Recommending Story-first games

[bacienvu88]

I'm less sympathetic towards Emma than some of you. Yeah, she's not the monster that Edward sometimes implies, but threatening to fire him is her major method of motivation. There's some hints it's the stress getting to her. I don't know if that'll go anywhere, or if the moral will just be that you have to be a heartless bastard to make it to the top of the corporate ladder.

Remember that Edward has been a lazy bum for 10 years. I think threatening to fire him is the only thing that has had any effect on Edward to make him actually do any proper work during that time. By the looks of it Emma has been lenient on him by *not* having fired him yet. And I don't think Emma is fully convinced by his transformation. That is, if she gives him a promotion will he return to be a lazy bum and end up doing more harm to the company as a manager than what the gain from that report would be? Sure, threatening to firing him isn't good by any means but you need to take their history into account as well.

EDIT: My take on the history between Edward and Emma. How much of it is true and how much is conjecture and me reading too much between the lines I don't know.

• Edward and Emma start working at EO around the same time. Edward a couple of months before Emma.
• Edward and Emma develop a good friendship during this time.
• Edward and Emma are by far the best workers in their group. But Emma is more driven than Edward.
• When the manager position of their group became open Edward expected to get the job because he has worked longer than Emma and they are both great workers. But Emma got the job because she is more driven.
• Since Emma now became his direct report they could not have the same friendship. Edward becomes a bit isolated in the group.
• Edward develops resentment toward Emma as a result of this and as a result his work performance drops.
• A few colleagues of Edward and Emma start to spread malicious rumours about how Emma got the promotion. E.g. the usual crap toward successful women about sleeping with the boss and so forth.
• As Edward's resentment grows he begins to think that there may be something to those malicious rumours and resentment grows even more.
• Emma's work performance continues to be great; so she is promoted again so the manager position is free again. Edward again expects to get the promotion because he still thinks of him as as great as Emma even though his performance has deteriorated.
• Edward does not get the promotion.
• Edward start to think of Emma as a traitor and goes further down the path of resentment until he becomes a lazy bum that don't care about his job.
• All his problems are blamed on Emma.
• Edward is repeatedly warned that he is going to be fired if his work performance does not improve.
• Emma protects Edward from being fired behind the scenes out of sentimentality but does not let Edward know that as to not make him even more complacent.
• These warnings are the only thing that still motivates Edward.
• And this is the situation when CC starts.

 

[vneotpolemus]

Remember that Edward has been a lazy bum for 10 years. I think threatening to fire him is the only thing that has had any effect on Edward to make him actually do any proper work during that time. By the looks of it Emma has been lenient on him by *not* having fired him yet. And I don't think Emma is fully convinced by his transformation. That is, if she gives him a promotion will he return to be a lazy bum and end up doing more harm to the company as a manager than what the gain from that report would be? Sure, threatening to firing him isn't good by any means but you need to take their history into account as well.

Fair points. It's reasonable for Emma to be worried about Edward backsliding into his old habits when she's got him working on something so important. Still, I think she's ruthless and playing to win. She was willing to turn a blind eye to his laziness when it wasn't directly affecting her, but once it was her promotion on the line she started applying the blowtorch. Which is understandable (and E+E escalated massively), but I don't buy her as an innocent bystander.

EDIT: My take on the history between Edward and Emma. How much of it is true and how much is conjecture and me reading too much between the lines I don't know.

• Edward and Emma start working at EO around the same time. Edward a couple of months before Emma.
• Edward and Emma develop a good friendship during this time.
• Edward and Emma are by far the best workers in their group. But Emma is more driven than Edward.
• When the manager position of their group became open Edward expected to get the job because he has worked longer than Emma and they are both great workers. But Emma got the job because she is more driven.
• Since Emma now became his direct report they could not have the same friendship. Edward becomes a bit isolated in the group.
• Edward develops resentment toward Emma as a result of this and as a result his work performance drops.
• A few colleagues of Edward and Emma start to spread malicious rumours about how Emma got the promotion. E.g. the usual crap toward successful women about sleeping with the boss and so forth.
• As Edward's resentment grows he begins to think that there may be something to those malicious rumours and resentment grows even more.
• Emma's work performance continues to be great; so she is promoted again so the manager position is free again. Edward again expects to get the promotion because he still thinks of him as as great as Emma even though his performance has deteriorated.
• Edward does not get the promotion.
• Edward start to think of Emma as a traitor and goes further down the path of resentment until he becomes a lazy bum that don't care about his job.
• All his problems are blamed on Emma.
• Edward is repeatedly warned that he is going to be fired if his work performance does not improve.
• Emma protects Edward from being fired behind the scenes but does not let Edward know that as to not make him even more complacent.
• These warnings are the only thing that still motivates Edward.
• And this is the situation when CC starts.

