Recommending Story-first games

[raynarnab]

After playing Bride of a Dead God, I'm in the mood for more CYOA and I'm seeking recommendations.

Does anyone know of a CYOA with similar themes? That is, a hero's journey adventure, without any unpleasantries like rape, slavery, mind control or anything non-consensual whatsoever. Non-sexual is fine, good writing is a must.

Not sure if you are still seeking more recommendations, but I really enjoyed

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. There is also a follow up on this game and this series is supposed to be part of a trilogy.

 

[jufot]

Occultus: Daughter of Darkness chapter 6 is out

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! This was a great episode with some important character development for Malady and has some solid worldbuilding about the politics of the vampire world.

 

[turbojoe]

Occultus: Daughter of Darkness chapter 6 is out

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! This was a great episode with some important character development for Malady and has some solid worldbuilding about the politics of the vampire world.

Thanks - you gave me a hint to another AVN of interest.
I´ll try this immediately

 

[K_Nakamura]

Inner Empire is a good one.

P.S. How am I supposed to keep up with the previous 200 pages in this thread?

 

[jufot]

P.S. How am I supposed to keep up with the previous 200 pages in this thread?

It's easy. Go to Preferences -> Posts per page and set it to 100. Now you only have 38 pages to catch up on

 

[Raife]

Also Race of Life new update is out too (but that one is $100 tier)

So... I'm still not quite sure yet if _Race of Life_ qualifies as story first. But, having played the update, I can say that it's an excellent game.

First, the things it does right,...even uniquely well for an AVN:

• The racing sequence in the new update... is fucking awesome. It feels kinetic and high stakes. There's a minigame, but it's easy to manage for a non-twitch gamer and still feels like an accomplishment when done well. But the best thing about it is the binary choice section, where visual cues and pre-race tips allow you to reason through the right outcomes.
• The LIs react to each other in broadly realistic ways. This is definitely not a harem game.
• It uses visuals, in a cinematic way, to add depth to the story. It reminded me of the best aspects of the latest _Leaving DNA_ update by Impious, in this respect.
• The sex scenes are great. They are erotic and, crucially, the LIs are active participants. There are still too many acrobatic porn poses, in some cases, for my taste... but they are far better than most.
• There are very distinctive non-LI NPCs, both male and female. Although the game has a very large cast, most of the the NPCs felt 'alive' to me.

There are a few problems, though:

1. Too much 'damsel in distress'. Most of the LIs in the game are in need of help, or extremely keen on an emotional attachment with the MC. This is related to the fact that...
2. The MC is a Gary Stu. Yes, he has emotional issues, mostly caused by his poor life choices. But his actual and latent strengths are OTT. I mean, the dude is a scientist with the body of a young Tom Selleck! His one achilles heel is his dog-humping-lamppost promiscuousness.
3. The 'best girl' is blindingly obvious after episode 2. She's the ex-wife. Hands down. She's the one LI who understands the MC's true nature... including all the warts. If the player makes exactly the right choices, the MC starts to actually see the ex- differently in a way that game represents visually... she slowly becomes beautiful to him, again. This is one of those games where the best girl and her story are so superior to the others that playing through alternative paths has little appeal.

I think the 'best girl' path in this game is hands down 'story first'. It's emotionally mature (painful, frankly) and resonant in a manner you rarely see represented in AVNs... as well as highly, highly romantic.

 

[camube]

So... I'm still not quite sure yet if _Race of Life_ qualifies as story first. But, having played the update, I can say that it's an excellent game.

First, the things it does right,...even uniquely well for an AVN:

• The racing sequence in the new update... is fucking awesome. It feels kinetic and high stakes. There's a minigame, but it's easy to manage for a non-twitch gamer and still feels like an accomplishment when done well. But the best thing about it is the binary choice section, where visual cues and pre-race tips allow you to reason through the right outcomes.
• The LIs react to each other in broadly realistic ways. This is definitely not a harem game.
• It uses visuals, in a cinematic way, to add depth to the story. It reminded me of the best aspects of the latest _Leaving DNA_ update by Impious, in this respect.
• The sex scenes are great. They are erotic and, crucially, the LIs are active participants. There are still too many acrobatic porn poses, in some cases, for my taste... but they are far better than most.
• There are very distinctive non-LI NPCs, both male and female. Although the game has a very large cast, most of the the NPCs felt 'alive' to me.

