Recommending Story-first games

[EndlessNights]

Regarding Courtship, I seem to hold an extreme minority opinion because Elinor is actually one of my favorite characters in the game, right up there with Anne and Emma. I greatly enjoyed how her path developed and I think there clear indications that her life isn't perfect or placid or devoid of secrets and drama.

Sometimes in life it can feel like you keep getting pushed towards a person by circumstance (or fate?) even if they're not someone you feel an overwhelming attraction for immediately and even if they're not your typical type. I've found it can be interesting to see where things go in that situation and let the wind take you where it will. Finding a partner isn't like ordering a meal from a restaurant menu or checking boxes in an online form and clicking submit. There's always some level of uncertainty about what you truly want. If I were in the marquess' no doubt uncomfortable shoes, I'm sure I'd be more attracted to Anne at first glance and at first conversation...but I think I might let the wind lead me to Elinor anyway.

That's how my first playthrough went: my choices seemed to keep naturally leading the marquess to Elinor even when I wasn't consciously trying to have him pursue her. To intervene when Grey is harassing her in the streets felt like the obviously honorable thing to do and really the only moral choice. To speak to her mother -- the lady of the house -- when the MC was a guest in her home was again a no-brainer. To speak to Elinor when the entire event was focused on her musical performance again seemed the natural course to pursue. In every interaction, she is as nice as she is proper, and I found it easy to like her. Just the fact that she is a musician is quite attractive IMO, and in an era before recorded music her piano skills have quite a practical appeal. I also enjoyed the dynamic of befriending her mother and didn't really think of it as strategic...why shouldn't they be friends considering their families might be joined together sooner or later?

I suspect two dramatic threads featuring Elinor will come to the forefront in future updates. First of all, why was Grey harassing her in the streets to begin with? I doubt this was a purely random act of boorishness. They know each other and they're both members of the nobility. Is he blackmailing her? Does he want to marry her? Is he trying to use her as part of some feud with her parents? Secondly, the marquess' friend Wickham appears to be in love with Elinor himself, but he doesn't think he has a chance to marry her due to his lack of inheritance. Are his feelings completely one-sided or could Elinor also have a thing for him?

With regards to the debate on Emma's behavior during the date, I think ename144, jufot, and Raife all made excellent points. The one thing I think I know about 19th century women's fashion is that putting on and taking off the ornate garments of the period were far from trivial undertakings so I also wondered just how long Sally and the marquess had to wait in order for Emma to make her bold statement and then resuit. Still, she certainly made her point quite powerfully and in my opinion what she did had nothing in common with a random dick pic sent as a crude come-on or as harassment. What Emma asked with her nudity is, "Can you truly accept me as I am? Everything about me...even what's different and unconventional and completely unlike anything you've seen in your world?" I'm quite curious to hear what the MC's answer ultimately will be!

 

[Dragon59]

Another newcomer with great potential
The Neverwhere Tales

It's urban fantasy story about an ordinary guy with his ordinary office job who suddenly finds himself in the midst of a conflict between a secret order and supernatural forces. Moreover, his relatives turned out to be full of surprises. So far two chapters were released, I liked what I saw, highly recommend.

Hopefully there's never a revisited, revised, rebooted, or return version of this game. The initialization will drive some mad.

 

[Raife]

There are some fascinating and revealing recent posts on the _Corporate Culture_ thread. They help explain the thinking of players who are uninterested in games with realistic human interactions or stories.

Players who feel this way see the dev's job as:

1. creating LIs who like _me_ (the MC, from their perspective, is synonymous with the player);
2. making LIs 'appealing' -- that is, to the preferences of the player;
3. protecting the player from feelings of jealousy or inadequacy, which can arise from creating MCs with nuanced (or flawed) personalities, LIs who have an independent existence from the MC, or NPCs who might be attractive to the LIs.

