Recommending Story-first games

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raynarnab

Newbie
Dec 16, 2021
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The thing that many people here on F95 want is the original "Choose your own adventure" (CYOA) style, where each choice is a branch that goes to a different ending. In this style, your choices matter but this is hands down the most costly on the story scale/choice scale. One branch cuts the story length of every branch in half (or makes it take twice as long to develop). Two branches on a path reduce the story length to 1/4. Three to 1/8th. Etc. There's also the fact that you're really telling multiple independent stories, which begs the question, why not just separate the branches into multiple games?

Another method is the "Mass Effect" style. There, your choices affect individuals (Allies, LIs, etc) but not the overall story. The Reapers are coming regardless of who you romance. This isn't as expensive as CYOA but people complain that their choices don't matter. And, depending on how many LIs you add, it can still be really expensive. If you have 9 LIs, then, roughly, every time you go to make a sex scene, you've got to make 9 of them. Again, you're either going to have shorter/fewer sex scenes, or they're going to take 9 times as long to create.

Tlaero
TellTale Games creating the Walking Dead Series is notorious for false choices particularly for the ending episodes (characters dying). What usually would happen is that the other character would die in the next episode anyways and so the story didn't change dramatically enough (also now you dont need to deal with increasingly complex scenarios of some characters living vs others not and having to recreate a scene for every version of the alternative universe).

Some people were upset by it, but I enjoyed having the decision even if it didn't change the main story beat. Why? Simply because I loved how it created tension for my choices and for me the journey to make me feel emotions while reading a story was great. Ofcourse for people that really want a choice Tell Tale games is not for them. All in all it comes down to why is a reader reading the story. I do it because I enjoy the story and creation of tension, others want to craft their experience (even if it dilutes the story)
 
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Tlaero

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Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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A little question.
you all use first or third person?
In most of my games, I use 2nd person present tense. "You look down at your glass and sigh."

In my most recent one (Gemini), I used first person present tense. "I'm anxious and can't meet her gaze."

When I do flashbacks to things that happened in the past, I do third person past tense. "Michael fidgeted with his glass as he berated himself for not speaking up."

When I do text stories with occasional images as apposed to VNs, I write in third person past tense the way god intended. :)

Switching back and forth between them gives me fits. While editing I frequently find passages in the wrong person and tense because my mind didn't switch over fast enough.

Tlaero
 

FatGiant

Forum Fanatic
Jan 7, 2022
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A little question.
you all use first or third person?
Instead of answering, I'll ask a favor of you all.

12 years ago, a friend (that passed away shortly after) bugged me incessantly to put some of my stories online.

I didn't want to, still don't, but, accepted to make them happy (they were already terminal at that point).

So, I did, I put 3 short stories on a blog. Calling them short stories was a provocation to my friend, they aren't short, because they aren't but the introduction to a story. They wanted me to put some of my work on display, I did exactly that, "some of it". Yeah, we were mean to each other.

If you want to know what voice I use, take a bit of a read... You'll see pretty soon.



Peace :)

P.S.: Please understand that I am completely self-taught in English, don't judge me too hard. :)
 

Gothgirlgames

Active Member
Game Developer
Jan 26, 2024
744
1,022
Instead of answering, I'll ask a favor of you all.

12 years ago, a friend (that passed away shortly after) bugged me incessantly to put some of my stories online.

I didn't want to, still don't, but, accepted to make them happy (they were already terminal at that point).

So, I did, I put 3 short stories on a blog. Calling them short stories was a provocation to my friend, they aren't short, because they aren't but the introduction to a story. They wanted me to put some of my work on display, I did exactly that, "some of it". Yeah, we were mean to each other.

If you want to know what voice I use, take a bit of a read... You'll see pretty soon.



Peace :)

P.S.: Please understand that I am completely self-taught in English, don't judge me too hard. :)
I will have a look as soon i finish shooting Kurt scenes, doing it right now ^^

Actually, Have a teaser.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
 
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kotte

Member
Feb 11, 2018
182
318
To me 1 st person is more immersive in a way
There's a lot of talk about immersion around VN's, but to me it feels exaggerated. My fantasy can put me in the shoes of the MC whether they called "I" or not. Something I find it especially silly is when all the renders deliberately cuts out the MC's face, all in the name of "immersion".
I can identify with the MC even if they do not look like me.

