VN HTML SlutEd [v0.15] [Shark in a Hat]

[deluges]

Blackmail and coercion aren't inherently lazy. Think about it for just a moment and you'll quickly come to realize that they bring their own set of complications and challenges. At least if they are done well. As a fan of this sort of thing, nothing puts me off faster than when it doesn't make sense, like when there's simply no good reason for the MC to have not gone straight to the police or some other authority figure. The author does have to sell that fear of the consequences of doing so or there's no weight to it and it comes off as forced (and not the good kind of forced for these games). That is not satisfying for those of us who are into blackmail/coercion. I think Shark has done a pretty solid job here.


While that's not something I would likely care to play (with certain other tags maybe, but if it's too vanilla I'm not interested), I agree with you completely. I think there's a lot of room for games with a more proactive female MC, from a happy, sex loving woman (I think the game "In Her Own Hands"(?) is a decent example of that), to a conniving, even femme fatale style of character who weaponizes her sexuality.

Someone just has to write it.

The problem becomes when over 50% of female protag corruption games feature blackmail as a plot device. That is absolutely lazy. Again, I'm not laying that on shark with this game as you can easily avoid that. Japanese games tend to lean far too heavily on this trope.

It seems either feast or famine. Either your female protag is chaste and needs to be blackmailed into sexy times or she's already sexual so the corruption is pretty stupid and pointless. Our Red String does a great job of having a sexual female protag, she doesn't need to be coerced into sexy time, but you can choose whether she's committed to a specific individual or just wants to bang anyone. That is a very rare feat for a dev to pull off convincingly.

 

[deluges]

Problem is 99.99% of completed games available here are Japanese H-RPGMs and 99.99% of those are carbon copies of the same trope of virgin schoolgirl at day / magical girl at night who walks into a forest full of goblins one time too many.

The other projects availailble are monthly subscription based half-baked products whereby it's in their devs' best interest to never bring the story to conclusion, instead prolong the development and tease the patrons out of their monies by introducing as many subplots, fetishes and characters as possible, none of which are to be completed or truly original.

From what I've seen so far in SlutEd, and I hope I'm not wrong, it's one of those rare cases of a game which is intended to be finished within forseeable future,with a finite main storyline and - upon completion thereof - the option to free-roam the 'realm' or add new events as DLC.

You're not wrong. Japanese games tend to be the ones that are actually completed... and yes, they tend to be damn near identical copies of the same game (though broader than what you chose to exemplify). Female protag corruption games are usually extremely formulaic.

 

[LTD]

The problem becomes when over 50% of female protag corruption games feature blackmail as a plot device. That is absolutely lazy. Again, I'm not laying that on shark with this game as you can easily avoid that. Japanese games tend to lean far too heavily on this trope.

Maybe we're getting too into the weeds here, but I don't think if you do something that lots of other people do, story wise, that that's "lazy" on it's face. It might be trite, but that's often down to the details, and similarly the execution of whatever device or even trope is where laziness will or will not be found. I'm not even sure how you'd avoid using something like blackmail as a device if the story you want to tell is one there the protagonist is not, at least not at the start, a willing participant. That only other option is some other coercive element, like threats of violence/death.

We're talking about two fundamentally different setups here. The story of a girl discovering her sexuality organically and going on a happy romp as she becomes more comfortable in her own skin, eventually embracing being a slut is not the same story as that of a woman who has little choice in the matter. In the latter case, what game do you have if she can go to the cops and shut the blackmailer down? I suppose a game could continue from there and loop back to the first setup, but not if the author doesn't want to write that. Presuming the author does want to write a game were the MC is unwillingly forced down a path of corruption or even sexual slavery, what other device would you propose the author use other than blackmail or some other kind of coercion? Serious question. I'm wracking my brain and I can't think of anything.

 

[madchef]

I think there's a lot of room for games with a more proactive female MC, from a happy, sex loving woman (I think the game "In Her Own Hands"(?) is a decent example of that)

Had to try this one yesterday and the tone and setup is quite up my alley, with a girl choosing her own lewd destiny, with no one forcing her into stuff. But the grindfest is just epic. Plus some silly conflation of loose sex mores with criminal proclivities. Too much pegging porn watched and she's willing to shoplift. I now don't know if she has to do some shoplifting and get caught stealing on camera in order to discover web-camming?

