VN Ren'Py Summer's Gone [S1 Steam + DLC] [Oceanlab]

[faramata]

OK - so let's tackle the 'rational' comment first:

Any human endeavor can fail - from friendship, marriage, & job to New Year's resolution to lose X weight by Y date.

So - do we stop living and enjoying different aspects of life because this is a fact?

No

Determination and drive are keys to success, aka you get back up regardless of how many times you get knocked down.

Every creator has experienced this and every creator who is still active has gotten up one more time than they have been knocked down.

Is there a risk of the following: Ocean gets bored and stops creating, he gets hit by a bus and can no longer create, a CME hit Europe sending it into the dark ages, (insert any other disaster you want that affects small to large groups of people - Ocean included - up to and including the entire planet).

YES

Rationally - bad shit happens.

Rationally - good things also happen.

You posit, as certain: '1. either one dies before game is done, 2. game gets abandoned.'

I disagree.

Neither of us have the crystal ball to prove our points so we will simply have to agree to disagree about your certainty of doom.

Now:

Summers Gone is The most ambitious AVN I support with my $.

It has a creation horizon going into the 2040s at the current rate of creation.

This tells me I have decades to look forward to more of Summers Gone, and I view that as a good thing, another 'companion' for the journey that lay before me.

I get to enjoy a story with characters that resonate with me and take a journey with a Very good storyteller who is constantly working to improve his craft.

Would I like more story more often - Of Course!!

But I would not want it at the expense of diminishing the quality I've come to enjoy and associate with Summers Gone.


My final thoughts --

If SG stopped today and we got no more of this amazing AVN - I would still count every $ I spent supporting Ocean as well spent.

I would still rate SG as a top four AVN of all the AVNs I've enjoyed up to this date.

Good stories have and do enrich my life - Summers Gone is among them.

Cheers!!

This forum needs a barf emoticon...

 

[Penfold Mole]

This forum needs a barf emoticon...

You'd be the first to get barfed on, then.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I agree, there is far to much cynicism when creative pursuits require a lot of sacrifices. One of the things is "the current rate of creation" - every extrapolation is based on current technology, not the stuff that will be available in a year or two. It is based on current work practice, rather than Ocean actually becoming successful enough to expand his team (first expanding into reliable sub contractors, then later maybe casual employees? Who knows?)

Extrapolating on the status quo would assume no inventions ever get made - history has shown human endeavour increases in complexity and discovery. So why is there not an equal belief in both potential sides of the coin? The negative disposition seems very disproportionate.

Ocean simply needs a little more velocity to get the ball rolling a little bit faster, and suddenly there are a lot more options. My predictions is that once the reworks are both done, they will take a huge weight off Ocean's mind, freeing up mental space to focus on going forward. CH3 in WiaB kinda will be that moment for that story, as it's already progressing differently to the original, enough that it's doing it's own thing and no longer a remake tying Ocean to the past work. SG will achieve that with CH5 full - only new content from then. THe second thing is the steam release - for better or worse, SG will be public, which means it is fixed in place. Ocean won't be able to do reworks like he can with patrons. That will also be good for Ocean - something that is locked off, that he can't return to, only build on.

I'm actually quite excited and hopeful for the next development cycle of SG CH6 and WiaB CH4. Both are developing in plot rapidly even if people's preferred kinks are somewhere over the horizon - I'm impatient to know more about what's going on.

I believe that Steam success will open a lot of doors, from added creation help (in the form of good/great independent creators like the person who Ocean hired to create the outdoor exercise field for Summers Gone, CH 4) to more and better music options.

I think Ocean's success could even get indie music support with some creators deciding to give Ocean preferential content access/cost knowing that his growing audience will also get introduced to their music and likely grow their fan base.

I held off on adding these kinds of points though as I wanted to focus on what we know now versus our hopeful thinking of what might come with Steam success and future tech advances.

Cheers!!

 

[BobTheDuck]

I believe that Steam success will open a lot of doors, from added creation help (in the form of good/great independent creators like the person who Ocean hired to create the outdoor exercise field for Summers Gone, CH 4) to more and better music options.

I think Ocean's success could even get indie music support with some creators deciding to give Ocean preferential content access/cost knowing that his growing audience will also get introduced to their music and likely grow their fan base.

I held off on adding these kinds of points though as I wanted to focus on what we know now versus our hopeful thinking of what might come with Steam success and future tech advances.

Cheers!!

