VN Ren'Py Rebirth [Ep.5 Update 13] [LikesBlondes]

[Dom_D]

The MC requested a boon from her. She granted it on the condition that he and Sharon owed her a boon in return. He agreed. So regardless of whether Laurie chose to go back to work, the MC owes Malia a boon and Malia is now cashing it in.

This very much in keeping with the spirit of the inspirational material. A vampire's reputation is dependent on honoring boons. A vampire who breaks their word or doesn't pay their debts will end up ostracized.

He was stupid to agree with that (nothing new...).

He did agree though, for a f* job, and a small one. Money should be next to nothing for them. He considered them crazy to pay him 50k for a few hours, but the one without common sense is the MC ("common sense" for vamps ofc).

1- find someone rich 2- check if he is a thrall of someone else 3- either change target and repeat from 1 or kill his master if you can 4- make him a thrall 5- now you are rich.
And time is not an issue for them.

Sure you also usually need to gain the permission of the local Archon or Princeps, but it's not as hard as the permission for turning someone, and usually the Princeps ban interference and blood bounds only on "strategic" people (if you thrall the mayor without permission he will call a Blood Hunt, if you thrall the rich but otherwise unuseful heir to something nobody will give a shit usually).

 

[DA22]

Well that message of LB def was quite a bombshell.

Now what we should remember this game derives partly from another game that we shall not mention, that has made an alternative universe based on Judeo/Christian mythology where vampires have been around since the birth of humanity in at least the form of Cain, who according to those myths was cursed for killing his brother.

In this alternative universe some of the most powerful vampires have either been mythologized by humanity into gods or have actually played the roles of Gods directly. (Remember it looks like those older vampires did not really have a masquerade nor did they need to, being way more powerful as current gens mainly around and humanity way less organized or technically advanced. Humanity might be able to erdicate nowadays vamps if they started a crusade, but likely not then) Those elder vamps likely did not only played chess with other vamps, but also with humans and nations forming those myths.

I still agree with Arigon that Callisto is likely the one we surmised earlier, the name is too evocative to be used by accident by the writer together with a few more facts and speculations surrounding her. Now that does not mean C is the only name she ever carried or that all we know from the Callisto myths might be directly related to the character in game.

Remember she is the one the myths were formed around and those myths would have changed over time, it just means there was a reason that the story of the myth were based around her story. Well if true we are talking indeed about an extremely old vampiress, since I have no clue how far back we would have to go back for those original version of those myths, but we are talking at least early Greek. Possibly way older if there were oral traditions before the written ones. This would place C at least quite close to some of the names Arigon from his other game days like to bandy around, if it would not make her a direct descendant or under a different name even one of those.

I will let Arigon or Tiger ponder on possible generation, since they are way better acquainted with at least part of the source material inasfar as it concerns that other game. The fact though that LB used the term that C is myth to current day vampires does make me suspect she is closer linked to those very old gens as just another metusaleh and has been a serious power player in past.

Now that brings me to Vision Girl, I suspect if we are talking about what would be a myth to a 2.500 to 5.000 year old vampire together with some other clues Ayshel also talked about, even Artemis starts to sound a bit of a light weigth and we would indeed be talking about either a Queen of the Damned like figure or someone that would be likely first gen. Vision girl might still be something like Artemis, just become way less likely since the Calisto myths link her quite strongly to Artemis (now what if Artemis was another earlier name for C when she was younger, just speculation but a delightful one ) and LB directly denied that.

Now for that role in some Christian/Judeo and older traditions that never made it into official canon (as quite a few other books and stories did not or they only did in a specific form) there is a specific candidate for that role. In some of those traditions Adam had a wife before Eve, named Lilith that refused to bow down to Adam and was to make a longer story short and was cursed by God and some of her aspects also in later legends are not that far away from vampirism. (This is the older Lilith, there is also a Lilith that is more connected to demons, that is another character if remember right, but someone like Jack the dev of Wicked Choices is way more into that demon stuff as me . )

So as a myth to C in this world it would make sense to think of Lilith, just she is even older as Cain, lol even older as his mother is and in the source material it is Cain that is referenced as the first vampire, not Lilith. Well there are two ways around this in a way. One that Lilith is not fully a vamp as described in that game, and may not suffer the bloodlust as such but was somehow instrumental in putting that curse on Cain and shares in many of the vampire powers since they all originate from her original curse but not all their weaknesses. (Could make some sense, at least to me eve if male her crime was way lighter as Cain's, though disobedience to God was considered a pretty hefty sin in older times).