I'm not even sure how you'd avoid using something like blackmail as a device if the story you want to tell is one there the protagonist is not, at least not at the start, a willing participant. That only other option is some other coercive element, like threats of violence/death.

We're talking about two fundamentally different setups here...

Yes, we are. We're just complaining about too few female protag games having a sex-positive, consensual narrative, which does not have to mean 'vanilla'. If I look back at most of my past sexual relations, they did not start with a 'willing participant'. They started with relative strangers, who at the very best might have been giving off a certain sexy, inviting vibes, but these were vague enough that I might have just as well been mistaken. And then it progressed from there, a raunchy joke here and there, a party with a drink or two, an evening movie, a weekend city break in Amsterdam with a visit to Van Gogh Museum and then the Torture Museum (It's only 20 minutes walk from here, why don't we go and check it out?') and... I am sure that was the case with most of other people. Why couldn't we have more games full of kinky sex but devoid of threats and violence? And there would still be room for corruption there, which does not have to mean molestation, blackmail or any forms of coercion, but perverted seduction leading to broadening of sexual horizons... which will not necessarily have to end up in the female heroine becoming a fucked out heroin addict. There's this game called 'Runaway Girl and Me', which while played from a male protag perspective, features a female main NPC, who is this rich daddy's girl, initially sexually naïve (yes, a virgin, as them Japanese game makers insist), but ending up as an amateur porn queen - no sharing/pimping out/blackmail/hypnosis along the way - and the MC's loving wife.

 

[deluges]

Maybe we're getting too into the weeds here, but I don't think if you do something that lots of other people do, story wise, that that's "lazy" on it's face. It might be trite, but that's often down to the details, and similarly the execution of whatever device or even trope is where laziness will or will not be found. I'm not even sure how you'd avoid using something like blackmail as a device if the story you want to tell is one there the protagonist is not, at least not at the start, a willing participant. That only other option is some other coercive element, like threats of violence/death.

We're talking about two fundamentally different setups here. The story of a girl discovering her sexuality organically and going on a happy romp as she becomes more comfortable in her own skin, eventually embracing being a slut is not the same story as that of a woman who has little choice in the matter. In the latter case, what game do you have if she can go to the cops and shut the blackmailer down? I suppose a game could continue from there and loop back to the first setup, but not if the author doesn't want to write that. Presuming the author does want to write a game were the MC is unwillingly forced down a path of corruption or even sexual slavery, what other device would you propose the author use other than blackmail or some other kind of coercion? Serious question. I'm wracking my brain and I can't think of anything.

Relationships, for a starter. Some people are bad influences. Guilt would be another one. Situations are another (i.e. someone ends up doing something that they normally wouldn't do due to whatever, lack of sobriety etc. There's three and it took less than three minutes to think of.

 

[LTD]

Had to try this one yesterday and the tone and setup is quite up my alley, with a girl choosing her own lewd destiny, with no one forcing her into stuff. But the grindfest is just epic. Plus some silly conflation of loose sex mores with criminal proclivities. Too much pegging porn watched and she's willing to shoplift. I now don't know if she has to do some shoplifting and get caught stealing on camera in order to discover web-camming?

Yeah, I haven't played that one a in a few releases for that grind you mention. It does have some stuff for me in the exhibitionism and BDSM parts, but not enough to really hold my interest. I do think it could be a solid game if they could address that grind, mind you, but maybe not to my tastes, ultimately.

