Recommending Story-first games

[Tlaero]

I guess my problem is that I have to give up non-romantic character development if I want to pursue romantic interactions. For example, playing as the heterosexual man, I still want to talk to Keith about hydroponics, Mali about ocean biology, and Aisha and Denver about engineering. But if I do that, I can't pursue Stef or Ariana

This is very eye opening for me. I've been thinking of those scenes as purely relationship building, so I've been assuming that players would mostly only talk to people they have a chance at having sex with. Granted, it's me, so the conversations are about more than sex. But I didn't really consider male MC players wanting to talk with Keith, etc. (I mean, I made Mortze create all of the pictures for both genders, but still.)

I'm not sure how I'm going to react to this revelation, or if I even can, but I'll think about it.

Tlaero

 

[bacienvu88]

This is very eye opening for me. I've been thinking of those scenes as purely relationship building, so I've been assuming that players would mostly only talk to people they have a chance at having sex with. Granted, it's me, so the conversations are about more than sex. But I didn't really consider male MC players wanting to talk with Keith, etc. (I mean, I made Mortze create all of the pictures for both genders, but still.)

I'm not sure how I'm going to react to this revelation, or if I even can, but I'll think about it.

Tlaero

I think the conversations serve as excellent world building and character building material in addition to relationship building. And I'm a sucker for world building and character building when it is well done.

That said, I have no problem doing multiple playthroughs so I'll see all of it eventually.

 

[bacienvu88]

This has been recommended here a few times, but I just can't get past some of the genres mentioned in the description Specifically, "corruption, sleep sex, blackmail, humiliation, sexual harassment, slave" are big turn-offs.

Most (all?) of that happens in the D&D sessions they are playing. And I think most (all?) of it is avoidable (I don't remember exactly). Still not sure if I'm going to bother with the new update, since i didn't find the game a bit too tropey and not compelling enough to make up for it.

 

[jufot]

This is very eye opening for me. [...] I'm not sure how I'm going to react to this revelation, or if I even can, but I'll think about it.

I'm honestly quite surprised at your reaction. I figured this was obvious to you from the beginning, and you simply didn't think it was a big deal. And I'm not saying it is! I know I'm a weird and picky player, and I don't expect any dev to do anything based on my feedback

I've been thinking of those scenes as purely relationship building, so I've been assuming that players would mostly only talk to people they have a chance at having sex with.

This has happened over on the Bare Witness thread as well. People wanted to just spend time with characters getting to know them, and suddenly found themselves getting locked out of LIs because of it. The devs reacted the way you did, they just didn't think anyone would want to spend time with a person if they didn't want to fuck them. Imagine that Of course, at that point, it was too late to change anything, so everyone just kind of accepted it and moved on.

 

[Tlaero]

I guess what I said isn't quite accurate. I did intentionally make it so that you can't see everything in one playthrough. I guess my surprise is that people who want to only play it once will also want to see the non-romancible characters content. Though, when I say it that way, it sounds pretty silly...

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

Hmm, now I'm thinking of making a small mod where advancing time would require user action. That way, you can still explore non-sexual content without losing points. I wouldn't publish it without your blessing, of course.

 

[jufot]

I guess my surprise is that people who want to only play it once will also want to see the non-romancible characters content

This is not what I'm saying, by the way. Even if I were to play it 9 times, I'd still prefer non-sexual bits to be available regardless of LI choices.

 

[realjitter]

Omg, in intertwined you can watch 2 people who're not the MC + Girl xyz have sex!. I demand the immediate shutdown of the entire internet.

 

[desmosome]

The importance of non-romance interactions depend on the story and game type. In a traditional story focused VN, I'd say it's pretty important to do stuff together with the cast, especially if the initial relationship is close (friends, family, team members, etc). In a dating sim environment, where you have some potential partners that you pick and go out with, maybe not as much.

 

[Vasin]

I don't remember that couple jumping onto the MC in the prologue? If anything, while Rachel doesn't mind a bit of adultery, it takes considerable time for Alice to warm up to the MC.
That's fair, and I've dropped games for less. I recommended this game here because the relationships, while porny, are still better than most.

Yeah that's what I said, they don't, but everyone else goes "OH MY GOSH WHAT A HUNK, LET ME TOUCH HIS DICK" pretty much almost immediately. I also can't help but note that just because you lampshade the fact that there are no other men on the ship it doesn't make it less contrived. Oh, how I wish to see the (anti)NTR crowd screech in rage over another straight male crewman (maybe even with an optional storyline of getting together with one of LI that MC doesn't pursue). That would definitely offset all of the cheese. Prologue to me just doesn't feel like a story-first thing, maybe story-tied at best, but more like the story is secondary to the porny bits. I think Heavy Five is a good example of a story first first act. Too bad it got mired in games within games and awful sandbox.