I kind of like the vibe, although I'm not sure the details fit. It's been implied that Edward's depression goes all the way back to university and his breakup, and he claims they don't have any real history (possible unreliable narration). I don't think Emma is central to his problems, she's more of a symptom. My take would be something like:

• Edward joins EO, Emma is his direct supervisor ("We never worked together. You worked for me.")
• She thinks he's smart, but useless because of his depression ("Even those retards with 100 IQ shared between both brains were doing their shit while you were roaming around the office like a fucking sad clown doing zero shit.")
• Emma starts getting promoted up the hierarchy.
• Edward begins to resent her for having the success he wants (although doesn't think he deserves it due to his self-loathing).
• Emma covers for Edward, because she has a soft spot for him/thinks he could be useful if he ever gets his shit together. ("Oh, you know... Do you also know that I didn't fire you over a dozen times in the past few years?!")

 

[bacienvu88]

Fair points. It's reasonable for Emma to be worried about Edward backsliding into his old habits when she's got him working on something so important. Still, I think she's ruthless and playing to win. She was willing to turn a blind eye to his laziness when it wasn't directly affecting her, but once it was her promotion on the line she started applying the blowtorch. Which is understandable (and E+E escalated massively), but I don't buy her as an innocent bystander.

Of course she isn't an innocent bystander. But I don't think any executive of an oil company can be counted as an innocent bystander in any sense. But she is the one who gets all the flak even though her male colleagues are equally bad or worse. David the CEO also got flak, but only because he is arrogant and a playboy, not because he treats his badly.

I kind of like the vibe, although I'm not sure the details fit. It's been implied that Edward's depression goes all the way back to university and his breakup, and he claims they don't have any real history (possible unreliable narration). I don't think Emma is central to his problems, she's more of a symptom. My take would be something like:

• Edward joins EO, Emma is his direct supervisor ("We never worked together. You worked for me.")
• She thinks he's smart, but useless because of his depression ("Even those retards with 100 IQ shared between both brains were doing their shit while you were roaming around the office like a fucking sad clown doing zero shit.")
• Emma starts getting promoted up the hierarchy.
• Edward begins to resent her for having the success he wants (although doesn't think he deserves it due to his self-loathing).
• Emma covers for Edward, because she has a soft spot for him/thinks he could be useful if he ever gets his shit together. ("Oh, you know... Do you also know that I didn't fire you over a dozen times in the past few years?!")

That is certainly something that also could be the truth. But your take is with Edward-colored glasses, mine are more with Emma-colored glasses. Edward says in the beginning: "I’ve known her for about ten years, and she's been a bitch all that time.". Is that the truth or is it just that he has conveniently forgot about all the good things? Note that Fleur only says that she has been "bitchy lately".

 

[bacienvu88]

To clarify my stance a bit more. It is really not the details about Emma that is bothering me. My problem is that Emma is not treated as a person by Edward and by extension the game. Instead she is treated as the embodiment of the misogynistic "bitch" stereotype without anyone or anything pushing back on it. Elsa rather fuels Edward's misogynistic opinions of her. Sure, Emma can be harsh, cold and even ruthless. But she behaves like that because she has learned the hard way that no one will treat her seriously otherwise and dismiss her work and opinions just because she is a woman. And even then a lot of the employees dismiss her.

 

[bacienvu88]

Has anybody here play Fog of War? I'm currently playing the beginning of it and it covers things not commonly covered in the AVN-genre. It's about a guy that was previously in the military and now going to med school. At least that's the part I'm currently in.
It's pretty good I like it so far!

