Should Devs Hate F95?

[Staimh]

I personally prefer to buy completed games and would encourage any author that completes a games to make it available that way (does F95 offer authors of featured completed games a way to link to a point of sale, even if it's just a reference to Steam or Gog).
I am aware while playing games that great effort has gone into them and would try to be constructive even if criticising.
There are a large number of games I would never have heard of had I not browsed F95.
There are a few I now know I would never buy (obviously based on my own prejudices) but there are some I would never have heard of which if offered DRM free and playable off line on Gog for instance I would buy.
Like I expect a lot of forum members I have worked in IT so do understand that despite the industry being largely based on plagiarism the wanton piracy of projects is frustrating.
All of which I hope shows that I believe there are pros and cons to sites like F95 (my use of it tells you where my final judgement lands).

An interesting point on Piracy was Radiohead's album Kid A, which despite being massively downloaded from Napster before release still went on to surpass expectations in sales, Radiohead have (once free from A&M) continued to make pretty much all their work available for free download before release and still appear to have very healthy sales so piracy is definitely not a guaranteed death of sales.

 

[oshtoshashlyk]

I won't speak for anyone else, but I personally think the entire Patreon model is bullshit. If someone makes a game, then sells that game, assuming it's something I'm interested in, then I will buy your game; that's especially true of indie devs. What I won't do is pay your fucking rent while you make it. It's a bigger scam than buying Early Access games on Steam, because at least on Steam EA, you only have to pay for a game once while you wait for it to be finished and become less shit.

I couldn't agree more. "Early Access" games are a retarded gimmick in their own right (I made the mistake once of buying an Early Access game, NEVER AGAIN), but just giving money for months and months on end for a game which only promises to be completed eventually (and we're not even talking about it being "good" eventually) is even worse. This is especially true given how many games are left in development stage for YEARS, and in some cases even abandoned before completion. Again, similar to certain Early Access games on Steam which remain a buggy pile of shit for years before an actual decent product is available.

Also, the fact that Patreon takes a cut despite doing nothing more than being a middleman (one who actively polices content, to boot) is retarded. I'd rather devs just have a BTC wallet or something.

 

[DiddlerGames]

I personally prefer to buy completed games and would encourage any author that completes a games to make it available that way (does F95 offer authors of featured completed games a way to link to a point of sale, even if it's just a reference to Steam or Gog).
I am aware while playing games that great effort has gone into them and would try to be constructive even if criticising.
There are a large number of games I would never have heard of had I not browsed F95.
There are a few I now know I would never buy (obviously based on my own prejudices) but there are some I would never have heard of which if offered DRM free and playable off line on Gog for instance I would buy.
Like I expect a lot of forum members I have worked in IT so do understand that despite the industry being largely based on plagiarism the wanton piracy of projects is frustrating.
All of which I hope shows that I believe there are pros and cons to sites like F95 (my use of it tells you where my final judgement lands).

An interesting point on Piracy was Radiohead's album Kid A, which despite being massively downloaded from Napster before release still went on to surpass expectations in sales, Radiohead have (once free from A&M) continued to make pretty much all their work available for free download before release and still appear to have very healthy sales so piracy is definitely not a guaranteed death of sales.

There have been many studies that show that piracy actually benefits the creators of stuff. I think the DRM companies like ubisoft use is more of a detriment to their sales than actual piracy. I refuse to buy their stuff if it has always online DRM. Has nothing to do with the fact their quality has been meh for a decade, because meh games can be fun.

Also, as for buying a game, you can just pirate it from F95 and do a 1 time donation to the devs on their patreon or whatever. Possibly even just contact them and offer to paypal them a couple bucks.

 

[Alboe Interactive]

I first saw a Adult Visual Novel on a Youtube reaction video. Intrigued, I started off over at Fap-Nation before I found F95. Before then I didn't even know the entire genre of Adult Visual Novels existed. An individual erotic game's Patreon page might as well be a golf ball floating in space for how visible it is to the wider part of the internet. Even Reddit doesn't have much activity or subreddits about this genre.

