- Nov 14, 2017
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- Thread starter monroe
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Well if you are going back that far you could and should consult the Ugeritic texts as well but by and large you have gotten the jist of it, Inanna is interchangeable with Ishtar, Astarte, Ashtaroth, and Aphrodite. Even Mephistopheles. All of them have a similar running theme. It's interesting with the amount of Mythology as a basis for our theory crafting, it being as tangible as tangible gets why do you think We still have in our midst naysaying flat Earthers who have scorned and ridiculed us.
- Aug 27, 2020
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Haters gotta hate my friends.
There are different sub-sets of our collective, and as long as everyone stays pretty civil, then whatever they say is fair I suppose. There is a large subset of us that like to delve into what the devs might be thinking, based on where, some of us have been digging deep into myth. We can just continue on as we have. I call them out every now and then, but we just need to try and keep things civil. Countries may fight, religions may jihad, but porn and adult game enthusiasts can all get along, if we just aren't dicks!
There are different sub-sets of our collective, and as long as everyone stays pretty civil, then whatever they say is fair I suppose. There is a large subset of us that like to delve into what the devs might be thinking, based on where, some of us have been digging deep into myth. We can just continue on as we have. I call them out every now and then, but we just need to try and keep things civil. Countries may fight, religions may jihad, but porn and adult game enthusiasts can all get along, if we just aren't dicks!
- Aug 1, 2018
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So i got a bit of theory and i haven't seen it discussed here.
We know MC got visions both of "Vision girl" and the "Creature in the cave" Both of them are ancient and are supposed to be sisters.
What i understand from both of them(Vision/cave) they have the same lineage. And don't deviate from it with let's say a different Mother or Father vice versa, So same blood line.
We all think Vision girl can influence people who are descendants of her blood line in to doing things. Like with Calisto turning MC for "lets say because he has a strong mind/body"
Now with my theory
Since MC visited that mental hospital. He got vision of The creature in the cave. And even vision girl warning him to not go that way.
What if Vision girl said to not go that way, Because they share the same bloodline. (hint: Nos invisibility)And the creature in the cave can also influence MC's mind. And some choices we made in the game can influence the outcome if we stay on the good side or go to the bad side
So now we have to go back to episode 2. Where MC meets Fabian he gets a vision of Fabian in templar clothing, We all came to the conclusion that Fabian is a templar.
In history Templars were considered to be on the good side of history. Depends on from wich side you look at it.
We can safely say that Calisto and her temple "are on the good side"(Also depends on how you look at it ) And the creature in the cave is on the bad side
Now with choices you made like Miri's soul stain and other parameters like Astrid. I think those choices you made are going to influence the outcome of the fight With either the Vision girl influencing your Mind to be on her side. Or either Getting influend by the cave creature to help her side.
Now comes the crazy part. I think Calisto dipped to much in to the darkside with her choices in life. And cannot kill the creature in the Cave. Since she would also get mind fucked by it And needed something fresh that hasn't been tainted by his choices yet
And with MC by her side and she can basically play dumb. (and Fabian Knows about it with his comment eating something dirty) While she Say's i don't believe a ancient is burried in Scotts town. While later asking MC to find it and Kill it. While doing that sets Vision girl free from her prison it also would in some way set Calisto free. To unleash the temple on to the world and get a strong foothold in the world.
And that is gonna be a story that leads in to future episodes of Rebirth
We know MC got visions both of "Vision girl" and the "Creature in the cave" Both of them are ancient and are supposed to be sisters.
What i understand from both of them(Vision/cave) they have the same lineage. And don't deviate from it with let's say a different Mother or Father vice versa, So same blood line.
We all think Vision girl can influence people who are descendants of her blood line in to doing things. Like with Calisto turning MC for "lets say because he has a strong mind/body"
Now with my theory
Since MC visited that mental hospital. He got vision of The creature in the cave. And even vision girl warning him to not go that way.
