- Nov 13, 2022
- 1,845
- 6,141
- Thread starter 7767
- Start date
- Sep 24, 2023
- 307
- 502
Why? MC's action is completely justified from a legal point of view. Before his eyes, some crazy woman hits a girl with her car and then tries to shoot him. Perhaps she wants to kill him and get rid of the witness to avoid punishment. He has every right to self-defense.
- Dec 24, 2018
- 1,107
- 5,729
The principle of proportionality doesn't apply to the theft, the theft is quantifiable. All the Holgersons need is for those cameras that Bella claims are inactive to be recording, and Nika is screwed. There is no such thing as proportionality in morality, that is why the saying two wrongs don't make a right is a great guide. Most importantly, criminal acts in society are not mitigated by any criminal activity on the other side. I can't murder a drug dealer, I can't take the law into my own hands and decide what is fitting.
An eye for an eye is not justice; the point of law is not to preserve moral behaviour, it is to preserve social function - the rules exist essentially to keep peace within the container we call society while we're all stuck in it. If I wish to make comparitive morality, I can only do so when my threat/power is greater than society's collective power - I have to have either enough leverage or force to ensure no one can bring consequences, or hope I am small and petty enough to not be worth the effort of punishment.
However, SG's universe has a theme of every action having a consequence (which is something Nika repeats to himself), so comparitive morality is a lie in the games narrative. Nika believes he can be a vigilante (or as you say, simply doesn't care for a variety of plausible reasons). But consider it this way: if there are such intense consequences for winning a basketball game through simple mind games, how would a sliding scale work for theft? I'd imagine execution at least
Getting back to the money thing, in a legal sense, if Nika is caught, no one will care about motives. He took the money, we even know that his motives were purely selfish, and he just wanted it - he took the opportunity. THere is no ay to mitigate his motivations by comparisons to the Holgersons (who we have no evidence of any wrong doing prior to this moment). Nika breaks and enters, destroys property and steals money purely because he hates the guy for dissing his appearance and being associated with people who verbally bullied Mila (despite her calming the situation down and letting it go). So Nika's reasons are not at that moment about the 'plan'. That comes the following day. They are just doing this purely on spite.
Oh and I forgot this quote about Bella's beliefs about Stefan, because my memory of the changes in S1 Full hasn't yet sunk in:
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content.
Log in or register now.
The plan is only formed after Amber receives the invitation the the gala, and Mila is accused by Stefan the day after. Nika exploits Bella's distress to set up revenge - AFTER already stealing money AND vandalising AND breaking and entering - to get revenge for being called a hobo. Oh revenge and fun. He's not even rocking a panic attack, or anything, this is him being completely comfortable being a criminal, and having no sense of proportionality. At this point, Nika's only interaction with Mario is the street scene, and the only info is what Bella says. Nika isn't deciding anything other than his blood is high over a perceived insult. It's so over the top.
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content.
Log in or register now.
This actually marries into his reason for getting into fights - it made him feel alive, as he mentions to Amber in therapy. I think what you say about living in a sealed jar is probably the key to this - Nika has no concept of the consequences, so his actions are free in this moment. Part of the narrative (I think) will show he starts developing awareness of consequences, and that will be part of him becoming a better person (both in mental health and in social standing). So we already see that he questions VIc crossing the road, that wouldn't have happened without him, Mila getting accused wouldn't have happened, Sonya will probably get in trouble for the games when the parents discover there's no professor involved, Nika's basically having a bad influence on everyone in some way, even if he is charming in other ways. Essentially, he is a catalyst in their stories as much as they are a catalyst in his. For example, I think that the Holgersons were waiting for an opportunity to do something to Mila (if we take all the small comments to heart and read between the lines) and Nika just provoked that opportunity:
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content.
Log in or register now.
- Mar 10, 2024
- 795
- 1,013
Thats how I felt with the scene with Mila at the tree spot Nadia told her about. The original scene was more intimate, they were physically close, Steam one when they are talking they are distant the feels was gone. Overall feels like the emotions of the entire story got watered down.
Marla was protecting the girl from the bizarre behavior of the MC, as he behaved like a total lunatic. The whole scene was ridiculous.
What an odd way to start a game whose plot revolves around healing ...
- Dec 24, 2018
- 1,107
- 5,729
Prior to Ch 3 we had some sort of anti hero noire style VN and made sense in context of a sadist with a tormented past. It was cut once the rework started and the plot direction changed - it was merely one of the last legacies of the original story to be removed.
Having said that, you're responding to someone who thinks legally justified self defense is shooting someone AFTER disarming the threat.
- Jul 29, 2020
- 389
- 515
- Jan 18, 2022
- 941
- 6,177
This.
Plus if you shoot someone unarmed just because he/she was a threat earlier it would not be covered by self-defense, at least in Germany, and I daresay every european country.
