Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.05 Dev] [Vénus Noire]

[Hekzow]

After all, if you must hate 'Gays/Homosexuals', you should hate them equally. Otherwise, you are likely a hypocrite with double-standards.

I doubt anyone is disliking these scenes from some sort of religious homophobic angle. It's pretty obvious why a heterosexual male, who I assume to be the main demographic for this game (If the devs prove me wrong I'll be pleasantly surprised) would prefer to see a scene with one character he finds sexuall attractive, two characters he finds sexually attractive than a scene that does absolutely nothing for him.

I do think that it's a bit silly to complain about gay content in SoC, considering it's been there since the very beginning.

However, I do think that people would be a lot more accepting of the scenes if the protagonist was the one in charge. As it is right now, Rowan is a passive participant in all scenes but two I believe.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Much of the development time was taken by a long prologue back when the writing team was a fraction of the size. Much of the early part of this year involved a slowdown on the writing side for reasons it's hard to go into. Basically, the ammount of content is increasing at a near exponential pace. Right now we're looking at around 5-6 scenes on average per release and 6 or 7 CGs.

I strongly suspect this game will be in development for years longer. Furthermore, I suspect strongly the development will have a tail end of continued art coming out. However, none of those things are my choices, since I write but I don't make high level development choices.

But, consider. It's not like SoC's development is preventing VN from making other games. We're taking lessons learned from SoC's development into JC. It's not like there's a huge risk of us running out of money at the present. An upside of continuous funding is it reduces the risk of bankrupcy. And then in terms of sheer organization, I agree that a game with huge swathes of content is harder to make. But, one of the key goals of the past few months has been improving organization to acomidate. You might be shocked to learn this, but in the past few months, the organizational backend of SoC has improved dramatically.

So in short, yet the game is long. But, we constantly release on time and we have more content every month. So my advice is, sit back and enjoy the show. It ain't going anywhere. (Also to become a patron if you aren't already, but that's besides the point XD)

 

[T51bwinterized]

I doubt anyone is disliking these scenes from some sort of religious homophobic angle. It's pretty obvious why a heterosexual male, who I assume to be the main demographic for this game (If the devs prove me wrong I'll be pleasantly surprised) would prefer to see a scene with one character he finds sexuall attractive, two characters he finds sexually attractive than a scene that does absolutely nothing for him.

I do think that it's a bit silly to complain about gay content in SoC, considering it's been there since the very beginning.

However, I do think that people would be a lot more accepting of the scenes if the protagonist was the one in charge. As it is right now, Rowan is a passive participant in all scenes but two I believe.

We do not consider that correct. While the game is appealing to heterosexual males with large swathes of content, bisexual or pansexual players can get enjoyment as well. Same with non-male or queer players. We don't really have a target demographic besides "People who like corruption and fantasy sex".

What this means in practice, is that we see no special reason to focus on the views of heterosexual men over other demographic groups. This does not mean that we are not concerned with their views or don't want to appeal to heterosexual men. I, for example, am a heterosexual man. But, we don't view them as more the core demographic then others in out descion making.

I was making the point about F/F in reply to claims by some people that their problem with the game isn't that some of the content doesn't appeal to them, but that they think it's bad to have broad content types in general. My answer was pointing out examples of broadness within the content types that the particular fan and others with similair complaints enjoy in order to disprove the point.

Lastly, I think your number of Rowan passive scenes is wrong. All or most of the Liurial scenes, a number of the Helayna scenes, Some Alexia scenes, some of the scenes from the Orciad (Tarish for example), are all Rowan dominant/aggresive. More to the point, we've been making a deliberate effort to increase the number of scenes with a dominant Rowan.

 

[Hekzow]

I was making the point about F/F in reply to claims by some people that their problem with the game isn't that some of the content doesn't appeal to them, but that they think it's bad to have broad content types in general. My answer was pointing out examples of broadness within the content types that the particular fan and others with similair complaints enjoy in order to disprove the point.

To be completely honest with you I don't actually like this scene either. I generally tend to just ignore the scenes that don't involve Rowan, Alexia (or Helayna) in any way (all whopping what, three of them?). Same goes for those "Rowan met a magical creature in the forest. After dumping two hours of exposition on you, Rowan has sex with the magical creature. You will never meet the creature again".
But you know, I understand that there are probably a lot of people who enjoy these scenes. I also understand that it's there because what fantasy game would it be if you didn't get a ghost blowjob?

