VN Ren'Py STWA: Unbroken [Pt. 7] [STWAdev]

4.70 star(s) 111 Votes

Ilhares

Engaged Member
Aug 19, 2019
2,887
10,962
but fighting over these games strikes me as the opposite of what they're designed for. Opinions differ. I respect yours. I even understand it. I just don't agree with it.
You're largely right, the point should simply be entertainment and relaxation. I often don't respect other people's opinions, though, because they're not worthy of it. I respect that they have a right to their opinion, I'm not the thought police, but some people are just clearly unhinged.

Somebody likes Reenie instead of Vi, or maybe only bangs the ring girls because they don't want to cross boundaries with their close friends? I can respect that they feel that way (even though I don't really understand how). You picking on Eternum was an excellent point.

It's like certain books/movies (Lord of the Rings comes to mind) or even religions - the base material is fine. It's the fans that make it intolerable.
 

talion777

Member
Apr 5, 2022
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333
It's like certain books/movies (Lord of the Rings comes to mind) or even religions - the base material is fine. It's the fans that make it intolerable.
That is a much more elegant and concise way of stating the point, and I wholeheartedly agree.
 

Porthas

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2021
1,266
2,679
I'd like a path where you can pick them all. Then they come at you in your sleep in a fit of jealous rage and you have to roll a die - BG3 style - and if you don't roll a natural 20 - you get stabbed to death.
 

Ragnar

Super User
Respected User
Aug 5, 2016
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12,852
I mean everybody knows he's a player or so the tabloids say. If any girl feels betrayed that would be their fault :WeSmart:
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RoryTate

Member
May 15, 2018
165
352
Perhaps part of the devoted fan base find it enjoyable to nitpick and have exhaustive arguments over trivia and which girl is better, or why the other person is wrong in their thoughts and feelings, but the rabid inflexibility of people and their desire to impose their views on others to me in these forums is both unnecessary and tiresome. Some threads are so unable to accept viewpoints that vary from unthinking adulation of some character or plot point that it's simply not worthwhile to venture opinions of any kind that are contrary to the cult mantra. The Eternum thread is a great example of this. I don't think it's fun. I think it's childish and stupid, and while I enjoy these games as a diversion and have my own preferences I'm appalled by the amount of time and emotional energy(and vitriol) that some people spend glorifying a cartoon. I feel that people should just enjoy these games for what they are, feel comfortable in their own preferences, and indulge in their kinks and fantasies in a judgment free zone. Maybe it just gives people something to do in between releases, but fighting over these games strikes me as the opposite of what they're designed for. Opinions differ. I respect yours. I even understand it. I just don't agree with it.
I completely understand what you mean when you say "tiresome". But it's important to realize that this isn't the argument many people are actually using when they oppose disagreement to their ideas. Their words are instead some form of: "Your criticism is ruining my ability to enjoy this." And, as I have stated before, hearing and engaging with criticism should only improve a person's enjoyment when something is truly good. And if you like something that's bad and has serious issues (I admit I do it from time to time), just accept that reality and continue enjoying it all you want, no matter what some words on a screen from an unreal online virtual world try to tell you.

Also, let me press "X" to doubt that the vast majority of people are "tired" of dealing with the same repeated criticism, since I most often hear these kinds of "don't ruin my fun" appeals within a short time after something new has just been released. Seriously, that's not enough time for a criticism to become "tiresome". Instead, that's only marketers and corporations and Stans wanting to suppress honest debate from deflating their hypenosis balloons. If something is genuinely well made, it will be a success and recognized as such because people can and do recognize and appreciate quality art. So once again, I contend that only bad products fear criticism and try to limit its reach.

Now this may sound strange to some, but I don't even think that "stuck in the mud tiresome positions" are an actual problem, since your reaction to them is something you have control over just as much as ignoring other people's personal likes and dislikes. Here's my advice:

  1. Start off any conversation in good faith and realize that not everyone is as familiar with a subject as you are, and that everyone has a first time for everything.
  2. Don't argue to convince the other person; form your replies to try and sway the 95% of people who are just reading, because they are the ones who are open to hearing your point of view.
  3. Choose to debate in order to hone and practice your critical thinking skills.
If you modify your approach to create constructive conversations based around the things you control, you never get discouraged, since when you choose to engage you always feel productive in doing so. You alone decide whether you feel tired or not. Other people or their thoughts are never "tiresome", unless you choose to interpret them as such.

You're largely right, the point should simply be entertainment and relaxation. I often don't respect other people's opinions, though, because they're not worthy of it. I respect that they have a right to their opinion, I'm not the thought police, but some people are just clearly unhinged.