Perusing this site was a huge benefit to me when I started making my own VN's. It showed me the reality of what I was stepping into. The nanosecond something is released on the internet, there is no stopping anyone who's interested from getting it for free. I refused to do exclusive unlocks or codes because I knew it wouldn't work, DRM never does. Once digital content is sitting on someone's PC they have infinite time to crack it. In this day and age, creators have to offer something that can't be pirated.

That's what I am doing by offering polls. The first one, patrons could pick the MC's outfit for a date. The next poll, they named a character. I'm eventually going to offer commissions for the highest tier so a fan can get their very own custom fan-art made by the developer themselves.

In this fashion, fans can interact in a way that also makes them feel like part of the project, because in a small way they are. Audience participation is immune to pirates because there is nothing to take. It's all about giving their opinion, and the only way to give it is to pay. And even then, if they're an unconscionable dick about it, they'll get the boot regardless how much they paid.

As for the downsides of F95, I will say the amount of trolls, including a few other game developers, is worrisome. I had reported a 1 star review because the poster didn't like how my VN talked consent with the backdrop of MC dealing with past sexual violence or the conversation about pronouns which was a preface for meeting gender fluid characters. Okay that's fine, my content definitely isn't for everyone. But 1 star is for buggy, low-effort stuff. Thankfully, a mod removed it, but my niche VN still only has 3 ratings, another troll could decide to tank the rating at a whim.

Another recent example is I posted about my upcoming lesbian only VN. Look at that title, it literally says "(Lesbian Only)". What was the first comment? Some troll telling me the MC should have a boyfriend. Yes, the lesbian MC who is married to a woman should get a boyfriend. Reported and removed.

I have seen other games with warnings that comments about certain things will be removed. I have that same warning up now too. It still astounds me that many users here couldn't fundamentally handle a first person perspective with a female/futanari protagonist. Also, a big one is male love interests, holy shit. I won't go into that here, but like the rest of the internet, this site still skews heavily to certain preferences. Which is fine, but the outcry and inundations of suggestions to change were absurd. I still remember one comment where someone said they won't play because they can't see all of the MC's face in a POV VN. Fine then, don't play the free game, what-the-fuck-ever.

I know thicker skin is required for any internet based discussion, but interacting with users here can be tiresome. I put a great deal of effort into proper tagging and in-game foreshadowing, only to be met with ridiculous comments. Which only encourages me to want to stop posting here and stick to my patrons who are excited for each post I put out. However, there is a silver lining. I can post more freely here than on Patreon about certain topics so there is that.

 

[Laikhent]

I couldn't agree more. "Early Access" games are a retarded gimmick in their own right (I made the mistake once of buying an Early Access game, NEVER AGAIN), but just giving money for months and months on end for a game which only promises to be completed eventually (and we're not even talking about it being "good" eventually) is even worse. This is especially true given how many games are left in development stage for YEARS, and in some cases even abandoned before completion. Again, similar to certain Early Access games on Steam which remain a buggy pile of shit for years before an actual decent product is available.

Also, the fact that Patreon takes a cut despite doing nothing more than being a middleman (one who actively polices content, to boot) is retarded. I'd rather devs just have a BTC wallet or something.

Without people supporting the creators through patreon, many games that you enjoy would never exist.
Considering that you would not be able to play most of these games anymore, would you end systems like patreon if you could?

 

[kraoro]

Without people supporting the creators through patreon, many games that you enjoy would never exist.

