Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.05 Dev] [Vénus Noire]

[T51bwinterized]

No, I'm not too harsh on your ability to design. I come from a game development background, it crushed my desire to work in game development out of me. It was dreadful, but my armchair is an informed armchair. Based on the product you put out month to month your design is a mess. There's little to no coherent direction or focus which is the difference between designing a game and making one. If you were working on a properly designed game there would be no scenes without artwork, there would be no asking what patreons want you to focus on next, there would be no mechanics that need major changes, there would be no going back and changing certain scenes because they don't fit with what you're making anymore. Game design is the tempered form of a video game. It also means you typically have a very specific route to follow because you're dealing with a detailed design document that is typically hundreds, sometimes thousands of pages long dictating what needs to be done to build the game. Proper game design is knowing what you're going to build before a single line of code is even typed.

And yet many proper games by proper designers end up gaining features, losing features, having systems reworked, dealing with problems like marketing and selling. Have to be salvaged from unworkable states, or else sometimes rebuilt wholesale. Many of the games we'd call classics were made that way.

The "proper" designers of Paradox interactive made CK2, a game probably unrivaled in terms of my play time. It only took them 10 years of constant itiration to do it.

None of this is to excuse or justify some of our failures. Some of our designs stink. Our process is flawed. We've had problems. And that's why we're comitted to constantly doing better and improving the process for our players.

But, this idealogical notion of game design as being birthed full formed from Jesus' vagina is nonsense. Itiration is design. The best designers are largely those who are the best at improving their own work.

 

[ronadan]

If you were working on a properly designed game there would be no scenes without artwork, there would be no asking what patreons want you to focus on next, there would be no mechanics that need major changes, there would be no going back and changing certain scenes because they don't fit with what you're making anymore. Game design is the tempered form of a video game. It also means you typically have a very specific route to follow because you're dealing with a detailed design document that is typically hundreds, sometimes thousands of pages long dictating what needs to be done to build the game.

I don't have your experience in the matter and I'm not trying to just brush off everything u point out here, but as an example what u consider improper game design is the actual model that some very successful recent games with early access built up upon. Hades and Dead cells are both examples. I played Hades from early access and they changed A SHIT TON of their original mechanics, while constantly adding and removing content and taking feedback from the community. The result was a totally successful game. I can't see why SoC can't follow the same path and reach a somewhat similar destination

I can also bring up MOBAs and many reworks they do for different reasons. sometimes a certain character after rework has a completely new design, reflecting how much the game evolved from its earlier versions. Does that mean reworking old mechanics is a sign of bad game design? not necessarily

so overall I do respectfully say that I disagree with your opinion on this matter

 

[T51bwinterized]

I don't have your experience in the matter and I'm not trying to just brush off everything u point out here, but as an example what u consider improper game design is the actual model that some very successful recent games with early access built up upon. Hades and Dead cells are both examples. I played Hades from early access and they changed A SHIT TON of their original mechanics, while constantly adding and removing content and taking feedback from the community. The result was a totally successful game. I can't see why SoC can't follow the same path and reach a somewhat similar destination

I can also bring up MOBAs and many reworks they do for different reasons. sometimes a certain character after rework has a completely new design, reflecting how much the game evolved from its earlier versions. Does that mean reworking old mechanics is a sign of bad game design? not necessarily

so overall I do respectfully say that I disagree with your opinion on this matter

Don't bring up MOBAs bro. I'm taking a break from League and the threat of relapse is real.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

I don't have your experience in the matter and I'm not trying to just brush off everything u point out here, but as an example what u consider improper game design is the actual model that some very successful recent games with early access built up upon. Hades and Dead cells are both examples. I played Hades from early access and they changed A SHIT TON of their original mechanics, while constantly adding and removing content and taking feedback from the community. The result was a totally successful game. I can't see why SoC can't follow the same path and reach a somewhat similar destination

I can also bring up MOBAs and many reworks they do for different reasons. sometimes a certain character after rework has a completely new design, reflecting how much the game evolved from its earlier versions. Does that mean reworking old mechanics is a sign of bad game design? not necessarily

so overall I do respectfully say that I disagree with your opinion on this matter

Another sucessfull example of this is Divinity Original Sin II. A lot of changes were implemented during early acess until the game being released and turning into a sucess.