What if Vision girl said to not go that way, Because they share the same bloodline. (hint: Nos invisibility)And the creature in the cave can also influence MC's mind. And some choices we made in the game can influence the outcome if we stay on the good side or go to the bad side
So now we have to go back to episode 2. Where MC meets Fabian he gets a vision of Fabian in templar clothing, We all came to the conclusion that Fabian is a templar.
In history Templars were considered to be on the good side of history. Depends on from wich side you look at it.
We can safely say that Calisto and her temple "are on the good side"(Also depends on how you look at it ) And the creature in the cave is on the bad side
Now with choices you made like Miri's soul stain and other parameters like Astrid. I think those choices you made are going to influence the outcome of the fight With either the Vision girl influencing your Mind to be on her side. Or either Getting influend by the cave creature to help her side.
Now comes the crazy part. I think Calisto dipped to much in to the darkside with her choices in life. And cannot kill the creature in the Cave. Since she would also get mind fucked by it And needed something fresh that hasn't been tainted by his choices yet
And with MC by her side and she can basically play dumb. (and Fabian Knows about it with his comment eating something dirty) While she Say's i don't believe a ancient is burried in Scotts town. While later asking MC to find it and Kill it. While doing that sets Vision girl free from her prison it also would in some way set Calisto free. To unleash the temple on to the world and get a strong foothold in the world.
And that is gonna be a story that leads in to future episodes of Rebirth
- Aug 27, 2020
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Ok.......
Fuck......
Scratching head...........
This is some shit that is literally spinning some wheels in my gear box.
Only real comment I can make with certainty is whether we took all the powers possible, and get the dagger or not, we are not going to win this first fight in the cave, and Laurie is going to be killed. If folks did the right thing, she becomes Sharon's unconscious childe, and is saved that way.
So I don't think we can free Calisto if that is what is going on........ but....... I am really needing to think on this.
Beyond that.. Your theory is going to have me going line by line and frame by frame tonight.
I love it.
Thank you, and I will hopefully have some meaningful contribution to this later tonight or tomorrow.
Peace
Here's my unofficial android port of Rebirth Ep4 Up3 with KoGa3 Walkthrough/cheat/game settings
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- Jan 26, 2021
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its to be considered! so if Calisto used a sacred vial of blood that was a mix of both godesses it would give the MC the right to choose? or perhaps the vial had Enki blood... you know the father of the twin goddesses... what if the MC is the rebirth of Ninazu the son of irkalla herself!
i mean the name of the novel is Rebirth and somehow that entire myth exists in a few other pantheons where the hero goes to the underground and winter comes and only when the hero returns to the surface does spring and summer return!
Here is another newfound revelation in regard of this potential twist, You are going up against entities that Influence minds.
Could the outcome of the fights come down to how much you fought against Callisto's mental gymnastics on you.
whether you fought her mental attempts of control or not ( to steel your mind in essence ).
This too may be something to chew on as well.
I've been enjoying this story but just have a few minor critiques.
1. Pacing. Many updates feature tedious things like Sharon doing paperwork or talking to Skalds that fight about where to store the wine while providing no real plot advancement. Part of that is, of course, because the game isn't complete so we aren't sure what all might be relevant later. I can understand Sharon might have a lot of paperwork to do being a new regional leader, that could be one sentence of dialogue rather than take up a whole scene.
2. MC motivation. Why is the MC antagonizing Cindy? For what possible reason is it smart to push the buttons of a tiny juggernaut that could give you access to your maker and only real source of knowledge about what you are? She didn't do anything, she didn't try to kill your mother, didn't snap Andrew's neck, didn't set you up to be turned into a vampire in the first place ripping you from your normal life. She was a little bit rude, but not half as bad as Marcius and yet we get several updates where we kick that hornets nest for no apparent reason.
On that same note why doesn't MC seem concerned with any big questions for Calisto? "Every time I drink blood some woman keeps talking to me, is she real? Do you know her? Do I have a vampire brain tumor and I'm just imagining her?"
