Recommending Story-first games

[EndlessNights]

It would be great, if there would be something like an additional section in the first post called “People's recommendations” or something similar with recommendation from other people that didn’t make it to the main jufot’s list for any reason.

That way he keeps his reputation of having high standards, and people have more (usually) good games listed to try.

I would say anyone who strongly wants to share their own list of story-focused games should start their own rec thread. Diversity and friendly competition are good things. Adding other people's recommendations to the OP is in my opinion problematic for a number of reasons: it would increase jufot's administrative workload, it would make the OP more chaotic and confusing, and it would likely undermine the criteria jufot set out to define what "story-first" means in his view. I imagine it also wouldn't feel very good to feel obligated to add other people's recommendations to the OP that you might completely disagree with.

Everyone of course has their own opinions. There are games on the list that would never make it on mine if I did one and a fair number of games I esteem will likely never win jufot's favor. I still prefer the thread continue as is. The system works well, and we have a culture that lets us discuss any game in the thread even if it has virtually no chance of making the list. Let's not mess too much with a good thing!

 

[Ukghar]

I would say anyone who strongly wants to share their own list of story-focused games should start their own rec thread. Diversity and friendly competition are good things. Adding other people's recommendations to the OP is in my opinion problematic for a number of reasons: it would increase jufot's administrative workload, it would make the OP more chaotic and confusing, and it would likely undermine the criteria jufot set out to define what "story-first" means in his view. I imagine it also wouldn't feel very good to feel obligated to add other people's recommendations to the OP that you might completely disagree with.

Everyone of course has their own opinions. There are games on the list that would never make it on mine if I did one and a fair number of games I esteem will likely never win jufot's favor. I still prefer the thread continue as is. The system works well, and we have a culture that lets us discuss any game in the thread even if it has virtually no chance of making the list. Let's not mess too much with a good thing!

I agree that would add “jufot’s administrative workload.” It’s a valid and important argument. But, with all due respect, from my perspective, the only valid argument from all you provided.

“it would make the OP more chaotic and confusing, and it would likely undermine the criteria jufot set out to define what >>story-first<< means in his view” - As I said, adding “an additional section in the first post called >>People’s recommendations<<” would be great. If putting it in a different part of the post with a name stating that it’s not jufot’s opinion is not enough, the text (under the subtitle “People’s recommendations” or as part of the primary explanation) can state that it’s not jufot’s opinion. Each game can have information about who recommended it and why, as well as even jufot’s personal opinion about the game. That’s the maximum measurement for clarity I can think of for now (likely, there is no need to go that far). The first post would definitely become bigger, but it still can be orderly and transparent.

“I imagine it also wouldn’t feel very good to feel obligated to add other people’s recommendations to the OP that you might completely disagree with.” - It depends on the views/personality. If somebody thinks that only his truth should exist - he would be very uncomfortable with adding others’ opinions for sure. If sb can agree that different views exist and what’s best for himself may not be the best for others and wants to help others - he would be pleased to add other people’s recommendations.

Anyway, tx for your opinion. Even if I mostly disagree, it was good to see it from another perspective.

 

[moskyx]

I agree that would add “jufot’s administrative workload.” It’s a valid and important argument. But, with all due respect, from my perspective, the only valid argument from all you provided.

“it would make the OP more chaotic and confusing, and it would likely undermine the criteria jufot set out to define what >>story-first<< means in his view” - As I said, adding “an additional section in the first post called >>People’s recommendations<<” would be great. If putting it in a different part of the post with a name stating that it’s not jufot’s opinion is not enough, the text (under the subtitle “People’s recommendations” or as part of the primary explanation) can state that it’s not jufot’s opinion. Each game can have information about who recommended it and why, as well as even jufot’s personal opinion about the game. That’s the maximum measurement for clarity I can think of for now (likely, there is no need to go that far). The first post would definitely become bigger, but it still can be orderly and transparent.

“I imagine it also wouldn’t feel very good to feel obligated to add other people’s recommendations to the OP that you might completely disagree with.” - It depends on the views/personality. If somebody thinks that only his truth should exist - he would be very uncomfortable with adding others’ opinions for sure. If sb can agree that different views exist and what’s best for himself may not be the best for others and wants to help others - he would be pleased to add other people’s recommendations.

Anyway, tx for your opinion. Even if I mostly disagree, it was good to see it from another perspective.