Somebody likes Reenie instead of Vi, or maybe only bangs the ring girls because they don't want to cross boundaries with their close friends? I can respect that they feel that way (even though I don't really understand how). You picking on Eternum was an excellent point.

It's like certain books/movies (Lord of the Rings comes to mind) or even religions - the base material is fine. It's the fans that make it intolerable.
This accusation of "toxic fandoms" has been taken way too far I think, and it's well past the point of reasonableness at this time. Yes, when emotions get high and discussions dissolve into personal insults, that is unproductive and unhealthy. This is especially true when it comes to people's "best girls" in an adult VN, since being attracted to Elspeth or Amrit or Kana carries with it a shit-ton of emotional desire and personal investment. I get that. After all, I rock an "Elspeth Exclusive" save path as my canon story. However, well-moderated discussions already do not allow for direct personal attacks, and F95zone is no exception to removing that kind of comment. So why is everything suddenly so "toxic"? The rules are already in place to deal with the problems that lead to unhealthy behaviour, so what gives? Well, the main emerging issue I see is that some people make their fandom for something a core part of their "identity". For example, if someone really loves Noir detective movies, and is a "cinema aficionado", you might be able to predict how they tend to dress, their tastes in music, or even their political views. Because of this, a comment simply expressing a general dislike for the genre of Noir cinema will get interpreted as a personal attack on a person's core sense of identity, and they will often respond with very strong emotions to the simple existence of another person who isn't exactly like them. But that's not rational, to put it mildly. And this is the point where "being respectful" crosses a line nowadays and gets taken way too far in the other direction. Simply expressing my own likes and dislikes is not a personal attack on anyone, nor does it create a "toxic fandom", and that should not even be a reasonable thought that crosses anyone's mind.

The meme of "living rent-free inside someone's head" has become popular recently, and I think that says something about the general mental state of the online world. Because people don't seem to have the tools anymore for dealing well with peer pressure, and so they instead require constant "affirmation" and "coddling" to "feel safe". This kind of obsession with imagined slights and externalizing phobias has become the real problem in online interactions IMO, and it is getting expressed by the observation that someone is "living rent-free" inside another person's mind. Feelings of safety are something you have personal ownership of, in the end, and they are not something that anyone else controls except you.

Hopefully that explains why I try to promote more debate and criticism, not less, when it comes to important and interesting ideas. And human sexual desire is a damn fun subject to explore in every depth imaginable.
 

talion777

Member
Apr 5, 2022
224
333
I completely understand what you mean when you say "tiresome". But it's important to realize that this isn't the argument many people are actually using when they oppose disagreement to their ideas. Their words are instead some form of: "Your criticism is ruining my ability to enjoy this." And, as I have stated before, hearing and engaging with criticism should only improve a person's enjoyment when something is truly good. And if you like something that's bad and has serious issues (I admit I do it from time to time), just accept that reality and continue enjoying it all you want, no matter what some words on a screen from an unreal online virtual world try to tell you.

Also, let me press "X" to doubt that the vast majority of people are "tired" of dealing with the same repeated criticism, since I most often hear these kinds of "don't ruin my fun" appeals within a short time after something new has just been released. Seriously, that's not enough time for a criticism to become "tiresome". Instead, that's only marketers and corporations and Stans wanting to suppress honest debate from deflating their hypenosis balloons. If something is genuinely well made, it will be a success and recognized as such because people can and do recognize and appreciate quality art. So once again, I contend that only bad products fear criticism and try to limit its reach.

Now this may sound strange to some, but I don't even think that "stuck in the mud tiresome positions" are an actual problem, since your reaction to them is something you have control over just as much as ignoring other people's personal likes and dislikes. Here's my advice:

  1. Start off any conversation in good faith and realize that not everyone is as familiar with a subject as you are, and that everyone has a first time for everything.
  2. Don't argue to convince the other person; form your replies to try and sway the 95% of people who are just reading, because they are the ones who are open to hearing your point of view.
  3. Choose to debate in order to hone and practice your critical thinking skills.
If you modify your approach to create constructive conversations based around the things you control, you never get discouraged, since when you choose to engage you always feel productive in doing so. You alone decide whether you feel tired or not. Other people or their thoughts are never "tiresome", unless you choose to interpret them as such.