It is only self-defense here as long as yourself and/or you helping someone unable to defend themselves against is attacked. The moment the MC had the gun from Marla in his hands the attack was over.
- Jan 17, 2021
- 1,100
- 1,831
Question about english terminology, when you say Stefan is planning on having a mistress, is nothing related to femdom stuff right? The only time i see the word "mistress" is in femdom games but i´m not sure that meaning is the same in your setence. I have seen that expression in other games like Yakuza Saga and i always think about femdom stuff but it doesn´t make sense with the situation. Is just for learn and be sure for the next time i see the word
About the tag of domination yeah, i have always thought that those tags are for future content, but i don´t know how works the tag thing. Mods (i suppose) put them knowing the future content or the tags are added when a new content/kink appear in the game?
I´m sorry guys, but i´m with the other side of this discussion.
If someone enter in my house and i´m a hunter, i will probably take my gun and shoot the intruder even if he is laying in the floor disarmed and reduced.
Both of you are right, of course, and you have the law with you but i think criminals lose their rights when they try to attack other people´s rights. I don´t know if you know Bukele, president of El Salvador in center/south America, i like his model of treatment for criminals.
In my country, Spain, some months ago there was a case very polemic, an old man with 80 years old killed a guy who had a criminal past when he entered to his house with a chainsaw for steal him. The old man was a hunter in his young days so he grabbed his gun and shot the intruder, and when the intruder was in the floor blooding the old mand reloaded his weapon and shot him again, this time in the head (or back, i don´t remember well). The old man was accused of murder and was forced to pay a compensation to the intruder family...
In that case yeah, the laws are for everyone and he comitted a crime too, even if he was only defending himself, his wife and his property but... Seems like criminals have more rights than normal people, and justice seems to fight more againts citizens who drive above the limit speed than punish criminals who rape, murder, make traffic drugs...
- Jan 18, 2022
- 941
- 6,177
Well I can only say in Germany this would be homicide and in the best case the shooter would get a suspended prison sentence. I could PM you some articles about such cases, but they are only in German.
- Mar 13, 2021
- 4,796
- 8,406
First, he was NOT defending himself.
Secondly, he killed a man, therefore he is a murderer.
Thirdly, you should NEVER give a 80 years old dude a weapon, because old grandpas geezers are mostly old bonkers.
Fourthly, THIS IS OFF TOPIC
Fifth, basic F95 forum rules tells that YOU MUST NOT talk about flaming sensitive topics (ethics, law, politics and so on), therefore I'm going to report you.
Sixth, I don't give a damn about anyone's political opinions on this forum. I'm NOT here for anyone's rantings.
- Jan 17, 2021
- 1,100
- 1,831
- Jan 17, 2021
- 1,100
- 1,831
By the way, you are going to report me because i´m off topic but you have written your opinion too, and after doing it you have realized that this is off topic and bla bla bla.
Are you going to report yourself too for doing the same or you just are upset because i don´t have the same opinion as you?
I agree with you about the current efforts to 'protect' criminals from the consequences of their choices.Question about english terminology, when you say Stefan is planning on having a mistress, is nothing related to femdom stuff right? The only time i see the word "mistress" is in femdom games but i´m not sure that meaning is the same in your setence. I have seen that expression in other games like Yakuza Saga and i always think about femdom stuff but it doesn´t make sense with the situation. Is just for learn and be sure for the next time i see the word
About the tag of domination yeah, i have always thought that those tags are for future content, but i don´t know how works the tag thing. Mods (i suppose) put them knowing the future content or the tags are added when a new content/kink appear in the game?
I´m sorry guys, but i´m with the other side of this discussion.
If someone enter in my house and i´m a hunter, i will probably take my gun and shoot the intruder even if he is laying in the floor disarmed and reduced.
Both of you are right, of course, and you have the law with you but i think criminals lose their rights when they try to attack other people´s rights. I don´t know if you know Bukele, president of El Salvador in center/south America, i like his model of treatment for criminals.
In my country, Spain, some months ago there was a case very polemic, an old man with 80 years old killed a guy who had a criminal past when he entered to his house with a chainsaw for steal him. The old man was a hunter in his young days so he grabbed his gun and shot the intruder, and when the intruder was in the floor blooding the old mand reloaded his weapon and shot him again, this time in the head (or back, i don´t remember well). The old man was accused of murder and was forced to pay a compensation to the intruder family...
In that case yeah, the laws are for everyone and he comitted a crime too, even if he was only defending himself, his wife and his property but... Seems like criminals have more rights than normal people, and justice seems to fight more againts citizens who drive above the limit speed than punish criminals who rape, murder, make traffic drugs...