Yes, we are. We're just complaining about too few female protag games having a sex-positive, consensual narrative, which does not have to mean 'vanilla'. If I look back at most of my past sexual relations, they did not start with a 'willing participant'. They started with relative strangers, who at the very best might have been giving off a certain sexy, inviting vibes, but these were vague enough that I might have just as well been mistaken. And then it progressed from there, a raunchy joke here and there, a party with a drink or two, an evening movie, a weekend city break in Amsterdam with a visit to Van Gogh Museum and then the Torture Museum (It's only 20 minutes walk from here, why don't we go and check it out?') and... I am sure that was the case with most of other people. Why couldn't we have more games full of kinky sex but devoid of threats and violence? And there would still be room for corruption there, which does not have to mean molestation, blackmail or any forms of coercion, but perverted seduction leading to broadening of sexual horizons... which will not necessarily have to end up in the female heroine becoming a fucked out heroin addict. There's this game called 'Runaway Girl and Me', which while played from a male protag perspective, features a female main NPC, who is this rich daddy's girl, initially sexually naïve (yes, a virgin, as them Japanese game makers insist), but ending up as an amateur porn queen - no sharing/pimping out/blackmail/hypnosis along the way - and the MC's loving wife.

Isn't that beyond the scope of this game, though? This game, any game, is what it is because the author wants to make a specific game. For example, they might chose to go with the theme of blackmail because they want to tell a story about an unwilling protagonist pushed down a path of corruption because that's what turns them on. What good does it do to complain in the discussion thread of that game that you don't like blackmail themes, or you wish there were more games with a willing MC? It's one thing to ask, "Are you planning to have a route where the MC is more willing and enthusiastic?", and another to complain about the game not being what you want it to be.

Relationships, for a starter. Some people are bad influences. Guilt would be another one. Situations are another (i.e. someone ends up doing something that they normally wouldn't do due to whatever, lack of sobriety etc. There's three and it took less than three minutes to think of.

Right. What you are both describing is something fundamentally different from the less-than-consensual fantasy of this sort of game (at least at the start) and the genre of blackmail/coercion in general. This shows in the same reason, that I mentioned above, for when a blackmail theme can often fail: why doesn't the MC simply leave? The central tenet behind any forced corruption is there is some contrivance for why the MC cannot simply walk away, at least not without major life altering (even ending) consequences. That it is forced is the spice that people like me like. I want that fantasy of having no control/being out of control in a very specific way; that's the part that's really exciting for me.

You'll get no argument from me that you can do corruption themes, likewise slutification/bimboification, with a willing and even an enthusiastic protagonist. That's a fantasy of being in control, however, so you can see what I mean when I say it's a fundamental difference. These are mutually exclusive concepts. Either MC is in control, or she is not (see below).

So someone is a bad influence? Why doesn't the MC leave then? If she chooses to stay, she made that choice. That's a fine thing to do in your story or game, but it's clearly not the same thing as her having her choices limited by some kind of ultimatum. If this "bad influence" does issue an ultimatum in hopes of getting the MC's compliance, that's a form of coercion, so we're back to what you don't want.

Guilt has a similar trap. She can choose her path in order to assuage her own guilt, which is a perfectly fine story choice (in particular I can see this adding some good tension into a romantic story), but fundamentally different from one wherein her guilt is being leveraged by someone else in order to coerce the MC. The latter would probably be some kind of blackmail scenario. She makes the choice, or someone else makes it for her, the latter bringing us back to what you don't want.

That altered state idea has the most promise, but quickly runs into similar blocks. It's fine if you want to use a night of drunken debauchery as a catalyst in the protagonist's journey of self discovery, but what if the MC(/player) doesn't wish to continue this path? It's either an end screen or the player does decide to keep following the slut route, right? That is the point of the game, after all, so whenever the MC opts out of the path of corruption, game is done. Or you have to have some way to coerce her into staying on that path...

To sum up, this isn't about blackmail or bad influences or any of that. Those all come later than the core concept of the story, that decision about whether or not this story, at least at the start, is about a willing protagonist or an unwilling one; the crux of it all is control. Either the MC has it, or she doesn't. Now, you can surely have a story where that control weaves in and out, like how SlutED starts and how Emily can choose to embrace her inner slut to varying degrees, but aside for some very specific circumstances (e.g. BDSM and safewords) you can't have both at once, and therefore a story cannot start in both at the same time, either.

 

[madchef]

That it is forced is the spice that people like me like. I want that fantasy of having no control/being out of control in a very specific way; that's the part that's really exciting for me.

