qp39dmzxfg243

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Nov 23, 2017
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There was a bug though, in the original release it only showed this stuff if you told Virgil the feral was a Nos, while clearly Markus is only supposed to confide in the MC if you didn't. The hotfix corrects this bug.
Oh I see I played the base version and I didn't tell Vergil about the feral being a nos so I guess that's why I missed it.

This is where Arigon gets his theory that the feral at the abandoned hospital is the deranged Ileana, because Ileana used to hang out near the big bad. Personally I think that's a giant leap, and there's no evidence in game yet that the feral was Ileana.
Yeah okay I can see that. It is a bit of a leap tbh but I guess with conservation of detail in games like these I could go either way on it.

The thing with trying to lay out a generation vs timeline is not a bad attempt to generalize things, though of course it will be wildly inaccurate in a lot of cases, as any generalization would be. Most of the vampires in VtM that are running around in the modern nights are less than 500 years old. They are 8th generation or higher. The weak blooded are the most recent. That does not mean that 14k years ago there were not 8th generation vampires, they just didn't survive or they gobbled their way up the food chain.
Okay thanks for the detailed post, let me first respond to this. What you say here could account for the varied time scale between generations because it took that long for the new vampires to successfully embrace their own children without being wiped out.

So there could be multiple "8th generations" where it's wiped out a bunch until it's successfully established and you go to the 9th generation being wiped out a bunch. This is still highly unusual and to me strains credibility but it's a lot better than random time differences in generations for no reason.

Markus' sire and whomever came before her watched over Ereshkigal. (Markus and his sire are much much much less powerful than Calisto, I postulate that his sire inherited the job from a series of more ancient vampires who grew bored or careless or both, or were similarly mistreated by Ereshkigal as her Nos bunker brood was)
I feel like this is probably the weakest part of your theory as Markus doesn't seem to know he has this job or really anything about this super elder vampire. His sire apparently didn't know anything either. I guess there could have been an organization to take care of Ereshkigal at one point but there doesn't seem to be any evidence in game for this at all.

If Inanna was able to take action to ensure that she is well served by Calisto shouldn't Ereshkigal have done the same to ensure that she had good servants of Calisto's level? Even if let's say she was asleep and so just got unlucky when her servants deserted but Inanna's didn't wouldn't her first step have been to build her power base by not driving those nos to insanity? Or is she just malevolent and can't help herself?

Reading through this it feels like Inanna has the definite upper hand on Ereshkigal and they're not quite equals.
 

Arigon

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Oh I see I played the base version and I didn't tell Vergil about the feral being a nos so I guess that's why I missed it.



Yeah okay I can see that. It is a bit of a leap tbh but I guess with conservation of detail in games like these I could go either way on it.



Okay thanks for the detailed post, let me first respond to this. What you say here could account for the varied time scale between generations because it took that long for the new vampires to successfully embrace their own children without being wiped out.

So there could be multiple "8th generations" where it's wiped out a bunch until it's successfully established and you go to the 9th generation being wiped out a bunch. This is still highly unusual and to me strains credibility but it's a lot better than random time differences in generations for no reason.



I feel like this is probably the weakest part of your theory as Markus doesn't seem to know he has this job or really anything about this super elder vampire. His sire apparently didn't know anything either. I guess there could have been an organization to take care of Ereshkigal at one point but there doesn't seem to be any evidence in game for this at all.

If Inanna was able to take action to ensure that she is well served by Calisto shouldn't Ereshkigal have done the same to ensure that she had good servants of Calisto's level? Even if let's say she was asleep and so just got unlucky when her servants deserted but Inanna's didn't wouldn't her first step have been to build her power base by not driving those nos to insanity? Or is she just malevolent and can't help herself?

Reading through this it feels like Inanna has the definite upper hand on Ereshkigal and they're not quite equals.

yes Ereshkigal's equivalent of a Temple seems to be a weaker link. I am confident that the feral Nos was Markus' sire. I also think that the Nos maintained a small underground bunker that was used as their stronghold for many many years. This stronghold was located by a Nos perhaps a thousand years before or more, and then they successively died off as their bloodline mistress used them as bloodbags.

Ereshkigal killed Inanna, but was not more powerful than her in legend. Before Inanna could appear before Ereshkigal, to pay her respects on the recent death of Ereshkigal's husband, she had to pass through 7 gates. At each gate, one of her artifacts/jewels/armor/whatever were removed, and when she appeared before Ereshkigal she was murdered, placed on a hook on the wall of Ereshkigal's underworld palace. She was bled out and naked, thus fitting the Vision Girl description pretty well.