This accusation of "toxic fandoms" has been taken way too far I think, and it's well past the point of reasonableness at this time. Yes, when emotions get high and discussions dissolve into personal insults, that is unproductive and unhealthy. This is especially true when it comes to people's "best girls" in an adult VN, since being attracted to Elspeth or Amrit or Kana carries with it a shit-ton of emotional desire and personal investment. I get that. After all, I rock an "Elspeth Exclusive" save path as my canon story. However, well-moderated discussions already do not allow for direct personal attacks, and F95zone is no exception to removing that kind of comment. So why is everything suddenly so "toxic"? The rules are already in place to deal with the problems that lead to unhealthy behaviour, so what gives? Well, the main emerging issue I see is that some people make their fandom for something a core part of their "identity". For example, if someone really loves Noir detective movies, and is a "cinema aficionado", you might be able to predict how they tend to dress, their tastes in music, or even their political views. Because of this, a comment simply expressing a general dislike for the genre of Noir cinema will get interpreted as a personal attack on a person's core sense of identity, and they will often respond with very strong emotions to the simple existence of another person who isn't exactly like them. But that's not rational, to put it mildly. And this is the point where "being respectful" crosses a line nowadays and gets taken way too far in the other direction. Simply expressing my own likes and dislikes is not a personal attack on anyone, nor does it create a "toxic fandom", and that should not even be a reasonable thought that crosses anyone's mind.

The meme of "living rent-free inside someone's head" has become popular recently, and I think that says something about the general mental state of the online world. Because people don't seem to have the tools anymore for dealing well with peer pressure, and so they instead require constant "affirmation" and "coddling" to "feel safe". This kind of obsession with imagined slights and externalizing phobias has become the real problem in online interactions IMO, and it is getting expressed by the observation that someone is "living rent-free" inside another person's mind. Feelings of safety are something you have personal ownership of, in the end, and they are not something that anyone else controls except you.

Hopefully that explains why I try to promote more debate and criticism, not less, when it comes to important and interesting ideas. And human sexual desire is a damn fun subject to explore in every depth imaginable.
I understood your argument the first time. I don't agree with it. I also find your attempt to overlay a template of how I and others should "properly" enjoy a forum to be patronizing in the extreme, as well as unwelcome. I find excessive wrangling over LIs tiresome and accusations of people being wrong for liking one or the other instead of liking the "right" one both stupid and childish, as well as discounting the personal preferences of other users of the forum, which are all equally valid. I also find that it tends to hide and/or dilute other content which gets lost in the middle of the endless wrangling.Since I don't want to go down the same rabbit hole I was just complaining about I'm going to leave it at that and end my contribution here. You have heard my opinion and I have heard yours. You can enjoy the forum any way you like, and I hope that you will.
 
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RoryTate

Member
May 15, 2018
165
352
I understood your argument the first time. I don't agree with it. I also find your attempt to overlay a template of how I and others should "properly" enjoy a forum to be patronizing in the extreme, as well as unwelcome. I find excessive wrangling over LIs tiresome and accusations of people being wrong for liking one or the other instead of liking the "right" one both stupid and childish, as well as discounting the personal preferences of other users of the forum, which are all equally valid.
Unfortunately I think we may be talking past each other at this point, since I don't recognize anything in your response in what I was trying to say. However, one of the most important rules of the forum is that comments must be reasonably related to STWA: Unbroken, so I'll respect that guideline and leave it there before this drifts too far afield. Instead, I'll just mention a comment thread several pages ago in this very forum where a user shared their strong dislike for Elspeth because she – in their words – didn't respect boundaries and was very manipulative of others. I responded in good faith with an alternate take on her actions as being much more positive than that, and long story short, at the end of our deep back and forth we had both moderated our positions somewhat, and – most importantly – we both agreed that we had a better understanding and appreciation of her character because of our interactions. I just hope that is something others can get to experience when dealing with different viewpoints, even when it comes to the passionate like and dislike for LIs in an adult VN.
 

MF_DOOM

Active Member
Mar 1, 2023
748
3,025
I find excessive wrangling over LIs tiresome and accusations of people being wrong for liking one or the other instead of liking the "right" one both stupid and childish, as well as discounting the personal preferences of other users of the forum, which are all equally valid.
Arguing about personal taste is so pointless, I never understood it either.
"I prefer dark chocolate over milk chocolate"
"You are wrong!!!!!!!!!!!"
Seriously?
 

RoryTate

Member
May 15, 2018
165
352
Arguing about personal taste is so pointless, I never understood it either.
"I prefer dark chocolate over milk chocolate"
"You are wrong!!!!!!!!!!!"
Seriously?
That's a bit of a strawman that doesn't represent the vast amount of online media discussion, and I think most people would laugh at anyone who ended a conversation that came down to personal tastes in such a silly manner. I wouldn't say it doesn't happen, but the internet is a vast place where everything can and will occur. However, cherry picking the worst possible example is not going to promote understanding of what is happening in general conversations like this. The point of discussing why a certain character is liked/disliked, or a story element is good/bad, etc, is because people often have objective reasons for thinking the way they do. For example:

"I like character x more than character y." "And why is that?" "Because character y took action z, and that bothered me because..." "Oh, well did you notice that character y only did that because...." "Oops, I completely missed that part. Thanks, I'll give them a second chance."

