Recommending Story-first games

[desmosome]

I'm playing through chapter 9 of Intertwined and I really feel like the dev messed up with the step family. I guess patreon rules was the main reason the dev went with this progression (random Andreas cheating out of nowhere), but it undermines and prevents some promising scenarios.

First of all, it ruins Andreas' character. He was built up as a complex character until this point in the story. He was dealt a shitty hand and made the best of it. If nothing else, he was a supportive father. Most of the character assassination happens after the cheating reveal. It almost seems like retconning to paint him as a villain that we are suppose to dislike to justify the cancelled wedding.

Personally, if a dude raised me from birth to adulthood, that guy would be my father. I can't really understand at all this MC's reaction to finding out he isn't the biological father. Like immediately referring to him as Andreas and "not dad." Maybe I just can't wrap my head around this because I have no personal experience with it.

Other than the general appeal of the forbidden relationship, the bigger problem is Nikki/Cora's place among the girls. They go from having some unique connection and relationship dynamic to the MC to just being another potential girlfriend among many. The biggest wasted potential is that if they were step siblings, they (MC and the Nikki/Cora) would both have incentives to pursue a secret relationship. It has so much potential for desire vs reality conflicts and also unique situations with other girls. Like MC's other LI could find them together but give it a pass because they are siblings. Things like that.

My run is focused on Layla and Nikki, and I'm not even sure what's happening right now. I hedged my bet and got the Nikki_Visit_Knows flag by telling her that I am dating someone (after hugging her first). This doesn't stop you from doing sexy times with Nikki, but the game isn't really calling this flag to alter anything yet. The progression seems weird.

 

[noping123]

My run is focused on Layla and Nikki, and I'm not even sure what's happening right now. I hedged my bet and got the Nikki_Visit_Knows flag by telling her that I am dating someone (after hugging her first). This doesn't stop you from doing sexy times with Nikki, but the game isn't really calling this flag to alter anything yet. The progression seems weird.

I can't really speak to the devs intentions, or anything else for that matter, but something I learned really quickly - FLAG EVERYTHING. Even if you have no intention of using it at all. I learned this when writing Chapter 2 (and 3. Luckily I learned my lesson for good so it won't happen again) - I wrote some stuff for the chapter then realized "Wait. If choice B was made earlier, then this interaction doesn't make sense, so I need to account for both scenarios, otherwise the logic completely falls apart". At the time I released Ch2 I didn't think these things would have too much of an impact, but I later learned... flag everything. You might not use it, but it's better to have it and not need it, then have to either force a replay, or play questionable games to try to work around it.

Here's a real dumb example from my game. At some point early on (in ch2), you're on a date, and you ask her if she prefers beach, or mountains as a getaway spot. She answers then asks you - the game flags your response. I really have no intention of ever using this flag, BUT if say in ch6 or 7 I happen to write dialogue where I want to reference this conversation, I'll be glad I flagged it at the time. (I also have some flags of bigger decisions that I don't currently use, but since I know I will, again, I want them flagged now so I can use it later on).


I can't say much more about the story progression since I haven't touched the game in a few chapters, and don't intend to, but the flagging random stuff definitely is best practice, even if half of it is never used.

 

[Tlaero]

There is only the question left about who defines what exactly a good story is...the majority of people?, genre fans?, ratings?, critics?, literature specialists?. I mean you're generally speaking right of course with your statement, but at the same time it's not that easy. Writing itself is easier to determine in that regard imo than a story

The other piece of advice that I give to new writers is "Write the story you want to read." If you write a story that you find to be good, you'll find other people who agree with you. Yeah, the majority of people will want something else, but you can't possibly please the majority. They all want different things.

But there's no fan more important than yourself. Write the story that your biggest fan (you) wants and you'll be successful even if said success isn't financial.

Tlaero

 

[Tlaero]

you'd be surprised how well the human body can function on no sleep. The mind on the other hand.....