Actually, this is something that I have always loved about reading. I can read a book about a black woman, and from the first page to the last, I feel everything she's feeling. I get to experience lives that are far from my own. And with a well-written VN, this is no different.
 

kotte

Member
Feb 11, 2018
182
318
Talking about choice and immersion, and since we have a bunch of devs/authors here:
How do you feel about letting the player choose the names of the characters?

I mean, the name is an important part of a character. A Jaqueline is probably different from a Jolene.
But at the same time, it is a harmless way to give the player some agency, without giving you a lot of work with branches.
 

MalkavianVamp

Formerly 'Jonte555'
Feb 22, 2023
282
405
Talking about choice and immersion, and since we have a bunch of devs/authors here:
How do you feel about letting the player choose the names of the characters?

I mean, the name is an important part of a character. A Jaqueline is probably different from a Jolene.
But at the same time, it is a harmless way to give the player some agency, without giving you a lot of work with branches.
I love games that let you choose your name traits ,perks like pale carnations for example but some games are tailored to have the name of mc fit into story like Cj from out of touch for example so depends on story author is telling
 

Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
1,033
5,072
Talking about choice and immersion, and since we have a bunch of devs/authors here:
How do you feel about letting the player choose the names of the characters?

I mean, the name is an important part of a character. A Jaqueline is probably different from a Jolene.
But at the same time, it is a harmless way to give the player some agency, without giving you a lot of work with branches.
It works if the game is going to be the only one in the series. But if you're going to have other games that refer to characters you named in the earlier games, the story is going to be really confusing.

Tlaero
 
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kotte

Member
Feb 11, 2018
182
318
It works if the game is going to be the only one in the series. But if you're going to have other games that refer to characters you named in the earlier games, the story is going to be really confusing.

Tlaero
But you don't think it could be a problem that your "Tommy" might become an "Arthur" or similar? :)
 

Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
1,033
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But you don't think it could be a problem that your "Tommy" might become an "Arthur" or similar? :)
It would certainly be a problem if the next game refers to him as "Tommy" and the player doesn't know who that is. It's especially problematic if the player always names his characters "Arthur" and now there are multiple Arthurs in the world to tell apart. And it's especially, especially, problematic if the game universe includes stories in other media than Renpy so there's no good way to get the player's choices for the names of previous MCs.

Now, if the game is a one-off it's not as big a deal. Sure, the player could use a terrible name, like "Shithead" but that just hurts them, not everyone else.

That said, I've only seen games that let you name your MC, never the LI or LIs. It kind of begs the question, if it's more immersive for the player to use his own name, why isn't it even more immersive to have him going after his RL high school crush? And that begs the further question, why not let the player decide the circumstances of the LI and MCs relationship to further match his situation in high school? And that ultimately leads to, why isn't the player just writing his own story?

Tlaero
 
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FatGiant

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Jan 7, 2022
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It would certainly be a problem if the next game refers to him as "Tommy" and the player doesn't know who that is. It's especially problematic if the player always names his characters "Arthur" and now there are multiple Arthurs in the world to tell apart. And it's especially, especially, problematic if the game universe includes stories in other media than Renpy so there's no good way to get the player's choices for the names of previous MCs.

Now, if the game is a one-off it's not as big a deal. Sure, the player could use a terrible name, like "Shithead" but that just hurts them, not everyone else.

That said, I've only seen games that let you name your MC, never the LI or LIs. It kind of begs the question, if it's more immersive for the player to use his own name, why isn't it even more immersive to have him going after his RL high school crush? And that begs the further question, why not let the player decide the circumstances of the LI and MCs relationship to further match his situation in high school? And that ultimately leads to, why isn't the player just writing his own story?

Tlaero
Right now, there's a rather interesting game suffering from that obsession with name change.

The game is The List by Uncle Loco . This game, as was explained by the Dev, is just the initial part of a multi-games story that "mostly" follow the same MC. So, it brings to the forefront the issue that you are talking about.

The MC we have right now, is going to go ahead and be the MC in further games, it comes to reason, that he should have the same name in the whole series. Since we can't foresee where the tech will evolve to in the future, if at the end of this rather large project, we will still be using Ren'Py or something else entirely, the most sensible thing would be to stick with the name the Author decided upon, so, no confusion arises.

But, alas, no. People want to name the MC after themselves. They continuously DEMAND in no uncertain terms, that they be given that right. No matter how many times you explain to them, that doing that is not ideal. They want it. They criticize the Author inability to allow them to change the MC's name. They asked a modder to create a mod to allow them that. It is so idiotic and so small minded that it boggles me that these persons are even able to breathe, much less read.