That's patently bullshit. Indie game development, even niche indie game development like adult games, existed long before systems like Patreon and Kickstarter. I've seen people liken Patreon to a tip jar, but we all know full well that isn't what this is, this is asking people to pay your bills for you, and without the financial or contractual obligations to finish the project that a system like Kickstarter had baked into it. So if Patreon is like a "tip jar," then it's a tip jar where you're obligated to pay even when you don't get coffee. Some creators are hiding content behind a paywall of $100 a month. A MONTH. For a half baked tech demo that who knows how long it'll take to get finished, if it even gets finished at all. And it isn't even an investment, because there's no guarantee of a finished product, or any chance whatsoever of getting a return of your investment.

 

[peterppp]

That's patently bullshit. Indie game development, even niche indie game development like adult games, existed long before systems like Patreon and Kickstarter. I've seen people liken Patreon to a tip jar, but we all know full well that isn't what this is, this is asking people to pay your bills for you, and without the financial or contractual obligations to finish the project that a system like Kickstarter had baked into it. So if Patreon is like a "tip jar," then it's a tip jar where you're obligated to pay even when you don't get coffee. Some creators are hiding content behind a paywall of $100 a month. A MONTH. For a half baked tech demo that who knows how long it'll take to get finished, if it even gets finished at all. And it isn't even an investment, because there's no guarantee of a finished product, or any chance whatsoever of getting a return of your investment.

Lol, get a clue. No one with even minimal insight into game development would think that all the games on this site would be made and worked on without the financial support from Patreon. Hell, you just need minimal insight in how money is a motivator to understand that.

You don't like the Patreon model. Ok, then keep pirating your fav games and let others support the games you play. No one wants to hear a crybaby complain that devs get money for their work when that crybaby doesn't contribute anything. Except other crybabies.

 

[Laikhent]

So if Patreon is like a "tip jar," then it's a tip jar where you're obligated to pay even when you don't get coffee.

Why do you say things that you know aren't true? Nobody is obligated to pay anything. Only those that like the dev's work and want to support him will do it.

Indie game development, even niche indie game development like adult games, existed long before systems like Patreon and Kickstarter.

I didn't say all porn games you play would not exist. I said mostly (probably the overwhelming majority).
Most porn games that existed before systems like patreon were from Japan. There were some flash games too, but in general, they cannot compare in quality with some of our currently available porn games.

In the past, you would have to lose time searching around the internet to find a translated porn game to play. Today there are so many porn games that you can choose to play only the ones that interest you most

Do you know the main reason that happens? If you try to make a game yourself you will know why. It takes a immense amount of time and effort to finish a game, and you don't even know if it would sell well at the end. Without financial support, woudn't you rather use that time and energy on something else? You need to eat and pay your rent you know. Many times you also need to buy assets for your game.

Today, even with patreon, the overwhelming majority of indie games are a financial failure.

 

[dokancreations]

As a developer myself and a person who had my version leaked here, I can say the following as my conclusions so far. (I am pretty new myself)

-F95 is a great website. It is the best spot to find games. I got a lot of exposure here which is why I donated a portion of my earnings here. (It's not much but it's honest work)

- In the beginning I had a bigger Paywall, I thought this was going to bring more people in but instead, I think it overall creates more of a bad image than does good.

I am now giving a better approach to things by keeping a much smaller version kept behind the Patreon version, just a reward for those few loyal people that will support you. Even if you make the best game there is, you will probably get 1%-5% (Trust me no way you get over 1%) of people to support you. Why? People like free stuff.

People who pirate stuff most of the time are not used to paying for them, that's why they won't really pay for it either way.

If you keep a big paywall you will attract some people that are going to just test the game once, and then most likely leave. Sure it's a bit of help, but If you ask me.. I will take any day my few loyal people that are there for the long-run than those who just come and go just to see a few scenes, if anything I don't want to attract those kind of players.

That's just my opinion though and preference, if you want a piece of good advice here's it:
Find a good balance between all, and keep working hard on your game.

 

[anne O'nymous]

That's patently bullshit. Indie game development, even niche indie game development like adult games, existed long before systems like Patreon and Kickstarter.

