Recommending Story-first games

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thedude

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The drawback to this though is that there is very little plot and drama. It is more of a string of encounters where MC gets new relationships or progress existing ones. So can't really call it story-first game.
I've been meaning to ask about this for some time now, but does a great story-first game necessarily need drama? Isn't it possible at all to have a story-first game without drama?

The thing I have against drama in this kind of games is that I only remember seeing drama that threatens characters lives/safety. Granted I haven't played the huge majority of the games talked about here, but the ones I remember playing, the drama involved threats to character's lifes.

I'm all for a good story, but I'm a character-first kind of player. I really care for the characters so I dislike anything that put them at risk.
 

jufot

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May 15, 2021
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I've been meaning to ask about this for some time now, but does a great story-first game necessarily need drama? Isn't it possible at all to have a story-first game without drama?
It doesn't necessarily need drama, but it does need a plot and bacienvu's description suggests it doesn't have that either.

I'm all for a good story, but I'm a character-first kind of player.
I am too, and I think it's easier to write character-first stories so most writers tend to lean that way. Plot-first is much harder to pull off without becoming boring or inconsistent. Though when someone does pull it off (think Asimov with Foundation) it works brilliantly.
 
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Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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I've been meaning to ask about this for some time now, but does a great story-first game necessarily need drama? Isn't it possible at all to have a story-first game without drama?
Drama in the sense of characters acting badly isn't necessary, but conflict is. Conflict can come in many forms, but it's extremely hard to have a compelling story without it.

Tlaero
 
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I've been meaning to ask about this for some time now, but does a great story-first game necessarily need drama? Isn't it possible at all to have a story-first game without drama?
Drama in the sense of characters acting badly isn't necessary, but conflict is. Conflict can come in many forms, but it's extremely hard to have a compelling story without it.
Yeah, every interesting story is fundamentally liminal (or liminoid) in subject and nature. They are about overcoming crises. That's as true for Lost in Translation or Her as it is for the Avengers franchise. Entire genre are basically defined by the difference in scope and type of crisis and how much (internal or external) conflict or friction there is.

'Low drama' stories tend to have more of a focus on internal conflicts or incidental friction. The less conflict, the more niche they tend to be. There is a niche for mostly wholesome Slice of Life stories too though (Couples for example is divisive but has its loyal fans)
 
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bacienvu88

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Aug 3, 2021
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It doesn't necessarily need drama, but it does need a plot and bacienvu's description suggests it doesn't have that either.
'Low drama' stories tend to have more of a focus on internal conflicts or incidental friction. The less conflict, the more niche they tend to be. There is a niche for mostly wholesome Slice of Life stories too though (Couples for example is divisive but has its loyal fans)
Casual Desires isn't as devoid of conflict as Neverlucky's games, but most of it is internal conflict as in "do I want to do this or not", "am I really going to go this far?". That said, many of the characters have some sort of conflict in their lives. MC has loving parents, but there is a bit of friction. One of MC's friend has a bit of rocky relationship with her boyfriend. Her boss is going through a difficult divorce. Another of her friends dislikes her brother. And so on. And these can be called a bit of plot as well I guess. But all of it is lowkey and not the focus of the game.
 
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Dragon59

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Drama in the sense of characters acting badly isn't necessary, but conflict is. Conflict can come in many forms, but it's extremely hard to have a compelling story without it.

Tlaero
I agree.
You can get by with a little bit of conflict in a shorter story, but I feel that for a longer story, you don't only need some sort of conflict for the protagonist to deal with, but conflict that helps to define who the protagonist is. Even better when that conflicts brings the protagonist to question who they've been and who they wish to become on the other side of the journey.

My first project A Paris Exhibition, takes place over the course of one day. Not much room for a lot of character development. Dirty Snowball's conflicts take place over a span of months. That one has room for exploration of one's character. How the protagonist deals with disaster and loss will be a big part of the journey. Can the protagonist inspire others to work together for their survival?

(cue trollish comments informing us we're not real writers)<-- if we'd been anywhere but here.
 
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thedude

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I agree conflict is indeed necessary to a great story, as Tlaero well pointed out.

It's just that, when it comes to AVNs, the ones I remember tend to have the conflict be a huge big bad villain that threatens the characters lifes, and that's where my issue lies with.

As I said, I'm a character-first kind of player. I get really invested on the character's journeys. Yes, there must be conflict for them to evolve. But the conflict I dislike seeing is danger to their lives and safety. Family and relationship issues, job drama, are considered mere "internal conflicts"?

What are some story-focused games you guys like that don't involve death threats to the characters?
 
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HogRocket

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Jun 8, 2020
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I agree.
You can get by with a little bit of conflict in a shorter story, but I feel that for a longer story, you don't only need some sort of conflict for the protagonist to deal with, but conflict that helps to define who the protagonist is. Even better when that conflicts brings the protagonist to question who they've been and who they wish to become on the other side of the journey.