Just finished playing Fog of War. After the prologue I hoped this would be similar to One Day at a Time but for PTSD instead of drugs. But so far it isn't anything like that.

Spoiler: Some impressions

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[EndlessNights]

To me the whole blackmail thing with no chance to fail was pretty boring honestly. We hope for a redemption for Edward, but he might not even get a journey, if the whole plot can be summed up as "Elsa is rich and connected and has a plan". I think the fact that only Elsa has any impact on the story and only through obscured ways could become a problem.

That sums up where I am with regards to the story very well. I'm not sure there'll be a redemption path for Edward that will still feel like redemption to me after x number of episodes of the corporate psychopath buddy comedy he and Elsa have going on. Ed has been misguided, resentful, and angry from day one, but I recognized that he was also lost and suffering which made me feel for him. The more he inflicts pain on other people to get what he thinks he wants the harder it is for me to see him as a victim of circumstance.

If there is still going to be a redemption path, I think it will require the player to either blame Ed's bad behavior on Elsa or excuse it on the grounds that everyone who got in his way was also a terrible person and deserved some comeuppance. So far, the game has seemingly gone more with option 2: it frames Lucy as a gold digger so she can be used for practice and Emma as a corporate conniver and intellectual property thief so that Ed can "take back what is his." It feels like it is escalating in the sense that Lucy didn't have to be mistreated but Emma does because the story requires it for Ed's stupid promotion.

Personally, I'm not inclined towards either option at the moment. Emma at worst is simply just as bad as Edward and Elsa so it's villains all the way down at EO. Should I particularly care that the Joker feels like the Riddler really wronged him? Does that make everything all better or is it just a plot detail? As for Elsa, she is making the golden plans and giving orders, but she made it quite explicit that it was entirely Edward's choice whether to continue along the path that they had started and I agree with her. Them parting ways in the car as friends and coworkers as Elsa offered could've been the perfect start for a true redemption path. It might have been the last chance for one to begin.

It's ironic how Ed is such an unpleasant character to play as (evidently from comments in the game thread), but he's still an overt power fantasy that can't help himself from winning.

It is a really odd quirk of the game. People who enjoy power fantasies generally don't want to see the hero ordered around by someone else, even if they're on the same side, so the Edward-Elsa dynamic juxtaposed with Ed's rise to corporate greatness and domination of women is certainly unique. Perhaps sqwl's ultimate goal is to create a VN no one will find satisfying in the end. If so, we can expect Ed to head back to college some time soon so jufot finally has something to really complain about!

 

[jufot]

If so, we can expect Ed to head back to college some time soon so jufot finally has something to really complain about!

I feel like I complained plenty about this update, no? Especially about the nonsensical promotion and its implications for Ed's future. I also shared my hopes going forward, especially with Emma not submitting an inch to Ed and going on a revenge streak. Nothing overt or physical, but something designed to manipulate Ed and pull the rug from under him. Likewise, I also said the way for Ed to get and keep both power at EO and Alice is to embrace Elsa's control over him.

Those things may not happen. Most of them probably won't. There are myriad directions the game can follow that will ultimately disappoint me as much as this update has disappointed you. If that's what you're hoping for, I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet

 

[Raife]

I, for one, welcome our villain protagonist duo.

I see why you think there's a Faustian element in _Corporate Culture_ vneot... it's an interesting thought.

But... I don't think a Faustian bargain describes what's going on, for a few reasons:

Spoiler

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We're not looking at a version of _Needful Things_... it's more complicated than that. At a certain point, my sense is that Edward might be forced to choose between helping Elsa -- either to aid in achieving her personal objectives, or to protect her -- and realizing his own goals. In other words, he'll need to decide whether their relationship is purely transactional, or not. (At least, I hope this is where sqwl is headed!)

Nice ideas, though...

 

[Raife]

sqwl's decisions certainly don't fit the pattern of a developer who wants to make a popular AVN. He releases one, maybe two updates a year. He only charges patrons per update. He doesn't have a Discord, posts infrequently on Patreon, and even less on F95. His only game doesn't have any of the crowd pleaser tags (harem, incest etc) and he refuses to compromise plot for porn, despite incessant demand.