Lastly, I think your number of Rowan passive scenes is wrong. All or most of the Liurial scenes, a number of the Helayna scenes, Some Alexia scenes, some of the scenes from the Orciad (Tarish for example), are all Rowan dominant/aggresive.

Sorry, should have specified that I was talking about the gay scenes. From the ones I've seen Rowan is dominant with Draith and Cla-Min's relative. I haven't seen that orciad scene yet.

More to the point, we've been making a deliberate effort to increase the number of scenes with a dominant Rowan.

Yeah, I noticed that. Top notch stuff on that Liurial content.

 

[Snugglepuff]

If people are opposed to seeing Draith x Rowan or Andras x Rowan or Rowan x Dwarf-dude on the grounds of 'Homosexuality', yet have absolutely no problem with seeing Jezera x Whore-lady... they will only earn my laughter.

Basically my thoughts as well. Want to know what I never hear jack shit about? The F/F content. No one ever says that SoC is diluting its focus with F/F content. That we should cut it so that way we can hyper focus on 1 or 2 fetishes. One does have to wonder why making one M/M scene every two months is somehow a dilution of focus while one or two F/F scenes per period is fine and normal?

In all fairness, F/F content is pretty much always going to be more popular than M/M content when it comes to porn consumers.
Since the majority of the people watching that content (and playing games like these) are guys, and majority straight, the higher majority of them will like watching two women having sexual relations.

IIRC, there's also more women that prefer F/F over M/M pornographic content too. At least that's what I recall from a few studies I've read over the years.

In regards to M/M content in this game though, unless I'm mistaken, it's all optional.
I don't personally partake of any of it, but I don't care that it's in the game. As long as it all fits with both the world and characters being created, and the "creator's vision", then it's just fine and dandy.

 

[TheSexinati]

IIRC, there's also more women that prefer F/F over M/M pornographic content too. At least that's what I recall from a few studies I've read over the years.

That seems interesting to me, as it is the opposite of something that I have experienced.

There was a time I went over to this big-time-anime-nerd girl's house back when I was in highschool, and I shit-you-not, she pretty much went around showing me her collection of 'BL' material which she had on her laptop. Yaoi content, yaoi content as far as the eye could see... Folders upon folders. It was actually kind of impressive on the extent on how much porno and yaoi doujinshi's she had on that thing. Edit: I kinda think she has dick-envy.

It was a little weird, to be completely honest. I think she had a crush on me. I'm not sure why she thought it would be okay to show me this content, as beforehand I never mentioned my sexuality... but I think she had some mental issues.

It was great, we watched anime and talked about shit. She introduced me to Berserk and Trigun.

 

[rnn19631]

Has anyone got a save game?

 

[baneini]

I wonder whats the optimal spread of content. Who is going to support a project where only 10% of the content pleases them? Why not instead support a project that does 11-100% content that pleases you?
I'd say vast majority of the content has to appeal 1 market that then supports the game because they get meaningful updates. Like 60% minimum. Casting a wide net is never the optimal way to make money. Pick your market.

Another point is that narrowing the focus allows more consistent characters. The gay scenes kinda ruin the mc's characterization. "Everyone's bi-sexual and has a magic penis to cast a wide net", well okay it's not just positive, you lose something important alongside it too.

 

[T51bwinterized]

We will continue to pursue out content for fans who enjoy male on male content. We have no plans to stop. In fact, we hope to expand our M/M content more in the future.

We will also continue to provide contents for straight fans. I have been serious about this statement in the past and will continue to insist this. We will never take seriously the argument of straight only players who want to remove M/M content, because we have a sizeable audiece of players who enjoy M/m...so sizeable as to actually pay for the M/m content all by themselves. We will not be removing that content from the game full stop. Ever.

We much prefer a productive convenient about what people like or dislike about the content in the game, and affirmative things people want to see. If you want more of Rowan as a pitcher, Rowan as a Dom, Rowan as a sub, Alexia as a Dom/sub/slut/unicorn.

You will never ever convince us that a segment of our user base is illegitimate just because you want 6 straight or F/F scenes per month instead of 5.

 

[Emilee Teresta]

We will continue to pursue out content for fans who enjoy male on male content. We have no plans to stop. In fact, we hope to expand our M/M content more in the future.