If you want to put things in perspective of their history, you need to do it fully, and not just keep half of the reality.

Yes, niche indie game development existed before Patreon and Kickstarter. And at this time, those games had the same quality than their business model ; one can't really compare a 5 minutes storyless 2D puppets Flash game with a 10+ hours 3D VN. There were sometime better quality, but they weren't made by indie developers, like most of the actual production of the scene, but by indie studios with treasury and payed people working on the project ; what is far to the indie scene relying on Patreon as business model.

I've seen people liken Patreon to a tip jar, but we all know full well that isn't what this is, this is asking people to pay your bills for you, and without the financial or contractual obligations to finish the project that a system like Kickstarter had baked into it.

Yes, the money one get with Patreon is used to the bills, it's true... Bills that start around $1000 and can goes up to $10.000 and more, depending of the investment that you had to put on your game.
Because it's not free to make a VN, it cost you money to buy the software you'll need, to buy the models (for 3D games), to replace the computers you'll blow up during the process, to pay the electricity bill that wouldn't be so high without this stupid idea you had to make a game.
But the question was never to pay for the game and those expenses. The question have always be to be thankful for the entertainment provided. There's probably some people who pledge on Patreon as a, "your game worth those few bucks" approach, but most do it as a, "your investment worth those few bucks", what is different ; you don't pay the game, you help the author pursue his passion.

So if Patreon is like a "tip jar," then it's a tip jar where you're obligated to pay even when you don't get coffee.

I totally agree. Those guys who come to your home every month and use violence to ensure that you haven't cancelled your pledge are really the worse part of the Patreon business model...

Wait, what am I saying ? There's absolutely nothing preventing you to stop your pledge if you think that you've gave enough, or that the author don't deserve it anymore.

 

[InCompleteController]

I don't see why devs should worry about F95, considering the games that make it onto this site. They all seem like they will benefit more from any publicity the site provides more than any financial losses from piracy.

I'm especially not a fan of the thought of adding DRM to the game as a supposed solution. DRM only delays when pirates will have access to your game. It makes some sense when talking about AAA games whose success is measured in their week 1 sales and yet companies like CDPR seem contradict the notion that DRM increases sales numbers.

Which brings me to the current Patreon debate. Sure, as a patron you don't have much say in how the development of a game goes, so don't pay more than what you think the experience was worth.
Inversely, if you enjoyed a game, why not encourage the dev to make more by throwing some money their way? Sure, some devs would continue to develop their hobby project regardless of any financial gain, but it sure is a lot easier to keep a project alive if it can pay for itself.

 

[Alt2021]

I have a question about the opposite perspective: rather than "how to benefit from f95", how to stop benefitting from f95. I was thinking about releasing something here. But then I thought, what if at some point I don't want it to be available anymore? For whatever reason.

I know that once you put something on the web, it's out there. But try looking for something you had on a website from more than 5 years ago. Chances are that it is gone for good. So the question is, if I don't want a game to "haunt" f95 as an abandoned game years later, will I be able to remove it or not?

I understand the archival perspective, but surely the will of the dev should have the precedence ...?

 

[Droid Productions]

I understand the archival perspective, but surely the will of the dev should have the precedence ...?

It's a pirate site. There's no "will of the dev", or all the devs would just "will" people to not pirate it (or at least not pirate it until 2 weeks after the patreon release).

We're ultimately visitors here; it's by far the most welcoming place for porn game devs on the net, but don't mistake that as this being some kind of steam-replacement; you are *not* the audience. The users are. If you start messing with your game's thread, you will lose control over it.