You'll get no argument from me that you can do corruption themes, likewise slutification/bimboification, with a willing and even an enthusiastic protagonist. That's a fantasy of being in control, however, so you can see what I mean when I say it's a fundamental difference. These are mutually exclusive concepts. Either MC is in control, or she is not

It's fairly obvious that we have gone of 'SlutEd' topic by discussing disproportionate prevalance of non-cons, dubious consent in the totality of games featuring female protags. However, I would like to point out that you are not correct by saing you either must be in control or not. The paradox of non-consensual fantasy when a person fantasies about being on the receiving end of a non-cons encounter is that they are in control of the fantasy itself and can safely stop fantasising at any given moment. And that is what is really exciting in it: getting violated, but only in your head and thus on your terms. And similarily that's how power exchange play works in real life, the receiving party willingly submits, which is voluntarily gives up control within accepted limits for the duration of play. If these limits are purposefully breached, it's not fun anymore. The excitement comes from balancing the thin line separating control and lack thereof. Like with bungee jumping: scary as he'll and once you dive there's not much you can do, but people decide to jump firmly believing the bungee rope will not let them hit the ground. The slim possibility of a deadly accident adds to the excitement, but the actual deadly accident absolutely does not, at least not to a sane person.

If you ask me, the laziness mentioned earlier comes from the fact that a lot of devs just come up with well tried tropes of rape/molestation/blackmail fantasies as the main sexually corrupting agents, while what they could do is think of more realistic scenarios involving female protags, allowing themselves to be seduced by perverted partners with extremely kinky ideas, but no underhanded or violent tactics. Whatever happened to that age old BDSM motto: 'safe, sane, consensual'? You have glimpses of that in 'SlutEd', where for example Emily replies to the cafe manager 'it was my choice' or 'yes to both!' when he asks her if she'd be interested in more advanced sessions for more money. Come to think of it, it is mostly Ben who can become a real pain the ass if you don't cooperate. I don't know, I might be sick in the head but nothing excites me more than a woman's vocal affirmative excitement. And nothing turns me off more than her loud and clear 'no'.

 

[lewdpirate]

I think my main point is, that games are a way of escaping the “unhandy” constraints of reality, I do not want to play something that happens in real life, I want to suspend my disbelief and let myself drift into the fantasy, I can always leave the computer, but I do not necessarily want the character I am playing to be safe, whether I am playing slut-ed or mass effect.

I want the imagined stakes to be real for the character I am immersing myself into. But I think that is the last I will say on the topic, since it is moving pretty far away from slut-ed as a topic

 

[madchef]

I want the imagined stakes to be real for the character I am immersing myself into. But I think that is the last I will say on the topic, since it is moving pretty far away from slut-ed as a topic

Fair enough... provided you're really imagining yourself as a female protag when playing a female MC game. Which is seldom the case. Most of these games are played by straight cis dudes, who do not immerse themselves into a female mind and body at any point of the playthrough. Basically, the player acts like a director/editor of a porn movie, leading the female actress from one scene to another. The arousal comes from purely pornographic voyeuristic observation, which sometimes has an added bonus of allowing some degree of control of the scene: choosing type of sex, participants, viewing angle, etc. and most of the time - wardrobe. (which makes me wonder if the sex scenes in SlutED are going to have proper clothing effects added) But that's about it. The male player is not really thinking what it would feel like to wear a miniskirt to school, which is then cut to reveal more by some wiseguy, who then decides no more underwear at school for you or else..., to be made to undress in public, or be penetrated without consent by multiple cocks or impregnated by some rando. If anything, he may be secretly wishing he was one of those penetrating random dicks, or the wiseguy who doesn't take no for an answer. That is why some competitive players have a problem with games where all sex scenes are game over rapes, triggered only when loosing. And that is also why some male players have a problem being a director or viewer of a non-cons porn movie. They're just unable to eroticize the other person's genuine distress, even if only imagined.

Now, back to 'SlutED'...