We will also continue to provide contents for straight fans. I have been serious about this statement in the past and will continue to insist this. We will never take seriously the argument of straight only players who want to remove M/M content, because we have a sizeable audiece of players who enjoy M/m...so sizeable as to actually pay for the M/m content all by themselves. We will not be removing that content from the game full stop. Ever.

We much prefer a productive convenient about what people like or dislike about the content in the game, and affirmative things people want to see. If you want more of Rowan as a pitcher, Rowan as a Dom, Rowan as a sub, Alexia as a Dom/sub/slut/unicorn.

You will never ever convince us that a segment of our user base is illegitimate just because you want 6 straight or F/F scenes per month instead of 5.

For the love of god and all that is holy, please please please have Andras impregnate Alexia, then have Rowan cry when he finds out about it. Then after the birth have the smug Andras force Rowan to be the babysitter of his new cuckold-born baby.

 

[revan335]

Winter and Rein thank you for engaging with the community here. I had another question about the game's future content. I know there was some art going around about that one blonde futa nemesis that Rowan was going to deal with. As there hasn't been much male on futa content in the game, will Rowan be able to turn her into his sub much like he has that Liural?

 

[T51bwinterized]

For the love of god and all that is holy, please please please have Andras impregnate Alexia, then have Rowan cry when he finds out about it. Then after the birth have the smug Andras force Rowan to be the babysitter of his new cuckold-born baby.

I'm not going to comment on this one directly per say besides saying...well...most of the writing team and Arioch himself are stated fans of impregnation. Do with that fact whatever you will.

Winter and Rein thank you for engaging with the community here. I had another question about the game's future content. I know there was some art going around about that one blonde futa nemesis that Rowan was going to deal with. As there hasn't been much male on futa content in the game, will Rowan be able to turn her into his sub much like he has that Liural?

That art, I believe, was a leak. So I can't comment on the art leak specifically. That said, we very much have not solidified all of our plans in relation to that character. If there specific segments of content people would want to see for her in particular, you are free to bring it up and it will be reviewed. We do read feedback. But, I can't answer that one just yet.

 

[baneini]

We will also continue to provide contents for straight fans. I have been serious about this statement in the past and will continue to insist this. We will never take seriously the argument of straight only players who want to remove M/M content, because we have a sizeable audiece of players who enjoy M/m...so sizeable as to actually pay for the M/m content all by themselves.

In an alternate universe where SoC team decided on a narrower focus to cater to straight male audience, do you think they gained more support or less? The straight male audience is simply much larger, with an incremental increase in value for that market the gains are largest. Creating content for them is the best way to make the largest amount of people happy and make the most money, I would guess. Like if you just do the math "Theres 50 times larger audience for scene type X than Y, at what point does making a scene Y make financial sense?". Maybe there's some point, but it's not obvious.

I'm talking about a peak, the optimal, best possible outcome for everyone etc. You might not value the same thing which is fine, some people value things other than monetary success. However I'd advocate for a narrow focus if your goal is to make the best possible game.

 

[dancecommander12]

That art, I believe, was a leak. So I can't comment on the art leak specifically. That said, we very much have not solidified all of our plans in relation to that character. If there specific segments of content people would want to see for her in particular, you are free to bring it up and it will be reviewed. We do read feedback. But, I can't answer that one just yet.

I just love super aggressive F/F with a surprise cock thrown in. Get her all hot and bothered with some safe foreplay, and then take advantage of her surprise when she sees what's down below to ravage her holes. Before the poor sub even knows what's going on the dom is fucking her brains out and about to shoot a hot load of potent spunk in her.

 

[T51bwinterized]

In an alternate universe where SoC team decided on a narrower focus to cater to straight male audience, do you think they gained more support or less? The straight male audience is simply much larger, with an incremental increase in value for that market the gains are largest. Creating content for them is the best way to make the largest amount of people happy and make the most money, I would guess. Like if you just do the math "Theres 50 times larger audience for scene type X than Y, at what point does making a scene Y make financial sense?". Maybe there's some point, but it's not obvious.

I'm talking about a peak, the optimal, best possible outcome for everyone etc. You might not value the same thing which is fine, some people value things other than monetary success. However I'd advocate for a narrow focus if your goal is to make the best possible game.

You're wrong for two simple reasons.
1. The competition for the straight male audience is larger too. There is a sizable audience of players who enjoy M/M content and are undeserved. Most of what does exists is targeted narrowly to female fans of M/M. It's a business 101 mistake. You shouldn't just calculate market size but also saturation.
2. You also need to consider that the addition of a new content type is not equivalent in value to more of what already exists. As a result of diminishing returns, the value of a single extra M/F or F/F scene every two months has a much smaller effect on the dial then expanding the audience category dramatically. Also, based on polling we've done the number is quite a bit larger then 2%.

