Recommending Story-first games

[yossa999]

I agree: NT is promising and worth tracking.

There are a few skeezy bits, as jufot observed... but there's almost nothing 'porny' about the first two chapters. The dialogue was way, way above par -- particularly the scene with the bartender and 'Kevin.'

Thus far, it feels a bit like _Sorcerer_, albeit with hot flirtation and sex scenes.

What can I say. I just recently discovered this thread when wanted to make a similar one myself. I like it here, and maybe I'm wrong, but you guys are a bit obsessed with avoiding those "porny" aspects of VNs. I understand where this comes from, after dozens of boring mindless sex simulators between plastic dolls pretending to be AVNs, anyone would filter out the lewd tags.
I totally not against porny bits when it comes naturally from the plot, just wish the quantity of porn to not exceed the quality of the story. TNT seems to match this criteria, not to mention that the story is intriguing so far, that's why it's my recommendation. Even the hook up after the bar scene looks very natural in my book. A guy goes to a bar to relieve stress, have a drink and relax, he meets a girl who is there for the same reason. They like each other, drink, chat, joke and flirt all night. And the next morning they wake up together in the same bed. It happens to people all the time, wouldn't call it porny, it's just ordinary life.
However, I personally prefer intimate scenes to have more meaning in the context of character relationships. That's why Summers Gone is my favorite. This movie night with Vic and Mila scene only is more exciting, emotional and sexy than dozens of similar and more explicit scenes from other college setting games. For those who haven't seen Summers Gone yet, you're missing out on a lot

 

[boobsrcool]

So, another dev that has quit due to the spam of the anti-ntr crowd. New update of The Curse of Joy seems to have triggered this. I have no idea if it is a good game or what the perceived issue is and I can't be bothered crawling the thread. Just sad that devs can't just get peace to develop their game.

hopefully they come back

 

[lordfridge9]

So, another dev that has quit due to the spam of the anti-ntr crowd. New update of The Curse of Joy seems to have triggered this. I have no idea if it is a good game or what the perceived issue is and I can't be bothered crawling the thread. Just sad that devs can't just get peace to develop their game.

-Dev says that x content won't be a thing (maybe even promised it won't).
- gets a writer who says "hey let's add x content!".
-dev decides it's a good idea and does it.
- people question it.

Not sure why the extreme reaction on that scale from the dev tho.

That should sort of sum it up. Not the first time it happened

 

[jufot]

There's a new game out called Courtship: A Dance With Love that I'm quite taken with. It's one of the rarest types of AVNs: a period piece that actually takes itself seriously and also tells a compelling story with good gameplay.

That was a good recommendation, thank you!

Some quick thoughts on the LIs so far:

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Anyway, it's an interesting game and I'll definitely keep an eye on it.

 

[Raife]

What can I say. I just recently discovered this thread when wanted to make a similar one myself. I like it here, and maybe I'm wrong, but you guys are a bit obsessed with avoiding those "porny" aspects of VNs.

Welcome.

But you are misreading us, or at least misreading my comments: none of us are against 'porn' or 'porniness' or particular fetishes. After all, look where we're posting!

When I (or jufot) refer to unfortunate 'porny' elements, what we really mean are 'porn tropes' that destroy the integrity of the story, or cause characters to act in ways that seem contrary to their established natures. For example: the strong-willed, determined, self-reliant LI who suddenly agrees to share the MC with five other women 'just because,' or the sudden plot swerve to lever a random sex scene into an episode. That's what we mean by 'porny.'

A game can have _lots_ of hot sex and still be story first, if those scenes serve the plot and drive characterization in a meaningful way. (I totally agree with you on the sex in NT, for example... it is not what I'd call 'porny' or unrealistic.) It's not quantity of sex vs story that matters -- for the purposes of this thread -- but whether the sex serves the story... or vice versa.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with very porny games: many of them are fun to play, and some of them have great or amusing plots or stories. But that's not what jufot is tracking, here.

 

[Raife]

Some quick thoughts on the LIs so far:

As usual, we have predictably similar tastes. My favourite _Courtship_ LIs were:

• Anne. She was the hottest of all for me, so far: proudly independent, dismissive of the MC as a lightweight, totally unimpressed by his social standing (hers is just as exalted) and uninterested in shackling herself to another man. To win her over, the MC will need to grow considerably as a person. Promising stuff.
• Emma's 'take me as I am, or don't even try,' attitude was almost as attractive. I was just put off by her scene because it undercut the historical verisimilitude a bit. It felt... a bit too late 20th Century. Still, she's interesting.