This has been recommended here a few times, but I just can't get past some of the genres mentioned in the description Specifically, "corruption, sleep sex, blackmail, humiliation, sexual harassment, slave" are big turn-offs.

That's fair they also are for me, but for me the problem with "corruption" tag is not with the core concept but rather absolute dumbass execution. It's also a very broad tag. As for sleep sex, I think it actually happens to the MC? It's a minor plot point that I don't remember very well.

 

[jufot]

Yeah that's what I said, they don't, but everyone else goes "OH MY GOSH WHAT A HUNK, LET ME TOUCH HIS DICK" pretty much almost immediately.

Oops, seems I've misread your comment. You're definitely right about everyone else.

Oh, how I wish to see the (anti)NTR crowd screech in rage over another straight male crewman (maybe even with an optional storyline of getting together with one of LI that MC doesn't pursue). That would definitely offset all of the cheese.

True, I wish there were developers brave enough to do it

 

[Raife]

I guess what I said isn't quite accurate. I did intentionally make it so that you can't see everything in one playthrough. I guess my surprise is that people who want to only play it once will also want to see the non-romancible characters content. Though, when I say it that way, it sounds pretty silly...

Tlaero

Toro 7 is great, as usual -- there's so much there to love, even at this early stage:

• As in all of your games, the MC has a distinctive, clearly drawn personality -- which is essential to a successful story-driven game. We (the players) are allowed some pretty important choices and agency, but we're role-playing someone who has their own moral framework and ideas. That's essential in a true-story driven game: tabula rasa MCs do not work.
• All of the characters appear to have lives of their own, and quite different worldviews... great work.
• The opening. I love the way you weave together the unfolding whodunit with the gradual reveal of the otherworldly setting. Brilliant.
• The art. Mortze is _fantastic_. I've said it before, but the way he gives the female form subtle imperfections and quirks makes the women in your joint projects soooooooo much sexier than 99.9% of your competition.
• I like all of the LIs open to the straight male MC. I haven't explored the trans character, but I'd like to think my MC would be open to her, as well. They are all appealing in their own ways. But... I greatly prefer the Director. Her combination of strength and vulnerability; toughness with hints of interior softness; self reliance and determination... it is just so appealing. She reminds me of my wife. So, It's not a close call, for me!

There was just one thing that felt a bit off: the immediate and universal openness among all of the characters about their sexual orientations. Granted... you explain it in the dialogue with Stef and the setting _does_ make it more plausible. But I just can't get past the fact that it felt like a narrative device, or kluge. I can understand why most characters would be quite open about their preferences in that setting... but it did not feel plausible for _all_ your characters to immediately broadcast their preferences.

But the fact is bottom line is that I love the game already. It has both a compelling story, and fascinating characters... other devs should take note -- you really need both to be successful. Plus, you are brilliant at foreshadowing and adding new layers of mystery... even as the player discovers more about what went on before they arrived.

In particular: I loved the second scene with the dog and the ball. You are sooooooo good at what you do!

OK, I've gone all fanboy. Calm down Raife... get a grip. OK, now I'm .

 

[jufot]

I greatly prefer the Director. Her combination of strength and vulnerability; toughness with hints of interior softness; self reliance and determination... it is just so appealing. She reminds me of my wife. So, It's not a close call, for me!

Agreed, word for word! Stephanie is nice, but I would need more character development before I could commit. Oriana is very cute, but shy genius nerd isn't exactly my thing

There was just one thing that felt a bit off: [...]

Yeah, it felt a tad rushed. Imagine starting at a new workplace and going "Hi! My name is jufot. I'm a heterosexual man; and ladies, yes, I am single" I'm a bit ashamed of this now, see the next few comments.

 

[Raife]

Agreed, word for word! Stephanie is nice, but I would need more character development before I could commit. Oriana is very cute, but shy genius nerd isn't exactly my thing

One of the things that I like about both Stef and the Director, as LIs, is that the MC has reasons to suspect their motivations.

The Director found the victim's body, is clearly holding out on the MC, and has that suspicious case under her desk . Stef... just seems waaaaaay too friendly and eager to be helpful than she should be. Yes... that's supposed to be an element of her personality, but I always find excessively friendly people a bit suspicious... let alone people who want to instantly jump my bones (even if I am a magnetically attractive MC.)