 

[waxing carnauba]

Fair enough... provided you're really imagining yourself as a female protag when playing a female MC game. Which is seldom the case. Most of these games are played by straight cis dudes, who do not immerse themselves into a female mind and body at any point of the playthrough. [...] The male player is not really thinking what it would feel like to wear a miniskirt to school, which is then cut to reveal more by some wiseguy, who then decides no more underwear at school for you or else..., to be made to undress in public, or be penetrated without consent by multiple cocks or impregnated by some rando. If anything, he may be secretly wishing he was one of those penetrating random dicks, or the wiseguy who doesn't take no for an answer.

M'boy, you should know better than to project fetishes onto people. Especially when you open by saying "Players aren't into wild things like exhibitionism or gender-swapping" and following with "Players all want to be either a rapey douchebag or a faceless dick amongst a sea of faceless dicks."

Though, I think that you actually managed to cut to the heart of the issue that's taken over this thread (sorry for my part in that, btw): there's a lot to this game (the best parts, I would argue) that appeals to the crowd who might not dig either of those ideas. For example, those who enjoy the idea of gradual corruption, or those who like playing the woman in their fantasies, or have a thing for exhibitionism, or free use, or promiscuity, or submissiveness, or like a million other fetishes. And many of the people who like those angles don't want to be involved with sexual coercion and assault--or, at the very least, want the perpetrator to be someone a bit more worthy.

Rolling back to what the dev said about Ben's unlikability being parody--I actually think it's a pretty great idea. I just don't think it lands in the game's universe as it currently stands. This game takes place in a presumably """realistic""" (heavy air-quotes) universe on the surface, which is a thin veneer that gradually gets pulled back to reveal an extremely porn-y underbelly. To come off as parody in this straight-faced(-ish) world, he'd have to come off as a tragic joke in the context of the universe. But this """realistic""" (sprained index finger from excessive air-quotes) world sees and treats him like a serious hero instead of a clown who thinks he's in a bad H-game, which is problematic since he's portrayed such a garbage person and nothing in the world acknowledges this. On the other hand (again, useless because of hindsight, but) if you wanted the universe to magically work out for him as it always does in the games he's parodying, then the universe itself would have to be the ridiculous element--like, everybody else in the world thinks he's the hottest shit and the protagonist can't figure out why... or he's got some fourth-wall-breaking power where he can edit your stats or make changes to your dialogue trees... or maybe even get Twilight Zone/Treehouse of Horrors with it and have the whole world awkwardly playing along to his every whim, and have it turn out that the inhabitants of the in-game universe just play along to try to make him happy so that they don't get turned into jack-in-the-boxes or whatnot. As it stands, he feels like a punchline without a joke.

Anywho, yeah. Back on-topic. What's this I hear about SlutEd getting feet?

 

[deluges]

Yeah, I haven't played that one a in a few releases for that grind you mention. It does have some stuff for me in the exhibitionism and BDSM parts, but not enough to really hold my interest. I do think it could be a solid game if they could address that grind, mind you, but maybe not to my tastes, ultimately.


Isn't that beyond the scope of this game, though? This game, any game, is what it is because the author wants to make a specific game. For example, they might chose to go with the theme of blackmail because they want to tell a story about an unwilling protagonist pushed down a path of corruption because that's what turns them on. What good does it do to complain in the discussion thread of that game that you don't like blackmail themes, or you wish there were more games with a willing MC? It's one thing to ask, "Are you planning to have a route where the MC is more willing and enthusiastic?", and another to complain about the game not being what you want it to be.

Right. What you are both describing is something fundamentally different from the less-than-consensual fantasy of this sort of game (at least at the start) and the genre of blackmail/coercion in general. This shows in the same reason, that I mentioned above, for when a blackmail theme can often fail: why doesn't the MC simply leave? The central tenet behind any forced corruption is there is some contrivance for why the MC cannot simply walk away, at least not without major life altering (even ending) consequences. That it is forced is the spice that people like me like. I want that fantasy of having no control/being out of control in a very specific way; that's the part that's really exciting for me.

You'll get no argument from me that you can do corruption themes, likewise slutification/bimboification, with a willing and even an enthusiastic protagonist. That's a fantasy of being in control, however, so you can see what I mean when I say it's a fundamental difference. These are mutually exclusive concepts. Either MC is in control, or she is not (see below).