I agreed - it's too easy to project our own wishes onto any endeavour. I think it's important to consider that there is no reason that is more likely for success or failure, as some setbacks lead to better advances. Almost every success or failure arrived from somewhere left field when looking in hindsight; the majority of our projections never eventuate in quite the way we think they will. Much easier to enjoy the scenery on the way, especially the well rendered scenery

 

[sorco2003]

OK - so let's tackle the 'rational' comment first:

Any human endeavor can fail - from friendship, marriage, & job to New Year's resolution to lose X weight by Y date.

So - do we stop living and enjoying different aspects of life because this is a fact?

No

Determination and drive are keys to success, aka you get back up regardless of how many times you get knocked down.

Every creator has experienced this and every creator who is still active has gotten up one more time than they have been knocked down.

Is there a risk of the following: Ocean gets bored and stops creating, he gets hit by a bus and can no longer create, a CME hit Europe sending it into the dark ages, (insert any other disaster you want that affects small to large groups of people - Ocean included - up to and including the entire planet).

YES

Rationally - bad shit happens.

Rationally - good things also happen.

You posit, as certain: '1. either one dies before game is done, 2. game gets abandoned.'

I disagree.

Neither of us have the crystal ball to prove our points so we will simply have to agree to disagree about your certainty of doom.

Now:

Summers Gone is The most ambitious AVN I support with my $.

It has a creation horizon going into the 2040s at the current rate of creation.

This tells me I have decades to look forward to more of Summers Gone, and I view that as a good thing, another 'companion' for the journey that lay before me.

I get to enjoy a story with characters that resonate with me and take a journey with a Very good storyteller who is constantly working to improve his craft.

Would I like more story more often - Of Course!!

But I would not want it at the expense of diminishing the quality I've come to enjoy and associate with Summers Gone.


My final thoughts --

If SG stopped today and we got no more of this amazing AVN - I would still count every $ I spent supporting Ocean as well spent.

I would still rate SG as a top four AVN of all the AVNs I've enjoyed up to this date.

Good stories have and do enrich my life - Summers Gone is among them.

Cheers!!

I really liked this message, there are some things I agree with and some things I don't agree with. However, I only respond for one reason, statistically, at least one of those who read your message will not be alive at the end of SG.

I agree, there is far to much cynicism when creative pursuits require a lot of sacrifices. One of the things is "the current rate of creation" - every extrapolation is based on current technology, not the stuff that will be available in a year or two. It is based on current work practice, rather than Ocean actually becoming successful enough to expand his team (first expanding into reliable sub contractors, then later maybe casual employees? Who knows?)

Extrapolating on the status quo would assume no inventions ever get made - history has shown human endeavour increases in complexity and discovery. So why is there not an equal belief in both potential sides of the coin? The negative disposition seems very disproportionate.

Ocean simply needs a little more velocity to get the ball rolling a little bit faster, and suddenly there are a lot more options. My predictions is that once the reworks are both done, they will take a huge weight off Ocean's mind, freeing up mental space to focus on going forward. CH3 in WiaB kinda will be that moment for that story, as it's already progressing differently to the original, enough that it's doing it's own thing and no longer a remake tying Ocean to the past work. SG will achieve that with CH5 full - only new content from then. THe second thing is the steam release - for better or worse, SG will be public, which means it is fixed in place. Ocean won't be able to do reworks like he can with patrons. That will also be good for Ocean - something that is locked off, that he can't return to, only build on.

I'm actually quite excited and hopeful for the next development cycle of SG CH6 and WiaB CH4. Both are developing in plot rapidly even if people's preferred kinks are somewhere over the horizon - I'm impatient to know more about what's going on.

I agree more with Pax's initial position, you cannot project on what you do not have. Today, as things stand, I subscribe to the time he indicates. If things change, it will be at that time that it should be corrected, not today.
Because if we stick to the facts, the year 2022 was much more productive for Ocean than 2023. And that's with what he has on hand today, the improvements he has already purchased.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I really liked this message, there are some things I agree with and some things I don't agree with. However, I only respond for one reason, statistically, at least one of those who read your message will not be alive at the end of SG.


I agree more with Pax's initial position, you cannot project on what you do not have. Today, as things stand, I subscribe to the time he indicates. If things change, it will be at that time that it should be corrected, not today.
Because if we stick to the facts, the year 2022 was much more productive for Ocean than 2023. And that's with what he has on hand today, the improvements he has already purchased.

I actually took the comment to mean that Ocean will either die or abandon SG, which is why I said I disagreed and mentioned disaster scenarios potentially impacting him.

I treat it is a given that some of those who enjoy a creation will not survive it to that creation's completion.

I actually use the negative comments I read about SG and other AVNs as fuel for exercise - part of my 'get off my ass' and workout plan. I also use every athletic scene I view in every replay for the same purpose.