I also agree about the others: Jane seemed sophomoric... but, then again, so does the MC! So she's a good match for him, but unexciting. Sally is interesting only if the player wants to roleplay a cad, perhaps with a conscience. I am hoping that Elinor turns out to be like Jane Fairfax from _Emma_: seemingly insipid and perfect, but actually anguished. Otherwise, she's just insipid!

It will be intriguing to see whether the dev can create layered personalities and depth in his LIs... I certainly hope he's up to the task.

 

[bacienvu88]

Finally, there's nothing wrong with very porny games: many of them are fun to play, and some of them have great or amusing plots or stories. But that's not what jufot is tracking, here.

There is another class of VNs that we tend to not discuss that much here: Those who try to be both story and porny. I'd say Eternum is a prime example, because it has a strong focus on the story, but also has a lot of porny tropes. Sometimes when I play it it feels almost like a commercial break on TV. First we have a story part and then we have the porn break before the next story part. Eternum mostly gets a pass though because it makes up for a lot with humour.

There are quite a lot of games that would fit the list if they just had integrated the sex better.

 

[jufot]

Finally, there's nothing wrong with very porny games: many of them are fun to play, and some of them have great or amusing plots or stories. But that's not what jufot is tracking, here.

This is a good point that I don't acknowledge nearly enough. There are lots of unashamedly porny games that I truly enjoy. Off the top of my head: Give Me a Sun, Retro Style Soviet Undies, Power Vacuum, Her Android Tears, Healslut. They are all good games with something unique to offer. They are just not a good fit for the list in the OP.

[Emma] I was just put off by her scene because it undercut the historical verisimilitude a bit. It felt... a bit too late 20th Century.

Ah, you've been a victim of your inner historian! This might offend your erudite sensibilities, but I consider anything from the Roman invasion of Britain to WWI to be "The Before Times", a period of little import with minor differences not worth fussing about

I am hoping that Elinor turns out to be like Jane Fairfax from _Emma_: seemingly insipid and perfect, but actually anguished. Otherwise, she's just insipid!

Right, I'd love to see some depth to her character. So far she is just bland.

It will be intriguing to see whether the dev can create layered personalities and depth in his LIs... I certainly hope he's up to the task.

Indeed, I'd love to be able to add it to the list.

 

[bacienvu88]

As usual, we have predictably similar tastes. My favourite _Courtship_ LIs were:

• Anne. She was the hottest of all for me, so far: proudly independent, dismissive of the MC as a lightweight, totally unimpressed by his social standing (hers is just as exalted) and uninterested in shackling herself to another man. To win her over, the MC will need to grow considerably as a person. Promising stuff.
• Emma's 'take me as I am, or don't even try,' attitude was almost as attractive. I was just put off by her scene because it undercut the historical verisimilitude a bit. It felt... a bit too late 20th Century. Still, she's interesting.

I also agree about the others: Jane seemed sophomoric... but, then again, so does the MC! So she's a good match for him, but unexciting. Sally is interesting only if the player wants to roleplay a cad, perhaps with a conscience. I am hoping that Elinor turns out to be like Jane Fairfax from _Emma_: seemingly insipid and perfect, but actually anguished. Otherwise, she's just insipid!

It will be intriguing to see whether the dev can create layered personalities and depth in his LIs... I certainly hope he's up to the task.

I agree with your and jufot's opinions. Anne, Emma and Augusta are the only real options for me so far.

Regarding Sally, choosing her feels more like it would be more of a rebellion against his mother than about Sally.

 

[bacienvu88]

Since we're talking about story+porny games I'll recommend Laced Steele. As in literally porny. The game is about a bunch of women that runs a lesbian porn studio which is a cover for that they are all witches. Only the prologue so far, but what I've seen is really promising.

EDIT: And while it has (future) harem tag, it looks more like it is free for all rather than an actual harem.

 

[bacienvu88]

Emma: An LI that says "I'm my own person. Can you live with that?" Sign me right up! Seriously, she is amazing, green flags all around. She doesn't want to get married for anything less than her desire. Even the MC's expected but boorish "what would you do without a man" line doesn't faze her. And holy hell, her stunt in the alley is such a power move given their social status, I'm honestly speechless. My only concern is that she deserves better than MC's boring, conservative, unearned nobility.