Yeah, I did an entire game based on that very thing. Of all of my characters, Miranda is the one most based on a real person in my life. I feel for you. :-(

Tlaero

 

[Raife]

My low tolerance for high school / college settings is well known on this thread.

Well known?! Dare I say it's notorious?

Oh well, the first step in the recovery process is admitting you have a problem.

 

[jufot]

Personally, if a dude raised me from birth to adulthood, that guy would be my father. I can't really understand at all this MC's reaction to finding out he isn't the biological father. Like immediately referring to him as Andreas and "not dad." Maybe I just can't wrap my head around this because I have no personal experience with it.

I'm glad to see someone else feel this way. Elsewhere on the internet, I see posts like "I'm 35 years old, just found out my dad isn't related to me. How can I find my real dad?" It makes my blood boil. The man who raised you for decades is not your real dad, but some random stranger out there is? Ungrateful prick :/

Other than the general appeal of the forbidden relationship, the bigger problem is Nikki/Cora's place among the girls.

I think Intertwined would have been better without the whole Andreas/Nikki/Cora storyline. They are like a second, separate game within the game. They don't really interact with the rest of the cast, and removing them doesn't affect any of the other storylines.

 

[Raife]

The other piece of advice that I give to new writers is "Write the story you want to read." If you write a story that you find to be good, you'll find other people who agree with you. Yeah, the majority of people will want something else, but you can't possibly please the majority. They all want different things.

But there's no fan more important than yourself. Write the story that your biggest fan (you) wants and you'll be successful even if said success isn't financial.

Tlaero

Yes, yes, yes -- 1000X YES! I am certain that is _exactly_ what jufot wants to encourage devs to do with this thread: to tell the compelling stories _they_ want to tell (speak up, old man, if I'm off base).

There is so much sameness, dullness, and majority/market-driven writing on this horrible hellsite. We want to see original, compelling stories from devs with unique visions. Stories with genuine emotion, feeling and eroticism... not stupid porny tropes.

Tlaero's stories are something of an archetype, in that respect: I've never read one of her stories and said to myself, "wow, Christine is such a dull, conventional type that I've seen depicted a million times before." Instead, my reaction is always "holy shit... amazing!"

 

[Raife]

I think Intertwined would have been better without the whole Andreas/Nikki/Cora storyline. They are like a second, separate game within the game. They don't really interact with the rest of the cast, and removing them doesn't affect any of the other storylines.

That is what I've been saying since that storyline was introduced. We didn't need it, and it is a complete distraction from the main plotline and characters.

I would hazard a guess that Nyx got pushed into it by the horde... but I don't hang out on her discord, so I'm not certain.

 

[desmosome]

I think Intertwined would have been better without the whole Andreas/Nikki/Cora storyline. They are like a second, separate game within the game. They don't really interact with the rest of the cast, and removing them doesn't affect any of the other storylines.

Nikki is pretty awesome but yea. You could make this argument. But then, you could say the same for the ex-gf and pretty much the entire story from Riverside. The way I see it, this game is an exercise in pushing the intertwined social web to it's utter breaking point. It's not even gonna stop at this point. MC's bio dad will likely be related to some other character and so on and so fourth. It's not exactly believable or realistic, but that is the purpose and main hook of the story. It's a soap opera on steroids.

I agree that the way the story panned out makes the "almost step family arc" detached from everyone else and kinda superfluous. If the wedding went through, things could be a lot more interesting. Interesting enough for it to be a worthy addition to the web.

 

[bacienvu88]

I'm glad to see someone else feel this way. Elsewhere on the internet, I see posts like "I'm 35 years old, just found out my dad isn't related to me. How can I find my real dad?" It makes my blood boil. The man who raised you for decades is not your real dad, but some random stranger out there is? Ungrateful prick :/

My preferred term for the so called "real dad" is sperm donor. Doesn't matter if it is via artificial insemination or fucking. The involvement of that dude is still limited to being a sperm donor.

 

[desmosome]

I got an interesting discussion for y'all. "Am I being too biased against Harem?" Alright, here me out.