It is too easy to get comfortable and Not exercise so I find some of my workout fuel in unusual places...

Cheers!!

 

[Fun Shaundi]

Perfectionists tend to do things slower cause well, they're perfectionists. It's a curse and a blessing.
But also, I wouldn't underestimate the stubbornness of a perfectionist to finish/accomplish/complete something.

 

[girlfairdev]

Perfectionists tend to do things slower cause well, they're perfectionists. It's a curse and a blessing.
But also, I wouldn't underestimate the stubbornness of a perfectionist to finish/accomplish/complete something.

I just might puke.

 

[Ayhsel]

Perfectionists tend to do things slower cause well, they're perfectionists. It's a curse and a blessing.
But also, I wouldn't underestimate the stubbornness of a perfectionist to finish/accomplish/complete something.

There are diminishing returns.

Ocean quality is already wayyyy over what is needed. Focus on speed would be most welcome instead.

 

[AlexFXR]

Interesting... I thought the book club meeting was a waste of an update. Just kind of indulgent and didn't move the story forward, other than the scene with Sasha and the MC at the end of the gathering, but that could have happened elsewhere.

This is Ocean's style, 90% chatter without meaning and only 10% useful information. When Regium made the game, everything was the other way around.

 

[Ray_D]

This is Ocean's style, 95% chatter without meaning and only 5% useful information. When Regium made the game, everything was the other way around.

hey man how did that situation develop, from what I understand during the first versions of summe's gone another programmer was developing the game, I'm going to assume that was Regium. what happened to him, he retired or he couldn't complete the game and gave it to Ocean.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

There are diminishing returns.

Ocean quality is already wayyyy over what is needed. Focus on speed would be most welcome instead.

I believe that Ocean is creating Sumers Gone as he envisions it. We know from a few of his comments that some of his vision was not achievable, particularly a few years ago, due to hardware and software constraints (budget as well).

As his capabilities to craft SG grow, coupled with hardware and software improvements through time, he is better able to capture and share this vision with us.

AVNs are a relatively new horizon for artists to use to showcase their visions.

Imagine if GOT was a visual novel and then imagine it as the creation of one man with limited funding. How much of the writer's vision would have to be sacrificed just to get the AVN started?

How much would it evolve (quality, animations, and VA for example) as the writer made a name for himself, including the increased resourcing from early success?

I'm not advocating that Ocean slow development to a crawl to get to some magical 99.99% level of quality, but I do want him to feel the artistic freedom to tell us this story his way.

I recognize, as well, that others feel differently.

I'll support Ocean with whatever choices he makes right now based on what he has delivered so far and his commitment to consistent communication with his supporters.

Cheers!!

 

[Maviarab]

hey man how did that situation develop, from what I understand during the first versions of summe's gone another programmer was developing the game, I'm going to assume that was Regium. what happened to him, he retired or he couldn't complete the game and gave it to Ocean.

Regium was just doing the graphics and coding. The story was Oceans. Not exactly sure what happened from memory, I think life just took over and he didn't have the time/incination anymore.

 

[Ayhsel]

I believe that Ocean is creating Sumers Gone as he envisions it. We know from a few of his comments that some of his vision was not achievable, particularly a few years ago, due to hardware and software constraints (budget as well).

As his capabilities to craft SG grow, coupled with hardware and software improvements through time, he is better able to capture and share this vision with us.

AVNs are a relatively new horizon for artists to use to showcase their visions.

Imagine if GOT was a visual novel and then imagine it as the creation of one man with limited funding. How much of the writer's vision would have to be sacrificed just to get the AVN started?

How much would it evolve (quality, animations, and VA for example) as the writer made a name for himself, including the increased resourcing from early success?

I'm not advocating that Ocean slow development to a crawl to get to some magical 99.99% level of quality, but I do want him to feel the artistic freedom to tell us this story his way.

I recognize, as well, that others feel differently.

I'll support Ocean with whatever choices he makes right now based on what he has delivered so far and his commitment to consistent communication with his supporters.

Cheers!!

I agree with most of what you said.

But, like with everything, there are cost a d benefit analysis.

I want him to do his vision. But he also said at some point he has 5 stories to do. I want them to do those too.

In the end, this is a production exercise. You have input, essentially time and effort. You have a production process, his workflow and his machines. And you have output: writing, scenes, choices, renders.

Say, for example, his vision requires him to put more resources on render quality. In particular time. His budget is 24 hours (cant buy time), less 10 between sleep and eating. So 14. Also, productivity decreases over the day as you get tired, so say effective 10 hours per day. Should he focus on addinf anothe freckle to Nami or should he focus on writing another path?