I understand, of course, that many people play these games as an escape. But I have an awfully hard time empathizing with players who vehemently insist on 1-3 in every game, and badger devs incessently unless they get their way. If they are that hyper-sensitive and prone to self-insertion, it must be awfully hard for them to engage with literature, art or film... let alone messy, challenging human relationships.

As an insight into human feelings, I find all of the above both interesting and strange. It does not bother me, per se, that some players feel this way... except when they turn up on threads featuring my favourite story-first games and insist on turning a gourmet meal into White Castle.

 

[bacienvu88]

There are some fascinating and revealing recent posts on the _Corporate Culture_ thread. They help explain the thinking of players who are uninterested in games with realistic human interactions or stories.

Players who feel this way see the dev's job as:

1. creating LIs who like _me_ (the MC, from their perspective, is synonymous with the player);
2. making LIs 'appealing' -- that is, to the preferences of the player;
3. protecting the player from feelings of jealousy or inadequacy, which can arise from creating MCs with nuanced (or flawed) personalities, LIs who have an independent existence from the MC, or NPCs who might be attractive to the LIs.

I understand, of course, that many people play these games as an escape. But I have an awfully hard time empathizing with players who vehemently insist on 1-3 in every game, and badger devs incessently unless they get their way. If they are that hyper-sensitive and prone to self-insertion, it must be awfully hard for them to engage with literature, art or film... let alone messy, challenging human relationships.

As an insight into human feelings, I find all of the above both interesting and strange. It does not bother me, per se, that some players feel this way... except when they turn up on threads featuring my favourite story-first games and insist on turning a gourmet meal into White Castle.

Reminds me of The Veritate where I dislike every character in the game to some degree, including MC. Despite that, I think the game is entertaining and can become great if the dev can play that angle well with the LIs causing all kinds of trouble for the MC. But I fear all of them are going to become docile after after a few updates. It is an incest harem game after all.

 

[realjitter]

it must be awfully hard for them to engage with literature, art or film... let alone messy, challenging human relationships.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I would also add music to that list.

 

[Bombmaster]

There are some fascinating and revealing recent posts on the _Corporate Culture_ thread. They help explain the thinking of players who are uninterested in games with realistic human interactions or stories.

Players who feel this way see the dev's job as:

1. creating LIs who like _me_ (the MC, from their perspective, is synonymous with the player);
2. making LIs 'appealing' -- that is, to the preferences of the player;
3. protecting the player from feelings of jealousy or inadequacy, which can arise from creating MCs with nuanced (or flawed) personalities, LIs who have an independent existence from the MC, or NPCs who might be attractive to the LIs.

I understand, of course, that many people play these games as an escape. But I have an awfully hard time empathizing with players who vehemently insist on 1-3 in every game, and badger devs incessently unless they get their way. If they are that hyper-sensitive and prone to self-insertion, it must be awfully hard for them to engage with literature, art or film... let alone messy, challenging human relationships.

As an insight into human feelings, I find all of the above both interesting and strange. It does not bother me, per se, that some players feel this way... except when they turn up on threads featuring my favourite story-first games and insist on turning a gourmet meal into White Castle.

Excellent post.
Even not connecting very much with corporate culture, because as you said is almost as a satire / the office kinda, no LI is bending backwards for you MC.
Is visible how smart and special that work present itself.

Is like how some people are totally averse just by the thought of cheating, swinging and normal human behavior even if it is avoidable. The difficulty for distance themselves from the story or even the possibility of a bad end for their inadequate choices.

 

[Jaike]

I just missed the annual porny hour.

Still I'm going to plug Blood Biter Beatdown for a moment. It's a game in a grindhouse style and leans heavily into its trashy aesthetic, so turn the sound on. It has action movie style choreographic tactical battles. And a B&B owner who swings with her guests.

The MC is rude, crass, silly, sexually aggressive, a badass, and also a bit of a creep more than one time and I guess you could call her a "man with tits". But she's also a very fun larger than life character and an unusual female power fantasy character. There's a filter for straight, bi and lesbian scenes. The MC is in charge in most of the content but I wouldn't call it lezdom or femdom. There also seem to be a few GOR scenes, I don't think there's much however and I avoided it all in my playthrough.

