Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

Anyone see the consent changes in the terms & conditions for Pateron. I wonder if it will impact what story telling mechanisms authors can take. I do not care so much for sleep sex, but rather certain topics where consent not given willingly as part of the story would now need to be avoided.

This is just legal arse covering by Patreon, likely demanded by payment processors. Patreon itself doesn't care. I've reported devs creating underage rape stuff - they didn't care, saying none of the Patreon posts linked directly to it. I don't bother anymore.

 

[moskyx]

I'm truly sorry for devs creating actual BDSM fictional content, as this ban on 'consensual non-consent' works might throw them under the bus. Sometimes, the roleplay includes that act of 'not consenting' even though everything is consensual. Other than that, I very much welcome this clarification on what's allowed and what's not, if it really comes with proper enforcement (which I doubt, seeing Jufot's experience). Let's be honest, the rules have been there for ages and most devs are perfectly aware that they were exploiting the system, as their works were obviously breaching the old ToS. Now they don't have any justification to whine about being unfairly targeted and deplatformed.

 

[Cskin Games]

I'm truly sorry for devs creating actual BDSM fictional content, as this ban on 'consensual non-consent' works might throw them under the bus. Sometimes, the roleplay includes that act of 'not consenting' even though everything is consensual. Other than that, I very much welcome this clarification on what's allowed and what's not, if it really comes with proper enforcement (which I doubt, seeing Jufot's experience). Let's be honest, the rules have been there for ages and most devs are perfectly aware that they were exploiting the system, as their works were obviously breaching the old ToS. Now they don't have any justification to whine about being unfairly targeted and deplatformed.

The changes to the consent wording may represent a change in policy, or it may just represent a re-wording for clarity, and it's still unclear. Most of the rest of the "changes" weren't actual changes, just clarification - but if you think for a second devs will stop crying about being "unfairly targeted and banned from patreon" boy do I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[Garou24]

It will be interesting to see where Pateron draws the line on this. The upcoming release for my game has an attempted rape scene, a woman is pushed to the ground as a man grabs at her clothing. This is stopped by the introduction of a character in the story. Such an act is part of her background as she physically bears the scars of a similar attack from her past. It's very possible the attempt will fall under the sexual harassment or consent sections of Pateron even though I am not trying to glamorize it or actually have the scene play out.

 

[moskyx]

It will be interesting to see where Pateron draws the line on this. The upcoming release for my game has an attempted rape scene, a woman is pushed to the ground as a man grabs at her clothing. This is stopped by the introduction of a character in the story. Such an act is part of her background as she physically bears the scars of a similar attack from her past. It's very possible the attempt will fall under the sexual harassment or consent sections of Pateron even though I am not trying to glamorize it or actually have the scene play out.

If it's basically a threat, a rape attempt that's quickly dismantled (and somehow punished) before it gets anywhere near sexualizing it, it shouldn't be a problem. The way I see it, it's the fetishization of that situation, the explicit display of a non-consensual encounter, that would get you banned. But... yeah, we'll see.

 

[jamdan]

In my thread about Gumroad banning adult content, someone posted a Patreon response to the non-consensual stuff.


https://f95zone.to/threads/gumroad-to-ban-most-nsfw-content.200027/post-13219058

So yeah, "consent" seems to be very arbitrary and more or less dependent on presentation if anything.

 

[jamdan]

If anything, these new rules may hit FMC games the hardest. Beyond mind control games, obviously.

Because in most, if not almost all FMC games, the FMC getting blackmailed and non-consensually groped is basically the entire story. Also many MMC corruption games.

BDSM is a tough spot too. I suppose you can establish consent pre-scene and re-establish it post-scene, but the actual BDSM segments need to be reasonably sanitized just to be sure.


I hope games like Harem Hotel and A Mothers Love aren't hurt by this.

Harem Hotel, technically, has slavery. But the entire plot of the game is based around ending that slavery.

A Mothers Love, technically, has blackmail. But the plot of the game is based around that blackmail turning into a romance.


Overall, any sane developer needs to have a SubscribeStar account and try to push fans there. Patreon continually tightening the screws is going to become untenable for anything beyond vanilla romance eventually.

 

[camube]

Pale Carnations new update is coming out soon.

I've been waiting for this update for years.

Btw, what's a "well-known member", is that cuz we posts too much or cuz of the number of likes we got?

cuz if it's because we posts too much, i need to scale back on posting other than in story-first games thread, lol

 

[Éama]

I'm truly sorry for devs creating actual BDSM fictional content, as this ban on 'consensual non-consent' works might throw them under the bus. Sometimes, the roleplay includes that act of 'not consenting' even though everything is consensual. Other than that, I very much welcome this clarification on what's allowed and what's not, if it really comes with proper enforcement (which I doubt, seeing Jufot's experience). Let's be honest, the rules have been there for ages and most devs are perfectly aware that they were exploiting the system, as their works were obviously breaching the old ToS. Now they don't have any justification to whine about being unfairly targeted and deplatformed.

