Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

So I guess that's why Raife and some others said that the sort of people who are in the game would never be interested in joining such a show - since my inspiration was taken from the Korean shows, not the western ones, the participants are also of the sort that you could see in the shows I have watched, not the western ones.

Thanks a lot for the positive comments once again, I'm really happy that you have enjoyed the first episode!

Yeah, I was thinking Western reality TV... particularly _The Bachelor_ which I watched with a younger cousin of mine on visits to the US. I used to tell her that the show was an excellent guide to identifying men she should avoid like the plague.

Those Korean shows sound a lot less horrible... and fit the very decent-seeming LIs you've created. (Although, to be fair, that first scene set me up to think we were going to see a particularly slimy Western reality TV scenario... like _Love Island_.)

BTW, unless you've prepared some curve balls, I can tell you right now that the teacher and 'grandma' are going to be my favourites...

 

[jufot]

The _dumbest_ has involved hounding the dev of a new game, False Promises, for failing to make the (much) younger sister of the MC an LI... despite the fact that it is a non-incest tagged game. It's like watching a blast of pure stupidity antimatter collide with perverted matter and create a massive release of raw asinine energy.

I just read through that thread and damn, what a complete shit show... Just when I feel like I'm finally getting my misanthropy in check, you link me to that thread and I find myself wishing that 64th trimester abortions were a thing

 

[noping123]

Ha! I love the idea of a dev standing around in the middle of a room by himself, talking through dialogue like a madman! In all seriousness, it sounds like a great way to test your draft text.

Separate subject: you can develop the MC's character a bit without devoting 'screen time' specifically to the MC's backstory... it can simply emerge during the course of the dialogue and player choice.

At any rate, I very much look forward to Chapter 3, and to following your game.

Thanks for that. Right now my biggest issue is finding an audience - if people play my game and hate it, that's ok, I'm just trying to convince people to give it a chance at first. That's the most difficult part- so I appreciate you took the time, and obviously thrilled you enjoyed it.

I'll consider trying to figure out how to make the MC shine through a bit more - I've been adamant I will not take suggestions that would change the story, but that isn't one - it's just one that might help me tell the story I want better, so I'll consider it while I'm crafting new chapters. Still, it's hard sometimes when my boring ass self is used as the dialogue template a lot of the time - but I already have to step outside that for certain dialogue choices I personally would never make - so I don't think doing it to expand his character would hurt. I'll think on it.

And yes. I do often look like a lunatic. Especially when the neighbors are outside and I left my window open............

 

[jufot]

I've been adamant I will not take suggestions that would change the story

Good for you! Very few devs have the guts to do that

 

[Raife]

Thanks for that. Right now my biggest issue is finding an audience - if people play my game and hate it, that's ok, I'm just trying to convince people to give it a chance at first. That's the most difficult part- so I appreciate you took the time, and obviously thrilled you enjoyed it.

I'll consider trying to figure out how to make the MC shine through a bit more - I've been adamant I will not take suggestions that would change the story, but that isn't one - it's just one that might help me tell the story I want better, so I'll consider it while I'm crafting new chapters.

Old jufot is spot on, noping... you have a _exactly_ the right attitude: stick with your vision and I'm sure that the payoff will materialize.

I'd suggest that the key is to hook people on either the story or the sex (or both)... episodically produced games are a bit like old serial or epistolary novels... you need to have the reader primed and eager to jump in to the next episode. Most of the successful games on jufot's list accomplish that.

I'm encouraged that 'friend-of-the-thread' badtimestales now has over 30 supporters, following his latest release... he has shown the guts to say 'no' to punters in his game's thread who demand that the MC do things that don't fit the character or the story he wants to tell. That sort of fidelity to the dev's narrative vision is what we want to see.