 

[Adabelitoo]

That's patently bullshit. Indie game development, even niche indie game development like adult games, existed long before systems like Patreon and Kickstarter. I've seen people liken Patreon to a tip jar, but we all know full well that isn't what this is, this is asking people to pay your bills for you, and without the financial or contractual obligations to finish the project that a system like Kickstarter had baked into it. So if Patreon is like a "tip jar," then it's a tip jar where you're obligated to pay even when you don't get coffee. Some creators are hiding content behind a paywall of $100 a month. A MONTH. For a half baked tech demo that who knows how long it'll take to get finished, if it even gets finished at all. And it isn't even an investment, because there's no guarantee of a finished product, or any chance whatsoever of getting a return of your investment.

I think you could use a little lesson of history. Patronage started waaay before videogames in general. It goes back to the times where kings where the shit everywhere and it has its origins as a way to encourage artists to keep doing their thing. Let's talk about painters.

Back them, a painter would do what he does best, which is painting of course, but he had a problem because painting doesn't pay the bills, so he had to choose between doing what he loved and did best (paiting) or doing something "usefull" to pay the bills (working). That's when wealthy people started what we know as patronage and supporting painters, because that wealthy person thought that what the painter do was worth something, so they started supporting him with money so the painter could spend more time painting than working, and in return the painter would usually give a portrait to his patrons.

So yes, Patreon is about paying your bills if you're lucky/good enough to have the chance. Patron is about spending less time working to pay your bills and spend more time doing what you like and others think it's worth something. Patron is not a pay to play platform, and it's definietly not an investment platform to except a return of your investment.

 

[telotelo]

fun fact:

• some of recently profile with added dev badge started mingling around here probably with their own past pirating activity, if people didn't exclude themself from basic instinct of economic reality (always look for the cheapest alternative possibly available) this bait to heated discussion will never occur
• service-based is always about subjectivity as such measuring it objectively is fallacy, some of dev still think they sell a product and its hard to tell them otherwise making this thread is possible to exist
• abundance (low-entry to produce some shit) and disruption (overall average disappointing quality) on producing side added with entitlement (using a product / service always mean to become a consumer that include the so-called consumer right) and ideal-expectation (most have none to little or refuse to refer to their own user experience) on consuming side is what makes the clash of will always bound to happen, so little have overcome them with acceptable compromise nevermind an accord
• simple risk-opportunity calculation and business mind that missing from some of the startup or indie developer that usually come late and form prejudice toward the term 'piracy' based on regret and blind hatred added with corporate perspective about the term itself

just to add with personal experience for years i already abandon steam and swith my auto-curation to gog because of drm and ea issue. when you sell a game substantially you don't sell a product you provide service. The review of late and lamented era of retail game is always about is this game is worth about its price not because their physical product appearance but the hours of joy they provide. so if some dev hate this site fuck them, they are net loss anyway not to oversight obvious thing. if its affect you emotionally, people much willing to spend. hell, almost quarter of my paycheck know that too.

another fun fact:

• nds is handheld console with the most popular and best sales worldwide and you know what follow that honor, the most pirated console

god, this virus made me rant on pornographic pirate site about some insignificant thing that may never happened to me, what a good sign to start a new year

 

[oshtoshashlyk]

Without people supporting the creators through patreon, many games that you enjoy would never exist.
Considering that you would not be able to play most of these games anymore, would you end systems like patreon if you could?

This is the problem: like so many others, you're assuming that the only possible financially viable model is via Patreon. In fact, I'm completely baffled as to why so many people (not just here, but on the Western internet in general) fellate that site so much, when all it does is take a cut to act as a middleman (and then polices content lul). But anyway, that's a topic for another day.

The main point is that throwing money (in some cases, completely ridiculous sums of money) at a completely half-assed product which progresses at a rate of 1 low-quality koikatsu screenshot per month, only for it to be abandoned 2 years later (or for it to be released as a game that is simply not at all good) is a nonsensical model for many of us. Obviously some people don't mind, and all the power to them I suppose, but acting like it's reasonable to expect everyone to just bandwagon onto that business model is ludicrous. But then again, given how many people buy Apple products, maybe I'm just giving too much credit to the average consumer.