Personally I would hope that creators take the time to depict the moment where both parties agree to the BDSM setup (there are many different variations how this could play out). It's not sending the right message to viewers when it is somehow implied. I also think that this moment can be a very intimate and intriguing in and on itself, at least if your intention is to write erotica and not abuse porn.

 

[EndlessNights]

Pale Carnations new update is coming out soon.

I've been waiting for this update for years.

Btw, what's a "well-known member", is that cuz we posts too much or cuz of the number of likes we got?

cuz if it's because we posts too much, i need to scale back on posting other than in story-first games thread, lol

I'm definitely looking forward to the new PC update as well!

Yeah, your well-known member title just has to do with the number of posts you've made. It's an achievement -- be proud! Congratulations, by the way. If you think you post too much, bear in mind that cxx has over 55,000 posts now. There's definitely no need to hold back. You don't want to find yourself one day reflecting on your deathbed, "If I'd only made a few hundred more F95zone posts, I could've been a Conversation Conqueror!"

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On the subject of the Patreon TOS update, payment processors being de facto censors of art in this space doesn't strike me as being a good thing, but from a story-first perspective the results might not be bad for us. I genuinely think the incest crackdown lead to us getting better adult games in the long run because there were so, so many utterly generic mom and sister games being made before that happened. It forced devs to veer away from mindlessly following a formula they hoped would lead to easy money and more in the direction of originality and taking creative chances. I'm hopeful we might start getting more good female protagonist games as a result of the clarification instead of the same old corruption/sexual harassment/blackmail/rape story that gets endlessly repackaged. It might lead to better games about infidelity as well since generic NTR games also tend to lean heavily on corruption and often incorporate blackmail and rape into the plot.

I won't miss fetishized rape scenes one bit because I hate them, but like others in this thread I do have some concern the policies might be enforced too strictly to the detriment of good storytelling and perhaps endanger some high quality or interesting projects. One game I worry about is Alpha Omega. I personally felt conflicted about Ezykeyal actually visually showing the rape scene the way that he did in the last update despite its undeniable impact -- on one hand, it was a very visceral, upsetting experience and really brought home the trauma of the moment, but I also felt conscious that other people would likely be seeing the same thing as just another sex scene in a porn game and get turned on by it without empathizing with the victim at all. On the BDSM side, Karlsson's Gambit shows plenty of nonconsensual abuse, but it is also deliberately depicting a dystopian and incredibly unequal society. For me, anyway, my goal as the MC is to change or destroy the status quo, and I think that journey will in the end be more rewarding because we know just how evil the existing system is. (Of course, definitely not all the abuse scenes are necessary to achieve that storytelling goal, and not everything needs to be depicted visually in the first place.) The Shadow over Blackmore honestly strikes me as being more straight-up horror than BDSM at this point. I can't think of a single scene in that game I found particularly erotic, but it's definitely got some very gripping, uncomfortably intense moments and atmosphere out the wazoo. I'm not sure a 100% consensual story in that world would even be possible.

 

[Grimnir098]

Personally I would hope that creators take the time to depict the moment where both parties agree to the BDSM setup (there are many different variations how this could play out). It's not sending the right message to viewers when it is somehow implied. I also think that this moment can be a very intimate and intriguing in and on itself, at least if your intention is to write erotica and not abuse porn.

That's irrelevant to Patreon's rules. If a character is ever shown to be 'resistant', even after a discussion where both parties agree, then it is considered a violation of the rules. CNC play is explicitly stated to be a violation of the rules.
A Patreon employee responded to artist Yeougui, stating that even though both characters gave verbal consent, the fact that one character was displaying significant signs of resistance and distress in their artwork would be enough to make the artwork a violation of the rules.

 

[Éama]

That's irrelevant to Patreon's rules. If a character is ever shown to be 'resistant', even after a discussion where both parties agree, then it is considered a violation of the rules. NCN play is explicitly stated to be a violation of the rules.
A Patreon employee responded to artist Yeougui, stating that even though both characters gave verbal consent, the fact that one character was displaying significant signs of resistance and distress in their artwork would be enough to make the artwork a violation of the rules.

Concerning BDSM: This why safewords exist. I doubt that patreon would ban someone for the use of BDSM rules. If you start a BDSM play without a safeword, how are you going to know if you crossed the line towards rape or torture? That's definitely going to happen if there is no way to safely express that you changed your mind.

If we are talking about abuse porn: I find it disturbing how widespread and normal it is or has become. It's literally impossible to play a game with tags like corruption that does not contain sexual violence. We literally have a rape tag on here, I mean... come on! Even hardcore porn sites have cracked down on these tags and content. And like porn sites, there will always be grey areas.