He already said it's his own list and no one else's and he's not going to do that, so I don't get the need to keep pushing it. This is not a public service for finding good story-based games but just a personal list that then evolved into a respectful thread discussing them - and many more. It's more about people suggesting new games that may fit the list (and/or maybe qualify for others' in the process) than anything else. If people want broader recommendations and don't want to read the full thread, they should open their own, new thread stating their tastes and asking for new inputs.

 

[Ukghar]

He already said it's his own list and no one else's and he's not going to do that, so I don't get the need to keep pushing it. This is not a public service for finding good story-based games but just a personal list that then evolved into a respectful thread discussing them - and many more. It's more about people suggesting new games that may fit the list (and/or maybe qualify for others' in the process) than anything else. If people want broader recommendations and don't want to read the full thread, they should open their own, new thread stating their tastes and asking for new inputs.

Pushing it? I said: " It would be great, if there would be something like an additional section in the first post called >>People's recommendations<< or something similar with recommendation from other people that didn’t make it to the main jufot’s list for any reason".
I shared my opinion. Am I not allowed to do it? More people share this opinion or similar, and imo they should be able to voice it. I can understand that you may see it as unnecessary to voice similar opinions by lots of people, but by limiting that right, you are greatly unaware of how many people support it, as some people already have a habit of not voicing their opinion if they see similar opinion to theirs.

I also see a weak point in your advice: " If people want broader recommendations and don't want to read the full thread, they should open their own, new thread stating their tastes and asking for new inputs." As you stated yourself, the thread evolved. Most people come here for recommendations of games with well-written stories. Even most of the people who want to discuss these games are here also for recommendations of games with well-written stories. As such, this place is the best to make an aggregating thread of all games with story-first games. Modifying it in that way is also in accordance with the title of this thread - jufot’s didn't title it "Story-first games imo" but "Story-first games." This thread claims by title to collect all the games that put the story first. Making another would bring more chaos and confusion (chaos and confusion is what
EndlessNights is against btw) as all (or most) people interested in games with well-written stories come here. When I can't be 100% sure of turbojoe's and p1n3@5573's opinions, I think that we also trust that jufot wouldn't intentionally omit titles other people had provided if he would agreed to add them. Imo adding people’s recommendations here would be the best possible outcome from a utilitarian point of view.

Sadly, tags like "well-written story" can't fulfill the need for an aggregating thread of all games with well-written stories because lots of devs would add it, even if the games don't deserve it, and some humble devs would omit it, even if their games would deserve it. And mods are against "well-written story" or similar tags. As much as it can differ, players' judgment is still more accurate and objective as the part of loving (or hating) their own creation is absent.

Because of that, at some point, making an aggregating thread of all games with well-written stories without jufot may be sad and ineffective, bringing chaos and confusion only option, if the option of expanding the first post in this thread is unavailable.

Thank you for your post, as tx to it I was able to share my opinion to a greater extent.

 

[EndlessNights]

This thread claims by title to collect all the games that put the story first. Making another would bring more chaos and confusion

The Recommendations & Identification section is designed to house as many rec threads as people want to create. There are already multiple (1) story-focused (2) threads (3) and there will be more in the future -- it's a given and the nature of the beast. None of them have quite taken off like this thread has, true, but to me that just means jufot was on to something when he started the list. His vision has clearly resonated with a lot of users, and he's done a great job maintaining the list and been a fantastic participant in our spirited discussions over the years. He knows what he's doing and I still see no reason to deviate from his original plan.

I would argue that any story-first games list is going to have an element of subjectivity to it. No such thread can be exactly like CBoyC's Lesbian Protagonist Games List and simply collect all games of a specific type based on completely objective criteria. Any list is going to leave games out that have stories that certain people like. However, if you take the approach that everyone should be able to add any game they like to the list with no rigor or oversight we won't be able to really have a thread like this in the first place. It'll turn into a "Games with stories someone liked" thread and over time every adult game with a fan base will inevitably get added to the user-submitted list.

Lots of people no doubt think Summertime Saga and WVM have great stories...their opinions are certainly valid (and I myself have a bit of a soft spot for one of those two games), but I don't think most of the regular audience here comes to this thread looking for super porny recommendations like that. Some people might even decide to add bad games to the list to troll...what mechanism would stop them if every opinion is truly equal? You are concerned about devs abusing a well-written story tag, but they could still add their own games to a user-submitted part of this list unless they are expressly excluded.

In practice, I think we'd end up with two lists -- the "real" list by jufot and the unvetted, unmanageable free-for-all you propose. I don't think that'd be a better situation in any way...in fact, if we can't point to one list as "the list" it's practically like not having a list at all. People could justifiably complain, "What's with all the criticism of Summertime Saga? It's on the list so it's obviously story-first!"