There are a few problems, though:

1. Too much 'damsel in distress'. Most of the LIs in the game are in need of help, or extremely keen on an emotional attachment with the MC. This is related to the fact that...
2. The MC is a Gary Stu. Yes, he has emotional issues, mostly caused by his poor life choices. But his actual and latent strengths are OTT. I mean, the dude is a scientist with the body of a young Tom Selleck! His one achilles heel is his dog-humping-lamppost promiscuousness.
3. The 'best girl' is blindingly obvious after episode 2. She's the ex-wife. Hands down. She's the one LI who understands the MC's true nature... including all the warts. If the player makes exactly the right choices, the MC starts to actually see the ex- differently in a way that game represents visually... she slowly becomes beautiful to him, again. This is one of those games where the best girl and her story are so superior to the others that playing through alternative paths has little appeal.

I think the 'best girl' path in this game is hands down 'story first'. It's emotionally mature and resonant in a manner you rarely see represented in AVNs... as well as highly, highly romantic.

i like the storyline with the daughter the most on Race of Life, she's really funny. i did not realized going in that the daughter would be the mcguffin of the story.
it took the wind out of my sail more than a bit.
I want to play it less afterward.
I still play it cuz there's no games left that i want to play (on renpy) but yeah i'm not that eager to "drop everything" to play it

This is the complete opposite of The Bite Revenant where the MC partner / mentor is an interesting character, and i like that kind of archetype too so, I want more updates of The Bite Revenant.

Now if only Deluca can have quicker updates, my gaming life would be perfect. Those are the games i want to play that i wish have short turnaround between updates.

Pale Carnation and Projekt Passion is a machine cuz those two updates pretty regularly in a 4 month basis, which is the perfect length.

Going back to Race of Life, I think Veronica is realistic tbh with you.
The dynamic between Allison and MC is great too but idk, it's funny to watch but they are too toxic for each other (depending on how we play them).
In "the real world", those two doesn't make a good pairing

Some of Race of Life characters are realistic, but some others are too out there. The Asian student whose name escaped me at the moment is too out there personality-wise.

 

[Raife]

It took the wind out of my sail more than a bit.
I want to play it less afterward.
I still play it cuz there's no games left that i want to play (on renpy) but yeah i'm not that eager to "drop everything" to play it

Give it another shot. During the racing sequence, the MC tapes her picture to the dashboard of his car, underlining the stakes and his desperation to win. As someone with a daughter of his own of about the same age... let's just say that I got a little something in my eye.

 

[Raife]

I have a love/hate relationship with Intertwined these days, and I want to end this on a high note, so let's start with the negatives:

Yeah... I think we've been over this territory before. I admire Nyx and her dedication to this game... but less (in terms of LIs and subplots) would have been much much more.

The best part of _Intertwined_ -- as you say -- is the relationship-rivalry between two pairs of female LIs. They may be some of the most resonant in AVNs I've played. If she had just focussed on those, the game would have been great.

I hope Nyx's next project is smaller, more tightly focussed, and explores the emotional bonds between her characters in ways that are both painful and true.

 

[Hildegardt]

So... I'm still not quite sure yet if _Race of Life_ qualifies as story first. But, having played the update, I can say that it's an excellent game.

I pretty much agree with everything you said.
Imo the game's biggest flaws are the PC's confusing characterization and that it's extremely padded. It seems like the length of the individual episodes is supposed to be a selling point, but it's just so unnecessary.

I think the 'best girl' path in this game is hands down 'story first'. It's emotionally mature and resonant in a manner you rarely see represented in AVNs... as well as highly, highly romantic.

On the flip side, if you're on her bad path, you get some major porny bullshit of the Gary Stu variety you mentioned: Apparently Allison is very very horny, because she hasn't been intimate with anyone since the divorce. She just wasn't ready, you know . But now she is just one last time.
There's a little of this or similar bullshit sprinkled throughout the game. It's very frustrating on the Veronica path. I almost like Veronica more than Allison, if only because reconciling with Allison would be some borderline humiliation fetish with how the PC is acting outside or despite my choices. But it seems like whenever the game gives me a choice to treat Veronica right, the PC's personality does a 180 in the next scene, where I don't get any choices.
And when we finally get to commit to Veronica, we get a silly retcon, like "Oh, I'm such a manly man and didn't want you to see me cry...", which is simply not true. Why did we get the choice to open up to Maggie the first time we ever met her and in literally the same scene the PC automatically blows Veronica off without player input?