We don't know a lot yet about the vampire gods. Inanna is one of them though, and she is the Vision Girl. Her sister is the dark mistress of the underworld. While I can not provide complete proof of this yet, I am working on it :D

Regarding the insane Nos. No vampire is infallible in this game, that is from the devs. Ereshkigal is starving for blood, and used her thralled Nos to feed and then bring their blood back to her for her to feed. I think this need outweighed her other concerns because she desperately wants to rise BEFORE Inanna does... because Inanna is going to be looking for some payback I think.

Peace!
 

yltohawk

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Mar 19, 2019
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Yeah. Thanks but no thanks. I'm here to comment on and enjoy this VN. Unless the writers decide to direct us at outside sources to which this world they've created adhere, I'm really not interested in endless speculation about how this story might fit with various vampire mythologies, novels, games, or game systems. You're not trying to figure out the plot lines presented here. You're trying to reverse engineer the structure and fabric that the writers developed to create this VN. Plot lines are analyzed based on the content and plot presented in the writing, no speculating about which parts of other writing they may have based their writing on.

Information not presented in this VN is uninteresting. I understand the drive of various commenters here to fit this VN's structure of vampire capabilities and social structure into other contexts, but I feel free to comment only based on the content presented here and will continue to so do.
Now that your reasoning is duly noted I can appreciate where you are coming from, I do have an issue with that though, Many of Us enjoy the theory crafting that is done on this thread... It is unique to F95 and It is something I have come to enjoy and I want to continue this venue. Are we to expect now that you will interject you view into the mix with the intent to disrupt what is arguably a very productive atmosphere IMO as I am sure many will agree. So can we agree to try to find common ground. This thread should be big enough for all of us. If you are not interested I understand but We will continue with what we have done in the past. And if you truly are not interested in our reverse engineering then ignore us please.
 
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Arigon

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Now that your reasoning is duly noted I can appreciate where you are coming from, I do have an issue with that though, Many of Us enjoy the theory crafting that is done on this thread... It is unique to F95 and It is something I have come to enjoy and I want to continue this venue. Are we to expect now that you will interject you view into the mix with the intent to disrupt what is arguably a very productive atmosphere IMO as I am sure many will agree. So can we agree to try to find common ground. This thread should be big enough for all of us. If you are not interested I understand but We will continue with what we have done in the past. And if you truly are not interested in our reverse engineering then ignore us please.
he will post disruptive posts, he won't listen to your request, and he has been doing it for a while now.
 
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qp39dmzxfg243

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Nov 23, 2017
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Regarding the insane Nos. No vampire is infallible in this game, that is from the devs. Ereshkigal is starving for blood, and used her thralled Nos to feed and then bring their blood back to her for her to feed. I think this need outweighed her other concerns because she desperately wants to rise BEFORE Inanna does... because Inanna is going to be looking for some payback I think.
Maybe but it's odd that for beings that are sleeping for centuries it just so happens that they're waking up at the exact same time. You'd think it'd be off by decades not months. I guess that's just for dramatic license.

yes Ereshkigal's equivalent of a Temple seems to be a weaker link. I am confident that the feral Nos was Markus' sire. I also think that the Nos maintained a small underground bunker that was used as their stronghold for many many years. This stronghold was located by a Nos perhaps a thousand years before or more, and then they successively died off as their bloodline mistress used them as bloodbags.
Yeah the problem is there's basically no evidence for this at all in the storyline. I guess since the temple seems to be not well known such an organization could have existed and been destroyed/abandoned while being unknown but it definitely seems like the weak link.
 
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DA22

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Jan 10, 2018
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Maybe but it's odd that for beings that are sleeping for centuries it just so happens that they're waking up at the exact same time. You'd think it'd be off by decades not months. I guess that's just for dramatic license.



Yeah the problem is there's basically no evidence for this at all in the storyline. I guess since the temple seems to be not well known such an organization could have existed and been destroyed/abandoned while being unknown but it definitely seems like the weak link.
Yeah it may be a weak link or it might be explained soonish, devs have held a lot close to their chest and Arigon has only been able to decipher some since he and others recognized some of the myths and played with those to see what devs might have been doing and then got some interesting tidbits from the devs.

I have myself put forward some outlandish theories or ways dev may go, especially since they do not feel fully bound to those myths from my perspective. One of the more interesting things will be indeed the relation between I and E, fight to the death or love to hate each other and whether there is another very old one playing a game from the background for his/her purposes with the two sisters?