In the end, you can have a vision but by definition, you can only do what you can do given your resources and production process. Better hardware would improve production process for same inputs, but better hardware is developed over time. So at some point, you need to say "this render is good enougha" and move on.

Optimizarion exercise. Given his budget on resources (all type of resources) and current and expected production process, he maximizes the output.

I am of the view that rhe quality dimension os already way more than is needed. Extra focus should be directed to increasing quantity, while trying not to lower quality too much.

 

[charlesrich]

I did the math...

Female NPCs:

Adrianna, Alyson, Amber, Anna, Ayua, Bella, Celina, Charlie, Cindy, Claire, Desiree, Emilia, Eva, Miss Harrison, Coach Hill, Jenna, Karen, Katie, Kelly, Larissa, Layla, Louise, Madison, Maja, Miss Marla, Mikala, Mila, Molly, Nadia, Nami, Nancy, Nia, Penelope, Robin, Sasha, Silvie, Sonya, Susan Gale, Victoria, Zara, circa 20 other Hotties = 60 babes

Holes:

Mouth, Vagina, Anus = 3 holes per Female NPC (I left out the other 5 holes, 'cause that would be skull-fucking and that's just plain impolite)

Result:

There is a total of at least 180 holes to be penetrated by the MC's penis.

Recommendation:

I expect Ocean to introduce a running counter so we can tick off each and every hole penetrated as the game progresses... and, by God, they better all be raw by the end of the game. We are watching!

The battle royale between Nika and William Zane to be the biggest man-whore in the SG/WIAB-verse is the game we deserve!!! I hope there's no pencil-sharpener effect on Nika's dick, though.

Disclaimer:

I left out Summer ('cause that could turn out to be necrophilia) and Nojiko ('just doesn't seem right and hasn't she suffered enough?) from the Female NPC list.

2nd Disclaimer:

a BIG /S... obviously!

If none of those holes belong to Nojiko, then nothing else matters

 

[dan_roger69]

If none of those holes belong to Nojiko, then nothing else matters

If he gets that many holes (180) he will die of STD's

 

[John972]

I believe that Ocean is creating Sumers Gone as he envisions it. We know from a few of his comments that some of his vision was not achievable, particularly a few years ago, due to hardware and software constraints (budget as well).

As his capabilities to craft SG grow, coupled with hardware and software improvements through time, he is better able to capture and share this vision with us.

AVNs are a relatively new horizon for artists to use to showcase their visions.

Imagine if GOT was a visual novel and then imagine it as the creation of one man with limited funding. How much of the writer's vision would have to be sacrificed just to get the AVN started?

How much would it evolve (quality, animations, and VA for example) as the writer made a name for himself, including the increased resourcing from early success?

I'm not advocating that Ocean slow development to a crawl to get to some magical 99.99% level of quality, but I do want him to feel the artistic freedom to tell us this story his way.

I recognize, as well, that others feel differently.

I'll support Ocean with whatever choices he makes right now based on what he has delivered so far and his commitment to consistent communication with his supporters.

Cheers!!

Agreed. I appreciate SG the way it is (story, story pacing, visuals, audio/soundtrack), and accept that slow progress is the penalty to be paid at this time.

Deciding to develop, create, and tell the stories HIS way was the BEST decision Ocean ever made. Thank goodness he didn't cave to the naysayers or run game development like a popularity contest with constant polls etc. F95 is a graveyard filled with abandoned games by developers who went down that particular path.

I much prefer to be along for the ride with the current AVN as it is, whatever the outcome, than to get a poorer overall quality, rushed but finished AVN (or even something along the lines of the first version of the game up to and including Ch 2).

It's like the punters who argue the audio soundtrack should be dropped from SG so the Season 1 lewds can be retained. Really? Sound is such an integral part of the overall experience... the AVN is much poorer without it.

 

[JJJ84]

I believe that Ocean is creating Sumers Gone as he envisions it. We know from a few of his comments that some of his vision was not achievable, particularly a few years ago, due to hardware and software constraints (budget as well).

As his capabilities to craft SG grow, coupled with hardware and software improvements through time, he is better able to capture and share this vision with us.

AVNs are a relatively new horizon for artists to use to showcase their visions.

Imagine if GOT was a visual novel and then imagine it as the creation of one man with limited funding. How much of the writer's vision would have to be sacrificed just to get the AVN started?

How much would it evolve (quality, animations, and VA for example) as the writer made a name for himself, including the increased resourcing from early success?