Also Calisto starts the game suicidal, a few updates in a row where we are trying to get her on our good side and get closer to her, how do you not address the motivating factor (as far as we know it) in your big life change? Calisto wanted to die and MC is her distraction to try and stay this side of suicidal. Why doesn't MC ask about her and if she is any better or if there is anything he can do for her? Why doesn't she bring it up herself?
Overall though, I've very much been enjoying the story and reading this thread.
1. Pacing. Many updates feature tedious things like Sharon doing paperwork or talking to Skalds that fight about where to store the wine while providing no real plot advancement. Part of that is, of course, because the game isn't complete so we aren't sure what all might be relevant later. I can understand Sharon might have a lot of paperwork to do being a new regional leader, that could be one sentence of dialogue rather than take up a whole scene.
2. MC motivation. Why is the MC antagonizing Cindy? For what possible reason is it smart to push the buttons of a tiny juggernaut that could give you access to your maker and only real source of knowledge about what you are? She didn't do anything, she didn't try to kill your mother, didn't snap Andrew's neck, didn't set you up to be turned into a vampire in the first place ripping you from your normal life. She was a little bit rude, but not half as bad as Marcius and yet we get several updates where we kick that hornets nest for no apparent reason.
On that same note why doesn't MC seem concerned with any big questions for Calisto? "Every time I drink blood some woman keeps talking to me, is she real? Do you know her? Do I have a vampire brain tumor and I'm just imagining her?"
Also Calisto starts the game suicidal, a few updates in a row where we are trying to get her on our good side and get closer to her, how do you not address the motivating factor (as far as we know it) in your big life change? Calisto wanted to die and MC is her distraction to try and stay this side of suicidal. Why doesn't MC ask about her and if she is any better or if there is anything he can do for her? Why doesn't she bring it up herself?
Overall though, I've very much been enjoying the story and reading this thread.
Hi Warscared, in my limited understand, Irkalla is one of the names of the Mesopotamian underworld that was ruled by the goddess Ereshkigal. Ninazu - the lord of healing - has been associated with her as either her son or her husband - but his actual lineage and origin is both muddy and confusing involving multiple disparate threads. So I don't see how Irkalla - the underworld is a place - can has any offspring that could be reborn ...
- Aug 1, 2018
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Dude you got me doing homework on Sumerian and Mesopotamian Culture and Pantheons
I don't think MC is a rebirth of Ninazu or anything from that side of the underworld pantheon.
I would rather think Likesblondes would keep the char creation pretty balanced. (ying and yang 50/50)
If he would do that the balance would be shifted pretty big.
The blood vials we can't be sure for 100% We don't know what kind of artifacts the temple has. Could be anything, Even something from a different god
While if true, A mix of both bloods would definitely give the MC a choice to pick what side he is on
So i don't think MC would be made with Enki's blood that is way to powerful. Since it would give the MC the power over both Inanna and Ereshkigal and everything in between them and Calisto
However i do think you are right with the rebirth path But i don't think we gonna see something along the lines of what you said. but create our own patheon
From let's say Inanna forward or Ereshkigal
- Jan 26, 2021
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technically if from Enki the MC would be the same generation but lack the 15.000 years experience at being a young vampire!
although i suspect the 3rd generation was kind of the apex like they where stronger then the 1st and the 2nd but then they fucked up hit a bottleneck and started a devolving situation to curb their own power!
something like a Lamarquian approach where if the new childe would have the potential to be stronger then the previous generation as it had happened up to that point that child would be diablirized... thats why the 3rd generation hit the status of gods by diabliring their own children who showed promise and not so much for the strength of blood!
since there was no way up the newer generations started to be weaker then their predecessors and thus combined with my anthropological explanation a few posts back on why the 3rd to 4th and 5th generation took so long!