In general, I try really hard to see the author's intent and adjust my expectation and assessment of the product accordingly. For example, as an NTR enjoyer, I like all the tropes that come with it. As I have discussed in some earlier posts, NTR is a theme that generally takes place in a character arc (often spanning the entirety of the game). There are certain things that almost need to happen in a traditional NTR story. Dense MC, female protagonist that is very prone to sexual domination and corruption, giga Chad that is the ultimate seducer/manipulator/dominator, etc. The final act is almost always the complete falling of the female protag after she undergoes the corruption arc. These are all things that define the genre to an extent, and the NTR enjoyers will be delighted with a story that stays within this framework (with room for creativity and variations of course).

To someone who is not an explicit NTR enjoyer, these tropes can often push things beyond the limits of suspension of disbelief. So when I read jufot's review of On Edge The Edge Of, I had some thoughts. He praised the writing and everything but had issues with the last act of wanton corruption. To an NTR fan like me, that is the point of the final act in NTR plots. Although I have not played it yet, I can already tell that it's staying within the framework of standard NTR.

*PS. I am playing through A Promise Best Left Unkept by the same dev which is fucking amazing and maybe you guys might enjoy it too (only if you have tolerance for NTR).

Anyways, here is the meat of the discussion. If there is one thing I value, it's consistency in my own viewpoints. I don't think I am giving as much leeway to the typical harem games that I would to the typical NTR games. I'd like to think that NTR is more extensive and constraining as a tag than harems. NTR is a theme while harem is just a relationship state. HOWEVER, it goes without saying that harem fans don't necessarily think like that. To them, harem is just as much a theme as NTR is for me. Thus, it makes sense that harem fans like the theme of Chad MC getting all the women and that many devs also write the story in this way.

To a "story-first" enjoyer like jufot, the tropes of NTR can be a negative just as much as the harem tropes. As for me, I am quite flexible. I get into different mindsets based on the type of game I'm playing. For example, I love story-first games as much as anyone here. I also enjoyed Intertwined (although I wouldn't exactly call it story-first) for the crazy soap opera shenanigans and character drama. I love various NTR games with all it's tropes. I love dominator MC corrupting all the bitches. I love gameplay eroges for the awesome gameplay. I even enjoy the classic romance from time to time. And yes, I even enjoy some harem games (as long as it's not super cringy and has competent writing).

What I can never get past and appreciate is the subset of harem games that panders extremely hard to appeal to that fanatical harem fanbase. Basically anyone in that Harem games thread. Like when the devs write absurd scenarios to reassure players that they are indeed the only penis in the game. Like when they write infallible MCs that are good at everything and is a gentleman. Or when they use a self insert nerd MC that somehow is a pussy magnet.

Then I got to thinking, isn't this what the "true" harem fans actually want? Just like how "true" NTR fans want their tropey corruption and retarded MC who can't figure shit out? Maybe the harem games that I actually enjoyed are not really focused on the harem theme. It would be akin to story-first games that get the NTR tag for non-MC sex of some type. I'm not gonna enjoy those games for the NTR because it doesn't follow the NTR progression. I'm gonna enjoy it for the competent writing. So the harem games I enjoyed were maybe just tagged with harem without actually being a true harem game in similar fashion.

That leads me to the final point of this self assessment. Maybe I shouldn't dock points when reviewing harem games just for the fact that it is pandering to this harem crowd. I could dock points if the writing itself is weak, which is something I do regardless of the tags. But maybe I shouldn't hold it against the game if it tries to indulge in the "true" harem themes that those fans desperately enjoy (more like demand, but hey). Those games just aren't for me. Just like I don't go around rating docking points for hardcore femdom.

Thoughts?

 

[jufot]

So when I read jufot's review of On Edge, I had some thoughts.

You mean The Edge Of

He praised the writing and everything but had issues with the last act of wanton corruption. To an NTR fan like me, that is the point of the final act in NTR plots. Although I have not played it yet, I can already tell that it's staying within the framework of standard NTR.