The second and in a way much more interesting idea would be that both Lilith and Cain were similarly cursed and while Cain is the progenitor from all known bloodlines, there are also bloodlines that go back to Lilith as well and that they have been at a form of war all through history. Now I do not think this story is about this last, but Rebirth more goes Queen of the damned route somehow, but it would make a great basis for a story or even world.

 

[-Hex-]

Now that brings me to Vision Girl, I suspect if we are talking about what would be a myth to a 2.500 to 5.000 year old vampire together with some other clues Ayshel also talked about, even Artemis starts to sound a bit of a light weigth and we would indeed be talking about either a Queen of the Damned like figure or someone that would be likely first gen.

My man if Vision Girl is, in fact, Artemis we're talking about a 3rd gen vampire here, do you have any idea how scary would that be? an enraged 3rd gen in a blood frenzy state could easily level the entire city where this game takes place
I'm also pretty sure that a 1st gen vampire would be Caine himself

Edit. just think that Zapathasura (another 3rd gen) survived to a nuclear explosion lol

 

[DA22]

My man if Vision Girl is, in fact, Artemis we're talking about a 3rd gen vampire here, do you have any idea how scary would that be? an enraged 3rd gen in a blood frenzy state could easily level the entire city where this game takes place
I'm also pretty sure that a 1st gen vampire would be Caine himself

Edit. just think that Zapathasura (another 3rd gen) survived to a nuclear explosion lol

Yeah so think how scary vision girl could be,

Just like I said close to end ,that character has a basis in the old judeo and even older myths that go back to Babylon (Lilith was a known entity already there) and she is even older as Cain. That might lead with some problems with the source material, since they tend to treat her differently from the description of both Arigon and Tiger.

This is a different game though even if uses some of that base and here their curses could be somewhat different and her not having the bloodlust as much as the progeny of Cain for example, though some of her Babylonish characteristics might indicate she had. The mummy remarks though and the way she is referenced in the code that Ayshel also mentioned, makes me think it is more like she turned Cain or was turned by Cain and she is the one many vamps nowadays descend of (In this case she would unlikely to be Lilith, unless in source material Cain would have turned her and their curses had been dissimilar. ).

Now I suspect that a myth to a vampiress that herself is at least 2.500 years old and has taken on mythological proportions for modern vampires in her own right (which also means at least at some time C was very famous or infamous) will be likely going back to the source and be either the Mother or someone directly related to Cain).

 

[FunFuntomes]

unless in source material Cain would have turned her and their curses had been dissimilar. ).

Cain spilled blood, so drinking blood makes sense for his curse

 

[c3p0]

As many times as I've written, although the game is based on WoD, doesn't mean that you can use WoD to explain everhing in Rebirth.
Eg. Cain and Lilith. Were it clear written the story of this two in WoD, here in Rebirth they is nothing about them yet.
So, for all we know, Cain or Lilith can be entirely univolved to the whole vampires history - or not.

I know, I do fabricate a theory on an Arigon level, but what is that Cain is Vision Girl?

 

[Ragnar]

Well that message of LB def was quite a bombshell.

Now what we should remember this game derives partly from another game that we shall not mention, that has made an alternative universe based on Judeo/Christian mythology where vampires have been around since the birth of humanity in at least the form of Cain, who according to those myths was cursed for killing his brother.

In this alternative universe some of the most powerful vampires have either been mythologized by humanity into gods or have actually played the roles of Gods directly. (Remember it looks like those older vampires did not really have a masquerade nor did they need to, being way more powerful as current gens mainly around and humanity way less organized or technically advanced. Humanity might be able to erdicate nowadays vamps if they started a crusade, but likely not then) Those elder vamps likely did not only played chess with other vamps, but also with humans and nations forming those myths.

I still agree with Arigon that Callisto is likely the one we surmised earlier, the name is too evocative to be used by accident by the writer together with a few more facts and speculations surrounding her. Now that does not mean C is the only name she ever carried or that all we know from the Callisto myths might be directly related to the character in game.

Remember she is the one the myths were formed around and those myths would have changed over time, it just means there was a reason that the story of the myth were based around her story. Well if true we are talking indeed about an extremely old vampiress, since I have no clue how far back we would have to go back for those original version of those myths, but we are talking at least early Greek. Possibly way older if there were oral traditions before the written ones. This would place C at least quite close to some of the names Arigon from his other game days like to bandy around, if it would not make her a direct descendant or under a different name even one of those.

I will let Arigon or Tiger ponder on possible generation, since they are way better acquainted with at least part of the source material inasfar as it concerns that other game. The fact though that LB used the term that C is myth to current day vampires does make me suspect she is closer linked to those very old gens as just another metusaleh and has been a serious power player in past.