but i am running on fumes here! i want to appear smart but even i must admit my knowledge of Sumerian and Mesopotamian pantheons is surely lacking! Enki i know because he was the god of wisdom and thus father to most gods including in some interpretations to Jehovah the god of smiting!
so what you are saying is that me without ever reading VTM got it right and there where several generations that got taken out successfully time and time again due to either environmental limitations (farming was still rudimentary and therefore proper places and cities where very limited thus ecological niches for vampires to evolve)!
and that the 2nd and 3rd generations reached the status of gods not by virtue of blood alone but by consuming their children brothers and sisters and even parents?
this begs the question if the stronger vampires are not all artificial and the youngest generations are actually more akin to the real vampires as the blood boost of the older generations that diablirized 200 vampires each disappear? like a return to base power levels ... perhaps the original vampires where as strong as a 20th generation? so stronger then humans but not by much?
i wonder if their power level and their level of humanity are connected to their sun resistance? if its back to a base power level perhaps the 18th generation might be more resistant to the sun because vampires had to be able to exist before there where city´s and there are not so many caves available so perhaps an original human hybrid who was weaker in the sun but not too weak existed?
i understand the lore but such powerfull creatures could not have existed under the power its attributed to them nowadays!
so maybe vampires where "elite" humans infected with a bat virus that made them stronger... fuck we can even mix that with the mega fauna extinction as a kind of technology that made them sterile!
and depending on how historically we want to be... perhaps match the fall of the temples/palaces civilization with the bronze age colapse that created a human shortage thus making all the strongest to fight among themselves and left them scared and in need to go into torpor!
what ya think D3xzalias and andrew david irving
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- Aug 1, 2018
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I think you hit the nail on the head with 3rd generation and powers. And with the things 3rd gen did basically you get the inbreeding effect with animals. 1 time it goes good 2nd time it goes ok 3rd time its mehh and with the 4th time you get depreciating results.
And in the end they started with their own demise.
Same here i know a bit of basic like with some of the gods from previous Arigon 6 page essay's. So i did some digging and reading up. But that is were it ends.
What i know of Enki he was basically the god of everything So in my thinking if you are the god of everything including Magic healing and ressurection you are a bit OP.
An Interesting theory there but I need to clarify things in regard to Jehovah. That name was created by biblical scholars to bastardize the tetragramiton ( YHWH ) The letter J was not created until the 1500's just in time for the King James bible. You mean Yahweh, which by the way is not found in any book of the Gods Be it Ugaritic, Greek, Sumerian, or any other Pantheon. So those interpretations are most dubious.
- Aug 27, 2020
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Let's reset our thinking on something real quick. I am posting this quickly as I am expecting the update workload shortly.
Generational limits.
Enki, Tiamat, Inanna, Ereshkigal, and most of the other 10,000 Sumerian Deities are all greater in power than a Caine would be, or at a minimum, would be equal to him and his childer and grandchilder. (the really spoogy deities being 3rd gen in VtM parlance.) So what we have are Gen 0s, who the fuck knows what they can do? Gen 1s Caine-like... and maybe Gen 2... deities. There might even be a -1 or -2 on that chart. Reason I say this is I am pretty solid on the Sumerian lineages (at least for our group of them for this novel). I am equally confident in the Greek contributions..... VtM I am frankly a master at....
We can not say for certain "Power Levels" of the deities involved. For instance, being the "god of everything" Enki is still exceeded by some of his children in myth. Similarly the Titans were defeated by their children in both Greek and Norse mythology. So..... Enki is a progenitor, but does that make him more powerful in every way? Not sure.....
The guys are definitely throwing some curves and some twists in their own game map, and our theories bounce from those, so I think by the end, we will have something that definitely drew from the myth, but is twisted to fit their narrative.
That said, I think any single "Temple" (and there are certainly more than a few in the world.... the Middle East must have a shit ton!!!) would be unlikely to have artifacts that come from several bloodlines. I think they would tend to follow the ways of ancient temples and be dedicated to one deity. (in general).