Right. The point of the game for me, and the reason I enjoyed it, had nothing to do with NTR. From my POV, it was about a man who gradually loses his wife (and his sanity) due to rampant paranoia and lack of communication skills. That's interesting! It's not common at all. I did lose all interest when the last hour of the game devolved into tropey nonsense, but I realize that's what NTR fans are looking for. One might say that my review is therefore unfair, but I disagree. More on that below.

Then I got to thinking, isn't this what the "true" harem fans actually want? Just like how "true" NTR fans want their tropey corruption and retarded MC who can't figure shit out? Maybe the harem games that I actually enjoyed are not really focused on the harem theme.

Sure, I'd agree with that.

It would be akin to story-first games that get the NTR tag for non-MC sex of some type.

There are plenty of games on F95 with a misplaced NTR tag. I have seen people on this forum, who actually argued that "if the MC walks in front of a house, and they are having sex inside, that's NTR to me." Make of that what you will

That leads me to the final point of this self assessment. Maybe I shouldn't dock points when reviewing harem games just for the fact that it is pandering to this harem crowd. I could dock points if the writing itself is weak, which is something I do regardless of the tags. But maybe I shouldn't hold it against the game if it tries to indulge in the "true" harem themes that those fans desperately enjoy (more like demand, but hey). Those games just aren't for me. Just like I don't go around rating gay games or femdom games (since I don't play it).

I don't think you should change your behaviour at all. Reviews are by definition subjective. The idea of an "objective review" is an oxymoron perpetuated by those who lack imagination, critical thinking skills, and just some common sense, really. I docked points in my review of The Edge Of because there were parts of the game that made my experience worse. The best reviews, in my opinion, are those who embrace the unavoidable subjectivity and talk about their personal experience.

 

[desmosome]

I don't think you should change your behaviour at all. Reviews are by definition subjective. The idea of an "objective review" is an oxymoron perpetuated by those who lack imagination, critical thinking skills, and just some common sense, really. I docked points in my review of The Edge Of because there were parts of the game that made my experience worse. The best reviews, in my opinion, are those who embrace the unavoidable subjectivity and talk about their personal experience.

It's not so much of a question of subjectivity for me. It is my self imposed rule to try hard to base my assessment of a game on the dev's intent and whether they succeeded in delivering what they wanted in a satisfactory manner. There is some inherent subjectivity to this way of viewing games, so I am not even arguing in favor of objectivity, although it always helps to be as objective as possible.

There are certain objective measures that are universal. English proficiency, dialogue writing, visuals, etc. Beyond that, I feel like it would be a disservice to totally disregard the genre tropes in favor of believable, realistic, compelling character interactions. Of course, there are many games that do have those qualities as the primary intent, which you can praise if done well, or criticize if done poorly. There are also straight up fuckfests that do something like male dom sex scenes really well. If I can sense that the dev isn't shooting for the stars, I am not gonna hold it against them too much for for making a fuckfest for fans of fuckfests.

There was the discrepancy. I like male dom. I like NTR. The genre tropes used in an expected way to make a fap game wasn't something I felt was a weakness if it's a theme I enjoy. I just felt like I wasn't extending that same criteria for the tropey harems. If I find that a particular harem game is one of those types, maybe it's better to just treat it like another multitude of themes I don't enjoy and just delete the game instead of trying to form an accurate assessment of the game.

Not saying there is any real definitive way to review/assess games. I merely want to be consistent with my self heh. I just found an inconsistency in my tendency to accept NTR tropes as being part of the theme while simultaneously deriding the harem tropes.

 

[realjitter]

It still makes my brain hurt a little when those 3 magic letters occur. (NTR)
Some1 in this thread told me that forced cuckolding is the most accurate comparison...So why is it when i read desmosome his comment that i feel like he's talking about something else?.