Since building trust is a major part of developing intimacy, ambiguously motivated LIs always add an extra level of interest, from my point of view. (Plus... for my money, Tlaero is the best creator of female characters in gaming; the Director is a _classic_ Tlaero character.)

 

[Tlaero]

Thank you, Raife!

There are definitely aspects of this where the story supports the game rather than the other way around. I tried to make it make sense, but with 9 characters I felt that I needed to not "lead the players on," and get their hopes up that they'd get to romance someone they couldn't. I was particularly concerned with Aisha since I am using "trans" as an identity, but I knew that a lot of people would treat it as a kink.

That said, I know the orientation (and pronouns) of all of the IRL people who work for me, and I learned them largely right away. In a supportive environment, orientation is no more strange to talk about than home town. I recognize that supportive environments aren't the norm for people, though.

I'm glad you folks like the Director. She's my favorite character to write (although I really like writing scenes that make Aisha smile...)

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

That said, I know the orientation (and pronouns) of all of the IRL people who work for me, and I learned them largely right away. In a supportive environment, orientation is no more strange to talk about than home town. I recognize that supportive environments aren't the norm for people, though.

That's a good point, and now I feel bad for not thinking about it that way. While I do know the pronouns and orientations of everyone I work with, it was never something explicitly addressed. It just came out organically through social interactions over time. It never took long, but it wasn't a day one thing like in Toro 7 either. I wouldn't call that approach wrong, but I admit maybe that's just me being behind the times on this.

although I really like writing scenes that make Aisha smile

She has a very cute smile, and is my target on my lesbian save file

 

[Tlaero]

Not necessarily behind the times. Toro 7 takes place in the future, and tolerance tends to increase over time (albeit with setbacks along the way). That you only feel that it's a bit off suggests that you're ahead of the times.

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

That you only feel that it's a bit off suggests that you're ahead of the times.

Well, that's very charitable of you! This has been a good lesson for me to question my knee-jerk reactions a bit more, so thank you for that

 

[moskyx]

Plus the MC also feels a bit surprised, so you could say you are perfectly aligned with your character's mindset.

However, I don't feel those introductions were too blunt. Mali implies her orientation in a knowing remark to Oriana, who then says she had a boyfriend after the MC was asked about relationships. Johan states his shower issue in a very casual way, which could lead to a totally believable exchange in which Steph implies she's bi (in straight routes, she only says she's bi when the MC explicitly asks her about her orientation). Then Denver says his line about hot chicks, and Aisha only answers when the MC assumes they are a thing -then Denver makes that obnoxious comment about her being trans. I don't think Keith actually talks about his orientation: a female MC has a 'flirting' choice but that's it, and the same goes for the Director. Maybe Doctor Salas makes the less appropriate comment when he says that the deceased sec officer was his friend, not his lover, because he was straight (so much for the confidentiality thing, I guess), but otherwise everything feels quite natural, considering the crew has been living together for months and they all are fully aware of other's orientation by now.

 

[Raife]

Plus the MC also feels a bit surprised, so you could say you are perfectly aligned with your character's mindset.

However, I don't feel those introductions were too blunt [...] everything feels quite natural, considering the crew has been living together for months and they all are fully aware of other's orientation by now.

I don't disagree, moskyx... Tlaero generally managed these data points cleverly. It just felt like the 'scaffolding off stage' was showing a little bit, because (1) we noticed it, and (2) I could tell that Tlaero needed to manage these introductions quickly for game/plotting purposes.

It's not at all a significant criticism... it just didn't flow as organically as the rest of the plot.

Let me use another analogy. When she is really cooking, a Tlaero story sucks you completely into the world she's creating... to the point where you forget you are reading and just experience it. The instant orientation/identity introductions, on the other hand, just reminded me that I was playing a game... a bit like suddenly remembering that you are traveling on rails in an otherwise brilliant theme park ride. It only jarred my ride a little... but I noticed. Not because the orientations themselves were jarring... but because I could see _why_ she needed to introduce that information quickly.

Most of Toro, though, was filled with little moments of wonder where you forget you're on a human-devised ride:

• The opening. When you realize that instead of underwater on earth, you're underwater on another moon in the solar system... far out in the future! Fantastic.
• That conversation while jogging with the Director. It felt just right... real and true to life for those characters.
• The scene with the dog and the ball. With that simple, non-verbal incident, she piled mystery on top of mystery, dumped a load of potential breadcrumbs, and gave me another jolt.

So I'm nitpicking... one of the reasons I noticed the 'rails' at all during the orientation discussions is that everything else in the game felt so natural. Other devs should study how she assembles these games.