You're right. sqwl is a bit of a unicorn -- my sense is that he's doing the game entirely to scratch an amateur itch he has... certainly not for money.

In fact, the one time he came close to throwing in the towel it was because he felt that he couldn't deliver sufficient value in return for the monthly cash we were giving him. A few of us talked him out of it, and he switched to per release payment.

I see him as something of a story-first purist, almost to a quixotic degree.

jufot is on to something: the chances of a really idiosyncratic ending are much, much higher with this guy. He's telling the story he wants to tell, at his own pace, in his own way. I don't think it's really derivative of anything, so I have very little confidence in my own ability to predict where it's going. That's one reason why I enjoy the game so much.

 

[EndlessNights]

I feel like I complained plenty about this update, no?

Of course, but it's all been the restrained, high-minded kind of analysis we've come to expect from you. To get you to write an epic, keyboard-smashing rant I'm pretty sure sqwl will have to bring higher education into the mix somehow. It might be the greatest challenge he's yet faced as an artist!

Going back to something bacienvu said earlier:

That said, the comedy skit between Elsa and Ed is still brilliant and I still think the game is worth playing just for that.

This reminded me of a hilarious line in a recent negative Corporate Culture review: "Reading the fan comments, I see that all they expect from the game today is to get another batch of 'funny bunters' with Elsa." I think that's definitely an exaggeration and I refuse to accept "funny bunter" as a phrase, but it is true that some of the sharpest writing in the game continues to be found in Elsa and Ed's banter. Could one reasonably approach CC as a black comedy instead of as a drama with the occasional darkly funny moment? I definitely don't, but maybe I'm guilty of taking the story a little too seriously. That sounds like something I might do!

I wonder if the banter will get old after a while if nothing changes between the two. It already feels very familiar to me, but more in a "This is exactly what I expect to see when I play Corporate Culture" way than, "Ugh, not more of this." Perhaps there can be too much of a good thing, though. I find Elsa is most effective as a character when her scenes don't follow in quick succession as they did in the last update but are instead interspersed with Edward's slice of life moments. Even the scene with the Alice dream felt close to being an Elsa scene because dream Alice kind of sounded like Elsa as jufot pointed out. It's as if Elsa is expanding into everyone's consciousness like Palmer Eldritch.

Of course, plenty of people in the game thread demand even more Elsa and say there's still too much focus on other characters.

 

[Raife]

To get you to write an epic, keyboard smashing rant I'm pretty sure sqwl will have to bring higher education into the mix somehow. It might be the greatest challenge he's yet faced as an artist!

It's very, very easy to set jufot off. You just need to be a juvenile ignoramus, particularly if you are rude or nasty to devs or you start start spewing misogynistic bile. That tends to unleash the Kraken.

Per your point, Endless, on his irrational ACGB condition... I think he's still afflicted with that disease, despite his feeble claims to the contrary.

 

[jufot]

Of course, but it's all been the restrained, high-minded kind of analysis we've come to expect from you. To get you to write an epic, keyboard-smashing rant I'm pretty sure sqwl will have to bring higher education into the mix somehow. It might be the greatest challenge he's yet faced as an artist!

Ha! If sqwl of all people manages to have me write a keyboard-smashing rant, I'll buy a round for all the regulars of this thread Not for Raife though; I don't think he drinks with the rabble.

Perhaps there can be too much of a good thing, though.

Indeed, and I think sqwl will give Elsa an additional schtick or two before it gets too stale. I'm hopeful because she must be planning something with her little Edward makeover project, and it's likely connected to her past. One of the very few scenes where we get to learn about Elsa's personality and world view is when she and Ed are walking to her car after leaving the police station:

Elsa : I can see the real nature of people. I can talk to them and see who they really are.
Elsa : I know why they do certain things and not others. And I almost always know what they are capable of.
Elsa : And when I was calling you, I knew you'd come. I knew you wouldn't ask for anything in return.
Elsa : You... I... Remember those old fairy tales about princesses in lonely towers and knights in shining armour who try to save them?
Edward: Sure. So I'm your knight in shining armour?
Elsa : No, you're a princess. Sweet, naive and innocent. Sitting in a lonely tower and thinking that someday someone will come and save you from your misery.
Edward: I'm no...
Elsa : That day when you called me in the middle of the night. If it had been anyone else from work, I would just have blocked them.
Elsa : But It's hard for me to be mean to or use someone like you. I can't-. You're so naive and innocuous. It's...It's like hurting a child.
Edward: First, I'm not a princess. And second, aren't you using me right now?
Elsa : No, if I wanted to use you, I wouldn't be saying all of this, and I wouldn't help you with your project - it's irrelevant for me.
Elsa : I prefer to think of this as some kind of symbiosis...
Edward: Don't you think that it's a little bit too harsh? I mean, calling me a princess.
Elsa : Maybe, but I'm trying to help you, not to please you.
Edward: And how is calling me a princess supposed to help me?
Elsa : I don't know...yet.
Elsa : What I'm trying to say is that you should care less about others and think more about yourself.
Elsa : The world is full of stupid, selfish people who think that they're better than everyone else because they only see the world through their own eyes.
Elsa : Nobody besides you really cares about you. You're alone here.
Elsa : And if you want something, you must go and take it from someone.
Edward: That’s a gloomy way to look at the world.
Elsa : It's more efficient than being optimistic.
Elsa : And it works. Whether you like it or not.

This is a deeply cynical take on people, especially from someone so young, and likely the result of numerous disappointing encounters with humanity's finest. I identify strongly with her "if you want something, you must go and take it from someone" approach to corporate life, and I believe we'll see that manifest in-game in due time.

 

[Canto Forte]

Ed is starting his journey of self deprecation with him starting a fight and getting beaten by a bully.
Ed had a room mate with whom he shared steamy foursomes and then that guy decided that
there were no more females left in the world so he had to eat out the girl of Ed in front of him.
Then the beat down. Then the fitness instructor came in and stopped Ed from getting bashed.
Then this latest update, Ed gets beaten again from literally looking at a girl.
It was all he did to get beaten outta talking to her and then the whole night was dizzy.
So Ed lost a friend, a girl he thought his friend was ok about, so his whole social life came tumbling down.

Thing is, Elsa was also at the lowest time that Ed bailed her: she started a fight and ended up in jail.
Then she broke it off with ther friend. At first, Ed was the one helping Elsa out.
Then, she turned the tables becasue she knows how to work misogynism to her advantage and
turn guys on her little finger.

pull the rug from under him

Faustian bargain describes what's going on

the chances of a really idiosyncratic ending

nothing changes

start spewing misogynistic bile

Ed has been a decade in pain socially, but professionally he was raking up the stats.
Elsa is a nobody, she knows how to work the misoginy at the work place,
that is how she can get two or more guys to follow her directions and meet,
if any of you were wondering how she could pull ”strings”: she baited assholes with herself.
Just like Fleur is disgusted by misoginy and is keeping herself outta the running.
Just like that, Elsa knows how to get what she wants from men.
Remember, she would not give a second thought to her peers being misogynistic,
but from her sleazeballs higher ups - she was eating their advances playing dumb and just standing still.

give Elsa an additional schtick or two

This is a deeply cynical take on people, especially from someone so young

When you are so young with literally a huge empire company you stand to inherit,
just like Alice who is failing everything on daddy”s money and ruining herself,
Elsa is afforded all the asshole moves, all the stupid ideas like :
she can get anything from men by blowing them or by showing the slightest interest in them.
This kind of girls are everywhere. The fancy suit for Ed is peanuts for Elsa, or for Alice,
but both of them heiresses to empires of wealth, yet they still live in the shaddow of a genious like Ed.
People skills for the wealthy are not interesting if they can buy everyone just the same.

 

[Raife]

I identify strongly with her "if you want something, you must go and take it from someone" approach to corporate life, and I believe we'll see that manifest in-game in due time.

Sadly, her view is accurate, albeit incomplete. You must either take it from someone -- inside or outside the company -- or you must find a powerful patron and help them take it from someone else. That's what corporate life is like 90% of the time: Game of Thrones.

Naturally, you can also work together to build something... but that's much, much harder than just taking something. More satisfying, but vastly more difficult. But the great advantage of building something is that even if someone takes it away from you later, you can always say, "I built that." The sense of accomplishment does not go away with loss of control -- it's perennial.