Forced cuckolding.., i mean, as i mentioned before i was active on a fetish side (milovavna) That side is focused mainy around topics like Tease and denial, cock control, edging, orgasm denial, femdom and all the things that go alongside with it. Cuckolding, humiliation sissification, forced bi...you name it, it's all there. .. (all the F95 most popular tags )
But what i never read about is forced cuckolding...
I mean, how does that even play out in a story?. Is there like a guy where his girlfriend ties him to a chair or whatever and forces him to watch her fuck another dude? Does the guy has a gun held to his head while he has to watch?. Maybe blackmail?. Not to mention that that person on top of being forced also has to be into being forced because otherwise he wouldn't be a cuckold in the first place...
There's no cuckolding just because your girlfriend fucks another guy infront of someone...that'd be obviously just sharing...

Well, i just go out on a limp and say that even a freaking diaper fetish is more common and also easier to find out there in the WWW than forced cuckolding aka NTR.

I myself wrote about cuckolding once many years ago just to challenge myself. In my story it's a made up scenario, a lets pretend kind of thing where the Mistress tries to mess around a little with his "slave".
That's someting i really liked to do just for the soul purpose of not getting bored about writing the same stuff over and over again...But when i think about forced cuckolding my mind goes a little blank to be honest...

 

[jufot]

I mean, how does that even play out in a story?. Is there like a guy where his girlfriend ties him to a chair or whatever and forces him to watch her fuck another dude? Does the guy has a gun held to his head while he has to watch?. Maybe blackmail?. Not to mention that that person on top of being forced also has to be into being forced because otherwise he wouldn't be a cuckold in the first place...

That's fairly close to what happens in The Edge Of. The bad guy forces MC to watch while he and MC's wife have sex. MC realizes he has an erection, and is horrified to discover that he's enjoying it. All three of them say all sorts of nonsense, where the bad guy destroys MC's entire life, but that's the genre, so...

 

[jufot]

If Callisto can make it to your list with all the trading and traveling in the sandbox parts, now you only need to give Superheroes Suck a go and we'll be just fine.

Well, I traded sleep last night for this game. For the first ~3 hours or so, all I wanted to do was to quit. Everything felt wrong. I thought, "there is no story here, the characters are caricatures, the sandbox is atrocious, and all the MC does is try to get into the pants of everyone in this conveniently-all-female school. Why am I playing this again?" The humour was occasionally good, but that was basically the only upside.

But then I thought, moskyx and I have decent overlap in our tastes, surely he wouldn't repeatedly recommend a complete turd? So, I kept playing. I'm glad I did because after the initial ~3 hours, the game started having an actual story! A fun one, if not too generic. Character development also started happening and, while tropey, they are all interesting people. The porn hasn't improved (great animations, but utterly nonsensical scenes) but I don't mind it that much.

Anyway, I suppose this is a long-winded way of saying thanks for the recommendation

 

[ARB582]

I wish I had found this thread earlier, the list is excellent, i had already played or at least heard of most of the games on this list but i found some new games to entertain me.

But the game i enjoyed the most was corporate culture, the game had quite a unique premise and was very well written and Elsa has become one of my favorite characters in AVNs as she is quite unique among the female characters of AVNs, i really hope we get the choice of pursuing her as our main LI because so far Alice doesn't really seem that interesting. I really hope we aren't pushed more towards her as i generally dislike games where the game decides it for me rather than it being my choice.

I was going to recommend some games but i found most of them had already been suggested and rejected except for Superhuman

Cons -
1. Artwork is quite unique and is an acquired taste.
2. Sex scenes aren't the greatest strength of the game unless you are into the particular fetish. They definitely at times feel like they are there bcoz its an adult game not bcoz they add something to the story. On the flip side they never seem out of character. Most sex scenes are currently with side characters and none of the main ones hence the lack of character development through them

Pros -
1. Sci-fi setting.
2. The main plot of the game is quite unique and has a lot of mystery and intrigue.
3. MC's powers are quite interesting and leads to some amazing set pieces in the story.