 

[T51bwinterized]

You'd probably have to work harder to find examples of games that didn't have extensive changes from the base design. Even in cases where the base design was relatively strong or there wasn't early access. You have to account for changing tech, changing budgets, changing personel, systems just not working as intended, and so on.

I've met a good deal of tabletop designers and they never fucking stop itirating. They make a build. Play it. Change shit. Play it. Change shit. Play it. Change shit. More of the design work happens in many cases after the original base design is finalized then before.

 

[Semantics]

While I agree that the slow rate of story progress combined with the small team size opens the game up more to the always present possibility of “shit happens,” I’m curious if anyone’s actually aware of any large scale smut games that have had a more organized, more efficient team outside of the Japanese market? Or for that matter, any smut games that have produced more content in a similar period of time?

I’m honestly curious, I don’t play a lot of western porn games, and a lot of people accuse this game of a lack of progress. I understand most of them are just looking at the version number and making assumptions based on that, and I already granted that main story progression is really slow, but in terms of the amount of work being done and the content that’s been added, I’m actually curious what western porn games are out there that compare favorably.

I think there are western games that get more new content that a player would see in a single playthrough than SoC in the same time frame, but they're without fail 3D or text with occasional pictures, not fully 2D games, and don't diverge in nearly all the ways SoC does. (And then there's the recent rewrites and skill overhaul.) I think the number of mutually exclusive content bits is the biggest contributor to dumb "milking, will be abandoned" type posts. ...At least, assuming said posters do actually play the game.

And I think some of it is that some people are predisposed to think a game has to be completed within a couple years to not be a scam. There are western porn devs that get a large amount of praise for completing small games quickly, which...I've never really understood as a point of praise.

In terms of organized, efficient teams, honestly SoC is only one of two teams where I'm even aware of who the other team members are, because most teams just have a head person who makes public posts, and then few if any of the other team members appear outside a Discord.

 

[ronadan]

I think there are western games that get more new content that a player would see in a single playthrough than SoC in the same time frame, but they're without fail 3D or text with occasional pictures, not fully 2D games, and don't diverge in nearly all the ways SoC does.

There are examples of fully 2D games that fit those standards, but we're talking about a few gems in a huge landfill. Hreinn games for example has Noxian Nights finished and currently they're developing the kingdom of deception. solid game, nice art, fully 2D, VN style. (tho people also complain about them being slow)

but to be fair, it's a reality that many western smut games end up unfinished, rushed, or onhold (basically milking). being concern about something like that is not a bad thing in itself and I personally understand it. what I don't like about these posters is accusing and pointing fingers, sometimes even insulting the devs and judging them based on absolutely nothing, because they just saw the version number and years passed and rushed to the reply section to rescue clueless people from the devs, WHILE NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THE PRODUCT, IN A PIRATE SITE. jesus

 

[Rivina]

Daggerfall Unity took a long time to finish, but it's basically in the beta/bugfixing stage and is likely to release a 1.0 pretty soon. Ambitious products take time and I'm willing to wait.

 

[moonhowler1972]

There are examples of fully 2D games that fit those standards, but we're talking about a few gems in a huge landfill. Hreinn games for example has Noxian Nights finished and currently they're developing the kingdom of deception. solid game, nice art, fully 2D, VN style. (tho people also complain about them being slow)

but to be fair, it's a reality that many western smut games end up unfinished, rushed, or onhold (basically milking). being concern about something like that is not a bad thing in itself and I personally understand it. what I don't like about these posters is accusing and pointing fingers, sometimes even insulting the devs and judging them based on absolutely nothing, because they just saw the version number and years passed and rushed to the reply section to rescue clueless people from the devs, WHILE NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THE PRODUCT, IN A PIRATE SITE. jesus

You cannot seriously bring up KoD as a favourable comparison to Seeds Of Chaos. SoC still has updates every 2 months. KoD hasn't been updated on here since March and the quality of updates has also fallen off dramatically especially in the art department. Whereas with SoC the new art continues to amaze (cheers Sommy) and the older art is being improved. Yes of course we'd all like to see things done quicker. But anyone who accuses the SoC devs of milking should be thankful a project of this scope is still moving steadily and keeping the quality up in its updates.

