- Sep 6, 2017
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You have your interests and I have mine.
Don't start thinking of yourself superior because of your porn taste, I think it's one of the most pathetic thing I've witnessed this week
Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.05 Dev] [Vénus Noire]
Don't start thinking of yourself superior because of your porn taste, I think it's one of the most pathetic thing I've witnessed this week
- Feb 25, 2019
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- Oct 17, 2017
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I think, in the context of SoC. There's several tensions in the material that we're seeing. Most games don't run the ramut of fetishes as SoC, so they normally have more freedom to abide by certain genre tropes. Maledom M/f games are much more inclined to have the rule that "No male seen on screen can have sex visibly" and "No woman seen on screen can end up with someone besides the MC".
The effect of these is normally posative on teh face of it. It centers the sexual focus on the MC and it conveys a sense of power to not have other women who the MC don't fuck or don't permenantly end up with.
But, there's certain narrative tradeoffs that you make in terms of limiting the scope of the story. If it runs too long, the relationships start to trip over each other. It limits the other charachters that can be shown on screen, and it limits the kinds of storylines that can emerge. You cannot do an epic sex story in that context, because the potential scale of the world rapidly escalates the scale of a meaningful harem. Many of SoC's most compelling storylines could not exist in that kind of context.
I would know, btw. I worked on HaremVX, a game that tries to mix those maledom ahremgame tropes with an epic story, with results that often failed to deal with the tension between those two storytelling styles.
It also works best when focused exclusively on that audience. Femdom stories, stories aimed towards a more female audience, bisexual stories, stories about broader groups of people, all are diminished by following some of those storytelling ropes and conventions, that otherwise have merit in their intended place.
SoC is not a limited Maledom Harem type story. But, it's also not not a Maledom Harem story, either. The game purposefully can be played that way.
So what we see in audience reaction and in divisive opinion is that those who find that genre of story their prefrence (a totally reasonable question of taste) will react negatively to some of the elements of SoC.
But, at the same time, I empathize with some of the pushback against that position too. Not because it's wrong to love Maledom Harem stories. But, because a lot of what I find personally exciting about SoC IS the complex world and web of sexual relationships. So, when I see feedback asking to scale that back, I read it as asking for reduction in favor of a particular peron's fetishistic outlook. And when I see someone complaininag about people who just want "generic harem game" what I believe the part people object to is "generic" instead of "harem". I percieve Rivon's problem as being this "flattening"
But, I think we should also recognize that there's problems with that kneejerk reaction. I think there are ways to give more of what fans of Harem games want in the context of SoC without flattening the game. That rather then demonize that position, to try to use it to build a better game. And if in the process I can help people like Ori who want a game that allows more expression of their fantasies that's a good thing.
So, I think there's place for everyone at the table. But, I urge people like Rivon not to sucumb to a temptation to deny someone the desire for a legitimate craving. While I urge people like Ori to see why the framing of some of it can come across as asking to "Flatten" the game, and why that can be offensive.
The effect of these is normally posative on teh face of it. It centers the sexual focus on the MC and it conveys a sense of power to not have other women who the MC don't fuck or don't permenantly end up with.
But, there's certain narrative tradeoffs that you make in terms of limiting the scope of the story. If it runs too long, the relationships start to trip over each other. It limits the other charachters that can be shown on screen, and it limits the kinds of storylines that can emerge. You cannot do an epic sex story in that context, because the potential scale of the world rapidly escalates the scale of a meaningful harem. Many of SoC's most compelling storylines could not exist in that kind of context.
I would know, btw. I worked on HaremVX, a game that tries to mix those maledom ahremgame tropes with an epic story, with results that often failed to deal with the tension between those two storytelling styles.
It also works best when focused exclusively on that audience. Femdom stories, stories aimed towards a more female audience, bisexual stories, stories about broader groups of people, all are diminished by following some of those storytelling ropes and conventions, that otherwise have merit in their intended place.
SoC is not a limited Maledom Harem type story. But, it's also not not a Maledom Harem story, either. The game purposefully can be played that way.