Now that brings me to Vision Girl, I suspect if we are talking about what would be a myth to a 2.500 to 5.000 year old vampire together with some other clues Ayshel also talked about, even Artemis starts to sound a bit of a light weigth and we would indeed be talking about either a Queen of the Damned like figure or someone that would be likely first gen. Vision girl might still be something like Artemis, just become way less likely since the Calisto myths link her quite strongly to Artemis (now what if Artemis was another earlier name for C when she was younger, just speculation but a delightful one ) and LB directly denied that.

Now for that role in some Christian/Judeo and older traditions that never made it into official canon (as quite a few other books and stories did not or they only did in a specific form) there is a specific candidate for that role. In some of those traditions Adam had a wife before Eve, named Lilith that refused to bow down to Adam and was to make a longer story short and was cursed by God and some of her aspects also in later legends are not that far away from vampirism. (This is the older Lilith, there is also a Lilith that is more connected to demons, that is another character if remember right, but someone like Jack the dev of Wicked Choices is way more into that demon stuff as me . )

So as a myth to C in this world it would make sense to think of Lilith, just she is even older as Cain, lol even older as his mother is and in the source material it is Cain that is referenced as the first vampire, not Lilith. Well there are two ways around this in a way. One that Lilith is not fully a vamp as described in that game, and may not suffer the bloodlust as such but was somehow instrumental in putting that curse on Cain and shares in many of the vampire powers since they all originate from her original curse but not all their weaknesses. (Could make some sense, at least to me eve if male her crime was way lighter as Cain's, though disobedience to God was considered a pretty hefty sin in older times).

The second and in a way much more interesting idea would be that both Lilith and Cain were similarly cursed and while Cain is the progenitor from all known bloodlines, there are also bloodlines that go back to Lilith as well and that they have been at a form of war all through history. Now I do not think this story is about this last, but Rebirth more goes Queen of the damned route somehow, but it would make a great basis for a story or even world.

Cain and Lilith, 1st generation, are in an entire different league, they only appear in the mythos of the setting.
3rd Generation ( founders of the Clans ) are Gods among vampires that never or rarely come into play because their power is just too high. Also they need tons of vampire blood to stay awake, we're talking about draining hundreds of lesser vampires.

The most powerful vampires that play a role in the games are usually from 4th or lower generations.
Callisto must be a really powerful vampire by Rebirth standards but if we're gonna talk about vampire power levels she can't be that high in the totem pole. She doesn't look nor act like a 4th gen.

 

[DA22]

Cain and Lilith, 1st generation, are in an entire different league, they only appear in the mythos of the setting.
3rd Generation ( founders of the Clans ) are Gods among vampires that never or rarely come into play because their power is just too high. Also they need tons of vampire blood to stay awake, we're talking about draining hundreds of lesser vampires.

The most powerful vampires that play a role in the games are usually from 4th or lower generations.
Callisto must be a really powerful vampire by Rebirth standards but if we're gonna talk about vampire power levels she can't be that high in the totem pole. She doesn't look nor act like a 4th gen.

Yeah but would a relatively young gen 5 be a myth to vampires currently around, which will include some pretty old vampires in their own right that are lower as gen 8 likely? Besides like c3p0 and also Arigon argued before, this game might not have stayed too close on the gen and mythological front of the other game. Well we will learn more during the course of chapter 3 according to information Arigon got, so maybe in a year we know what is closer to the truth.

 

[Princearif]

Likesblondes discord invite link anyone?

 

[Arigon]

Well that message of LB def was quite a bombshell.

Now what we should remember this game derives partly from another game that we shall not mention, that has made an alternative universe based on Judeo/Christian mythology where vampires have been around since the birth of humanity in at least the form of Cain, who according to those myths was cursed for killing his brother.

In this alternative universe some of the most powerful vampires have either been mythologized by humanity into gods or have actually played the roles of Gods directly. (Remember it looks like those older vampires did not really have a masquerade nor did they need to, being way more powerful as current gens mainly around and humanity way less organized or technically advanced. Humanity might be able to erdicate nowadays vamps if they started a crusade, but likely not then) Those elder vamps likely did not only played chess with other vamps, but also with humans and nations forming those myths.

I still agree with Arigon that Callisto is likely the one we surmised earlier, the name is too evocative to be used by accident by the writer together with a few more facts and speculations surrounding her. Now that does not mean C is the only name she ever carried or that all we know from the Callisto myths might be directly related to the character in game.