This might also have quite a big impact on their bloodlines as mutually supportive or mortal enemies, which could have a big impact on whom they have left at this time. Have Hera and other descendants of I successfully culled E's lines of especially stronger childer and is that is why E is left almost alone, besides her bad habit of feeding on her guardians, but also I seems to have just C possibly? It could be even more interesting if those bloodlines are mixed (I once did have an outlandish theory on that :p) where C is on I's side and Arcas is on that of E. One reason he has hunted her in past and still does, that could feed into Arigons ideas as well and if true could make some loyalties very fluid in rest of game with both sisters getting closer to rising and increasing their pull.

Also what is the true nature and goal of Temple, to watch and help I raise as non impactful as possible or to keep both asleep or does it serve I, both sisters or even Tiamat if last is part of the game? To be honest though both sisters have likely incredible pull and influence on other vamps, well not many of the elder ones that have lived under them might want to see them back and rising with all that would entail except for their childer and possibly even those might have decided to work together to let sleeping dogs lie. Also leading to VG (or eve both sisters) needing a new unware tool to help her/them rise. Last if they either do work together or have some pact between them where they want to duke it out together again and both work to that goal.

Interest of I in MC can also go a few ways. VG is also called the mother if remember right in some code (actually that would be also Tiamat's role in myth :p), so there might be something there. It can have to do with MC's role that either will decide who wins based on what side he takes cause of whom he brings along (C most likely and force of temple) or he will be a bridge between parties somehow. Possibly though, like I said before if we are not somewhere after the end of the I myths but somewhere in the middle, it will be MC's role to descend into the Underworld and free someone. Now if last is true it will be interesting how devs see that, since until now no portals to other dimensions where those old vampires have own realms have been mentioned. This fight they are going to has a great option to setup such a need for MC, just it might not be physical but mental especially since Arigon based upon his spoiler might be right (grats on that one) we will see SharonsavesLaurie play out finally.

We are getting in an interesting phase of the game, where some of those questions where the game will go, whom is who and what is what and how close they have stayed to the myths and what version they used will be answered and options of where devs can take it will be cut down based upon what will happen. Though devs can always throw us a plot twist like Trading Places at the end instead of the Big Battle. :p

Arigon, I heard a rumor that one reason Mc will not go Bearish is due to not finding good renders of bears. If that is true they might want to take a look at Light of my Life. It has some pretty good bear renders and pretty sure that dev would not mind sharing where he got them. :p
 
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D3xzalias

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Aug 1, 2018
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Hmmm well the generation timing of vampires doesn't make a whole lot of sense, what did the 5th generation somehow just decide not to embrace anybody for 700 years?
Ooh but she had children during that time. But there were some hostile times, In between then and now and most of her children got killed, Drained dry. And i think its in episode 2 Were Fabian said: Wow we thought she never breed again. Hinting at some unfortunate events that happened to her previous children
 
Mar 28, 2018
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I could be reading things wrong atm; like many I thought that Calisto is the MC's sire. However, I have a small nagging doubt that Inanna may have had a direct in the process, as in Ch 3 the MC remember that after being drained by Calisto in the pool VG has contact with him. The rational being that Inanna wants the strongest champion that she can muster to face her sister Ereshkigal, because anything less will be toast.
Edit: in addition, if Calisto is already powerful enough to face Ereshkigal, then why bother with turning the MC?

1650110041114.png

1650110054995.png

...

1650110074983.png
 
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Dónaill

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Jan 25, 2022
34
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Let's be honest though. They expected both the MC and Laurie to be at the pool. Nobody could have known that Laurie would be absent. So the idea that the MC is the chosen one, that the situation was somehow engineered so that the choice would inevitably fall on him seems unlikely. Either he was put in this situation by chance or it was meant to involve both of them.

Personally I think it happened by chance and whatever grabbed Inannas attention happened during the turning, when she appeared for the first time. It seems to have something to do with his inner beast, since Calisto was quite overwhelmed for a second when they became intimate and when he kinda lost touch with his rational self for a bit there. It was actually quite frightening to see her panic like that. I mean, she has literally seen everything there is to see, what could possible confuse her like that. Trauma? Feelings? A surge of power? I don't know. But I suspect it's the same that Inanna saw when he turned and why she started to communicate with him.
 
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UncleFredo

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Aug 29, 2020
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he will post disruptive posts, he won't listen to your request, and he has been doing it for a while now.
I sincerely regret you find my posts disruptive. While I certainly had past issues with the pacing of this VN, I publicly recanted that position sometime ago in this thread.