I have to say that the threesome path was unusually direct in undermining the emotional value of the ending. Bonnie is a quite interesting character, but Bridgit not, so maybe it's better if the MC only pursues Bonnie. (I hope you see a pattern by now.) The male characters, at least on the bi settings, were also pretty flat, but in one case that looked like a joke on male MCs to me.

Jaike will be annoyed that many of the historical allusions are wrong or dubious -- sometimes hilariously so. But it's no worse than quite a lot of so-called 'period' pieces from Hollywood these days, so I can live with it.

Nah, I don't know much about the Regency period. Prolly not enough to even recognise anachronisms.

"Regency harem" did leave me scratching my head... but I'll defer to the dev's knowledge.

Ah, you've been a victim of your inner historian! This might offend your erudite sensibilities, but I consider anything from the Roman invasion of Britain to WWI to be "The Before Times", a period of little import with minor differences not worth fussing about

 

[jufot]

Still I'm going to plug Blood Biter Beatdown for a moment.

Thanks for the recommendation. I love the premise and will definitely give it a go.

Ah, at least I've managed to coax a reaction out of our other resident historian. 1 out of 2 isn't that bad

 

[Jaike]

Thanks for the recommendation. I love the premise and will definitely give it a go.

Whatever you'll end up thinking about it, I'm sure it doesn't disappoint on the porny and trashy aspect! I also hope you'll find the fights fun.

Ah, at least I've managed to coax a reaction out of our other resident historian. 1 out of 2 isn't that bad

Not much of a feat though. Sort of like getting rain to fall around the North Sea or getting a dog to lick its groin, it happens automatically.

 

[jufot]

Not much of a feat though.

Well, it's still very much appreciated. It's no fun teasing when the target doesn't come out and play

 

[bacienvu88]

Of course, to each his own, but don't judge people just because they don't like "story-rich" AVNs and don't think "it must be awfully hard for them to engage with literature, art or film... let alone messy, challenging human relationships", because the opposite can also happen: people may think -- "why those people are looking for 'story-rich' porn games? Why they don't go read a book or watch a good film, since, like, 99.999...% of those AVNs are worst than even pulp fiction, imagine when it's compared with high-bro literature!"

Whenever anyone says "why don't you read a book instead if you want a good story?" I always counter with "why don't you just watch a porn movie if you want to fap?". Do you possibly have an answer?

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I want from story-rich AVNs is a good story that doesn't exclude the sexy bits. I especially want AVNs that explores realistic human relationships and what happens to them when choosing different options. In particular, the MC's relationships. Human relationships include sex. And lots of other sex related stuff such as different kinks/fetishes and so on. I want those topics to be able to be included in the story as well. Furthermore sex related stuff is often (but not always) better depicted using visuals than just words. And the typcial AVN format lends for both words and pictures without making it prohibitively expensive as a movie would.

EDIT: Regarding Kathy Rain, it is a fairly good story, yes (although I don't think I ever finished it). The problem is that it is a point-and-click adventure. Those are basically a VN or kinetic novel with lots of pixel hunting to disrupt the flow of the story. My tolerance for pixel hunting has become lower and lower with age.

 

[Hildegardt]

meaningful, insightful, or philosophical

I'm not sure these are the right descriptors. To me story-first seems less about content and more about structure. If we're honest for a moment, many of the "best" games that get recommended here would probably be YA, if not for the porny bits. They aren't really educational or have a message or something like that.

 

[jufot]

If we're honest for a moment, many of the "best" games that get recommended here would probably be YA, if not for the porny bits. They aren't really educational or have a message or something like that.

That's fair. Most are very much the Y in YA. I'm always surprised when there is an MC born on the other side of the millennium

 

[noping123]

That's fair. Most are very much the Y in YA. I'm always surprised when there is an MC born on the other side of the millennium

Man....