 

[Jaike]

Yes, to be completely honest, I've never seen Big Brother/Love Island or anything of the sort. I've seen a few Korean dating reality shows, and that's where the idea for the game came from. Those shows were probably much tamer than the western ones and the participants were pretty normal, often quite accomplished and intelligent, down-to-Earth people. So I guess that's why Raife and some others said that the sort of people who are in the game would never be interested in joining such a show - since my inspiration was taken from the Korean shows, not the western ones, the participants are also of the sort that you could see in the shows I have watched, not the western ones.

Thanks a lot for the positive comments once again, I'm really happy that you have enjoyed the first episode!

I've never watched them either, I wasn't even born yet when the original season of Big Brother was aired. One of the local versions of those Island shows had a big scandal a few years ago, unsurprisingly because of sexual assault.

Yeah tamer shows like that may exist here, doubt they are as much of a thing in popular culture.

But like Raife said, the scene with Katherine at the beginning made me expect something worse.

Yeah, I was thinking Western reality TV... particularly _The Bachelor_ which I watched with a younger cousin of mine on visits to the US. I used to tell her that the show was an excellent guide to identifying men she should avoid like the plague.

Those Korean shows sound a lot less horrible... and fit the very decent-seeming LIs you've created. (Although, to be fair, that first scene set me up to think we were going to see a particularly slimy Western reality TV scenario... like _Love Island_.)

BTW, unless you've prepared some curve balls, I can tell you right now that the teacher and 'grandma' are going to be my favourites...

I think I prefer the nerdier ones, in the order Ayaka, Diana, Richard ehm... Maya. If things stay as they seem I'll check the solo route with Ayaka.

It's a good thing we don't have to reach a compromise on a route, Raife. The MC would for sure get hooked up with Ayaka and Evelyn, only to run off in madness when the month is over. Ayaka and Evelyn's marriage would then go on to become the subject of a new reality TV show, saving Katherine's career.

The _dumbest_ has involved hounding the dev of a new game, False Promises, for failing to make the (much) younger sister of the MC a LI... despite the fact that it is a non-incest tagged game. It's like watching a blast of pure stupidity antimatter collide with perverted matter and create a massive release of raw asinine energy.

Wait, wait, wait... is this "the much younger sister"? She looks like she's in her early teens!

I just read through that thread and damn, what a complete shit show... Just when I feel like I'm finally getting my misanthropy in check, you link me to that thread and I find myself wishing that 64th trimester abortions were a thing

You need to get rid of some... 15¼-years olds?

 

[Raife]

Wait, wait, wait... is this "the much younger sister"? She looks like she's in her early teens!

It's not the _age_ of the non-LI younger sister that is the issue, Jaike... if they want to play Humbert Humbert in _Lolita_, I'm fine if somebody wants to create that game.

The idiocy is the outraged hyperventilation about the lack of incest in a non-incest game, which is every bit as moronic as complaining about the lack of vore in a non-vore game! There was also extended bizarre huffing to the effect "how dare the dev create a sexy teen sister that my MC cannot have sex with" which certainly is not a point in favour of the ranters.

Once or perhaps twice, someone has asked jufot in this thread whether there are adult games that depict strong, platonic brother-sister relationships... there certainly aren't very many. Perhaps the replies in that thread point to one reason why.

I mostly felt sorry for the dev, who bent over backwards to be polite.

 

[Raife]

I think mainstream popularity is more about having a non-submissive male protagonist and avoiding certain content. Because a large share of the paying customers are self-inserting men.

I think you're broadly right.

A non-submissive male MC definitely seems highly correlated with mainstream adult game success. If sqwl endowed Edward (the MC in _Corporate Culture_) with a slightly less passive personality, I suspect that game would be much, much more successful (although I'd also find it less interesting).

Avoiding 'certain content' while preserving the dev's narrative can be very tricky, though. Anti-NTR fanaticism makes it tough to include uh, 'intact,' sexually mature, non-elderly males as significant non-LI characters. Attractive women who are not LIs also seem to be an increasing problem for some players... even off-limits sisters seem to annoy some of them!