Remember she is the one the myths were formed around and those myths would have changed over time, it just means there was a reason that the story of the myth were based around her story. Well if true we are talking indeed about an extremely old vampiress, since I have no clue how far back we would have to go back for those original version of those myths, but we are talking at least early Greek. Possibly way older if there were oral traditions before the written ones. This would place C at least quite close to some of the names Arigon from his other game days like to bandy around, if it would not make her a direct descendant or under a different name even one of those.

I will let Arigon or Tiger ponder on possible generation, since they are way better acquainted with at least part of the source material inasfar as it concerns that other game. The fact though that LB used the term that C is myth to current day vampires does make me suspect she is closer linked to those very old gens as just another metusaleh and has been a serious power player in past.

Now that brings me to Vision Girl, I suspect if we are talking about what would be a myth to a 2.500 to 5.000 year old vampire together with some other clues Ayshel also talked about, even Artemis starts to sound a bit of a light weigth and we would indeed be talking about either a Queen of the Damned like figure or someone that would be likely first gen. Vision girl might still be something like Artemis, just become way less likely since the Calisto myths link her quite strongly to Artemis (now what if Artemis was another earlier name for C when she was younger, just speculation but a delightful one ) and LB directly denied that.

Now for that role in some Christian/Judeo and older traditions that never made it into official canon (as quite a few other books and stories did not or they only did in a specific form) there is a specific candidate for that role. In some of those traditions Adam had a wife before Eve, named Lilith that refused to bow down to Adam and was to make a longer story short and was cursed by God and some of her aspects also in later legends are not that far away from vampirism. (This is the older Lilith, there is also a Lilith that is more connected to demons, that is another character if remember right, but someone like Jack the dev of Wicked Choices is way more into that demon stuff as me . )

So as a myth to C in this world it would make sense to think of Lilith, just she is even older as Cain, lol even older as his mother is and in the source material it is Cain that is referenced as the first vampire, not Lilith. Well there are two ways around this in a way. One that Lilith is not fully a vamp as described in that game, and may not suffer the bloodlust as such but was somehow instrumental in putting that curse on Cain and shares in many of the vampire powers since they all originate from her original curse but not all their weaknesses. (Could make some sense, at least to me eve if male her crime was way lighter as Cain's, though disobedience to God was considered a pretty hefty sin in older times).

The second and in a way much more interesting idea would be that both Lilith and Cain were similarly cursed and while Cain is the progenitor from all known bloodlines, there are also bloodlines that go back to Lilith as well and that they have been at a form of war all through history. Now I do not think this story is about this last, but Rebirth more goes Queen of the damned route somehow, but it would make a great basis for a story or even world.

Ok so to address some of this.

Calisto- somewhere around 2500-3000 years old, and a mythic Greek figure. She would, if the vampires of the city knew everything, inspire both fear and lust. Fear of what she can do, and lust for what you can get if you manage to commit Amaranth on her. (diablerie) She is almost certainly 4th generation, had a single childe before the MC, and that experience was awful. (Reference Fabian's comments on his surprise she reproduced again.) That childe, if we follow the mythic traditions was Arcus, a great hunter, and like his mother, a bear. Again, according to the mythic tales, Arcus nearly slew Calisto allegedly mistaking her for a great bear, and as he was renowned as a hunter, was targeting her. He was foiled by her "Grandfather" Zeus according to the myth, and to symbolically represent this the constellations Ursa Major -Calisto and Ursa Minor-Arcus were set in the sky. Some versions of the myth have deaths involved but generally it is accepted that both lived.

There are many tales of children killing or defeating their parents, Zeus and his siblings defeated their parents the Titans for instance. So the idea of Arcus going after Calisto is not unheard of.

Now the cool part is that in the real world, these were Cthonic deities. This means blood sacrifices were a part of their worship. A great many of the ancient gods, including the Hebrew/Christian God were/are blood cults. Calisto was a part of such a cult, as were almost all of the Greek Gods. Norse Gods also had blood worship, as did the Egyptians. I only mention this to show 3 very different cultures had similar worship rites.

Interesting factoid for folks- When in Philadelphia, 95% of the answers to any question is Benjamin Franklin. Franklin was a true Renaissance being. He was also something that I guess if I were to ever really have a religion, it would follow his beliefs after adding in Star Wars' Force. Franklin was a Deist. In other words, all religions bring something to the table, and all deities have a seat at that table.

So ancient mythology is the passing of knowledge from the past, to the cynical present. All that aside, the myths surrounding Calisto are clear.