 

[bacienvu88]

I identify strongly with her "if you want something, you must go and take it from someone" approach to corporate life, and I believe we'll see that manifest in-game in due time.

That sort of thinking is hogwash. It is unfortunately very prevalent. But it is still hogwash. Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game!

For some reason most corporations are more focused on internal politics and power games than trying to maximise the benefits (profits) for both the corporation and the employees at all levels. These sort of power struggles can be incredibly detrimental to companies.

 

[Canto Forte]

That mentality is manifested in this update: they take the jobs from Emma,
the antagonist who was feuding with another dickhead for those same positions.
Elsa and Ed take the jobs for themselves by working themselves to the point of psychosis for them.

I identify strongly with her "if you want something, you must go and take it from someone" approach to corporate life, and I believe we'll see that manifest in-game in due time.

Sadly, her view is accurate, albeit incomplete

These sort of power struggles can be incredibly detrimental to companies.

Can anyone here, outta you fine gaming folks, guess who that ”Only one” is?

 

[Raife]

That sort of thinking is hogwash. It is unfortunately very prevalent. But it is still hogwash. Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game!

For some reason most corporations are more focused on internal politics and power games than trying to maximise the benefits (profits) for both the corporation and the employees at all levels. These sort of power struggles can be incredibly detrimental to companies.

Yes... and no.

I agree that a purely cooperative mindset would be much more productive. But corporations have politics and internal competition, just like everywhere else. That competition centres on how to best maximize value, although there's also a selfish element. That's inevitable. It's neither purely positive or purely negative... it just is.

Internal power struggles _can_ be detrimental... but a company with no internal tension or competition can also be sclerotic, staid and prone to groupthink.

Absolutely, capitalism is not a zero sum game. But there are always winners and losers, if only in a relative sense... and today's winner can be tomorrow's loser.

That's why Elsa is not wrong... but, as jufot says, far too cynical. And her answer is is incomplete.

 

[jufot]

That sort of thinking is hogwash. It is unfortunately very prevalent. But it is still hogwash. Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game!

For some reason most corporations are more focused on internal politics and power games than trying to maximise the benefits (profits) for both the corporation and the employees at all levels. These sort of power struggles can be incredibly detrimental to companies.

Seeing this as hogwash is definitely healthier, and I do envy that outlook, but no, I think capitalism is by and large zero-sum. It's designed to enrich the few at the expense of the many, and those who refuse to play the game tend to find themselves trampled, unfortunately.

As for why it happens despite being detrimental to the company? Because humans are

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.

Can anyone here, outta you fine gaming folks, guess who that ”Only one” is?

It's this guy. Elsa says she's an old friend who actually referred her to EO. I'm sure we'll see him again.

 

[Raife]

As for why it happens despite being detrimental to the company? Because humans are

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.

In other words, people are people.

The good news, baci, is that if you have realistically low expectations, some people will surprise you -- even really surprise you -- on the upside.

To get back to _Corporate Culture_... one of my hopes for the game is that sqwl decides that one or two characters will surprise us that way.... or have a chance to do so. I'm not holding my breath, though!

 

[Hildegardt]

Seeing this as hogwash is definitely healthier, and I do envy that outlook, but no, I think capitalism is by and large zero-sum. It's designed to enrich the few at the expense of the many, and those who refuse to play the game tend to find themselves trampled, unfortunately.

Well, it's not so much about refusing to play the game of capitalism. You can't really participate, if you don't have any capital, right? That's why Elsa is the catalyst of almost every single plot point. Because she's the one with the top hat and monocle in Ed's immediate vicinity.
It's actually pretty interesting how CC unintentionally makes the point that systemic issues often get shifted onto individual bogeymen. Ed sees every relationship as transactional, needs to compete with all men and take the women for himself. Instead of realizing how toxic this way of living is, he rather blames his "enemies" for his failings.
I don't think the game will ever go there and an AVN probably isn't the right place for this anyway. But that's why I'm a little afraid that the story could end up frustratingly shallow, if it turns out that the "a" variable is about turning Ed into an "alpha" for example.