While I'm sure it won't go in that direction I can totally see Emma and MC enter a marriage of convenience. Emma gets to keep her independence, MC gets to continue live a life of debauchery. Or alternatively, Emma is a lesbian and not even MC can turn her straight. So a marriage of convenience means she can keep her lesbian lover.

 

[jufot]

While I'm sure it won't go in that direction I can totally see Emma and MC enter a marriage of convenience. Emma gets to keep her independence, MC gets to continue live a life of debauchery. Or alternatively, Emma is a lesbian and not even MC can turn her straight. So a marriage of convenience means she can keep her lesbian lover.

Those would be great to see but yeah, unlikely to happen here as they would mean an LI with no sex scenes with the MC

 

[Vasin]

On Courtship's LIs.

I like Dashwood, not as a person, but as a character. There's clearly a past between her and MC, from the way he thinks of her, and her actions at the soiree, one of sexual nature at that, but what I liked is that you can even rattle her a bit by not falling for her attempt at seduction and saying you want to do it the proper way, I'm just not sure why the MC would as she's not exactly a marriage material by any but the most superficial standard. So far she's your stereotypical golddigger and going the morally superior path, imo, puts MC out of her league, whereas going along with her is just... juvenile.

Sally is... ethically and morally the only way to go here is reject her, short of running away with her and foregoing the estate altogether which is also a very childish thing to do.

Fairfax is decidedly contemporary and the backalley scene is a female equivalent of opening a conversation on a dating app with a dick pick. It's definitely not endearing or a green flag of any description to me.

Countess is the most interesting out of them all, unlike Fairfax, whose disinterest comes off as off putting, she has a reason for it, and does seem somewhat curious about MC. I wouldn't say that she's out of MC's league per se, as we've seen little character on part of them both to make a judgment yet, but there's potential there.

Jane would benefit greatly from a prologue of flashback sequence of some kind, establishing their relationship, her directness comes pretty much out of left field, after a single kiss she suddenly decides that's the guy to go for, but at the same time it makes more sense in the story than "I get naked for random strangers".

One thing for sure, there's a lot of variety there, and I sure hope it won't get jumbled into catch them all harem bullshit in the end.

 

[realjitter]

Eternum

This game, i don't know. Visually the game's awesome, no doubt. Also the story is pretty interesting and overall well done. I still had to drop it somewhat early because i didn't like the rest of it all that much.

- The best friend who gets hooked up with that "unattractive", muscle girl".. Followed by that "superfunny" swerve that he's in love with her...
- The "not mom" who gets the hots for the MC's dick on day one
- The typical harem girls LI's + the overall harem vibe/approach
- The sterotypical meanies
- Lots of micro & macro whiteknighting
- The way over the top black rapist..
- And many more things i can't remember anymore since it's been awhile

Yeah, at some point i just stopped having fun with it despite everything else being awesome. I let the MC hook up with some hooker which was basically my ending for this AVN. A bit sad because this game could've been truly epic imo =(.

All that being said, it's the best rated game on this site so people do have fun with it which is all that matters in the end.

 

[jufot]

So far she's your stereotypical golddigger and going the morally superior path, imo, puts MC out of her league, whereas going along with her is just... juvenile.

I'm not sure she is a gold digger, actually. The servant thinks so, but so what? We haven't seen her actually do anything overtly materialistic.

the backalley scene is a female equivalent of opening a conversation on a dating app with a dick pick. It's definitely not endearing or a green flag of any description to me.

The difference lies in gender roles and the obvious power imbalance, especially given the time period. What would be creepy behaviour from one can easily be an admirable power move from the other.

 

[Vasin]

I'm not sure she is a gold digger, actually. The servant thinks so, but so what? We haven't seen her actually do anything overtly materialistic.

That is true, but knowing her family is in debt put her moves in an air of certain desperation. She does seem genuinely pissed at you for rejecting her "advances" so I guess so far, she can be earnest. Arguably she should be for the sake of good writing and rising above the stereotypes.

The difference lies in gender roles and the obvious power imbalance, especially given the time period. What would be creepy behaviour from one can easily be an admirable power move from the other.

I would agree with you normally, had the scene happened after any sort of buildup or character development. As is, it is the dick pick. It's not exactly the same, but it has similar undertones of in your face obnoxiousness. Were I a man in that situation I would frankly find that insulting. I can see, however, how it can be viewed that way, I mean if dick picks didn't work people wouldn't send them.