So someone is a bad influence? Why doesn't the MC leave then? If she chooses to stay, she made that choice. That's a fine thing to do in your story or game, but it's clearly not the same thing as her having her choices limited by some kind of ultimatum. If this "bad influence" does issue an ultimatum in hopes of getting the MC's compliance, that's a form of coercion, so we're back to what you don't want.

Guilt has a similar trap. She can choose her path in order to assuage her own guilt, which is a perfectly fine story choice (in particular I can see this adding some good tension into a romantic story), but fundamentally different from one wherein her guilt is being leveraged by someone else in order to coerce the MC. The latter would probably be some kind of blackmail scenario. She makes the choice, or someone else makes it for her, the latter bringing us back to what you don't want.

That altered state idea has the most promise, but quickly runs into similar blocks. It's fine if you want to use a night of drunken debauchery as a catalyst in the protagonist's journey of self discovery, but what if the MC(/player) doesn't wish to continue this path? It's either an end screen or the player does decide to keep following the slut route, right? That is the point of the game, after all, so whenever the MC opts out of the path of corruption, game is done. Or you have to have some way to coerce her into staying on that path...

To sum up, this isn't about blackmail or bad influences or any of that. Those all come later than the core concept of the story, that decision about whether or not this story, at least at the start, is about a willing protagonist or an unwilling one; the crux of it all is control. Either the MC has it, or she doesn't. Now, you can surely have a story where that control weaves in and out, like how SlutED starts and how Emily can choose to embrace her inner slut to varying degrees, but aside for some very specific circumstances (e.g. BDSM and safewords) you can't have both at once, and therefore a story cannot start in both at the same time, either.

You're comparing apples to oranges. You like forced corruption, I don't, nor did I ever say I did. For like the third time, I'm not knocking this game for how it uses it blackmail as a plot device.

Given what you like it makes sense that you are fine with blackmail as a catalyst, while I prefer realistic (maybe believable is the better word) scenarios where the corruption of the female protag makes some sense (and I think that there's far more situations where that can occur than when corruption is imposed upon them). Unless I am mistaken and people are getting blackmailed all the damn time.

 

[lewdpirate]

In the context of slut-ed, the setup is that a bunch of gangsters are looking for you, and someone finds out, it’s pretty much the first thing happening in the game. So to bring it back to slut-ed.. did you expect that there wouldn’t be blackmail in slut-ed or?

I get the frustration that it feels like there are no games that does what you want, but removing blackmail from slut-ed seems very much out of scope of conversations that make sense in this thread. However, modding slut-ed to remove Blackmail is definitely possible, but until the game is done it’s a pain to keep it updated since you kinda have to everything all over with every update.

 

[LTD]

You're comparing apples to oranges. You like forced corruption, I don't, nor did I ever say I did. For like the third time, I'm not knocking this game for how it uses it blackmail as a plot device.

Given what you like it makes sense that you are fine with blackmail as a catalyst, while I prefer realistic (maybe believable is the better word) scenarios where the corruption of the female protag makes some sense (and I think that there's far more situations where that can occur than when corruption is imposed upon them). Unless I am mistaken and people are getting blackmailed all the damn time.

I'm trying to understand your position fully. What continues to not make sense to me is why you are asking for a game, any game, to be something other than what the author intends. There is a difference of degrees here, because I don't think you are demanding anything, but, for example, I have in the past asked if a game that features m/f transformation will feature an "instant" transformation option, or if it will only be slow and involved. Transformation isn't a deal breaker for me, but I have zero interest in process of the transformation. It's just tedious to me (and I don't like futa/shemale/sissy stuff). If the answer comes back "no" (or if I try the game and it seems obvious that the slow transformation is the central theme of the game), I go away. It's not for me.

You are going a step beyond that by complaining in a game thread for a game that does something you don't appear to enjoy that there aren't enough games that do cater to your tastes. Why? What does it get you, except the attention of people like me who love to argue?

So, while you're correct in that I am comparing apples to oranges, as that was my entire point, you want an apple when presented with an orange; maybe you're even trying to turn the apple into an orange? At the very least, you're wishing that apple would spontaneously transform into an orange, despite the fact that the author wanted to "grow" an apple from the very start.