For me personally, I prefer having an actual completed product that I can try and then buy if it's to my liking. If development costs are too prohibitive for this to be possible, then there should at least be substantial progress, enough so that it becomes very likely that that game will be: 1) good, and 2) completed in a reasonable timespan. And in either case, I prefer having my money go to the actual dev, not to the people who run Patreon.

 

[Droid Productions]

And in either case, I prefer having my money go to the actual dev, not to the people who run Patreon.

Patreon's cut is actually far more reasonable than most other middlemen in the industry (Steam, for example, takes 30%. If you're hit with US withholding tax on royalty derived revenue, that's another 30%). Patreon, because it's not classified as royalty derived revenue, avoid that. At 8%, it's a significantly lower overhead. You could of course set up to sell directly from your own website, but financially that's not working out great for most people (and the most popular options, like Paypal, will police your content for you).

 

[Laikhent]

This is the problem: like so many others, you're assuming that the only possible financially viable model is via Patreon.

I know that there are other models. What I'm saying is: no patreon like model = overwhelming less amount of porn games for you to play. Maybe you don't want to believe that because you don't like patreon, but it's a fact that there was an explosion of new adult games after systems like patreon emerged.

I agree that, like you said, there are ppl who abuse it and delay the game development on purpose. But do you think it's reasonable to call the whole model bullshit and wish for the system to end because of them?

 

[Cokane0]

2) completed in a reasonable timespan. And in either case, I prefer having my money go to the actual dev, not to the people who run Patreon.

Have you ever considered that some people don't want to see a completed game?
For example, if harem hotel ever actually ends It's gonna suck for me. Not because the ending will be bad. Just that I always am going to want new content with these characters that I've come to love. Like a TV show that always ends up getting another season.

Runey could have ended it half a dozen times, is a huge game. Then moved on to making another game for his patreons. That I'm sure I would enjoy very much. But I don't want that personally. I have no desire to see an ending to HH anytime soon.

Patreon's cut is actually far more reasonable than most other middlemen in the industry (Steam, for example, takes 30%. If you're hit with US withholding tax on royalty derived revenue, that's another 30%). Patreon, because it's not classified as royalty derived revenue, avoid that. At 8%, it's a significantly lower overhead. You could of course set up to sell directly from your own website, but financially that's not working out great for most people (and the most popular options, like Paypal, will police your content for you).

Just build your own payment processor bro.

 

[peterppp]

This is the problem: like so many others, you're assuming that the only possible financially viable model is via Patreon. In fact, I'm completely baffled as to why so many people (not just here, but on the Western internet in general) fellate that site so much, when all it does is take a cut to act as a middleman (and then polices content lul). But anyway, that's a topic for another day.

The main point is that throwing money (in some cases, completely ridiculous sums of money) at a completely half-assed product which progresses at a rate of 1 low-quality koikatsu screenshot per month, only for it to be abandoned 2 years later (or for it to be released as a game that is simply not at all good) is a nonsensical model for many of us. Obviously some people don't mind, and all the power to them I suppose, but acting like it's reasonable to expect everyone to just bandwagon onto that business model is ludicrous. But then again, given how many people buy Apple products, maybe I'm just giving too much credit to the average consumer.

For me personally, I prefer having an actual completed product that I can try and then buy if it's to my liking. If development costs are too prohibitive for this to be possible, then there should at least be substantial progress, enough so that it becomes very likely that that game will be: 1) good, and 2) completed in a reasonable timespan.

Tell the devs how they should finance their development instead of Patreon then. But I don't think you can come up with anything new and revolutionizing they haven't already heard and still decided Patreon is the best model currently.

The Patreon model works because of the supporters that make it work and apparently are fine with it. If you don't like it, then pirate the game and stop whining. And your final points come off as entitled and out of tune with reality (good is subjective). Completion isn't even the goal for many of the games, but adding more content for the fans to enjoy.