I think the game is trying to portray the "bad guy" image that women are supposedly into so much, but it at the same time centers the game mechanics around the PC's redemption. It can be a little grating sometimes.

 

[Raife]

On the flip side, if you're on her bad path, you get some major porny bullshit of the Gary Stu variety you mentioned:

I think the game is trying to portray the "bad guy" image that women are supposedly into so much, but it at the same time centers the game mechanics around the PC's redemption. It can be a little grating sometimes.

Yeah, I think you've put your finger on the issue. The game _wants_ a big porn game audience, so the dev has created a Gary Stu surrounded by a large number of fawning LIs.

But... the dev's heart is with the redemption story... which transformed the 'true path' with the 'best girl' a story-first gem, surrounded by a somewhat porny carapace.

And, oh man -- I went back and played Allie's bad path as you suggested... and it's godawful. But, I think it makes sense. The MC's Gary Stu-ism is actually his fatal flaw... Allison wants to hate him but doesn't really hate him until the player's choices make it clear that the MC just sees her as an attractive, annoying fucktoy who happens to be the mother of his daughter. The way that scene concludes, with Alison smashing their picture... is just awful and terribly sad.

The good path is so on the money, though. There's something so compelling and true about making the terrible path sexual, and the good path non-sexual... but filled with repressed longing, resentment, and fear... and just a little, tiny spark of hope. That felt like intimacy, to me. Also: true hatred is often a sort of curdled love... which, again, makes both Allie's good and bad paths resonant.

As we've discussed before, intimacy tends to make players uncomfortable, because it involves exposing raw, real feeling. But that's the real story first stuff: that's why the ex's path, anyway, is story first. (Not sure about the rest of the game, though!)

 

[camube]

Give it another shot. During the racing sequence, the MC tapes her picture to the dashboard of his car, underlining the stakes and his desperation to win. As someone with a daughter of his own of about the same age... let's just say that I got a little something in my eye.

i'm pretty shocked it got leaked at $50 tier
that's pretty crazy

 

[jufot]

So... I'm still not quite sure yet if _Race of Life_ qualifies as story first. But, having played the update, I can say that it's an excellent game.

I mostly agree with your points, but not with the conclusion. It's primarily because I dislike nearly every character in the game.

Jake is an overall douchebag. He's an asshole, a bad husband, an even worse teacher, and a barely passable father. Despite all his bravado about doing "whatever it takes" for Lily, he still finds all the time in the world to fornicate with his students and basically fuck anything that isn't bolted to the ground. As a brilliant actress once said, "[Jake], that trollop, he'd shag an open wound." I really despise him, and being forced to play as him really saps the joy out of my experience.

Allison told him not to do anything stupid that could get him in jail, but he's already using grant money to pay for the institute and stealing materials from the lab to improve his car, which he uses for illegal street racing. Any of those alone would be enough to put him behind bars, but of course, he has plot armour.

Non-Allison LIs are largely uninteresting to me. The students lusting after an older teacher, the doctor who shamelessly flirts with a patient's father, and the colleague who is way too desperate and clingy are just... boring. Maggie seems to be the only normal character, but then her story is also just some telenovela cliché with a cartoon villain.

That leaves Cooper and Cammie. I don't like Cooper, the overgrown manchild, and I don't like Cammie since she clearly chose Jake over Allison during the fallout of his lechery.

This brings me to the two characters I actually like. The first is Allison, of course. She's strong, resilient, career-oriented and absolutely refuses to take shit from her douchebag ex. It doesn't hurt that she is very easy on the eyes Unfortunately, I'm stuck playing as Jake, who doesn't deserve her back. Like Hildegart said, it's total bullshit that she somehow didn't sleep with anyone else since the divorce, while Jake gets to be a manwhore It's lazy and cowardly writing, like BaDIK pulled with the blue-haired girl.

Now, this might be a bit controversial. The other character I like is Doctor Katzei. I like him because I can feel his frustration in my soul. There is nothing worse at a hospital than scared family acting belligerent and entitled. Abusing medical staff like that, especially for something they have no control over, would get you kicked out of any hospital here. It shows a certain disdain for overworked and underpaid healthcare workers, and no matter what Jake and Allison might think, their precious little baby is not the most important person in the building. Add to that the scenes with the nurse and later on with Dr. Mahamaya, it's obvious the dev has an axe to grind.