 

[jufot]

The list on the OP is deliberately simple and opinionated. It avoids drama (until now) and bikeshedding. As I've said many times over the years, while the OP is about my taste, the thread is for everyone's. We've discussed and dissected so many games here, including stuff that would never be on F95. Over time, we expanded that to other fiction, narrative devices, realism, and tropes. The way I see it, 99% of this thread's value is in our discussions, not in the list by some random anonymous user who is accountable to no one

This thread has become something I could never have expected. It's a precious corner of a largely unpleasant forum, and I'm loath to change anything about it, lest it loses its magic.

Lots of people no doubt think Summertime Saga and WVM have great stories...their opinions are certainly valid (and I myself have a bit of a soft spot for one of those two games), but I don't think most of the regular audience here comes to this thread looking for super porny recommendations like that.

Right. I know people who think Power Vacuum has a great story. I don't. I think it barely has a coherent thought But I absolutely love the game! It takes pleasure in its self-aware, ridiculous porniness and is consistently on point with its clever yet juvenile humour. I'm happy to talk about it ad nauseam, but I know that this thread isn't the place for it. The same logic applies to adding anything to the OP.

 

[Dragon59]

This thread has become something I could never have expected. It's a precious corner of a largely unpleasant forum, and I'm loath to change anything about it, lest it loses its magic.

Definitely!
The oft-used analogy of "a breath of fresh air."

 

[boobsrcool]

The list on the OP is deliberately simple and opinionated. It avoids drama (until now) and bikeshedding. As I've said many times over the years, while the OP is about my taste, the thread is for everyone's. We've discussed and dissected so many games here, including stuff that would never be on F95. Over time, we expanded that to other fiction, narrative devices, realism, and tropes. The way I see it, 99% of this thread's value is in our discussions, not in the list by some random anonymous user who is accountable to no one

This thread has become something I could never have expected. It's a precious corner of a largely unpleasant forum, and I'm loath to change anything about it, lest it loses its magic.


Right. I know people who think Power Vacuum has a great story. I don't. I think it barely has a coherent thought But I absolutely love the game! It takes pleasure in its self-aware, ridiculous porniness and is consistently on point with its clever yet juvenile humour. I'm happy to talk about it ad nauseam, but I know that this thread isn't the place for it. The same logic applies to adding anything to the OP.

*Stands on desk*
Oh Jufot my Jufot oh Jufot my Jufot

 

[bacienvu88]

I agree with both of you.

It would be great, if there would be something like an additional section in the first post called “People's recommendations” or something similar with recommendation from other people that didn’t make it to the main jufot’s list for any reason.

That way he keeps his reputation of having high standards, and people have more (usually) good games listed to try.

Isn't what you are looking for essentially the weighted rating list? That list is what the users of f95 recommend. The vast majority of the games in top 500 have a story and would be included in your hypthetical list as well.

Or you can check out the

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.

 

[Ukghar]

The Recommendations & Identification section is designed to house as many rec threads as people want to create. There are already multiple (1) story-focused (2) threads (3) and there will be more in the future -- it's a given and the nature of the beast. None of them have quite taken off like this thread has, true, but to me that just means jufot was on to something when he started the list. His vision has clearly resonated with a lot of users, and he's done a great job maintaining the list and been a fantastic participant in our spirited discussions over the years. He knows what he's doing and I still see no reason to deviate from his original plan.

I would argue that any story-first games list is going to have an element of subjectivity to it. No such thread can be exactly like CBoyC's Lesbian Protagonist Games List and simply collect all games of a specific type based on completely objective criteria. Any list is going to leave games out that have stories that certain people like. However, if you take the approach that everyone should be able to add any game they like to the list with no rigor or oversight we won't be able to really have a thread like this in the first place. It'll turn into a "Games with stories someone liked" thread and over time every adult game with a fan base will inevitably get added to the user-submitted list.

Lots of people no doubt think Summertime Saga and WVM have great stories...their opinions are certainly valid (and I myself have a bit of a soft spot for one of those two games), but I don't think most of the regular audience here comes to this thread looking for super porny recommendations like that. Some people might even decide to add bad games to the list to troll...what mechanism would stop them if every opinion is truly equal? You are concerned about devs abusing a well-written story tag, but they could still add their own games to a user-submitted part of this list unless they are expressly excluded.