 

[jufot]

I would agree with you normally, had the scene happened after any sort of buildup or character development.

That's fair, but imagine her side a bit. This is yet another guy in an endless series of guys that her father and society are effectively forcing her to meet and greet. She resents the process and would rather be anywhere else. Given that, it makes sense that she wants to eliminate men as fast as possible, and what better way to do that than to do something truly shocking and see if they stay put? She surely knows that such a move would drive away most, if not all men. It's a litmus test to identify the vanishingly few who are far more modern than their status would imply, because those are the only men who would be willing to give her the freedom she so desperately wants to preserve.

 

[bacienvu88]

This game, i don't know. Visually the game's awesome, no doubt. Also the story is pretty interesting and overall well done. I still had to drop it somewhat early because i didn't like the rest of it all that much.

- The best friend who gets hooked up with that "unattractive", muscle girl".. Followed by that "superfunny" swerve that he's in love with her...
- The "not mom" who gets the hots for the MC's dick on day one
- The typical harem girls LI's + the overall harem vibe/approach
- The sterotypical meanies
- Lots of micro & macro whiteknighting
- The way over the top black rapist..
- And many more things i can't remember anymore since it's been awhile

Yeah, at some point i just stopped having fun with it despite everything else being awesome. I let the MC hook up with some hooker which was basically my ending for this AVN. A bit sad because this game could've been truly epic imo =(.

All that being said, it's the best rated game on this site so people do have fun with it which is all that matters in the end.

Your criticism is all valid. And for me pretty much all the memorable stuff is in the non-porn parts. The heist in the beginning of episode 3 is one of the best scenes I've watched in a VN. It is awesome.

This game would have been much better if the MC was either removed or replaced by a woman. And then remove the sex or possibly make it a lesbian poly-harem. The MC does not fulfill that much of a role in the game except for being the one who brought the women together and the one with the dick attached.

If not that, at the very least insert a lot more humour directed at the MC. The MC is way too boring for the tone of the rest of the cast.

Lastly, shame on you for calling Michaela unattractive. She's awesome. And I honestly feel that Michaela and Chang is a more interesting couple than MC with any of "his" women. Despite both Michaela and Chang being mostly comedy characters.

 

[realjitter]

Lastly, shame on you for calling Michaela unattractive. She's awesome. And I honestly feel that Michaela and Chang is a more interesting couple than MC with any of "his" women. Despite both Michaela and Chang being mostly comedy characters.

Hey, i put it in quotation marks for a reason=)

Still, the whole idea behind it is just to give the audience some cheap laughs. It's like cringy egostroking at the lowest possible level. The sidekick gets the "unattractive" girl while the MC gets all the anime, lolita chicks... The psychology behind it is just so unbelievably low.... Like it's written for insecure, little children

 

[ename144]

Well, if we're giving our take on the Courtship girls:

• Sally: I can't argue with the consensus, making a move on poor Sally is at best hopelessly misguided and at worst downright creepy. I would be curious to see what happens if you do reject her, though. She could be an interesting platonic companion if the game is so inclined.
• Jane: I agree she would have benefitted from a prologue or flashback. Despite her informality, she doesn't really come across as a friend - probably because she seems to pivot so quickly into a lovestruck teenager the instant the MC kisses her (or even declines to kiss her thanks to that bug). IMHO she's the LI that needs a slow burn the most: first sell us on her being a lifelong friend, then have the MC bond with her further as their parallel marriage hunts turn up frustration after frustration, then have them recognize the depth of their affections and decide what to do about it. The game tried to jump the gun and now Jane's left in a bit of a limbo.
• Elinor: She's certainly framed as the 'perfect' wife, full of obedience and wealth. Not my cup of tea, but I'm not going write her off until we get a chance to see what, if anything, is under the mask. It's hard to blame her for playing a distasteful hand if that's the one she's been dealt and she doesn't want to pay the high cost of forfeiting. If she gets a chance to play a fresh hand, would she embrace it?
• Emma: Emma's very much the wildcard in the cast. On the one hand, it's hard not love a woman that insists those who would court her accept her as a person, and her contempt for the lifestyle of a proper Lady is well earned. On the other hand, stripping naked in front of a virtual stranger to illustrate those points suggests we're probably not going to share a lot of interests beyond women's lib. I'll keep an open mind, but Emma is at best my second priority. (Oh, and there's no way she's going to remove completely a period costume - much less put it back on! - before Sally would be required to get suspicious.)
• Augusta: Not too much to see at the moment. She's clearly starting off in the gold-digger role (to the point you can only fool around with her if you have sufficient Wealth), but again that may be as much necessity as it is inclination. Still, she didn't make much of an impression in the limited time she has. For now she's at the bottom of the list (not counting Sally, obviously).
• Anne: She's far and away my favorite to this point, with her lovely face and cutting wit. It's always nice to see a lady who doesn't need to fawn over the MC, and a slow path to courtship is right up my alley. Of course, we don't actually know that much about her yet. Given how well her current situation worked out, it's entirely possible she's a world-class schemer and no arrangement with her could ever work out in our favor; I'm not saying she had her husband killed, just that she deliberately married and older man and denied him an heir in the hope she'd inherit everything ASAP.* Still, the fact that she'd rather laugh at her suitors than work out a new target suggests she isn't obsessed with climbing the ladder, and the fact she's intrigued if the MC shows interest in her beyond being a suitable wife suggests we'll have a chance to befriend her. Fingers crossed!