Now, Vision Girl.....
Religions that pre-date the Greeks are actually quite a few. From the Middle and Far East there are countless major religions, some of which persist to this day. One that is prevalent is Ancestor worship, the idea that each generation that passes, down from the Ancestor is somehow less powerful and worthy and that that generation should aspire to be like that which is worshiped. Interesting when placed in a Vampire context don't you think?

The Egyptians, The Sumer, The Vedic, The Celestial Host/Empire, Ameri-Indian Spirit Worship, Japanese Shinto...the list can go on. Several of the above pre-date the Greek's Civilization, by thousands of years, the Roman adoption and rebranding of the Greek Gods is even closer to our time and remote from the ancients..

To say that Vision Girl would be mythical to a 3000 year old vampire goddess nymph is scary. It is beautiful because it does a deliberate walk away from Mark Rein-Hagen and the Hebrew and Christian faith, yet even those had Titans in them. They are called monotheistic but that is not really true of any of the religions derived from the Hebrew faith. One of the Ten Commandments that Southern Baptists would have you believe is metaphorically speaking of concepts such as greed or lust states "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me!" I was brought up to be a preacher, but rebelled and became a physics major and then later a master's degree in Aerospace Engineering. I kept mythology and philosophy as an interest, primarily due to my gaming interests and my own literary aspirations. The above commandment is not speaking to "concepts" which have their own commandments admonishing them. It literally meant do not worship other gods more than you revere the Hebrew God.

So all that said, all faiths have a place in myth and modern thinking. Quantum Physics is coming closer and closer to magic. Now I am not here to give a philosophical or metaphysical lecture. I want to talk about the ancient myths in the context of the novel.

Calisto was revered, and earned a place in the heavens as a constellation. Ursa Major is a big time constellation to devote to a nymph.... but that Nymph was loved by Zeus and had his child Arcus. Put in Vampire terms, she was protected by her clan head. So you are talking about an important vampire. Powerful and glorious in her time and even more so now.

To have the Vision Girl be considered by Calisto in that exact same light, as compared to herself, boggles the mind.
I do not believe she is the Queen of the Damned. As I noted earlier there are a lot of very early myths which could have vampires as their source. Something else that these myths almost all have is a precursor to the gods and goddesses which fill their pantheons. Titans are a usual term used. So I do not think Vision Girl is Lilith, well ok no, I guess I will say it, I Know she is not Lilith for this novel. She herself has a precursor or two. She does come from a much earlier religion though. Which was mythical in Calisto's time. That is not really a spoiler, but it kind of is. Who she is for sure? I do not know. That she is what I just said, I do know to 99% certainty.

So who is she?
A Cthonic goddess for sure, by which I mean one which accepted blood sacrifice.
Youthful but Timeless
Ancient. Not Greek. Not Roman...Egyptian maybe? Sumerian maybe? Vedic? Best way to search and narrow it down is to look at truly ancient civilizations that pre-date Greek Mythology by a mythic amount of time.
Neither LikesBlondes or Ptolemy have confirmed my theories, nor torn them down.
My guess Sumerian mythology, Inanna. I guess this, for a number of reasons;
She is youthful and exudes sexuality

1:She seems whimsical yet darkly so.

2:Inanna was a love goddess, later renamed Ishtar, later still served as an origin of the Greek Aphrodite. (She has the planet Venus as her star if you will.)

3: She is a war goddess as well, and was known for her conquest of other's territories. (including her sister's realm)

4: Her older sister rules the underworld, her name is Ereshkigal. Both of them were born from Anu and Ki the two primal deities.

5: Ereshkigal eventually becomes the Greek Goddess Hekate the goddess of Magic. (Templars/pseudo Tremere anyone?)

6: Inanna/Ishtar/Aphrodite and even some have linked to Athena due to her war aspect, was served by Nymphs (Calisto and her sisters are Nymphs in Greek Mythology, but more divine than the garden variety nymphs as they have actual divine blood) Ereshkigal is also EXPLICITLY served by nymphs in vastly pre-Greek myth.

I have several other reasons, but they are just piling on more reasons, and do more relating to the tight relationship between Hekate and Inanna/Ishtar. Our Vision Girl fits the physical description well, and in her adventure to take over the Underworld, she had to go through 7 gates, and at each gate, lose an article of clothing, until she was naked when she came before her sister......Vision Girl...lovely Naked Vision Girl.....

Inanna/Ishtar are actually mentioned in Hebrew writings.... just an FYI.

Ok gang that is my blast for today. My youngest kid just turned 12, and my youngest grandkid is now 1 month old, her sister just turned 1 year old, and their brother is now 8. I have 3 other kids as well. Those poor souls have to listen to "Pops" as I regale them with shit like this all the time, so it just seems natural to share.