In practice, I think we'd end up with two lists -- the "real" list by jufot and the unvetted, unmanageable free-for-all you propose. I don't think that'd be a better situation in any way...in fact, if we can't point to one list as "the list" it's practically like not having a list at all. People could justifiably complain, "What's with all the criticism of Summertime Saga? It's on the list so it's obviously story-first!"

The most important is: "(...) I still see no reason to deviate from his [jufot] original plan.".

So, what could be the reason for jufot to deviate from the original plan? The best answer would be: because that action procures the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.

At least some people (different people and periodically) ask to add a separate section in the first post that includes the list of games recommended by other people (or something similar), so it is needed. However, at least some people also don't want it. And at least some people don't care.

The question is how many people are in each group. That's actually a very essential question. If most people are happy with how things are, there is (simplifying) no moral need to change it. What's more, that would be a strong argument (based on morality, democracy, the will of people, etc.) against any changes. Saying that it was already solved in a public poll (because some people won't notice it anyway) and leaving it as a transparent proof is less time-consuming and more effective than having long discussions.

Actually, I prefer to suspend my participation in this discussion before the result comes out.

Ofc, it's up to jufot if he would even make a poll.

 

[kotte]

This thread has become something I could never have expected. It's a precious corner of a largely unpleasant forum, and I'm loath to change anything about it, lest it loses its magic.

Hear, hear!

It's actually the only thread I read here nowadays. Except maybe the one where I keep bugging the site admins to fix the Subscribestar integration so that my byline show what I am actually supporting.

If anyone of you know of another thread, albeit with another topic, that manages to stick to an interesting subject while keeping the trolls out, feel free to recommend it!

 

[Arisushi]

Earlier today, I released the opening act of my visual novel, "Mayura Express".

PC -

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MAC -

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It's not exactly ready for a proper "f95" release yet, as there's still an important part of the story I want to complete before creating a proper thread for it. (And that's going to take some time.)

Right now, it's more or less just a quick introduction to some of its characters.

However, I'd really appreciate if any of you could take a look at it, and share your thoughts on it. (Both the good and the bad)

NOTE: My intention is not to "promote" the game here.

1. I don't have a lot of active audience on my patreon. Those who support me (God bless them), have mostly shown their appreciation through likes.

And as much as I love seeing those little heart symbols, it's not enough to get an idea of what they think about the "finer details" of the game.

2. Being a story-first thread, I hoped the players here won't mind the lack of erotic scenes, and would be happy to appreciate/criticise it for what it is.

---

Long story short, I just want someone to critique my work, and tell me what they liked and what they didn't.

Of course, I do feel a bit awkward about asking this in a forum where I've only been an occasional participant, but...

A few months ago, Jufot said it was okay to share my stuff here and ask for critique. So, I figured I'd just take up on that kind offer.

So, if anyone's up for a quick, 10-15 minutes playthrough, please check out Mayura Express, and share your thoughts with me.

---

(Was that too long for a "Hey guys, please critique my game"?

I'm sorry if it was. It's the first day of the release and I'm a little nervous and desperate for feedback. )

 

[moskyx]

The most important is: "(...) I still see no reason to deviate from his [jufot] original plan.".

So, what could be the reason for jufot to deviate from the original plan? The best answer would be: because that action procures the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.

At least some people (different people and periodically) ask to add a separate section in the first post that includes the list of games recommended by other people (or something similar), so it is needed. However, at least some people also don't want it. And at least some people don't care.

The question is how many people are in each group. That's actually a very essential question. If most people are happy with how things are, there is (simplifying) no moral need to change it. What's more, that would be a strong argument (based on morality, democracy, the will of people, etc.) against any changes. Saying that it was already solved in a public poll (because some people won't notice it anyway) and leaving it as a transparent proof is less time-consuming and more effective than having long discussions.

Actually, I prefer to suspend my participation in this discussion before the result comes out.

Ofc, it's up to jufot if he would even make a poll.

Alternatively, you could just replicate jufot's thread and insert in that list any other game ever mentioned in this thread, and also be ready to update that list every time a new title is discussed or suggested -even if you don't quite agree with the game fitting the 'story-focused' norm. Why 'force' that work on others, if you think it's something so valuable? This is the internet. Just do it yourself. I'm sure many people will applaud your effort.

(And this is exactly why I used 'pushing it'. Even after the OP stated for a second time that he has already decided against it, you still try to convince him otherwise. Even if you are as polite as we all can see, and use all those perfectly built reasonings, there's a point where a smart person knows it's time to concede before risking to come across as an annoying brat. At least you say you won't keep talking about this, let's hope it's true. Because I seriously doubt jufot will ever make that poll).