Anyhow, I will update you guys if I get the update.
Peace
Generational limits.
Enki, Tiamat, Inanna, Ereshkigal, and most of the other 10,000 Sumerian Deities are all greater in power than a Caine would be, or at a minimum, would be equal to him and his childer and grandchilder. (the really spoogy deities being 3rd gen in VtM parlance.) So what we have are Gen 0s, who the fuck knows what they can do? Gen 1s Caine-like... and maybe Gen 2... deities. There might even be a -1 or -2 on that chart. Reason I say this is I am pretty solid on the Sumerian lineages (at least for our group of them for this novel). I am equally confident in the Greek contributions..... VtM I am frankly a master at....
We can not say for certain "Power Levels" of the deities involved. For instance, being the "god of everything" Enki is still exceeded by some of his children in myth. Similarly the Titans were defeated by their children in both Greek and Norse mythology. So..... Enki is a progenitor, but does that make him more powerful in every way? Not sure.....
The guys are definitely throwing some curves and some twists in their own game map, and our theories bounce from those, so I think by the end, we will have something that definitely drew from the myth, but is twisted to fit their narrative.
That said, I think any single "Temple" (and there are certainly more than a few in the world.... the Middle East must have a shit ton!!!) would be unlikely to have artifacts that come from several bloodlines. I think they would tend to follow the ways of ancient temples and be dedicated to one deity. (in general).
Anyhow, I will update you guys if I get the update.
Peace
- Aug 27, 2020
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Planned release is on for Sunday barring mishaps.
I will have my "insertion" to the story box shortly.
Just FYI for you Filthy Animals
Peace
I will have my "insertion" to the story box shortly.
Just FYI for you Filthy Animals
Peace
- Aug 27, 2020
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Quick note number who knows?!
Common wisdom states there were 3 Second Generation who were destroyed by the children of the Second Generation: Enoch (Enki-lol) Zillah, Irad.... THIS Begs the question... what/who/when/how.... were they destroyed?
There is evidence that Absimilard, Haqim, and Salout could have diablerized their way to second generation.
The Erciyas Fragments allude to SEVEN second generation vampires, only two of which are mentioned above by the same name, albeit slightly different spelling Zyllah, and Enoch with Jubal being likely for Irad or possibly Haqim.
The Baali claim there were 10 second generation.
The Ravnos and Gangrel claim that Ennoi and Ravena were either lovers or siblings or both and were embraced, which explains the Gangrel Ravnos closeness and rivalry. (of the second generation, as Ravena was the most beloved, but that title also claimed by Zillah, could they be the same????)
There are heretical texts that place Lillith the Black Mother with Caine in power, or even over his power.......
All of this means nothing, but it just points to the fact that a well thought out family tree of vampires is still a mess in VtM.
Throw our devs in there, with tossing all this out, and we have an interesting conundrum..
For the record, the Second Generation were not weaker than the Antediluvians, they were ganged up on by demigod like 3rd generation vampires, and general revolt in those dark times.
Edit-
So just to be clear, Haqim is pretty assuredly 2nd generation in modern nights. Abisimilard as well. All the Niktuku are believed to be childer of him from his earlier days, so could be 3rd or 4th generation. Most likely there is a branch out there of childer of Absimilard which are not cursed, and his curse could well have come from his destruction of one of the second generation. All modern day Nosferatu are descended from Baba Yaga. Soooooooo
The other Niktuku are pretty monstrous as well, but there are only a couple detailed and they are in some novels.
Salout being a second generation makes sense on so many levels... In his early days he was an angry powerful being. His antitribu are a reflection of this. His main line were not founded for some time as they were after he sought penance,,,,,,,,,, but what act would cause him such soul agony as to make a complete shift. Add to this the complete freaking crazy shit happening to Tremere from that Diablerie.
side note again- NO WAY the Second Inquisition could take out Vienna with all the Inner Council in it... If you want a detailed reason why, as well as why most of the fifth edition shit is just that PM me and I will see about posting some stuff on the non game Vampire Lore thread or possibly creating a new one.