Peace all!

 

[Ayhsel]

I am going by the assumption the Red Dream beauty is mother of all vampires. I recently gave my reasons here after Arigon released information explained by likesblondes. More than anything, she is coded mom, although this can be simply counter measure to avoid revealing who she really is.

I have to catch up on so many messages.

But the current information revealed by Arigon of his messages with likesblondes about our cute, naked baby really increases chances that Artemis is vampire queen. This has always been my first assumption but at the same time my desire so I never pushed it too much simply because I was not sure if it was simply my desire pushing for that outcome.
Obviously, the very big hint was she being coded as mom. Given that Callisto is MC's vamp mom, my preferred reason for why Artemis would be "mom" is if she is mother of all vampires.. This idea is made stronger when mc feeds from sharon, and he hees artemis that tells something "nice, but remember she is not you real mother".
The other hint, the fact that they are going for 5 chapters. This is clearly going to be way shorter than all of us were hoping for. But then, it kind of make sense for the most op character to appear already.

Anyway.. I did send a message to likesblondes telling him 5 chapters was too little. He said the same he said to Arigon, that they might do extra for additional plot stories, but that given that each chapter is takin them around a year (bit less actually), they cannot commit to more than that.

Now I suspect that a myth to a vampiress that herself is at least 2.500 years old and has taken on mythological proportions for modern vampires in her own right (which also means at least at some time C was very famous or infamous) will be likely going back to the source and be either the Mother or someone directly related to Cain).

If Callisto is easily 2000 years old, given what we know of her, and Red Dream Beauty is a myth even to her, the latter is easily a few thousands years older.

My man if Vision Girl is, in fact, Artemis we're talking about a 3rd gen vampire here, do you have any idea how scary would that be?

Naked all powerful babe getting angry and looking at us as desert? Damn... it is getting hot in here!!

 

[DA22]

Ok so to address some of this.

Calisto- somewhere around 2500-3000 years old, and a mythic Greek figure. She would, if the vampires of the city knew everything, inspire both fear and lust. Fear of what she can do, and lust for what you can get if you manage to commit Amaranth on her. (diablerie) She is almost certainly 4th generation, had a single childe before the MC, and that experience was awful. (Reference Fabian's comments on his surprise she reproduced again.) That childe, if we follow the mythic traditions was Arcus, a great hunter, and like his mother, a bear. Again, according to the mythic tales, Arcus nearly slew Calisto allegedly mistaking her for a great bear, and as he was renowned as a hunter, was targeting her. He was foiled by her "Grandfather" Zeus according to the myth, and to symbolically represent this the constellations Ursa Major -Calisto and Ursa Minor-Arcus were set in the sky. Some versions of the myth have deaths involved but generally it is accepted that both lived.

There are many tales of children killing or defeating their parents, Zeus and his siblings defeated their parents the Titans for instance. So the idea of Arcus going after Calisto is not unheard of.

Now the cool part is that in the real world, these were Cthonic deities. This means blood sacrifices were a part of their worship. A great many of the ancient gods, including the Hebrew/Christian God were/are blood cults. Calisto was a part of such a cult, as were almost all of the Greek Gods. Norse Gods also had blood worship, as did the Egyptians. I only mention this to show 3 very different cultures had similar worship rites.

Interesting factoid for folks- When in Philadelphia, 95% of the answers to any question is Benjamin Franklin. Franklin was a true Renaissance being. He was also something that I guess if I were to ever really have a religion, it would follow his beliefs after adding in Star Wars' Force. Franklin was a Deist. In other words, all religions bring something to the table, and all deities have a seat at that table.

So ancient mythology is the passing of knowledge from the past, to the cynical present. All that aside, the myths surrounding Calisto are clear.

Now, Vision Girl.....
Religions that pre-date the Greeks are actually quite a few. From the Middle and Far East there are countless major religions, some of which persist to this day. One that is prevalent is Ancestor worship, the idea that each generation that passes, down from the Ancestor is somehow less powerful and worthy and that that generation should aspire to be like that which is worshiped. Interesting when placed in a Vampire context don't you think?

The Egyptians, The Sumer, The Vedic, The Celestial Host/Empire, Ameri-Indian Spirit Worship, Japanese Shinto...the list can go on. Several of the above pre-date the Greek's Civilization, by thousands of years, the Roman adoption and rebranding of the Greek Gods is even closer to our time and remote from the ancients..