So what we see in audience reaction and in divisive opinion is that those who find that genre of story their prefrence (a totally reasonable question of taste) will react negatively to some of the elements of SoC.
But, at the same time, I empathize with some of the pushback against that position too. Not because it's wrong to love Maledom Harem stories. But, because a lot of what I find personally exciting about SoC IS the complex world and web of sexual relationships. So, when I see feedback asking to scale that back, I read it as asking for reduction in favor of a particular peron's fetishistic outlook. And when I see someone complaininag about people who just want "generic harem game" what I believe the part people object to is "generic" instead of "harem". I percieve Rivon's problem as being this "flattening"
But, I think we should also recognize that there's problems with that kneejerk reaction. I think there are ways to give more of what fans of Harem games want in the context of SoC without flattening the game. That rather then demonize that position, to try to use it to build a better game. And if in the process I can help people like Ori who want a game that allows more expression of their fantasies that's a good thing.
So, I think there's place for everyone at the table. But, I urge people like Rivon not to sucumb to a temptation to deny someone the desire for a legitimate craving. While I urge people like Ori to see why the framing of some of it can come across as asking to "Flatten" the game, and why that can be offensive.
- Oct 17, 2017
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There will be a point in the game(s) where it will be possible to kill Andras and it will be before the ending.
We want the game to have several routes, and one will feature Rowan removing the twins. We think this route if vital and I've been doing some planning for it and introducing story seeds that will move us that direction.
However, this will not be happening for some time. The twins are a vital component of the story, and they cannot be simply dispatched. Should their fall occur, it ought to have real weight.
Also, I can make no promises about if keeping Jezera "to yourself" as a sollution is. While there are some cast members of the game who are "coded" as haremettes (Helayna, Alexia, Liurial, Etc), that is less the case with Jezera. This is not to say we won't allow such a story development (we genuinely have not decided). We also know there's a demand for it. But, we have to balance that demand against the needs of making a strong and cohesive story.
So, yes you will for sure be able to kill Andras. The rest, TBD.
- Sep 6, 2017
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I mean, *no one* in their right mind would ever take what I said as :
"I want Andras dead in every paths without you making any alternative, I want Alexia and Jezera to be exclusive to MC and that you do not make any path in which this is untrue"
That makes absolutely 0 sense to think that I have ever meant that.
The game already has so many paths and fetishes, it's obvious I wasn't asking you to remove any of them or make only ONE type of ending. Just that you *add* some.
I'm going to stop arguing against non-sense , it's pointless, this angered me too much already.
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I wonder, will Juliette have a role in SoC Act II? If Rowan takes her after the fall of Rastedel, will she become a member of his harem?
- Mar 8, 2019
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I know you were trying to sound impartial dev, but one user was expressing his desire for a fetish in your game, another user kinkshamed him and mocked him. Your answer so far to the ntr haters is to say "it's avoidable and you've got plenty of content to enjoy in this game." So why not do the same for maledom harem haters?
Anyway, back to the topic, I think a while back roughly 25% of the game was estimated ntr and 15% gay and furry. Is there an estimate on what percent of the game has maledom non-ntr focus?
Anyway, back to the topic, I think a while back roughly 25% of the game was estimated ntr and 15% gay and furry. Is there an estimate on what percent of the game has maledom non-ntr focus?
- Oct 17, 2017
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Juliet will potentially re-appear in some capacity in SoC 2. I have plans for her.
As with all things, there is an element of context. This thread is like 500 pages long, and if you want you can find pages and pages of arguments on the subject of Andras' role in the game. My wall of text above is less about lambasting any particular member of the discussion and more about finding the appropriate framing for considering the question.
Being charitable to Rivon, I am reasonably certain that they mostly just associated the comment with one of the prior flame wars. But, being charitable to Ori, I also understand how it can make such a response feel wildly disproptionate.