About the naming of LI's there are games that allow that. Then they try and go into the threads for those games and don't understand of whom others speak. Because ... nope, I got nothing...

I can understand a "customization" of an experience. Sure. When the game is pretty generic and does not rely too much on the characters, but mostly on what you do to them, OK, it can make sense to name your digital dolls. But, when the characters are an essential part of the plot, not as props, but as co-protagonists, I'm sorry... what are you trying to do? Re-write the story so it is about you? Is this what you mean by interactive?

Another concept that I rail against all the time is, Immersion.

This is a misnomer. People don't want Immersion, they want relatability. They don't want Reality, they want a representation of it, with which they can Relate. Experiences that evoke an echo in you, based on your past lived experiences. Because true Immersion, has was tested in several VR labs and abandoned, is absolutely unpleasant and no one could stand it.

What many people that claim Immersion want, is simply the feeling that "It could be Real". Even in scenarios where Fantasy and Science Fiction are the rule book.

I usually use the Default name, unless it is something idiotic like Chad or (very much) worse. Reading a story with me as the MC would actually bother me a LOT more.

Peace :(
 

seek3r

New Member
May 1, 2018
8
14
That said, I've only seen games that let you name your MC, never the LI or LIs. It kind of begs the question, if it's more immersive for the player to use his own name, why isn't it even more immersive to have him going after his RL high school crush? And that begs the further question, why not let the player decide the circumstances of the LI and MCs relationship to further match his situation in high school? And that ultimately leads to, why isn't the player just writing his own story?
Sinners Landing allows you to name the LIs, but it's the only one I've ever seen with that "feature".
I've never understood why, and I always choose the default names for the MC and LIs. It's the authors/developers story to tell, and the names are such an integral part of that - not just for sequels or expanding the universe, but also because characters from different cultural backgrounds or other regions of the world may have names that reflect their heritage, which can contribute to the world-building.
 

Hildegardt

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2017
1,091
2,240
The MC we have right now, is going to go ahead and be the MC in further games, it comes to reason, that he should have the same name in the whole series. Since we can't foresee where the tech will evolve to in the future, if at the end of this rather large project, we will still be using Ren'Py or something else entirely, the most sensible thing would be to stick with the name the Author decided upon, so, no confusion arises.
Kinda missing the point here. The confusion only arises, if the player character changes, but the previous one still appears in subsequent games. It's not confusing at all, if you only ever rename the same character and all the other names stay the same throughout all games.
Not sure what tech has to do with this. I don't think in the future programming will outgrow the use of variables or something. Or do you think declaring strings is a special feature of ren'py?

Another concept that I rail against all the time is, Immersion.

This is a misnomer. People don't want Immersion, they want relatability. They don't want Reality, they want a representation of it, with which they can Relate. Experiences that evoke an echo in you, based on your past lived experiences. Because true Immersion, has was tested in several VR labs and abandoned, is absolutely unpleasant and no one could stand it.

What many people that claim Immersion want, is simply the feeling that "It could be Real". Even in scenarios where Fantasy and Science Fiction are the rule book.
Idk, if only there was a commonly used term for this "feeling that "It could be Real"", for these truly deep stories that you can really dive into. Maybe we could call it something like submersion?
Jokes aside, a pet peeve of mine is people talking about realism, when they actually mean immersion. Fiction is inherently not real, but strives to be immersive. You know, like for example a pseudo-logical magic system can make a fantasy world more immersive. Or if there's some real stuff that makes the fake world more relatable, because relatability also helps with immersion believe it or not.
 
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FatGiant

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Jan 7, 2022
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Kinda missing the point here. The confusion only arises, if the player character changes, but the previous one still appears in subsequent games. It's not confusing at all, if you only ever rename the same character and all the other names stay the same throughout all games.
Not sure what tech has to do with this. I don't think in the future programming will outgrow the use of variables or something. Or do you think declaring strings is a special feature of ren'py?


Idk, if only there was a commonly used term for this "feeling that "It could be Real"", for these truly deep stories that you can really dive into. Maybe we could call it something like submersion?
Jokes aside, a pet peeve of mine is people talking about realism, when they actually mean immersion. Fiction is inherently not real, but strives to be immersive. You know, like for example a pseudo-logical magic system can make a fantasy world more immersive. Or if there's some real stuff that makes the fake world more relatable, because relatability also helps with immersion believe it or not.
I'm sorry. I didn't see your tail. I stepped on it not on purpose.

Peace :(
 
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5.00 star(s) 8 Votes