 

[shark_inna_hat]

A bit of trivia - there supposed to be a lot more blackmail and a big _______ mafia plotline, but things happened IRL and _____ started a war. Maybe it would make more sense if some of the characters would be involved in organized crime, but here we are.

Anyways - I just wanted to say: Delays are happening, sorry

 

[madchef]

M'boy, you should know better than to project fetishes onto people. Especially when you open by saying "Players aren't into wild things like exhibitionism or gender-swapping" and following with "Players all want to be either a rapey douchebag or a faceless dick amongst a sea of faceless dicks."

M'boy, you should read more carefully before replying.. Never have I written 'players all want'. I used the expression 'if anything', which is is used when saying that what people may believe is not true, and the opposite may be true. Please take note of the word 'may', which in this context does not mean the fifth month of the year.

Nor was I projecting any fetishes on anyone. I'm not a psychologist, only a sociologist. And as such, I see pornography and pornographic experience the way I see it. And the only indispensable 'fetishes' associated with pornography are voyeurism and obscenophilia (if there is such a term, by which I mean usage or reception of vulgar language).

Porn games are not really that different from other formats of porn, especially VNs like SlutED: a narrated collection of porn scenes using rendered photos of live models. Back in the era of porn shops and 8bit computers with no Internet connection, their shelves would be full of little 30 odd page-long booklets with similar static subtitled photostories, featuring various themes. Please note that a theme is not equivalent to fetish. Most of the times (and I am saying this as a sociologist, not a psychologist) porn users only watch and possibly masturbate to depictions of sex performed by other people, sometimes unusual forms of sex, which does not equal to having a first hand experience of these acts or wishing to have such. They just like to watch. They do not need to immerse themselves or role-play, which is something that video gamers insist upon for some reason. Too many 1st person shooters, I guess.

The pornographic act takes place between the observer's (or reader's) eye and the depiction of the act (in any forms possible, drawing, video, text). The 2nd act of the pornographic experience takes place between... porn users discussing what they saw. No one needs to imagine themselves being Sasha Grey (or being with Sasha Grey either) in order to watch, enjoy and fap to porn featuring Sasha Grey. And then recommend a Sasha Grey flic to a pal.

By analogy, a boxing fan who watches a lot of boxing or plays boxing video games does neither have to be a boxer themselves or wish they were one. Most boxing fans aren't interested in active participation in boxing. The same goes for war movies: it's quite obvious they're not watched by soldiers and militarists only, but mainly by peaceful civilians.

The discussion about non-con vs cons content is, at least on my part, about the setup and tone of typical porn game narratives, which, in my opinion, feature too many inexperienced, passive and sexually traumatized females, which is a theme I'd rather avoid in exchange for more happy sluts who know exactly what men want when they're horny. You know, like in majority of (Western) live action porn, where the initial assumption is that the performers can't get enough sex, and that's why they're doing porn. Of course I know in actuality this may be not the only motivation for doing porn, but you're not supposed to break the promiscouos illusion and discuss renumeration, daddy issues, student debt, substance abuse or anything like that on screen.

 

[lewdpirate]

I might be a perverted weirdo, but in general with all fiction, it’s very much about immersion for me, whether it is film, novels, games or slut-ed. I empathise with the protagonist, even though I get a thrill out of the conflicts and trials they have to face.

looking at porn in a vacuum, especially if you are looking at porn games, will give you a false image of the influence of narrative and medium

sorry couldn’t help myself.. I’m not a sociologist, but a game developer, and it felt a tad personal all of the sudden

 

[madchef]

I might be a perverted weirdo, but in general with all fiction, it’s very much about immersion for me, whether it is film, novels, games or slut-ed. I empathise with the protagonist, even though I get a thrill out of the conflicts and trials they have to face.

looking at porn in a vacuum, especially if you are looking at porn games, will give you a false image of the influence of narrative and medium

sorry couldn’t help myself.. I’m not a sociologist, but a game developer, and it felt a tad personal all of the sudden