That said, there's a solid chance folks haven't spent a lot of time on this thread and it's endless debates (which is probably a mental health benefit). And assuming that Ori has missed the "Andras wars" of the last few years, then I'm profoundly sorry this is the conversation dynamic you walked in on. And I hope the answer I provided afterwards clearly answered the question.
Rest assured, I think Maledom Harem stuff is a cool thing to want. I'm the principle writer of that type of content (Helayna, Liurial, etc) and it definitly has a place in SoC.
tl;dr: The thread gets bombarded by angry 4chaners mad about non-harem content, so it makes people more defensive and rude then they ought to be.
Regarding extent. This is a hard question to answer.
The thing about Gay, Lesbian, NTR, and Furry is that they're kind of easy to quantify. There's not really a grey zone for most. And with NTR, we mostly just counted Alexia x Andras, Alexia X Jezera, and any other scenes on their routes (Alexia x Garforth for example)
With Maledom, there's WAY more grey area. Like, Liurial scenes and Helayna scenes with Rowan are all clearly in the category. But some of the others it's less clear. Is Delane maledom? It has harem undertones, but it's mostly vanilla or her lightly topping. Is Shaya maledom? He's in a "power position" of sorts in many of their scenes, but the power dynamic there is complex. Then there's Rowan x Alexia, which has a few out and out maledom scenes. But a lot of their material is vanilla or has complex dynamics.
Then we get to the harem category, which is another can of worms. Like, if you really want to think about it, isn't Draith a Rowan haremette? Certainly more so then Shaya or Cliohna.
If I'd have to give an eyeball to it, maybe 10% to 15% of the game's content are strict Mdom with Rowan on top. And then there's like 30% or 40% of the game's content that is somewhere in "it depends" zone. But, that's just eyeball.
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- Oct 17, 2017
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- Apr 26, 2021
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Honestly what I hope for is that there will be a way to get the twins as my subordinates. The way I read the story it seems that if Rowan is someone who turns to the worship of Kharos he could become some sort of a chosen. And the Twins, for all their faults, seem like they would recognize if someone actually is stronger than them and if their interests align it would be possible to keep them as your general and spymistress as long as they get something out of it.
- Aug 28, 2017
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not to dispute your point here, but lesbian and ntr aren't easy to quantify and have lots of grey zones.
for lesbian as example: in porn whenever in a mmf the guys do sexual things to each other, it is instantly considered also gay. while in a ffm the girls do sexual things to each other, it is considered maybe as sexy foreplay or how a ffm threesome is supposed to go, but not necessarily them also being lesbians. (yes, technically both cases are actually bi, but nobody advertises a sex scene as bi, only as one or the other)
a typical maledom harem might have some of the haremettes have sex with each other as well, which doesn't instill jealously or are seen as threat to the male, though it would if the sex were to be considered actual lesbianism. for example i think every maledom harem enthusiast liked the Liurial x Alexia scene even though Rowan wasn't present.
for ntr as example: it's meaning seem to differ greatly from person to person and is often confused with cuckold, hotwife or even swinging (i think the main problem by this is that usually the term gets used way to broadly and sometimes is not even fitting). it's own presentation differs on small aspects with big differences: is the "victim of adultery" unknowing? secretly knowing and unwilling? secretly knowing and willing? openly knowing and unwilling? openly knowing and willing? then there is also cases in which the "victim" is the actual manipulator of their partner, pushing them into adultery.
on some bizarre cases, some people even seem to consider something ntr when a character is in love with somebody who is not reciprocating the sentiment and goes into or has already a relationship to someone else.
another thing, games that cater around a male MC, but actively tries to not establish a harem, have sometimes the MC have sexual relations with women all around him and that is not considered ntr, even if some of the female cast are in love with the MC. for example i don't think most people consider the first Rowan x Jezera scene to be ntr worthy towards Alexia.
again i do not try to dispute your point, as i agree with you. i just want to remind you that we are dealing with opinions here, as the terms are not defined enough to be handled as facts.
Me returning to the thread be like
Its bizarre how you want to degrade the SoC story to simple harem
Also degrade my argument to simple kink shaming.