* My understanding of Georgian/Victorian society is very limited, but I'm skeptical Anne would be quite as well off as the game suggests. As a widow she should indeed have the rare ability to govern her own affairs, and she would inherit her late husband's personal wealth. But AFAIK, she would not inherit the duchy or it's related wealth (usually land) because women generally can't hold a peerage themselves. She'd still be entitled to the style of Duchess and some of the social perks of that rank, but the duchy itself would revert to the crown (assuming her husband had no next of kin who could inherit). But as I say, I'm no expert and I'll happily accept the game's interpretation for the sake of the meter.

Welcome.

But you are misreading us, or at least misreading my comments: none of us are against 'porn' or 'porniness' or particular fetishes. After all, look where we're posting!

When I (or jufot) refer to unfortunate 'porny' elements, what we really mean are 'porn tropes' that destroy the integrity of the story, or cause characters to act in ways that seem contrary to their established natures. For example: the strong-willed, determined, self-reliant LI who suddenly agrees to share the MC with five other women 'just because,' or the sudden plot swerve to lever a random sex scene into an episode. That's what we mean by 'porny.'

A game can have _lots_ of hot sex and still be story first, if those scenes serve the plot and drive characterization in a meaningful way. (I totally agree with you on the sex in NT, for example... it is not what I'd call 'porny' or unrealistic.) It's not quantity of sex vs story that matters -- for the purposes of this thread -- but whether the sex serves the story... or vice versa.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with very porny games: many of them are fun to play, and some of them have great or amusing plots or stories. But that's not what jufot is tracking, here.

Just so. Actually, I'd go a step further and say the problems really begin when it feels like the story and/or characters are an active impediment to the sex scenes. I've enjoyed some games with lots of sex and precious little plot (Good Girl Gone Bad, for example), but even then the characters make a certain level of sense and what little plot they have works in service of the sex and gameplay. (Admittedly, there's a much larger selection of low-plot games I hate, but in those cases it's clear I'm well outside the game's target demographic.)

It's only when a game goes out of its way to play up the story only to completely ignore the rules/stakes/characterization the instant saxophone music stats playing that I feel a game crosses the line into 'porny.'

There is another class of VNs that we tend to not discuss that much here: Those who try to be both story and porny. I'd say Eternum is a prime example, because it has a strong focus on the story, but also has a lot of porny tropes. Sometimes when I play it it feels almost like a commercial break on TV. First we have a story part and then we have the porn break before the next story part. Eternum mostly gets a pass though because it makes up for a lot with humour.

There are quite a lot of games that would fit the list if they just had integrated the sex better.

Eternum looks gorgeous and Caribdis has a real gift for 'directing' his scenes, but I just can't get into it. Partially that's because the harem aspects hurt my suspension of disbelief, but mostly it's because the game-within-the-game Eternum makes absolutely no sense. It's like the worst MMO PVP server ever, except all the sensations are beamed directly into your brain *and* you'll potentially suffer brain damage if you log off in a rush.

If I absolutely had to spend $5000 on a game, I think I'd rather dig up all those cartridges of the E.T. for the Atari than buy an implant to play [in-game] Eternum.