Other than that, please feel free to suggest new games you think all regulars of this thread might enjoy, and please excuse my manners.

 

[jufot]

The question is how many people are in each group. That's actually a very essential question.

No, it isn't. There is only one question when it comes to the OP: What does jufot want?

Please stop posting about this. The thread was derailed enough.

 

[Help Wanted Games]

Great thread! I can't really offer any advice, but I'll definitely give the games mentioned in the list a try lol

We're actually in the process of creating a game with an awesome backstory, plot twists, and intriguing characters. Right now, we're trying to figure out the best way to make it all work, especially when combining it with adult content. So thanks for this thread and hopefully our game will be on this list in the future too

 

[Raife]

Please stop posting about this. The thread was derailed enough.

"Welcome to the Gogi Restaurant, a Korean Fine Dining Experience, may I show you our menu?"
"Yes please. Hmmm. This all looks boring. I would like to order a cheeseburger."
"Of course, sir. Unfortunately, we do not have cheeseburgers."
"What do you mean!? Cheeseburgers are the best! Most people like cheeseburgers."
"That's true, sir. Cheeseburgers are very popular. We like cheeseburgers. Unfortunately, our chef does not make them."
"That's outrageous!! Besides, if you put some kimchi on a cheeseburger, it would be even better AND Korean."
"Maybe so, sir. But we are a fine dining restaurant. And we only have a tasting menu. So no cheeseburgers."
"Cheeseburgers can be fine dining, if they are quality burgers. Grind some Aberdeen Angus."
"Very good sir. Might I suggest you try one of the 857 burger restaurants within a 2 mile radius?"
"No, I think this restaurant is fine. Or it would be fine, IF you had cheeseburgers."
"That's a very valid opinion, sir. You're probably correct. Sadly, you cannot order a cheeseburger here."
"Look, I can PROVE to you, beyond any doubt, that most people prefer cheeseburgers."
"I agree with you. I'm sure the chef agrees with you. But we are a Korean restaurant."
"Korean food uses meat. And Koreans like cheeseburgers, too. You should have cheeseburgers!"
"Indeed."
"We should have a vote RIGHT now! Raise your hands if you want cheeseburgers!"
"No voting, sir -- it's the chef's restaurant."
"You are so silly. Why won't you listen to reason and just add a few cheeseburgers?"

"Sigh. Quite so sir. But now I must ask you to leave, so that the other diners can enjoy their food in peace."

[With apologies to jufot... ]

Back to the Korean food: Dark Blue says that the _Hillside_ update will be delayed, because his sister is extremely ill. Poor DB. I hope he's OK.

 

[camube]

Great thread! I can't really offer any advice, but I'll definitely give the games mentioned in the list a try lol

We're actually in the process of creating a game with an awesome backstory, plot twists, and intriguing characters. Right now, we're trying to figure out the best way to make it all work, especially when combining it with adult content. So thanks for this thread and hopefully our game will be on this list in the future too

deluca family is story-first with very few adult content and still managed to get a respectable 500 patrons

projekt passion combined story and adult content pretty well and managed to get 800 patrons

both are S-tier for me for different reason and you should play or look at them for possible blueprint
i still remember deluca's story and more importantly, characters, months later after i played, that is not true for many other games. That's how strong the characters are in my mind.

projekt passion leaned more towards comedy, and i think it's hard to replicate because i think classy lemon is just gifted in presenting simplicity combined with good pacing.

there are many other games out there that i think has good story but, they usually don't have that many patrons so i'm not mentioning them here on this post

 

[jufot]

It's been quite a while since we last discussed Intertwined here and I'd like to share my thoughts on the current state of the game as of v0.11.2.

I have a love/hate relationship with Intertwined these days, and I want to end this on a high note, so let's start with the negatives:

Spoiler: What Intertwined gets wrong

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Spoiler: What Intertwined gets right

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[jufot]

So, if anyone's up for a quick, 10-15 minutes playthrough, please check out Mayura Express, and share your thoughts with me.

It's a good start! India is an interesting choice for setting, and the first scene reminded me of the beginning of

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which is a great film to be compared to

 

[camube]

i don't know if intertwined is even "story-first", maybe it is, but i wouldn't say that it is well-written.

i like one of the character and that's the only reason i continue to play it.

that's pretty much my thought on intertwined.