 

[crescentlegion]

Man all this talk about milking gave me a memory lane trip, I am supporting seed of chaos since 2017 when it first pop in fenoxo forum where Lord Arioch(aka Lord Cuck) himself used so say how he is sinking his own money in this game and constantly in red in terms of money, I still remember this game did not even make $500 month. Not gonna lie those time I constantly worried this game gonna be dead due to low support. How far they have come I feel so glad that I supported this game since its early days.

 

[A360]

No, I'm not too harsh on your ability to design. I come from a game development background, it crushed my desire to work in game development out of me. It was dreadful, but my armchair is an informed armchair.

You couldn't handle the job to the extent you never want to do it again but feel able to tell people how to do the job? That seems a bit arrogant especially when calling others unprofessional in attitude and capability. And you didn't have to deal with people calling you scammers, cucks or asking for x soul scarring fetish to be added. Games by big devs have everything from graphics, story and mechanics reworked, binned or go in a different direction sometimes radically during development, some have things reworked or added after release. An erotic game been made on just over £113,000 a year by a small team is not poorly designed or them unprofessional and lacking in capability for having a similar process. So yeah your criticisms are harsh and unreasonable.

You may have experience with game development but I don't think you know much about managing a big project reliant on funding from the likes of patreon.

Scenes without artwork for example is nothing to do with bad design or even good design. Even if you can do everything else yourself and all the money goes on commissioning the art you will only be getting so much a month. If your game is going to have 200 scenes and the artists can draw 10 scenes a month but 20 scenes are written a month and you have to release every month what are you supposed to do? Scale the game back, change the design, keep delaying scenes until the art is there, sit down and scratch your arse and just stop working? No you release what you have and the art can be added down the line as this and Last Sovereign did because you have a commitment to them patrons and rely on that income. That's nothing to do with poor design it's just a result of how the games funded.

 

[WatsonJohn]

Man all this talk about milking gave me a memory lane trip, I am supporting seed of chaos since 2017 when it first pop in fenoxo forum where Lord Arioch(aka Lord Cuck) himself used so say how he is sinking his own money in this game and constantly in red in terms of money, I still remember this game did not even make $500 month. Not gonna lie those time I constantly worried this game gonna be dead due to low support. How far they have come I feel so glad that I supported this game since its early days.

Lord Arioch is a cuck?

 

[diebesgrab]

Lord Arioch is a cuck?

That’s Lord Cuck to you, peasant.

 

[Nightmare800]

So the game goes up to the siege of rastedel?

 

[T51bwinterized]

So the game goes up to the siege of rastedel?

To the conclusion of the seige.

 

[Drexelhand]

Seeds of Chaos: Star Citizen, but in all seriousness this game isn't that. I wouldn't have bought it on Steam if it were.

 

[T51bwinterized]

We appreciate you, Steam Folks.

 

[ronadan]

You cannot seriously bring up KoD as a favourable comparison to Seeds Of Chaos. SoC still has updates every 2 months. KoD hasn't been updated on here since March and the quality of updates has also fallen off dramatically especially in the art department.

I'm aware of the KoD problems, but they were fine before and delivered what they promised. My point was mostly that we have fully 2D western games that actually ended up fine. like Noxian Nights (and anyone who played NN knows it's pretty good). considering the complications of the last year (covid etc) and the small size of their team, I still have hope for KoD. tho this is not the place to talk about them.

also I do appreciate SoC and its team, their passion and the fact that they're quick in responding to community, even when people act like jerks. THIS is a smut game we should support for sure

 

[Rivina]

Seeds of Chaos: Star Citizen, but in all seriousness this game isn't that. I wouldn't have bought it on Steam if it were.

Oof. As someone who backed Star Citizen, I felt that.

 

[CoaxedIntoThis]

What's the joke about star citizen?