 

[moskyx]

Well, I traded sleep last night for this game. For the first ~3 hours or so, all I wanted to do was to quit. Everything felt wrong. I thought, "there is no story here, the characters are caricatures, the sandbox is atrocious, and all the MC does is try to get into the pants of everyone in this conveniently-all-female school. Why am I playing this again?" The humour was occasionally good, but that was basically the only upside.

But then I thought, moskyx and I have decent overlap in our tastes, surely he wouldn't repeatedly recommend a complete turd? So, I kept playing. I'm glad I did because after the initial ~3 hours, the game started having an actual story! A fun one, if not too generic. Character development also started happening and, while tropey, they are all interesting people. The porn hasn't improved (great animations, but utterly nonsensical scenes) but I don't mind it that much.

Anyway, I suppose this is a long-winded way of saying thanks for the recommendation

Yeah, the story advances just too slow and sandbox is not only atrocious at its current state but also completely detrimental to the story. Sadly dev not only is not willing to get rid of it but intends to overhaul it to add multiple ways to skip time, instead of working on finding a better flow for the storytelling. Glad you find at least the time to try it out

 

[desmosome]

It still makes my brain hurt a little when those 3 magic letters occur. (NTR)
Some1 in this thread told me that forced cuckolding is the most accurate comparison...So why is it when i read desmosome his comment that i feel like he's talking about something else?.

Forced cuckolding.., i mean, as i mentioned before i was active on a fetish side (milovavna) That side is focused mainy around topics like Tease and denial, cock control, edging, orgasm denial, femdom and all the things that go alongside with it. Cuckolding, humiliation sissification, forced bi...you name it, it's all there. .. (all the F95 most popular tags )
But what i never read about is forced cuckolding...
I mean, how does that even play out in a story?. Is there like a guy where his girlfriend ties him to a chair or whatever and forces him to watch her fuck another dude? Does the guy has a gun held to his head while he has to watch?. Maybe blackmail?. Not to mention that that person on top of being forced also has to be into being forced because otherwise he wouldn't be a cuckold in the first place...
There's no cuckolding just because your girlfriend fucks another guy infront of someone...that'd be obviously just sharing...

Well, i just go out on a limp and say that even a freaking diaper fetish is more common and also easier to find out there in the WWW than forced cuckolding aka NTR.

I myself wrote about cuckolding once many years ago just to challenge myself. In my story it's a made up scenario, a lets pretend kind of thing where the Mistress tries to mess around a little with his "slave".
That's someting i really liked to do just for the soul purpose of not getting bored about writing the same stuff over and over again...But when i think about forced cuckolding my mind goes a little blank to be honest...

Forced cuckolding was a loose description by someone. I assume what they were describing is basically getting cucked against your will. And by cucked, they were simply talking about getting your girl stolen, and not necessarily the western cuckold fetish where the beta male is actively watching some dude bang his wife.

I made a more detailed post about NTR some pages back. Basically, it means the girl is stolen by some bad guy through a process of corruption. The thematic differences with the more straightforward cuckolding or cheating is in the greater emphasis placed on the psychological and emotional states of the characters. The female protag goes through disgust, guilt, remorse, acceptence, indulgence, and then finally wanton depravity. The male protag is generally of the oblivious and supportive type who works hard to support the wife/mother/gf, being none the wiser that she is undergoing the corruption process. He will gradually be worried, suspicious, in denial, and then finally find out that she has become a total cock hungry whore lol. There are obviously stories that don't follow that outline completely, but the important thing is the girl being stolen by the antagonist because of his ultra sex skills.

 

[jufot]

Sadly dev not only is not willing to get rid of it but intends to overhaul it to add multiple ways to skip time, instead of working on finding a better flow for the storytelling

That's a shame. The reason Callisto's sandbox didn't annoy me was the ship overview screen. You could see who is where, see which rooms have new content, and skip time, all without leaving that screen. It made navigation very fast. Superheroes is the complete opposite of that