I'm not advocating that Ocean slow development to a crawl to get to some magical 99.99% level of quality, but I do want him to feel the artistic freedom to tell us this story his way.

I recognize, as well, that others feel differently.

I'll support Ocean with whatever choices he makes right now based on what he has delivered so far and his commitment to consistent communication with his supporters.

Cheers!!

As Ayhsel has pointed out with the Cost & Benefit analysis, there should be a point where he should be saying "it looks good enough" in terms of visuals, and move onto other aspects of the game that really needs more attention - such as speed and more content (for various LIs of the game).
There's also the fact that the this game (and WIAB, given that's going through rework as well) leaves vast majority of other VNs on this site in dust in terms of visuals.
The game already looks gorgeous; just how much more is he willing to push with the new hardware and visuals when resources spent on that could have been actually spent on something else?

So unless he puts his foot down on visuals at some point, he's gonna be in perpetual cycle of the following (please note, I didn't actually make the following diagram, a mutual of mine did);

Spoiler: Ocean's Cycle

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

And while I would like to praise Ocean for being a quality focused, the more the above cycle gets repeated, I'd say his state of being a quality junkie becomes more of a detriment than a boon, or as Ayhsel put it more aptly than me, diminishing returns.

 

[BobTheDuck]

As Ayhsel has pointed out with the Cost & Benefit analysis, there should be a point where he should be saying "it looks good enough" in terms of visuals, and move onto other aspects of the game that really needs more attention - such as speed and more content (for various LIs of the game).
There's also the fact that the this game (and WIAB, given that's going through rework as well) leaves vast majority of other VNs on this site in dust in terms of visuals.
The game already looks gorgeous; just how much more is he willing to push with the new hardware and visuals when resources spent on that could have been actually spent on something else?

So unless he puts his foot down on visuals at some point, he's gonna be in perpetual cycle of the following (please note, I didn't actually make the following diagram, a mutual of mine did);

Spoiler: Ocean's Cycle

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

And while I would like to praise Ocean for being a quality focused, the more the above cycle gets repeated, I'd say his state of being a quality junkie becomes more of a detriment than a boon, or as Ayhsel put it more aptly than me, diminishing returns.

This is why I'm excited for the steam release - very hard to go back and change content on a public release - once people own it, I'm sure Steam have rules to prevent reworking content - or making it difficult to quickly change, otherwise people could change the content after approval which would be a nightmare for their legal duties to buyers.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I really liked this message, there are some things I agree with and some things I don't agree with. However, I only respond for one reason, statistically, at least one of those who read your message will not be alive at the end of SG.


I agree more with Pax's initial position, you cannot project on what you do not have. Today, as things stand, I subscribe to the time he indicates. If things change, it will be at that time that it should be corrected, not today.
Because if we stick to the facts, the year 2022 was much more productive for Ocean than 2023. And that's with what he has on hand today, the improvements he has already purchased.

I should clarify: I'm not suggesting that anyone plan a project on uncertain mythical advances. Work should always be scheduled based on what you have, estimates should be on current practices, but the trend is that computers improve far more rapidly than my finances can keep up. It would be foolish to think Ocean will still be on the same CPU in 10 years. In that time, computing will be vastly different to what it is now. I'm currently writing from a 10 year old laptop (it's become my throw around) that cries looking at what my main work machine can do. My current computer is a beast, and I expect to replace it roughly every three years so I have to plan for that financially, mainly because new software runs terribly on old CPU instructions. Cost of computing power is decreasing as a trend. If people work in any computer field and expect their computer to be cutting edge for more than 6 months, they're fooling themselves.

So being aware of tendencies in the industry is just forward thinking - keeping a finger on the pulse of your own specific industries' developments so that you don't waste money trying to stay on the bleeding edge, but you weigh up the positive and negative trends. As a business, I have to think of fall back positions, or the cost of replacement, and half the time replacement will be something new with better technology

The hope thing is simply that people put greater gravity and import on the negative than the positive, looking for problems so as to avoid disappointment. Without hope that the future can be better, why would I bother getting out of bed? Coffee is good but sleep is better if there's nothing but the status quo to grind through. Life is dynamic.

Hope doesn't mean burying my head in the sand either. My day to day life doesn't succeed or fail based on what chapter of SG I can load up at any point in time, so I prefer to rely on coffee Exactly the same as relying on things you don't have, an apocalyptic need for prophesying Ocean's problems is just as irrelevant. His greatest track record is he is persistent, and that's enough for me today.

On not being around to see how the story ends, well, that's the main existential crisis of life (not to diminish it, because it haunts me to often). I drink coffee to keep the void at bay.