Ok enough of that shite!
Peace
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- Aug 27, 2020
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Ok, so canonically the 14th generation are almost too weak to procreate, and the 15th generation are essentially dead ghouls.
Canonically all the childer below the 4th generation were created as food for the 3rd generation, as all had lost the ability to derive sustenance from human and animal blood, so they were in effect creating their own food source. It is self sustaining as long as you continue to create childer.
Power wise, the Tremere, and to a lesser extent the Assamites and Tzimisce have blood sorcery which allows them tremendous power which exceeds the normal vampire boundaries. The Tremere can even artificially lower their generation for a time using inferior blood.
The main benefit to consumption of descendants is food, with the possibility of learning disciplines *powers, that the elder did not yet possess. The blood does not raise them up in the power level by itself, except to fully empower their blood pools, which is how they power most of their disciplines.
The bulk of what you are saying is "as a concept" good. The function within the actual game framework does not work that way exactly (VtM is the game I am referring to here)
Now, in Rebirth, there is certainly possibilities unexplored here. I frankly do not know. This combined with theories by fellow maniacs DA22 and D3xzalias are definitely thought provoking.
I have yet to get script. Given the time difference, I will get it at about 5am EST.
Peace
- Sep 16, 2021
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- Aug 27, 2020
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Red Bold Comments Below
Sharon has both an attraction power, (unexpressed in game, but let's call it Presence) which brings her potential victims to her from across the room, and she has her "Eyes" Let's call that Domination.
Domination allows her to Influence, and Control minds, rewrite memories, and in essence make people her slaves until she thralls them properly.
.
The MC has the power of Whispers, which is arguably much more powerful. Without eye contact, it allows one to place whatever thought process in motion you desire..Added to this, while not expressed in the game as a separate power, he shares the Presence ability to attract attention, and while he has yet to have Zephir's telepathic power, he is able to read what the target of his Whisper is thinking and thus react accordingly. Super powerful ability, and Slaving folks is not even an afterthought.
.
What the Nos seem to have suffered is something a bit more and a bit less. They are slaves. They lack much in the way of Free Will. The MC felt dread when going down in the cave. So did Ivy. Andrew and Markus did not. The reason could be very interesting, such as what if Andrew's blood source traces it's lineage back to Ereshkigal as do the Nos???? That might give the immunity to the dread and allow them to come closer for the more savage enslavement. We are going to see shortly.....
,
.
Expand and Read Inside the next quote for responses in red bold.
Very valid point. I want to draw a line of sorts here, as I think it is important.
Sharon has both an attraction power, (unexpressed in game, but let's call it Presence) which brings her potential victims to her from across the room, and she has her "Eyes" Let's call that Domination.
Domination allows her to Influence, and Control minds, rewrite memories, and in essence make people her slaves until she thralls them properly.
.
The MC has the power of Whispers, which is arguably much more powerful. Without eye contact, it allows one to place whatever thought process in motion you desire..Added to this, while not expressed in the game as a separate power, he shares the Presence ability to attract attention, and while he has yet to have Zephir's telepathic power, he is able to read what the target of his Whisper is thinking and thus react accordingly. Super powerful ability, and Slaving folks is not even an afterthought.
.
What the Nos seem to have suffered is something a bit more and a bit less. They are slaves. They lack much in the way of Free Will. The MC felt dread when going down in the cave. So did Ivy. Andrew and Markus did not. The reason could be very interesting, such as what if Andrew's blood source traces it's lineage back to Ereshkigal as do the Nos???? That might give the immunity to the dread and allow them to come closer for the more savage enslavement. We are going to see shortly.....
,
.
Expand and Read Inside the next quote for responses in red bold.
Peace