It's not that I am in favor of prohibitions in general. I live in a country that prevents me from accessing anything adult on Steam for instance. That's the opposite of what I want. But a healthier relationship between sexuality and AVN development would be nice. As it is right now, I have to stop playing every other AVN because it is becoming abusive and negatively influences my relationship with my own sexuality. Some of the most popular games on here are constant abuse, rape and destruction. Some people whose opinion I rate highly even say that they don't see anything wrong with it. It's not right that abuse porn is one of the gold standards for selling copies, it really isn't.

 

[Grimnir098]

Concerning BDSM: This why safewords exist. I doubt that patreon would ban someone for the use of BDSM rules. If you start a BDSM play without a safeword, how are you going to know if you crossed the line towards rape or torture? That's definitely going to happen if there is no way to safely express that you changed your mind.

"Consensual non-consent" works, in which participants or characters engage in simulated non-consensual encounters, are not permitted.
That is from Patreon's updated rules. I don't know why you're commenting on this issue if you haven't read it.
If CNC play was allowed so long as it is made clear there is a safeword, then I'm sure Patreon would say so. That stipulation is pretty important. It's literally the difference between CNC play being allowed (under certain circumstances) and being entirely banned no matter what.
It's possible what you're saying is true, but who would roll the dice on that? This literally affects your income as a creator.

If we are talking about abuse porn: I find it disturbing how widespread and normal it is or has become. It's literally impossible to play a game with tags like corruption that does not contain sexual violence. We literally have a rape tag on here, I mean... come on! Even hardcore porn sites have cracked down on these tags and content. And like porn sites, there will always be grey areas.

It's not that I am in favor of prohibitions in general. I live in a country that prevents me from accessing anything adult on Steam for instance. That's the opposite of what I want. But a healthier relationship between sexuality and AVN development would be nice. As it is right now, I have to stop playing every other AVN because it is becoming abusive and negatively influences my relationship with my own sexuality. Some of the most popular games on here are constant abuse, rape and destruction. Some people whose opinion I rate highly even say that they don't see anything wrong with it. It's not right that abuse porn is one of the gold standards for selling copies, it really isn't.

I think most people have a perfectly fine relationship between sexuality and AVNs. These things are fantasies.
Having a fantasy about raping or being raped does not mean you want that in real life. It's just a fantasy.
Having a fantasy about raping or being raped does not mean you are unhealthy in some way. It's just a fantasy.
Playing an AVN where things like that happen is a totally healthy way of fulfilling those kinds of desires, just like engaging in BDSM when all the rules are followed.
Just because you personally don't like something doesn't mean there's something wrong with it.

 

[Éama]

It's possible what you're saying is true, but who would roll the dice on that? This literally affects your income."

I wouldn't create a game like that. But if that was my intention, I would orient myself more in line with what the member of the patreon team said above. So, I would adjust my visual representation of consensual non-consent rather than to avoid it entirely. Or I would do it like the developer of "Friends in Need" and do two paths and make the second one like an incest patch. Works right now, doesn't it? Most of these things are technicalities more than anything. The status quo has been changed and that makes developers who dance on the line nervous, I get that. But incest has been banned for how long now? Two years? And it's everywhere.

Just because you personally don't like something doesn't mean there's something wrong with it.

Yeah, let's just pretend that there is no relationship between sexuality and let's say porn and porn games. Because that makes perfect sense. Let us just agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Grimnir098]

I wouldn't create a game like that. But if that was my intention, I would orient myself more in line with what the member of the patreon team said above. So, I would adjust my visual representation of consensual non-consent rather than to avoid it entirely.

To be clear, your visual representation of consensual non-consent would need to be non-existent, because that is what Patreon demands. They explicitly state that consensual non-consent is not permitted.
I'm not sure if you understand that, so I'm trying to be as clear as possible.
What you're saying communicates that you think Patreon allows consensual non-consent under certain circumstances, but I don't know how you could think that if you read the portion of their rules which talks about CNC which I quoted in my last reply, hence my confusion.

Or I would do it like the developer of "Friends in Need" and do two paths and make the second one like an incest patch. Works right now, doesn't it? Most of these things are technicalities more than anything. The status quo has been changed and that makes developers who dance on the line nervous, I get that. But incest has been banned for how long now? Two years? And it's everywhere.

I'm not sure why you think something being functional means it's good or that the alternative (in this case, payment processors not censoring artists through websites like Patreon) wouldn't be better.
It's not like Patreon's rules don't make the product objectively worse.
I would say the incest patch is the best solution, but even that risks players not seeing it and playing without it, like I originally did with Elvensang.
Incest still being popular doesn't mean anything.