Anyway, plot-wise my only interest is Allison and I'm not sure if that's enough for me to continue with the next update. Time will tell...

 

[Raife]

I mostly agree with your points, but not with the conclusion. It's primarily because I dislike nearly every character in the game.

Jake is an overall douchebag. He's an asshole, a bad husband, an even worse teacher, and a barely passable father. Despite all his bravado about doing "whatever it takes" for Lily, he still finds all the time in the world to fornicate with his students and basically fuck anything that isn't bolted to the ground. As a brilliant actress once said, "[Jake], that trollop, he'd shag an open wound." I really despise him, and being forced to play as him really saps the joy out of my experience.

I don't think we actually disagree much at all, really. The MC is, as you say, an asshole trollop. He's sophomoric and otherwise despicable... not even an antihero. Just a cad.

But... if you're going to do a proper redemption arc, I submit that you need to start from rock bottom. He needs to begin as a full time asshole.

I started playing _Race for Life_ thinking, heh this is another version of _Where the Heart Is_, where the annoying, entitled Gary Stu cuts a swathe, in the finest porno style, through various LIs. And that's what most of the game is.

The thing is though... with Allison the MC starts to see for himself what was right in front of his face the whole time. The flashbacks, his renewed appreciation for how clever she is, her fierce determination... essentially, she's the real deal. Once the MC discovers this, following the shock to the system created by the accident, the game allows you to play a better version of the MC. Ignore all the other LIs and focus on the real deal and redemption. And that, I think, is a story worth playing.

I have priors. One of my favourite games, as you know, is PS:T... which is, essentially, about whether a character can change his essential nature. And one of my favourite novels is _The Caine Mutiny_... where the protagonist spends two-thirds of the book as a spoiled, entitled brat who reminds me too much of myself (especially the younger version... ugh). In both cases, though, the journey of self-realization, of becoming a decent sort of person, is all the more satisfying because it begins in such a dark place.

So... I don't know where RfL is going... but if the dev lets the MC learn how to be a better version of himself from Allison... well, _that's a story worth playing_ even if most of the game is not. And oh yeah... you're on the money about Katzel as well... the dev has an issue, there.

 

[jufot]

The thing is though... with Allison the MC starts to see for himself what was right in front of his face the whole time. The flashbacks, his renewed appreciation for how clever she is, her fierce determination... essentially, she's the real deal. Once the MC discovers this, following the shock to the system created by the accident, the game allows you to play a better version of the MC. Ignore all the other LIs and focus on the real deal and redemption. And that, I think, is a story worth playing.

See, if Jake was sincere about reconciliation, he would stop fucking everyone else. He'd especially tell his horny students to cut that shit. He says the right words to Allison, but words are cheap - it's action that matters. As it stands, it just looks like he wants in on everyone's panties, including Allison's.

[...] the protagonist spends two-thirds of the book as a spoiled, entitled brat who reminds me too much of myself (especially the younger version... ugh). In both cases, though, the journey of self-realization, of becoming a decent sort of person, is all the more satisfying because it begins in such a dark place.

That would be great, but Jake is nowhere near being a good person yet, so why is Allison all but ready to jump back in? Her righteous fury from the first episode is nearly gone, and with that dinner scene, she's been effectively reduced to fluttering her eyelashes at him like a school girl.

So... I don't know where RfL is going... but if the dev lets the MC learn how to be a better version of himself from Allison... well, _that's a story worth playing_ even if most of the game is not.

Agreed. There is a good story somewhere in there, being suffocated underneath all that porny nonsense.

 

[Raife]

That would be great, but Jake is nowhere near being a good person yet, so why is Allison all but ready to jump back in? Her righteous fury from the first episode is nearly gone, and with that dinner scene, she's been effectively reduced to fluttering her eyelashes at him like a school girl.

Now that's pretty simple: Allison actually loves the MC, which he in no way deserves. Her righteous fury was a cover for the fact that she wants him desperately to be better than he is. You must have known people who did not deserve their partners... this certainly seems to be the case with the MC. Allison is the tragic heroine... not the MC.