Yet, I hope you'll agree that the average porn Joe fond of, let's say, hetero blowjob porn does not have a secret obsession with the taste and mouthfeel of dick. He simply likes to watch girls sucking dick. And SlutED, regardless of the MC being a female, is addressed to your average porn Joe, with no immersion, role-playing intended in mind. If it was, the scenes featuring Emily giving blowjobs would not be depicted from a typical observer's point of view, but from hers. You wouldn't be able to see her face at all, the way you're not able to see your own face at any time unless you're looking at its reflection. I'd accept it is a female role-play game, if it was full of GCs like this one:



which is closer to what one sees when giving a blowjob, as opposed to seeing a female face sucking a cock. Plus if the MCs internal monologue was rife with girly thoughts about men. Not their dicks, not 'fetishes', but men: their faces, warmth of their hands, how they smell and make her feel... The dev does not even attempt to go that deep into Emily's mind - the focus is on her actions, most of which are responses to male advances ultimately leading to sexual 'misadventures'.

Emily lost her clothes? Have her suck the janitors cock to see if he knows anything. Didn't work? Perhaps fucking will get them back.... He did what?! Fucked Emily's ass because she did not make herself clear? And then gave her some dirty overalls to wear and told her to fuck off? Oh, pooor.... Emily? Or yourself as the player? Do you really, in your heart of hearts, imagine yourself participating in this scene? As assfucked Emily to boot? Even if so, do you think that majority of other players imagine themselves as Emily? Or perhaps they just enjoy a sex scene they've unlocked by giving the right wrong answers?

The tradition of telling porn stories by men and for men from a supposed female perspective is age old. In fact, back in the day it was assumed that every porn book has been written by a man. A lot of folks were genuinely surprised when they found out that Pauline Raege, the author of 'The Story of O' was not a pen-name of some dude, but of Anne Declois, a renowned female journalist and translator, and a lover of another intellectual, Jean Paulhan, for whom she wrote this female protag sadomasochistic classic, in order to satiate his desire for BDSM fantasies.

 

[TrapmanCrothers]

I really want to believe you drew that just for the purpose of that post.

 

[lewdpirate]

Firstly, you cannot hold shark inna hat accountable for the lack of female POV porn. I agree that most if not almost all porn image galleries is very male centric, not sharks fault though.

secondly, I would argue that we empathise more with characters if we see their faces, Gordon Freeman is a self insert, not a character, Aloy is a character, we make choices for her, but she is a character we can empathise with. Half life is first person, while the Horizon games are third person.

and finally yes, I agree that most average joes do notsee themselves as the girl, they are self inserting them into a porn scene, not a narrative about characters

edit: but I am also inclined to think that average joes would rather play a simulator type game, than slut-ed

 

[madchef]

Firstly, you cannot hold shark inna hat accountable for the lack of female POV porn. I agree that most if not almost all porn image galleries is very male centric, not sharks fault though.

secondly, I would argue that we empathise more with characters if we see their faces, Gordon Freeman is a self insert, not a character, Aloy is a character, we make choices for her, but she is a character we can empathise with. Half life is first person, while the Horizon games are third person.

and finally yes, I agree that most average joes do notsee themselves as the girl, they are self inserting them into a porn scene, not a narrative about characters

edit: but I am also inclined to think that average joes would rather play a simulator type game, than slut-ed

I am not holding anyone accountable for the lack of female POV porn, if there is such a thing. I am just trying to demonstrate that the female perspective in most porn is superficial and playing a female MC does not offer a female POV... in vast majority of cases. Nor that I wish it were so. It is still all about the male gaze. Which is why one of my interlocutors above is a bit puzzled seeing an erect dick without any female lips wrapped around its head. All it takes to restore his comfort is to draw decidedly female mouth choking on that dick. In the same vein, in so many Japanese female protag games you don't get to see male faces (not to mention pixelled-out dicks, which is another story), just darkened eyeless heads, so your male-gazing focus stays on the woman and what's being done to her.

Also, empathy does not mean immersion or role-playing. While it is feeling for someone, it is not feeling you are that someone. There is a difference, which among other things allows you to love someone else selflessly.