So I've done two things in the course of my game so far:

#1 - I've clearly established the exact date(s) the story happens. (Hint: In some renders, the phone is visible, and displays the day/date. You can easily check a calendar to find the corresponding year.)

#2 - I've clearly established the age of at least a few characters.

One of these characters who's age I've clearly established, I had to for the upcoming update, figure out their exact DOB.

I was simultaneously extremely disheartened, and THRILLED that the characters DOB ended up being in 1999. Thrilled because it was NOT this side of the millennium, disheartened because it's still 99

It was that moment I felt like a dirty old man.

 

[jufot]

(Hint: In some renders, the phone is visible, and displays the day/date. You can easily check a calendar to find the corresponding year.)

That's much too subtle. Even if I saw it, I would have thought it's probably the default text from whatever Daz asset you were using

 

[noping123]

That's much too subtle. Even if I saw it, I would have thought it's probably the default text from whatever Daz asset you were using

Oh I know. I don't think a single person noticed it lol. But every time I had the date on the phone visible, it was accurate. (It only shows up a few times total, but it was different almost every time.)

I ALSO went through the trouble (again, almost definitely unnoticed) of making sure the time was accurate - whatever time of day the MC was using the phone, was the time actually displayed on the phone. Battery life is also accurate to where it should be for that time of day.

ALSO - any visible clocks in game are also accurate.

I spent WAY too much time on a lot of these little details that NO ONE ever noticed and I don't have any idea why. Even in one render I did recently, I spent more time than I'll admit redoing the texture maps on one asset, just to make sure the time on the clock was accurate - for one render that you only see on one path, for about 5 seconds. (10 if youre a slow reader).


There's a few other things here and there where I went out of my way to ensure accuracy.... and then I went ahead and made one MAJOR continuity error (visual only, not storywise) that I plan on fixing almost immediately after I finish this chapter up.

 

[realjitter]

Alright the pressure is on i'd say. Next time I play Alive i'm not going to pay attention to anything other than time accuracy =)

 

[bacienvu88]

Oh! But indeed I do! Call me a weirdo, but I play those games just for entertainment! For fapping, I still prefer old porn. Not only better "animations", but, you know... I'm a very auditory guy, and the sound of most AVNs is quite bad... But I have no prejudice... For those who get excited with those narratives, have fun! Go for it!

But that's the point. No prejudice... Because if you say you're taste is more refined than the one of another group, someone can come and point that what you're looking for is not that far from the lowest-bro either... But if you have an attitude like "to each his own! Let's all have fun with what we like", no one can criticize you...

Don't get me wrong... As I said, I'm one of those weirdos who prefer AVNs (in the broader sense) that are sandboxed, with more game mechanics, like free-roams, point and click, management, and so on... And sometime I get pissed off, like, "why those motherfuckers like those shitty novels with verborragic badly-written dialogues!" But that's it... That's what people like... I can't do nothing about it... Just hope for some crazy developers go against the grain and do a sandbox game for me and my fellow brothers-in-taste.

And I know sex is part of human relationships, but in serious movies, they edit the sex scenes or do something more stylized because you just need to understand people had sex; you don't need to actually see it. It's completely irrelevant to the plot. Only in exploitative films -- the ones I liked to watch as a kid because there was no Internet (and even then I knew they were bad... I was just happy to see some tits'n'ass) -- they show more than necessery for "fan service". Picture the sex scene in Fight Club... Imagine if it were graphic and explicit... IMHO, it would be completely awkward...

You know... I like other games too, and one series I like is Fallout. One day I thought: "oh! It would be cool if the characters actually fucked!" I installed a mod and, voilá, everybody started fucking... It was fun for a week... It was completely useless to the ludonarrative...

But, as I said... To each his own.. If someone can get something positive out of something, go for it! Just don't think it's better than any other taste unless that one is ready to engage in a debate about art theory...