By the way, it's not just creators who dance on the line who are nervous. As far as I know, there was never any indication that you couldn't depict CNC play on Patreon. Now it's banned. Previously, people who depicted that were not dancing on the line.

This doesn't even just impact people who depict CNC play. First they banned incest and rape. Now it's CNC play. Given that payment processors have forced other websites to restrict NSFW content, or in Gumroad's case, ban it entirely, there's no reason to think Patreon isn't going to continue banning types of erotic content, or potentially all of it.

Yeah, let's just pretend that there is no relationship between sexuality and let's say porn and porn games. Because that makes perfect sense. Let us just agree to disagree on this one.

Looking back, I think the way I replied to your point was a little confusing, but I definitely never said there was no relationship between sexuality and porn/porn games.
My point was that rape being present in many porn games is not an indication of an unhealthy relationship between sexuality and AVN development.

 

[moskyx]

By the way, it's not just creators who dance on the line who are nervous. As far as I know, there was never any indication that you couldn't depict rape or CNC play on Patreon. Now they're banned. Previously, people who depicted those things were not dancing on the line, because the line was drawn around incest.

That's simply not true. Rape and non-consensual sex have always been banned (at least since 2017). Rules weren't as explicit as now, and enforcement has always been kind of relaxed, but the prohibition was always there (exceptions: survivors stories and some other non-fetishing cases).

 

[Grimnir098]

That's simply not true. Rape and non-consensual sex have always been banned (at least since 2017). Rules weren't as explicit as now, and enforcement has always been kind of relaxed, but the prohibition was always there (exceptions: survivors stories and some other non-fetishing cases).

Just looked at their community guidelines page from a month ago with the Wayback Machine, and while it's true that rape was banned, there's no reason to think CNC play was banned just going by what they said.
"Fictional content that glorifies domestic violence and other intimate partner violence."
That's obviously not CNC play.

 

[FlimsyLegs]

For me, it would be a question of whether the narrative actually pays off anywhere near enough to make up for the utter misery of the experience. It probably wouldn't be worth it for me given my stomach for sexual brutality and anything noncon. I thought mizuno_j wrote a critique that sounded both pretty definitive and quite damning. Do you disagree with that take?

The relationship sounds utterly coercive from beginning to end from what I can tell from browsing the game thread. The MC is an android who is treated as property and used as a sex toy. If she tries to resist that fate she is brutalized in extreme ways. If she submits, she's treated "better" but still used as a sex toy. She nonetheless seems to develop some sort of kinship or acceptance for her abuser on all routes (perhaps faked if secretly defiant?) that is apparently ascribed to Stockholm syndrome or not really explained at all. If that's anywhere near an accurate summation, it sounds less like a story about a real abusive relationship and more of an excuse for brutal scenes.

Sort of. Not as much with the characterisation of the man but rather with the evaluation of the quality of the story. While the violence is graphic it never struck me as gratuitous nor did the game try to endorse or make up any moral excuses for the behaviour. I completely understand how one might find subject matter of the game revolting and repulsive but at the same time saying that the character in the game is not some romanticized softcore BDSM enthusiast and is a "sadist" is like saying that Hannibal Lecter is a cannibal. It's not surprising.

The plot point mentioned (inaccurately, I might add) happens I think about 1/3 if not 1/4th into the story so making a judgment about the entire game is premature, especially if it's based solely on personal preference.

I completely agree that it is most definitely not the game for everyone (or most people, really) though.

Hi, developer of Animus Non Grata here. I agree with everything that the two of you discussed about the pain points in the game. However, the scene with the forced piss drinking for example hasn't existed in the past few versions of the game. And in the soon-to-be-out version 0.11.0 the non-con / defiant path has been reworked heavily in terms of motivation and feel behind the non-con actions (without heavily modifying the scenes and things done). The new direction for the non-con path hopefully works better as a story, and better alongside the rest of the narrative. Version 0.11.0 is hopefully out in about a week.

 

[moskyx]

Just looked at their community guidelines page from a month ago with the Wayback Machine, and while it's true that rape was banned, there's no reason to think CNC play was banned just going by what they said.
"Fictional content that glorifies domestic violence and other intimate partner violence."
That's obviously not CNC play.

Yep, that's the main (and concerning) addition

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

The latest act of Twin Eclipse is now out, and I would love to hear some feedback on it. (from both those who have AND have not tried the 0.1 version)

It's a simple but (hopefully) effective act that leads to the first big event of the story - that may or may not have been influenced by some real life circumstances which forced me to get a little recklessly creative.

---

PS: Taking up the advice from some of the kind members here, I requested a thread for it and it seems to have been approved I'm really glad it worked out in that regards.

Even if most people are going to skip the game after seeing the "No sexual content" tag, it will still garner a lot more eyes on the game than if I hadn't requested a thread. So, thank you very much for suggesting that.