And here we do disagree. That scene was done well... she resists Mr. Manwhore in the end, and doesn't allow herself to believe that he has changed. That was the right call. He is, as you say, nowhere near a decent person yet.

It may be that the dev doesn't understand the gold thread he has to pull on. But I'm curious. We'll see.

 

[Hildegardt]

Unfortunately, I'm stuck playing as Jake, who doesn't deserve her back

If this was Allison's VN, f95zone would throw a fit and call Jake a "ruined LI".

It's actually pretty weird how Allison seems to be obligated to go easy on him, just because he's the protagonist. I mean, look how he's treating his new girlfriend. Maybe the first step into reconciliation would be showing that he's capable of having a relationship in the first place. Makes me prefer the Veronica path, just because I like Allison more and don't want her to end up with him.
The Lilly tragedy is kind of a copout. Is it supposed to show that, despite being a cheater, he's dependable? But only in a literal life or death situation?! He's such a great guy for not clubbing the seals.

 

[Raife]

If this was Allison's VN, f95zone would throw a fit and call Jake a "ruined LI".

The Lilly tragedy is kind of a copout. Is it supposed to show that, despite being a cheater, he's dependable? But only in a literal life or death situation?! He's such a great guy for not clubbing the seals.

You're right on both counts. And the fact is... neither we, nor Allison, see him as remotely dependable. He's essentially one of the _Lost Boys_ at this point, refusing to grow up. I've no idea whether he can.

The re-emergence of Allison's stalker will be an interesting testing point. Does the MC just defend her like a possessive alpha dog cartoon... or is the dev smart enough to make him sacrifice a certain idea of himself in order to defend the LI he doesn't deserve? The first step towards becoming a better person is understanding, and accepting, that you've been a bad one.

Let's call this Raife's theorem (naming an idea after himself is just the sort of self-aggrandizing, douchebag thing that Jake would do): the best LIs are always those that do not need the MC, and whom the MC does not, in all justice, deserve.

 

[jufot]

You must have known people who did not deserve their partners... this certainly seems to be the case with the MC. Allison is a the tragic heroine... not the MC.

Right, which just makes me despise him more.

And here we do disagree. That scene was done well... she resists Mr. Manwhore in the end, and doesn't allow herself to believe that he has changed. That was the right call. He is, as you say, nowhere near a decent person yet.

Fair enough. I still don't think she should have invited him over, let alone cook for him, but at least she didn't have sex with him.

Makes me prefer the Veronica path, just because I like Allison more and don't want her to end up with him.

That's such a great point. Keeping him away from Allison as an act of public service

The Lilly tragedy is kind of a copout. Is it supposed to show that, despite being a cheater, he's dependable? But only in a literal life or death situation?! He's such a great guy for not clubbing the seals.

Right, Lilly is mostly there to give him one redeemable quality against everything else about him. It's not enough, obviously.

Let's call this Raife's theorem (naming an idea after himself is just the sort of self-aggrandizing, douchebag thing that Jake would do): the best LIs are always those that do not need the MC, and whom the MC does not, in all justice, deserve.

I'll sign that declaration

 

[Deleted member 5467075]

Race of Life will join the very biggest names in the adult gaming industry, including Being a Dik and Freshwomen. It will make its creators millionaires. From that perspective, it is an outstanding success and its developers can be completely unapologetic. They can give a great big middle finger to anyone who poo-poos it because they know that they made a game that will be wildly popular. And personally, I think it's a very well-made, enjoyable porn game.

BUT

It does not belong on any story first list. As you guys have already dissected it, I'll only comment on one thing that has been bothering me since the first release.

While I understand that for many players, the Lily drama was impactful, to me it felt hamfisted and cheap. But worse, it completely disassembles MC's redemption story: MC's daughter is grievously wounded by a speeding car. His response is to participate in illegal street racing, which in turn threatens more innocent people with the exact type of harm which his daughter suffered? The writer could have used a million different things as a catalyst to get the racing stuff into the story, none of which would have thrown the moral quandary right in the player's face. Perhaps the writer is planning for MC to hit someone else's child and realize that what he is doing is wrong? Surely the immorality of his conduct would have occurred to him far earlier that that.

I've seen many people saying how nice it is to have a mature MC for a change, and I feel like we must have played different games. Maybe players are so used to playing students and out-of-work programmers that they can't tell the difference between maturity and having a job?