It's my, perhaps incorrect, impression that you work on this VN. You've provided clarifications to some of the speculation here. However to understand the clarification one must already understand the references to systems outside the VN itself. Rather than scattering bits of information about the actual structure and history that is the framework for the vampiric world on which the developers have based this game, why not provide a synopsis that calls out the important facets?

Not all of us who are unfamiliar with VtM and whichever other vampire stories may have influenced the writers have the time to wade through hundreds if not thousands of comments trying to sort out meaningful information from speculation.

I took issue with the notion that people who want to comment in this thread should only do so after reading through other reference material. Not to ascribe any view to you, if you think that it's unreasonable for discussions about the VN to focus on the information that is available within the VN, you are obviously entitled to your opinion. However, it raises the question if this thread is to discuss the VN or indulge in comparative analysis of fragments of vampire lore.

In any event, I have no desire to be disruptive, and will comment on this no further. If you're willing, I'm happy to let sleeping dogs sleep
 

Dónaill

Newbie
Jan 25, 2022
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How does this prove your point? He is saying exactly what I believe to be true, that MC being there on his own was unexpected and that Liam believed that Laurie would be there as well. He just didn't care that much in the end, or pretended not to care, doesn't matter. (It's interesting that Liam follows MC AND Laurie later when MCs mother tags along for a visit). My impression is that at that point no engineering was taking place. Calisto said later that she believed MC wouldn't make it longer than a few days (or something along these lines) and I believe that's honest. And when they talked at the pool I got a really casual vibe, like Calisto was kinda relieved to meet such an oblivious being and enjoy his ignorance, you know what I mean? That entire scene feels very honest and pure. She behaves very differently later when MC becomes part of the "game" and when she regards him as an actual pawn to play. At the pool it felt more like she slipped for a brief moment, because MC reminded her of something long lost, her humanity so to say. But that's probably not true, it's just what I felt when the scene played out and what led me to believe that it wasn't all just a scheme to create a champion.

I admit, it doesn't really explain why she chose MC after such a long time where she would not choose a childe at all. That is a mystery still, but I don't think that's enough evidence to suggest there was a plan in motion. At least not a grand plan, like creating a champion. Not that early in the novel, I don't think. That being said my theory is not better than yours. Just sharing my thoughts on it.
 
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Mar 28, 2018
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Hi Dónaill, I believe that the story has a plot that existed before the MC even met Liam, a plot devised and executed by VG using her bloodline powers to control events - Calisto,..., etc. My comment above was made when we have read up to Ch. 4, not the beginning, at which point we do have some perspective of the plot. Fiction books tend to reveal the plot slowly in stages so that the reader can gain a better view of events and relationships, it would be poor indeed if the plot was laid bare at the beginning. In fact, Laurie has been a bit player 'almost disposable comedy side kick' throughout the story - and she is likely to die in the next update - so I don't believe your assertion that is was somehow the 'MC AND Laurie', nope don't buy it.
 
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qp39dmzxfg243

Newbie
Nov 23, 2017
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Ooh but she had children during that time. But there were some hostile times, In between then and now and most of her children got killed, Drained dry. And i think its in episode 2 Were Fabian said: Wow we thought she never breed again. Hinting at some unfortunate events that happened to her previous children
I'm not referring to Calista in specific but rather the odd timing of vampire generations in general. Even for immortals generations should be a similar number of years apart as newly created vampires grow and create their own vampires. It doesn't really make sense to me that you have some generations taking much longer than others.

The answer is apparently that they were difficult times and that all the newly created vampires got wiped out which is I guess possible but would require a concerted effort from an organized group dedicated to wiping out a whole generation for seemingly no reason? Further it's like the perfect genocide where you kill absolutely every last person in the generation, extremely difficult to pull off because inevitably somebody somewhere survives.

Maybe I'm bringing too much real life into idk.
 
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Mar 28, 2018
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I am sure that others will correct me if I am wrong. I seem to recall that there were supposed to be wars between the elder and newer generations which caused the demise of many of the elder generations and also huge numbers of mid-generations (that tended to rebel to try and take the power from the elders), which may be why there are apparent inconsistencies in the numbers involved in each generation and also why many elders (like Calisto) tend to remain hidden by and large.
 
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D3xzalias

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Aug 1, 2018
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I'm not referring to Calista in specific but rather the odd timing of vampire generations in general. Even for immortals generations should be a similar number of years apart as newly created vampires grow and create their own vampires. It doesn't really make sense to me that you have some generations taking much longer than others.



