

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To put aside the argument about whether V is or isn't a bad partner for just a moment, I want to speculate on another aspect of her character that could be holding her back: would she be more tolerable if she were more closely tied to Jake's life? There are five main love interests: the ex wife, the girlfriend, the student, the neighbor, and the best friend's neighbor. In that hierarchy, you'd imagine V would rank at or at least near the top, with either Allison or Natalya at the bottom.

But when you consider the events of the game and the aspects of Jake's life that really makes the story - his work with the battery, his racing career, and Lily - V has one of the more tenuous connections to his day to day. Jasmine, obviously, is his assistant in the lab and the only one who really knows anything about his racing work. And Allie is the mother of his child, sharing the pain of Lily's accident.

Then there's Natalya, who proves quite knowledgeable when discussing the project and who eagerly gets involved in several events to help Jake. Maggie hasn't had a ton of direct involvement either, but her storyline is suggested to be more deeply tied to Jake's than it seems on the surface due to Wyatt's appearances. Both are currently on the outside looking in, but have good reason to expect greater involvement in near future updates.

By contrast, V has been involved with his battery project since the beginning, and while she doesn't know about the racing she was one of the first people Jake told about Lily's accident. If you stick with her, you can take her to various events and work together to promote the battery, but none of her unique scenes really pull her any closer to Jake's life.

Now, this isn't me trying to make the argument of "all women should exist to serve the man's needs" or whatever crap. Blegh, gross. But as the story has progressed we've seen the other four gradually get closer to Jake by tying themselves to the main story, the things he's experiencing as he tries to save his daughter. But Veronica stands stagnant at the edge of his world, doing her best to pull him into hers.

Pretty much every unique scene Veronica has in the game is on her terms: going over to her apartment, finding her in the library, going hiking or taking a yoga class with her, her constant desire to surprise Jake and keep him in suspense. And, again, not saying that they need to do his stuff all the time. She obviously has a life outside him and it's nice to look in on it. But when the other girls are getting more involved with Jake's side of things, the side of the story that keeps us here between the lewds, it makes her feel more like a distraction rather than a component.

Of course, it's not her fault she's on the periphery like that. She mentions early on that she wants to get more involved in Jake's life, meet Lily and Cooper and everyone else that matters to him. The fact that she's not as involved is honestly more on him than on her. But for us as viewers, I think it becomes harder to get attached to her, especially in the way she wants us to, if we never feel like she's truly a part of our life. I think something as simple as showing her and Jake writing his convention speech together could've gone a long way towards making her feel less like a passenger in his journey and more like a participant.

I can only hope she'll find more narrative relevance in future updates. As it is right now, she feels rather redundant as a character. Like, if you turn her down early and she ghosts you, she just straight up disappears from almost every scene and it makes zero impact on the story. I think that speaks volumes about her integration into the game. And, as the LI who is easiest to ignore and fastest to upset, it means everyone has less of a chance to get to know her unless they set out from the start with intent to woo her.
 

Michkooo

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Brotherman, we just went over that the real life archetype this is based on are individuals that get restraining orders filed against them. That's not "judging too harshly", that's being realistic in regards to her level of toxicity.
You will need to be more specific, what did she do that would deserve a restraining order ? Like maxthruster said

if you turn her down early and she ghosts you, she just straight up disappears from almost every scene and it makes zero impact on the story.
So if you reject her, she's just gone and leaves you alone. A crazy restraining order lady would come at your home yelling, she would call 145 times, etc.

I think she's human in that she wants a real relationship and true commitment from Jake. If we as the player don't want that it's fine she will be gone and we have plenty more LIs to choose from. But if we let her a chance she's a great partner.

Yes, she feels threatened by Jasmine (who wouldn't). Yes, she's needy. But that's understandable, she really likes Jake and she wonders if he likes her like she does. Like I said she's not perfect and Jasmine and Allison are my favorites by far, but V has her good side too.

Imagine for one second that there were boys in Jake classroom. Obvioulsy they would try to flirt with Jasmine. How would you feel ? Probably like V feels.
 

Ciaran8023

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You will need to be more specific, what did she do that would deserve a restraining order ? Like maxthruster said
Do you not realize that an individual that does their best to insert themselves between you and other people is an individual that's actively causing harm?

Reverse the roles, if the MC was a chick and Veronica was a dude that went above and beyond to try to control her every move and who she hangs out with, would you have the same viewpoint?

Michkooo said:
Imagine for one second that there were boys in Jake classroom. Obvioulsy they would try to flirt with Jasmine. How would you feel ? Probably like V feels.
If we were in a relationship, I'd fucking respect my partner and trust that she doesn't do anything. Like an actual normal, sane human being would do.
I think I'm retracing my steps back to you probably needing to look into therapy if you think that this is actual normal behaviour that isn't problematic.