To say that Vision Girl would be mythical to a 3000 year old vampire goddess nymph is scary. It is beautiful because it does a deliberate walk away from Mark Rein-Hagen and the Hebrew and Christian faith, yet even those had Titans in them. They are called monotheistic but that is not really true of any of the religions derived from the Hebrew faith. One of the Ten Commandments that Southern Baptists would have you believe is metaphorically speaking of concepts such as greed or lust states "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me!" I was brought up to be a preacher, but rebelled and became a physics major and then later a master's degree in Aerospace Engineering. I kept mythology and philosophy as an interest, primarily due to my gaming interests and my own literary aspirations. The above commandment is not speaking to "concepts" which have their own commandments admonishing them. It literally meant do not worship other gods more than you revere the Hebrew God.

So all that said, all faiths have a place in myth and modern thinking. Quantum Physics is coming closer and closer to magic. Now I am not here to give a philosophical or metaphysical lecture. I want to talk about the ancient myths in the context of the novel.

Calisto was revered, and earned a place in the heavens as a constellation. Ursa Major is a big time constellation to devote to a nymph.... but that Nymph was loved by Zeus and had his child Arcus. Put in Vampire terms, she was protected by her clan head. So you are talking about an important vampire. Powerful and glorious in her time and even more so now.

To have the Vision Girl be considered by Calisto in that exact same light, as compared to herself, boggles the mind.
I do not believe she is the Queen of the Damned. As I noted earlier there are a lot of very early myths which could have vampires as their source. Something else that these myths almost all have is a precursor to the gods and goddesses which fill their pantheons. Titans are a usual term used. So I do not think Vision Girl is Lilith, well ok no, I guess I will say it, I Know she is not Lilith for this novel. She herself has a precursor or two. She does come from a much earlier religion though. Which was mythical in Calisto's time. That is not really a spoiler, but it kind of is. Who she is for sure? I do not know. That she is what I just said, I do know to 99% certainty.

So who is she?
A Cthonic goddess for sure, by which I mean one which accepted blood sacrifice.
Youthful but Timeless
Ancient. Not Greek. Not Roman...Egyptian maybe? Sumerian maybe? Vedic? Best way to search and narrow it down is to look at truly ancient civilizations that pre-date Greek Mythology by a mythic amount of time.
Neither LikesBlondes or Ptolemy have confirmed my theories, nor torn them down.
My guess Sumerian mythology, Inanna. I guess this, for a number of reasons;
She is youthful and exudes sexuality

1:She seems whimsical yet darkly so.

2:Inanna was a love goddess, later renamed Ishtar, later still served as an origin of the Greek Aphrodite. (She has the planet Venus as her star if you will.)

3: She is a war goddess as well, and was known for her conquest of other's territories. (including her sister's realm)

4: Her older sister rules the underworld, her name is Ereshkigal. Both of them were born from Anu and Ki the two primal deities.

5: Ereshkigal eventually becomes the Greek Goddess Hekate the goddess of Magic. (Templars/pseudo Tremere anyone?)

6: Inanna/Ishtar/Aphrodite and even some have linked to Athena due to her war aspect, was served by Nymphs (Calisto and her sisters are Nymphs in Greek Mythology, but more divine than the garden variety nymphs as they have actual divine blood) Ereshkigal is also EXPLICITLY served by nymphs in vastly pre-Greek myth.

I have several other reasons, but they are just piling on more reasons, and do more relating to the tight relationship between Hekate and Inanna/Ishtar. Our Vision Girl fits the physical description well, and in her adventure to take over the Underworld, she had to go through 7 gates, and at each gate, lose an article of clothing, until she was naked when she came before her sister......Vision Girl...lovely Naked Vision Girl.....

Inanna/Ishtar are actually mentioned in Hebrew writings.... just an FYI.

Ok gang that is my blast for today. My youngest kid just turned 12, and my youngest grandkid is now 1 month old, her sister just turned 1 year old, and their brother is now 8. I have 3 other kids as well. Those poor souls have to listen to "Pops" as I regale them with shit like this all the time, so it just seems natural to share.

Peace all!

You make an interesting case for Inanna and if you walk outside of the more direct Judeo/Christian mythology/traditions then Lillith starts making less sense though besides as a Mother of all vamps within that tradition and she is quite often portrayed with vampiric characteristics.

One other likely even older worship though if we go there is the Great Mother worship that many older goddesses including Inanna were remnants and mutations of. Now she def had blood offers and tended to devour her lovers in some myths, also here Aphrodite comes back in some of her rites. That would go back to a Mother of all vampires character though and that is not the feeling you got based on the information you got.