The funny part of it is that my fav girl is Helayna and she is part of the harem story line. So im not even on the other side of this bizarre "kink war" you apparently waging.
For me it is not about silly argument what kinks are better, its about demand to oversimplify story and sacrifice plot lines because some people think "ugh i hate these dude Andras, he bullies me, when can i kill him? "
Killing off Andres will remove entire ntr plotlines and deprive people who in to this stuff. Do you even though about that?
Andras is a very well written character this why he provokes emotions, that the hole point of it! This mean writers did a great job at creating a well defined villain, in this case a "bully type character". But he is more then that he is essential plot device to move story forward.
That's basicly my point. i dont wnna see writers being bulled in to favoring one particular kink and derail entire storylines that were build up for litarally years beacuse the vocal minority wants oversimplification.
Its bizarre how you want to degrade the SoC story to simple harem
Also degrade my argument to simple kink shaming.
The funny part of it is that my fav girl is Helayna and she is part of the harem story line. So im not even on the other side of this bizarre "kink war" you apparently waging.
For me it is not about silly argument what kinks are better, its about demand to oversimplify story and sacrifice plot lines because some people think "ugh i hate these dude Andras, he bullies me, when can i kill him? "
Killing off Andres will remove entire ntr plotlines and deprive people who in to this stuff. Do you even though about that?
Andras is a very well written character this why he provokes emotions, that the hole point of it! This mean writers did a great job at creating a well defined villain, in this case a "bully type character". But he is more then that he is essential plot device to move story forward.
That's basicly my point. i dont wnna see writers being bulled in to favoring one particular kink and derail entire storylines that were build up for litarally years beacuse the vocal minority wants oversimplification.
- Feb 25, 2019
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Since the subject of gay and lesbian content has been brought up just recently, as has avoiding certain kinds of content, I’m curious: is it currently possible to avoid heterosexual content? At least for our protagonists; the twins being who they are, they’ll take any partners they like and if that’s necessary to advance the plot, so be it. But would it be possible to have a playthrough where Rowan only has sex with men, or Alexia only has sex with women?
- Nov 27, 2020
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All I know is that Rowan is a little baby bitch boy. NTR gang rise up. It's one of the few games that has well-written NTR and that's something that makes it actually interesting (unlike the vast majority of harem games which are boring as shit). Alexia is hot as fuck and basically, she needs to get some non-human dick all up inside her. Liurial is also a babe, but there ought to be a scene where Liurial gets tentacle-fucked, idk, feed that hot little blonde piece to the Wompus or the Weemple or whatever the fuck the devs named the big, grey tentacle thing. Food for thought.
- Oct 17, 2017
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Not abosultely 100% I don't think? There's a few scenes off my head where there was some kind of coding problem that would prevent dodging. Also some of the mandatory scenes like the Sack have lots of M/f in them. But, we can't exactly cut them either.
That said, you can come pretty fucking close to 100% no straight run. Lots of the MF scenes in the game are avoidable (partially for gay players, partially for people who want to rmeain faithful).
- Feb 25, 2019
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I mean it’s a big wide world and we’re playing on the side of sex fiends, so I expect some het sex going on in general; but what about Rowan and Alexia, specifically? Can they avoid heterosexual content as things currently stand without avoiding sex entirely? I know a lot of people who are primarily interested in gay content aren’t going to be super into SoC in the first place, but it’d be nice to have the option.
- Oct 17, 2017
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I think so. There may be one or two scenes that fall in between the cracks. But, for the most part it's also skipable.
- Oct 17, 2017
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Just drop it. It looks like you read too much into Ori was saying. There;s no point in arguing against no one.
Liurial is mostly sexually focused on the maledom crowd. That's fine, because not every charachter or plot arc has to be for the same audience.
That said, one of my goals in the upcoming Liurial rework is to make her more intiresting as a person. So it should allow players more ways to engage with her outside of sexual contact. So the entire playerbase should be able to enjoy the new work being done to one extent or another.