There are some really good points in this and further reinforces exactly why she feels so offputting at a lot of situations.
I would also disagree a bit that it's more on the MC than her regarding the fact that she isn't closer, her being very pushy about it undoubtedly produces an opposite reaction from the MC despite us being in 'control' of him, and with her wanting nearly everything to be on her terms doesn't exactly inspire confidence in a mutual relationship.

Though as you said, she really is very redundant as a character, you could outright remove her and the story wouldn't change at all.
 
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Maviarab

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Yes, she feels threatened by Jasmine (who wouldn't)
Because she a slut who is all over the MC from the get go. People whine about V being agressive/insecure towards other women? There's a reason for that.

The red head garbage simps though let everything go..because red head = free pass for whatever. V isn't like that with every woman...just the ones she knows are trying to jump on the MC's cock. She acts like any real woman anywhere in the damn world.

She is polarising on purpose because (for the thirteenth frickin time)...making an AVN where you start in an established relationship is one of the dumbest things you can do in an AVN....so the dev has to give you a reasonably quick 'out'. For those too dim to figure it out, they been getting together for a while...now she wants more, so presses the issue. Then the dumb (and it is dumb) accident happens...so he drifts even further away.

Fuck me sideways for someone wanting something more and wanting clarification so they can move on with their life and not be messed around by a player who can't commit. Sound familiar toi some of you? Probably not....

V is fine...V is best girl...even ahead of my beloved (enough baggage to fill Sea-Tac) Maggie.
 

Ciaran8023

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Because she a slut who is all over the MC from thje get go. People whine about V being agressive towards other women? There's a reason for that.

The red head garbage simps though let everything go..because red head = free pass for whatever. V isn't like that with every woman...just the ones she knows are trying to jump on the MC's cock. She acts like any real woman anywhere in the damn world.

She is polarising on purpose because (for the thirteenth frickin time)...making an AVN where you start in an established relationship is one of the dumbest things you can do in an AVN....so the dev has to give you a reasonably quick 'out'. For those too dim to figure it out, they been getting together for a while...now she wants more, so presses the issue. Then the dumb (and it is dumb) accident happens...so he drifts even further away.

Fuck me sideways for someone wanting something more and wanting clarification so they can move on with their life and not be messed around by a player who can't commit. Sound familiar toi some of you? Probably not....

V is fine...V is best girl...even ahead of my beloved (enough baggage to fill Sea-Tac) Maggie.
Trust me, I'm one who dislikes the redhead more than Veronica, but it doesn't exactly give her the go-ahead to fuck with the MC's autonomy because she doesn't like a random chick.

Even if you like her as a character, I think you'd be hardpressed to say that how she's acting isn't wrong or causing issues.

Moreover, even though they've been fooling around for a while, it's logical to let someone who just came out of a tumultuous marriage some time to decompress and find their bearings again. Instantly diving into a serious relationship again is close to impossible for a lot of people given that everyone needs time to process things.
 

maxthruster

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Then the dumb (and it is dumb) accident happens...so he drifts even further away.
Ok so... There's a lot to unpack in your message, and I don't think I'm qualified or paid enough to do so.

May I ask, what is it about Lily's accident specifically that makes it dumb to you?
 

Maviarab

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Ok so... There's a lot to unpack in your message, and I don't think I'm qualified or paid enough to do so.

May I ask, what is it about Lily's accident specifically that makes it dumb to you?
Hah! So after pages and essays of posts tearing her apart from yourself...you have no comeback at all to anything I said? Sounds about right....

The whole entire plot....just another stupid crime/revenge/thriller wrapped up in something that came from left field. So many VN's do it and none of them need it. The battery tech storyline alone is more than enough to carry this VN.

I won't even get into the why of how fucking stupid the whole illegal street-racing part of this VN is.
 

maxthruster

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Hah! So after pages and essays of posts tearing her apart from yourself...you have no comeback at all to anything I said? Sounds about right....
No, I just think a licensed therapist might be a better option. Putting all the vitriol aside, I totally understand Veronica's frustrations with Jasmine. It's literally everything else piled on top of that which I find off-putting.

The whole entire plot....just another stupid crime/revenge/thriller wrapped up in something that came from left field. So many VN's do it and none of them need it. The battery tech storyline alone is more than enough to carry this VN.

I won't even get into the why of how fucking stupid the whole illegal street-racing part of this VN is.
So, to clarify... You want this entire game to be alternating between lab scenes and sex scenes? Cut the cars and the emotional anchor, just make batteries and lay pipe?

Suffice to say, I think we are not going to find common ground there.
 
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