That's also a discussion that can happen (and it did, as an overly broad description of my back and forth regarding Elspeth earlier in this very thread), about a personal preference that might be presumed to be subjective. But in the end it is anything but subjective, and people can and do change their minds, so perhaps it's worthwhile to not prejudge these discussions so harshly.

I do agree that the adage "people have different tastes" is a perfectly valid way to end a conversation. But it is a horrible way to start one, because in practice it usually means no discourse happens at all. People just call everything subjective, retreat to their echo chambers, or go silent, and that's a shame to see. To be honest, I often don't know what I think about a subject until I've had a long time to consider it through and hear other ideas about it, so how is it that suddenly everyone seems to instantly know me better than myself these days? I can't even express what I think yet, but somehow they can telepathically do it for me? It's strange the number of people who just assume so much about others. Maybe it's because social interaction is perceived as such a minefield that this shift is happening? I don't know. I just think we share more in common than we think, deep down. Just...actually talk with people. They will surprise you.
 
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Dessolos

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Jul 25, 2017
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That's a bit of a strawman that doesn't represent the vast amount of online media discussion, and I think most people would laugh at anyone who ended a conversation that came down to personal tastes in such a silly manner. I wouldn't say it doesn't happen, but the internet is a vast place where everything can and will occur. However, cherry picking the worst possible example is not going to promote understanding of what is happening in general conversations like this. The point of discussing why a certain character is liked/disliked, or a story element is good/bad, etc, is because people often have objective reasons for thinking the way they do. For example:

"I like character x more than character y." "And why is that?" "Because character y took action z, and that bothered me because..." "Oh, well did you notice that character y only did that because...." "Oops, I completely missed that part. Thanks, I'll give them a second chance."

That's also a discussion that can happen (and it did, as an overly broad description of my back and forth regarding Elspeth earlier in this very thread), about a personal preference that might be presumed to be subjective. But in the end it is anything but subjective, and people can and do change their minds, so perhaps it's worthwhile to not prejudge these discussions so harshly.

I do agree that the adage "people have different tastes" is a perfectly valid way to end a conversation. But it is a horrible way to start one, because in practice it usually means no discourse happens at all. People just call everything subjective, retreat to their echo chambers, or go silent, and that's a shame to see. To be honest, I often don't know what I think about a subject until I've had a long time to consider it through and hear other ideas about it, so how is it that suddenly everyone seems to instantly know me better than myself these days? I can't even express what I think yet, but somehow they can telepathically do it for me? It's strange the number of people who just assume so much about others. Maybe it's because social interaction is perceived as such a minefield that this shift is happening? I don't know. I just think we share more in common than we think, deep down. Just...actually talk with people. They will surprise you.
100% this hell sometimes ill have an attachment to a character in some game's where I can't really explain why I do but I just do. To the point I can't see my self liking another more than said character., even if there is some harsh truths about my favorite character pointed out where I probably would typically not like them in normal circumstances. But then these type of discissions help me to see things I may over look despite having a bias or just things I never considered because I interpret a scene or scenario completely differently. Which is why I love AVN's.
 
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schinoize

Member
Jun 8, 2021
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Check In 01/03/2024

When trying to decide this update if I wanted the title screen for Els to show more of her girlish or tomboy sides I had difficulty. So of course I just went ahead and did both.
I've returned my focus back to still renders now, the goal is to try and get all the stills completely finished up, at least first draft wise, before returning to the final batches of animation. As of writing 201 1 renders are posed, with about 1993 finished rendering. I've been decently fortunate this update to have yet to have any scenes with 5 hour render times, though now that I've said it I'm sure the render fairies are preparing. Honestly the only scene I anticipate big times on is the final scene, as usual just because of the number of people in the scene.
Animations have returned to a backburner position. When I have the time while renders are cooking I'll be making fine tunes to the batches I've already done. Just ironing out the final tweaks and details before they're ready to ship. The hope is that I'll have finished both the stills and that about the same time. Then I'll return to work on the last two scenes I need animation on, while I code and have any stills that need fixing rendering.
Not many superlatives beyond that. Thank you all for joining me in another exciting year. Really hoping it's a big one here.
Thank you as always for the support. I hope you have a lovely rest of your week.
Sláinte!
Do you still have the title screen render from this Check In? Link seems to be broken now.
 

RoryTate

Member
May 15, 2018
165
352
how dare you say Elspeth is not special? D:
I have to agree, considering that's one of my favourite renders of her. Disheveled and dirty from working hard, not caring about how she happens to look, and all the more sexy because of it.
 
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4.70 star(s) 111 Votes