And Kathy Rain is indeed quite cool. I'm planning to play the last game from the same creators, Whisper of a Machine, in the following days.



Well... At least for me, it would have to be both, because only following the canons of structure doesn't make something interesting (for me)... And I even think it's possible to do something without structure, like slice-of-life, and have something interesting, while, without good content, I don't think so. But I see many critiques around here that are content-related, like, about the objective of the game being a harem, about all the girls falling for the MC, about simplistic relationships, about plain LIs... Since all of this is content, I though "story rich" was about that; otherwise, I wouldn't say all because some games around here are really plotless, but the majority of those that get some attention has some structure, even if they commit those sins listed above (while, on the other hand, some lauded as being "deep" have such ludicrous plots...).

First. No one has said anything in this thread about story-first "being better than other games" or that we are "more refined" or otherwise superior to others. If we talk about "being better" it is in the context of the games that we like, i.e. story first games. In fact many of us in this thread enjoy other AVNs as well. Heck, I even enjoy sandbox if done well. But that is not what this thread is about.

Second. You seem to be under the impression that sex scenes are only there for fapping and fan service. While that is common in AVNs it is not always the case. And I would argue that the best story-first games have the sex scenes well integrated in the plot. A slightly convoluted example: could be someone who is usually shy and anxious find out they like to take charge in the bedroom. And they gain gained a lot of confidence from that. Skipping the sex scene would lead the audience wondering why there is a personality change in the character. Or taking an example from an actual game: In Nothing is Forever, how would you explain the awkwardness between MC and Emma after their hate fuck without showing the raw emotions on display in the actual hate fuck scene? And I would also argue that the entire plot of NiF would be impossible without sex scenes. And there are other games like that as well (some of the Elsaverse games come to mind), although fewer than I'd like.

Third. You seem to be under the impression that I think every book and movie should have sex scenes. I do not. Sex scenes should serve the plot. Not just be there for fan service. And you don't just add a sex scene to existing works and think that would make them better. There may be cases like that, but it would be exceedingly rare. Also keep in mind that there is a selection bias in both AVNs and books and movies. AVN devs choose plots with the assumption that there is going to be sex scenes shown. Authors and film producers coose plots with the assumptions that there isn't going to be sex scenes that is described or shown. Besides, it isn't that uncommon for literature to contain detailed sex scenes. And no I am not referring to Romance and Erotica here. The Miller's Tale from The Canterbury Tales is basically filled with sex and toilet jokes. Movies mostly don't because of Hollywood and American hypersensitivity to sex and the female body. Classic art has lots of nudity. And so on. Some stories benefit from sex scenes and others are better without. There are even some AVNs that I think would be better without sex scenes.

As for Fight Club, I could totally see Tyler and the Narrator having a steamy hate fuck session. Especially in the context of the reveal that Tyler and the Narrator are the same person. But I guess that would diminish the number of viewers drastically.

 

[Bombmaster]

With sadness found myself grieving about discovering a gem, falling in love with said gem and sadly having my heart broken against the cold hard Truth about Abandoned tag oh please Roy sing for me.

Kudos for this list without you never would had the chance of playing said game.

Author so fucking based is a shame the merchant guild is not bankrolling him.

Text and dialogue in real English. The real English! British.

Felt like home and watching the original
skins (season 1,2 tho) kino.

Back and forth banter. Sometimes a little immersion breaking.

Nevertheless err in the name of love and passion.

And for that thanks for this list.

 

[kotte]

I sit here in the first post-playthrough bliss, my mind still reluctant to leave the world that I have been in for the last 5-6 hours.

Thanks to this thread, I picked up The End of an Actress and oh dear, did I like it.

True to my habits, I played it in one playthrough without exploring any alternative paths. That will have to wait until I have stopped reliving the story in my mind, no longer thinking "what if" and hearing the soundtrack in my head.

Thanks to Jufot and everyone that contributes to his list and this thread, for making it possible to find gems like this, and for making F95 a slightly more tolerable place to be.