So yeah... there's something of a formula. But the devs I love the most tend to ignore it completely, even if it costs them, restricts their fanbase, or attracts trolls.

 

[Tlaero]

Once or perhaps twice, someone has asked jufot in this thread whether there are adult games that depict strong, platonic brother-sister relationships... there certainly aren't very many. Perhaps the replies in that thread point to one reason why.

If you're on Patreon, you simply can not do that. When I was writing Coming to Grips with Christine, I explicitly asked if two adult sisters could have a consensual sexual relationship with an unrelated man, and their response was an unequivocal "No."

If you can't do that then anything brother-sister would be completely out.

Tlaero

Edit: Okay, you said "platonic." Maybe Patreon would allow that, but I doubt it.

 

[Dragon59]

Yes, to be completely honest, I've never seen Big Brother/Love Island or anything of the sort. I've seen a few Korean dating reality shows, and that's where the idea for the game came from. Those shows were probably much tamer than the western ones and the participants were pretty normal, often quite accomplished and intelligent, down-to-Earth people. So I guess that's why Raife and some others said that the sort of people who are in the game would never be interested in joining such a show - since my inspiration was taken from the Korean shows, not the western ones, the participants are also of the sort that you could see in the shows I have watched, not the western ones.

Thanks a lot for the positive comments once again, I'm really happy that you have enjoyed the first episode!

The only Korean Reality/Game show I've seen is Squid Game. I have to admit that one was pretty intense.

 

[Dragon59]

I'll consider trying to figure out how to make the MC shine through a bit more - I've been adamant I will not take suggestions that would change the story, but that isn't one - it's just one that might help me tell the story I want better, so I'll consider it while I'm crafting new chapters. Still, it's hard sometimes when my boring ass self is used as the dialogue template a lot of the time - but I already have to step outside that for certain dialogue choices I personally would never make - so I don't think doing it to expand his character would hurt. I'll think on it.

And yes. I do often look like a lunatic. Especially when the neighbors are outside and I left my window open............

So far, my only intended content polls are for my Steampunk game. I have outlined a number of mysterious missions for the MC to go on, and might (when none are required to be done first) to let the patrons/subscriber make suggestions.


My contemporary polyamory project? I really have the expansion of events planned. I don't think I want to let others decide which NPCs will become dateable.


My current science fiction story is an isolated story (in more than one way) that should be completed in moths rather than years, so there really won't be much opportunity.

I am perfectly fine when developers have multiple arcs they can work on to let the supporters vote on which one to do this time. Unfortunately, it can backfire even then with some character arcs languishing for the longest time (i.e. Judith in Summertime Saga).

Sorry if posting images for them is considered bad form. I don't have threads for them yet.

 

[Raife]

If you're on Patreon, you simply can not do that. When I was writing Coming to Grips with Christine, I explicitly asked if two adult sisters could have a consensual sexual relationship with an unrelated man, and their response was an unequivocal "No."

If you can't do that then anything brother-sister would be completely out.

Tlaero

Edit: Okay, you said "platonic." Maybe Patreon would allow that, but I doubt it.

Just to clarify: I'm talking about a story that features a normal, affectionate, platonic (no sex or inappropriate touching) relationship between a brother and sister... no shared sexual partners... no nothing. Surely, that must be allowed?

In the game in question, the male MC's mother dies and he ends up as guardian to his younger sister. This relationship becomes the focus of some drama and stress for him, because she experiences (non-sexual) bullying in school. The dev has written the relationship as close, mutually dependent and entirely non-sexual... and says that he has no intention of changing that dynamic.

Again, for clarity... we're not talking about an LI here. We are discussing a non-LI, vulnerable family member of the MC that a braying group of loons on this site keeps demanding that the dev transform into a LI. It's a discouraging spectacle.