You made these points on a utilitarian as well as economic basis. I will simply point out that the same logic applies. The positive effect had from making those scenes M/M outweighs an equivalent amount of M/F or F/F because of saturation both within the game itself and within the H-games as a whole.

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[dancecommander12]

@T51bwinterized

I'm curious as to whether you're sitting on any other big piles of art that you haven't used yet.

 

[T51bwinterized]

To continue my point from above, what you're doing is completely ignoring the supply side of a supply/demand curve. If what you said was true, it would never be optimal to target anything at all a smaller market segment over a bigger one. Every TV show would hyper specialize narrowly on the group of people who watch the most tv all in the same genre and towards the same demogrphic.

It misses the basic logic of economics. Outside of areas with a hyper compelling reason not to expand audience share, adding width to your demographic expands total potential. The reason not to do it is only in instances where breaking the mold of specialization is not feasible based on entry costs, specific branding concerns, or competition in outside spheres. This is not the case for us.

@Rein you want to expand on this?

 

[baneini]

market size but also saturation.

2. You also need to consider that the addition of a new content type is not equivalent in value to more of what already exists. As a result of diminishing returns, the value of a single extra M/F or F/F scene every two months has a much smaller effect on the dial then expanding the audience category dramatically.

I would argue that the market for well drawn 2dcg, in a western game is not saturated at all. 3dcg is. Your game is distinguishable from the mass of low effort porn games. Your game is one of a few in your niche. And I think the games main focus being M/F means you are indeed competing for that audience (and succeeded mostly thanks to quality art), I think you then need to prioritize them and compete even more harshly.

Polling can be a result of having gay scenes in and asking an established fanbase, people wanting content thats rare in general might be more vocal about it because they're more emotional/vested in it. You also have to consider stuff like are people exclusively into that content or are they merely ok with it and not really care.

 

[desmosome]

If people are opposed to seeing Draith x Rowan or Andras x Rowan or Rowan x Dwarf-dude on the grounds of 'Homosexuality', yet have absolutely no problem with seeing Jezera x Whore-lady... they will only earn my laughter.

After all, if you must hate 'Gays/Homosexuals', you should hate them equally. Otherwise, you are likely a hypocrite with double-standards.

In this way, I Ironically have more respect to proper 'Anti-homosexual' people, than I do for supposedly 'Anti-homosexual' people who see no problem with Lesbians/Lesbian-porn or letting 'Lesbians' slip off 'their radar'.

In which case, I don't really care if the Seeds of Chaos team manage to anger the 'Anti-homosexual' crowd, which as I speak probably won't raise questions/raise a hissy-fit towards lesbian characters being in the game, but will instead likely be fuming over 'Faggots are ruining mah game' et cetera, because I would then derive a sense of somewhat ironic humour out of the situation, and I thrive on humour.

I would also probably subsist myself on eating popcorn at that point whilst I am watching the debacle go down. I have had occasion to eat popcorn in this thread itself at some points, and I have also espoused poetry on a few occasions.

There is nothing hypocritical about hetero males finding lesbian sex erotic while male/male action disgusting. You are trying to be too SJWish(sorry for the term) or politically correct in your assertions. Straight males will generally find the female form appealing so F/F is fine, but would get instant boner kill with male/male. Its pretty much that simple. Its really not some kind of political statement or something. That said, where they might cross the line and turn into one of your "anti-homosexual" people would be if they are obnoxiously demanding removal of gay content or whatever. The devs did a good job making sure that all of the controversial fetishes are optional. If you dont like male/male stuff just make the right choice to bypass it.

Basically, what im getting at is that any kind of sexual preference is a valid one, and everyone should just respect each other. In the end, its the devs who make the choice on what to include anyways. Unless you are a patron with a dev that is open to suggestions on game direction, it doesnt matter at all if you dont like certain fetishes. If it doesnt suit your taste, you are not obligated to play it.

 

[TreebeardTheEnt]

Personally, the economics of the "issue" are irrelevant to me, my problem stems from a lack of consistent characterization. When everyone does anything with anyone, everyone is the same but with a different aesthetic. That's a major negative for me, as the story and characters of a given experience are what interest me.