Maybe I'm bringing too much real life into idk.
Most of the elder vampires were more or less exterminated by either their offsping or other vampire factions.
The few that survived that purge went in to torpor and will awaken during better times. (but this is more to VTM lore, And according to VTM there are like 250 methuselah but most of them are dead/torpor) So what we are basically saying is Most of the True elder Vampires are either dead or in torpor. And that's why there is such a huge discrepancy in the time line

And if a True elder vamp creates a child it's more or less a death sentence for that child. Since every vamp from the east coast to west coast wants to drain him dry. That's why the newer gens are more common then elder vamps. Since noone want to kill a vamp of the same gen. Since that if you are caught doing it it's an automatic death sentence for said vamp.

This is why Fabian in episode 2 say's this (because they don't survive they are basically hunted down)

. Fabian.png

Hope this helps
 
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Meushi

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Aug 4, 2017
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It's my, perhaps incorrect, impression that you work on this VN. You've provided clarifications to some of the speculation here. However to understand the clarification one must already understand the references to systems outside the VN itself. Rather than scattering bits of information about the actual structure and history that is the framework for the vampiric world on which the developers have based this game, why not provide a synopsis that calls out the important facets?
Arigon does proof reading for the devs, English isn't their first language & they certainly benefit from his help. Based on Arigon's comments the devs haven't revealed the details of the story to him much beyond that. Arigon knows what's coming in the next episode days before us, but little of what's coming in future episodes, or the specific details of the devs world building so isn't well placed to provide the information you're asking for (it would to a large extent still be speculative).

Much of what Arigon & other VTM fans post is speculation based on sources outside the game. Some of it may be applicable to the game, but equally much of it likely has nothing to do with it. For example, neither the game or the devs have said anything about Ereshkigal afaik, so any & all discussion about that character is largely moot at this stage.

Part of the problem is speculation is often stated as conclusions & adopted by other posters, which muddies the waters a bit regarding what's actually happening in the game vs imaginings about what could be happening. Which is why new converts to the game are sometimes confused about what's going on, when there are pages of discussion of things which aren't in the game or known to be related to it.

Theory crafting is all well and good, as long as it's made obvious that's what it is. Arigon posts a lot of theories, some turn out to be on the mark, others not so much. Given his propensity to bet body parts on his theories, I imagine he looks a bit like the Black Knight by now.

black_knight.jpg
 

Arigon

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Aug 27, 2020
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Arigon does proof reading for the devs, English isn't their first language & they certainly benefit from his help. Based on Arigon's comments the devs haven't revealed the details of the story to him much beyond that. Arigon knows what's coming in the next episode days before us, but little of what's coming in future episodes, or the specific details of the devs world building so isn't well placed to provide the information you're asking for (it would to a large extent still be speculative).

Much of what Arigon & other VTM fans post is speculation based on sources outside the game. Some of it may be applicable to the game, but equally much of it likely has nothing to do with it. For example, neither the game or the devs have said anything about Ereshkigal afaik, so any & all discussion about that character is largely moot at this stage.

Part of the problem is speculation is often stated as conclusions & adopted by other posters, which muddies the waters a bit regarding what's actually happening in the game vs imaginings about what could be happening. Which is why new converts to the game are sometimes confused about what's going on, when there are pages of discussion of things which aren't in the game or known to be related to it.

Theory crafting is all well and good, as long as it's made obvious that's what it is. Arigon posts a lot of theories, some turn out to be on the mark, others not so much. Given his propensity to bet body parts on his theories, I imagine he looks a bit like the Black Knight by now.

View attachment 1761206
Not 100% true my friend. I am also more in tune with the future of the novel than I can let on.
Part of this is because of my previous interest and efforts.
Part of this is because of my input, which is not exclusive to editing style and proofreading.
However, yes the bulk of what I post is pure speculation on my part.
I also "know" a small number of certain things about the novel, as when I hit upon something on one of my wild speculative discussions, they are often confirmed or denied for me.

Plus my hit percentage is a bit better than the poor black knight heh
Peace
 

Arigon

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Aug 27, 2020
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Update
With the Easter Holiday, the update might be slightly delayed. I am supposed to do my part this coming Friday, but if I do not get the script on Friday, I cannot guarantee when it will be posted.

I shall keep y'all advised.

Plug for LikesBlondes and Ptolemy-

Subscribe to their work if you enjoy the novel. They have other jobs, which of course interfere with production. The more support they receive, the more time they will be able to devote. Also check out some of their other work.

Peace
 
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