 

[Raife]

BTW, Tlaero -- Watching Lindsey Jacobellis's redemption arc at this Olympics reminded me very strongly of some of your protagonists. Her single, catastrophic mistake almost two decades ago, subsequent mental struggles, and spectacular, exuberant and improbable triumph at the age of 36 made me (ahem) pretty 'misty'.

I hope that you can catch the coverage of her events, particularly the outstanding BBC race commentary (

You must be registered to see the links

and

You must be registered to see the links

-- you might need a VPN to access it outside the UK) as well as the NYT coverage (

You must be registered to see the links

and

You must be registered to see the links

).

It's a sign of how profoundly your writing has affected my worldview... I see something lovely like this (amidst a highly dubious Olympic spectacle) and immediately think of your characters. Our failures/traumas need not define us... if we are resilient and brave, and persevere...

 

[Tlaero]

Again, for clarity... we're not talking about an LI here. We are discussing a non-LI, vulnerable family member of the MC that a braying group of loons on this site keeps demanding that the dev transform into a LI. It's a discouraging spectacle.

Probably (?) okay. But the chilling effect is real. In a similar vein, if you're on Steam and you have sex in your game, you can't have ANY characters who are, or appear to be, younger than 18. Doesn't matter that the characters never have or witness sex or get naked, etc. Steam will remove all of your games without warning, not tell you why, and not give you any chance of appeal.

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

In a similar vein, if you're on Steam and you have sex in your game, you can't have ANY characters who are, or appear to be, younger than 18

Unless you're a big studio, of course. If you're bringing in millions in revenue, they don't care about content unless it's literally illegal to publish. Such a shame...

 

[vneotpolemus]

A non-submissive male MC definitely seems highly correlated with mainstream adult game success. If sqwl endowed Edward (the MC in _Corporate Culture_) with a slightly less passive personality, I suspect that game would be much, much more successful (although I'd also find it less interesting).

I think it goes deeper than this. Narrative driven AAA games are all power fantasies one way or another. Maybe it's something to do with the interactive nature of the medium, maybe it's just that power fantasies are really popular. There are plenty of successful games with MCs who are glorified props (I've got a rant stored up about that), but they get around it by having the LIs throw themselves at them.

Corporate Culture is probably disliked because it calls out the Edward's passiveness, and worse still, has a woman call him out. It'd be more popular we got to payoff of Edward's realization that he needs to stop being so passive. Unfortunately leaping to that would wreck the story arc, so we're stuck with 'the problem with serialized games'.

 

[Dragon59]

Probably (?) okay. But the chilling effect is real. In a similar vein, if you're on Steam and you have sex in your game, you can't have ANY characters who are, or appear to be, younger than 18. Doesn't matter that the characters never have or witness sex or get naked, etc. Steam will remove all of your games without warning, not tell you why, and not give you any chance of appeal.

Tlaero

Ugh! That is very unfortunate. My contemporary game is about a polyamorous community, and families usually play a big part in the social structure, especially issues of collective parenting that occasionally happens. It has always been a factor that tended to distinguish polyamory from swinging way back in the late eighties, early nineties.

 

[TheimmortalP]

Again, thanks so much for making this topic. While I'm not as strict as you are, character driven games where the characters truly feel like actual people are what I'm looking to play.

By any chance, have you played Summer Scent? It's my favorite game of its kind. I find the MC so relatable as a former chud.

Also, if I can recommend my favorite non-sexual visual novel, I can't recommend Graveyard Girls enough. It's a free title that you can find on itch.io. It's over in like 20 minutes, but I tell ya, it's gonna be 20 of the most emotionally amazing moments you will have in your life. It's gonna make you feel all sorts of different emotions.

 

[jufot]

By any chance, have you played Summer Scent?

SS was discussed here a few months ago, starting here.

I can't recommend Graveyard Girls enough.

Will check it out, thanks!

 

[Mystic]

I'm here just because I saw this.


666 Replies? I will not tolerate this cult forming.