My first project A Paris Exhibition, takes place over the course of one day. Not much room for a lot of character development. Dirty Snowball's conflicts take place over a span of months. That one has room for exploration of one's character. How the protagonist deals with disaster and loss will be a big part of the journey. Can the protagonist inspire others to work together for their survival?

(cue trollish comments informing us we're not real writers)<-- if we'd been anywhere but here.
You're not real writers because you don't use an ink dipped quill and write in Spencerian script on vellum. The LEAST you could do is type them out on a vintage typewriter. Slackers. :rolleyes:

I'm working on my own "not legitimate" AVN at the moment, so I'm looking forward to those posts (as well as the "lazy dev" ones) some day

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Hildegardt

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Oct 18, 2017
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What are some story-focused games you guys like that don't involve death threats to the characters?
I mean... pretty much the overwhelming majority of games that get recommended here? I honestly can't think of any games, where the characters are in genuine danger with potential consequences besides Acting Lessons. I'm actually curious about the opposite. Are there any other games, where LI as a status doesn't come with the thickest plot armour?
Maybe you feel like these games are overrepresented in this thread, because the regulars seem to have a bias against over-the-top power fantasies with no stakes? If you don't like any mention of violence at all, just filter out noncon fetish stuff and avoid any setting with a chance of action scenes of the non-lewd variety and you're probably good to go.
 
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bacienvu88

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I agree conflict is indeed necessary to a great story, as Tlaero well pointed out.

It's just that, when it comes to AVNs, the ones I remember tend to have the conflict be a huge big bad villain that threatens the characters lifes, and that's where my issue lies with.

As I said, I'm a character-first kind of player. I get really invested on the character's journeys. Yes, there must be conflict for them to evolve. But the conflict I dislike seeing is danger to their lives and safety. Family and relationship issues, job drama, are considered mere "internal conflicts"?
I don't consider those "internal conflicts". An internal conflict is something that exist within the character without external stimuli. To take a trivial example: "I'm hungry, what should I eat? I don't feel like a burger or pizza today. Maybe ramen? Or something chinese?".

I don't have a problem with the life of the characters being on the line. The problem is that most of the conflicts in VNs are so formulaic. "Hmm. I wonder how I should create conflict in my school game. Oh I know! Let's have a rich kid which has an irrational obsessive hatred for the MC!". Or "Let's have the father loan lots of money from the Mafia before he inevitable dies (because no fathers are allowed to be alive).". My favorite AVN death threat conflict I think is One Day at a Time where the main conflict isn't with humans. The conflict is with drugs and addiction.

If you really want character first, then you need to bring your characters to their breaking point to get to the core of who the character is. That is, what will the character do when truly cornered. And death threats are awfully convenient to do that. For AVNs you could use cheating as well, but that is unfortunately extremely taboo here unless it is fetishized.
What are some story-focused games you guys like that don't involve death threats to the characters?
Nothing is Forever. Corporate Culture. Lots more.
 

bacienvu88

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Aug 3, 2021
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I mean... pretty much the overwhelming majority of games that get recommended here? I honestly can't think of any games, where the characters are in genuine danger with potential consequences besides Acting Lessons. I'm actually curious about the opposite. Are there any other games, where LI as a status doesn't come with the thickest plot armour?
I think plot armor doesn't apply for this discussion. It is in-world death threats. The characters themselves don't know that they have plot armor.
 

thedude

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Aug 9, 2016
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I mean... pretty much the overwhelming majority of games that get recommended here? I honestly can't think of any games, where the characters are in genuine danger with potential consequences besides Acting Lessons. I'm actually curious about the opposite. Are there any other games, where LI as a status doesn't come with the thickest plot armour?
Maybe you feel like these games are overrepresented in this thread, because the regulars seem to have a bias against over-the-top power fantasies with no stakes? If you don't like any mention of violence at all, just filter out noncon fetish stuff and avoid any setting with a chance of action scenes of the non-lewd variety and you're probably good to go.
From the top of my head, besides Acting Lessons - Alive, Being A DIK (with the introduction of an armed Vinny), Leap of Faith, Intertwined, Hillside. Those all have genuine threats for the characters' lives one way or another, imo.

Even Become a Rock Star had it.

Nothing is Forever. Corporate Culture. Lots more.
Nothing is Forever is on my list to try it. I saw Corporate Culture being mentioned here as well and for some unknown reason, I never took a look at that thread. It seems interesting. I'll put it on the list as well. Thank you.
 

realjitter

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Jun 21, 2021
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From the top of my head, besides Acting Lessons - Alive, Being A DIK (with the introduction of an armed Vinny), Leap of Faith, Intertwined, Hillside. Those all have genuine threats for the characters' lives one way or another, imo.

Even Become a Rock Star had it.
You really don't like death threats, do you?=). Well, depending on how serious you are with these things..., but I guess you could also add Summer's Gone to that list then.
 