So yeah I could easily live with a vampire that would have inspired the mythological Inanna and maybe Aphrodite and others as well and she would indeed be someone that would make sense as a myth as an older vampire and very close to the source even for someone like Calisto. Which if we are to believe was the source/inspiration of the Calisto myths, instead of someone that took the name cause she identified with the myth of Callisto, would be someone that had at least run ins but likely more direct ties with vampires that inspired Zeus, Hera and Artemis. ). Also such an old vampire might well fulfill the Mummy definition and have quite a few of the current vampires or even one or a few clans descend from her.

 

[FunFuntomes]

She doesn't look nor act like a 4th gen.

why would you say that? she behaves royally and majestically, as of her appearance, she might have altered it to modern standards of beauty

I am going by the assumption the Red Dream beauty is mother of all vampires.

you just want to have fun with VG

other likely even older worship though if we go there is the Great

this is something that scares me. if she planned MC's embrace, how strong is the Him she wants MC to defeat ?

 

[Ayhsel]

you just want to have fun with VG

More like I want her to have fun with me!

 

[FunFuntomes]

More like I want her to have fun with me!

can't fault you for that....

now that I think about it, Arigon had that interesting theory about Astrid being a dude, we know it's false however with what he conveyed from LikesBlondes... what if VG is Cain but at the same time isn't ? let's say once all the second generation vampires were created, Cain embraced another one, but this one attempted to diablerise him,yet due to Cain's stronger blood his soul overtook the one snacking on him and thus Vision Girl came to be. A vampire attempting to diablerise the OG would certainly be a myth for Calisto.

 

[DA22]

why would you say that? she behaves royally and majestically, as of her appearance, she might have altered it to modern standards of beauty

you just want to have fun with VG

this is something that scares me. if she planned MC's embrace, how strong is the Him she wants MC to defeat ?

Well if take all the blood away Vision Girl is not unattractive and she seems quite attentive to our MC. Lol let's not quibble she is hot as hell, literally.

Well if vision girl thinks C needs help possibly against him as Arigon thinks, whether C is the 2500 year old super attractive milf we think she is or if C is for another reason a myth to current vampy's. We are not talking some slob like Marcius or likely even the princeps, but a serious danger to C who is more or less portrayed in game as a powerful lady with great influence that is being served by others that are quite powerful in their own right like Fabian. So take your pick or poison if you would prefer if that would be true.

Now if he is a different danger, that gets way harder to predict besides that we now know that someone that is at the least a metusaleh and a myth to a myth is worried enough to have MC created to help deal with him, so likely not a wuss either in that case.

 

[FunFuntomes]

Well if vision girl thinks C needs help possibly against him as Arigon thinks, whether C is the 2500 year old super attractive milf we think she is or if C is for another reason a myth to current vampy's. We are not talking some slob like Marcius or likely even the princeps, but a serious danger to C who is more or less portrayed in game as a powerful lady with great influence that is being served by others that are quite powerful in her right. So take your pick if that would be true.

Now if he is a different danger, that gets way harder to predict besides that we now know that someone that is at the least a metusaleh and a myth to a myth is worried enough to have MC created to help deal with him, so likely not a wuss either in that case.

perhaps we are putting too much importance to the Him VG speaks of and perhaps Calisto doesn't need MC to dispatch any enemy, yet if she were to fight Him she would , due to her whimiskal nature, go into a frenzy that would break the masquerade and cause havoc?
perhaps MC's role is to fight in Calisto's stead

 

[Ayhsel]

can't fault you for that....

now that I think about it, Arigon had that interesting theory about Astrid being a dude, we know it's false however with what he conveyed from LikesBlondes... what if VG is Cain but at the same time isn't ? let's say once all the second generation vampires were created, Cain embraced another one, but this one attempted to diablerise him,yet due to Cain's stronger blood his soul overtook the one snacking on him and thus Vision Girl came to be. A vampire attempting to diablerise the OG would certainly be a myth for Calisto.

All the same reasons why I suggested at the moment that that would be a terrible idea apply here. It is not just my wishful thinking, I think it would be bad for the novel from a literary point of view. And even more from a fan base point of view.

But all in all, everything is possible until dev straight up denies it.

 

[Tserriednich'sNen]

How old would a ancient vamp like dream girl be, like how many years are we talking? would they have been around during the first major human civilizations (Mesopotamia, Egypt, Indus river valley, China)?

 

[c3p0]

now that I think about it, @Arigon had that interesting theory about Astrid being a dude, we know it's false however with what he conveyed from LikesBlondes... what if VG is Cain but at the same time isn't ?

I know, I do fabricate a theory on an Arigon level, but what is that Cain is Vision Girl?