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bacienvu88

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You really don't like death threats, do you?=). Well, depending on how serious you are with these things..., but I guess you could also add Summer's Gone to that list then.
Let's go through jufot's list then to see which has death threats

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Summary: 22 yes, 5 no, 1 maybe, 18 not played out of 46 games.
 

Impenitent

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Nov 1, 2022
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Drama in the sense of characters acting badly isn't necessary, but conflict is. Conflict can come in many forms, but it's extremely hard to have a compelling story without it.

Tlaero
A simple, fundamental concept of writing that too many AVN developers haven't internalized, since they apparently don't understand how boring it is to show a bunch of good-looking people sitting around talking about how nice everything is.
 

vneotpolemus

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Sep 22, 2019
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Nothing is Forever is on my list to try it. I saw Corporate Culture being mentioned here as well and for some unknown reason, I never took a look at that thread. It seems interesting. I'll put it on the list as well. Thank you.
Klondike is another one you should give a shot. Having zero physical threat is surprisingly rare in fiction in general though. Even genres that you'd expect to be low stakes often include some.

A simple, fundamental concept of writing that too many AVN developers haven't internalized, since they apparently don't understand how boring it is to show a bunch of good-looking people sitting around talking about how nice everything is.
There's a reason basically any college-level creative writing course will hammer in the importance of conflict from day one. Being too kind to their characters is the most common mistake beginners make. Usually because they're self-inserting. Every author self-inserts, but you've got to learn to step back.
 

EndlessNights

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Jun 18, 2022
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No death threats but definitely intense. At some point playing through I felt ill
That's quite a reaction to have! Did the tension get to be too much or was a scene too kinky for you?

I had Camp Klondike on my list of games to try again after a mixed initial experience. I have now done so and unfortunately decided it just isn't for me since both times I've played it I've ended up quitting early. Perhaps it improves significantly later on, but I don't think I'll ever feel inclined to find out at this point. Still, there's one thing even I can really appreciate about the game that others have mentioned: the quality of its erotic writing is simply outstanding and likely among the best you'll ever find on this site. It's very heavy on teasing, build-up, and sexual tension. Instead of focusing on the mechanics of sex, it immerses you in a maelstrom of sensual thoughts and feelings that can definitely be rather intense at times. It also discusses and portrays kinks in a very respectful and open-minded fashion.

I didn't find much to draw me in beyond the erotic writing, however. The game isn't porn-focused, but it is very much sex-focused to the detriment of the story IMO. The characters feel rather empty to me: they're avatars of horniness who are defined and dominated by their sexual desires and hangups. It's as if every character is some variation of Bruno from The Elementary Particles. At least Bruno in the novel is depicted as a fundamentally broken person. The horndogs in the game are seemingly supposed to be healthy, normal young people who are learning, growing, and finding themselves, but I can barely recognize them as human beings a lot of the time.

If you approach the game as the AVN equivalent of an 80s sex comedy which may be what it was intended to be, you might enjoy it more than I did. I had the thought while playing that even the old Meet and Fuck games would've been quite a bit better if they'd had anywhere near the same amount of tension and build-up as this game does. They'd still be ridiculous, though, because the stories would still be nonsensical and the characters paper thin...I think great erotic writing can make a bad story better, but it can't make it good all on its own. As a mostly kinetic visual novel, Camp Klondike doesn't offer much in the way of gameplay either.

Still, I can understand why its fans love it as a quirky little thing that isn't like anything else on this site. I will say I did appreciate the primitive but unique art. It reminded me of something you might come across in an old Flash game. Very idiosyncratic and full of personality. However, one thing I didn't like artwise is that a couple of the male characters look younger visually than they should narratively speaking. The dev has talked about how developing the game has been a learning experience for him, and you can definitely see him slowly honing his skills as the game moves along.
 

Dragon59

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Apr 24, 2020
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I mean... pretty much the overwhelming majority of games that get recommended here? I honestly can't think of any games, where the characters are in genuine danger with potential consequences besides Acting Lessons. I'm actually curious about the opposite. Are there any other games, where LI as a status doesn't come with the thickest plot armour?
Maybe you feel like these games are overrepresented in this thread, because the regulars seem to have a bias against over-the-top power fantasies with no stakes? If you don't like any mention of violence at all, just filter out noncon fetish stuff and avoid any setting with a chance of action scenes of the non-lewd variety and you're probably good to go.
I'm afraid of Acting Lessons....
 

Dragon59

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Apr 24, 2020
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You're not real writers because you don't use an ink dipped quill and write in Spencerian script on vellum. The LEAST you could do is type them out on a vintage typewriter. Slackers. :rolleyes:

I'm working on my own "not legitimate" AVN at the moment, so I'm looking forward to those posts (as well as the "lazy dev" ones) some day

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
I think I need to repeat this one here:
"It's not a valid complaint unless it comes from the Complaigne region of France. Otherwise, it's just a sparkly whine."
 
5.00 star(s) 8 Votes