I think, like a number of the discussions we have on this thread, that we need to remember that SG is an AVN taking place within a society that has law and order but not specifically one RL set of rules from any one country.
It establishes the framework within which this story can be told and enjoyed by people from many countries and does so in a manner that allows for us to recognize in SG - many/all of the things we have seen in the country/countries we have lived/live in:
* Theft from the Holgersons occurs with some kind of future consequences (the who and what TBD)
* Bullies like Melanie Ceril seem to get away with middle school (in the U.S - the equivalent of school for kids of about 12 - 14 years of age) and likely high school (the equivalent of school for kids of about 15 - 18 years of age) attacks on kids about their age.
* Police officers harass specific people, often with impunity (justified/unjustified)
* The disappearance/death of children
These are just a few examples.
My point is the framework is meant to provide basic boundaries for the story but not interfere with the telling of the story.
We need to bring a measure of the 'suspension of disbelief' to enjoy many stories and this is just one.
Ex. I am looking forward to the chance for the MC to romance Amber and get physical with that Very Hot MILF.
This means that, in RL - she would be putting her professional reputation and licenses in jeopardy to have sex and romance with one of her younger patients.
In AVN world - this is fine - we accept that this is part of the story.
I think we need to bring the same kind of acceptance to other 'rough edges' of the Summers Gone story.
Who cares that the drug named by Ocean (when Sasha gives the MC a pill to help stop his panic attack during the book club event) has XYZ effects over time versus ABC effects over time.
We all understood - from the perspective of the story - what was happening (and got to enjoy discussions focused on another detail from the mystery of Sasha).
It is, after all, Not a true-life retelling of certain events with an emphasis on verifiable events only...
Cheers!!
- Jan 5, 2022
- 46
- 71
We have already discussed this. I agree with everything listed specifically regarding the theft of money and do not condone it (precisely this). The principle of proportionality is used in judicial systems and it would be strange not to apply it when making any personal decisions. The trivial question is “is it worth it or not.”The principle of proportionality doesn't apply to the theft, the theft is quantifiable. All the Holgersons need is for those cameras that Bella claims are inactive to be recording, and Nika is screwed. There is no such thing as proportionality in morality, that is why the saying two wrongs don't make a right is a great guide. Most importantly, criminal acts in society are not mitigated by any criminal activity on the other side. I can't murder a drug dealer, I can't take the law into my own hands and decide what is fitting.
An eye for an eye is not justice; the point of law is not to preserve moral behaviour, it is to preserve social function - the rules exist essentially to keep peace within the container we call society while we're all stuck in it. If I wish to make comparitive morality, I can only do so when my threat/power is greater than society's collective power - I have to have either enough leverage or force to ensure no one can bring consequences, or hope I am small and petty enough to not be worth the effort of punishment.
However, SG's universe has a theme of every action having a consequence (which is something Nika repeats to himself), so comparitive morality is a lie in the games narrative. Nika believes he can be a vigilante (or as you say, simply doesn't care for a variety of plausible reasons). But consider it this way: if there are such intense consequences for winning a basketball game through simple mind games, how would a sliding scale work for theft? I'd imagine execution at least
Getting back to the money thing, in a legal sense, if Nika is caught, no one will care about motives. He took the money, we even know that his motives were purely selfish, and he just wanted it - he took the opportunity. THere is no ay to mitigate his motivations by comparisons to the Holgersons (who we have no evidence of any wrong doing prior to this moment). Nika breaks and enters, destroys property and steals money purely because he hates the guy for dissing his appearance and being associated with people who verbally bullied Mila (despite her calming the situation down and letting it go). So Nika's reasons are not at that moment about the 'plan'. That comes the following day. They are just doing this purely on spite.
Oh and I forgot this quote about Bella's beliefs about Stefan, because my memory of the changes in S1 Full hasn't yet sunk in:
We have no objective reasons not to trust Bella's words about cameras. If we just go back to the assumption I mentioned in another dialogue, that Holgerson knows who really got into the house and wants to use it somehow. Oooh, evil genius.
Morality is an even wider swamp. There are generally accepted dogmas, and there are personal distortions. For some reason, one example came to mind (I have no idea why) from Battlestar Galactic. In one of the episodes the hero needs to make a decision and shoot at the “bus”. The threat may or may not be real, but the cost is all passengers. From a moral point of view, these are equally interesting scales. You are either a highly moral hero who saved everyone and made a difficult decision. Or a mass murderer. I emphasize that this is just an example to highlight the flexibility and individuality of morality.
[Note in the margin. It’s kind of sad that they don’t make stories like this in TV series anymore. Wrong egg size.]
Further. Criminal acts are not always perceived poorly by society and are very often mitigated through presentation and purpose. If a police officer shoots a robber running into a crowded store with a toy shotgun without first shouting a code phrase, he will break the law and be condemned by the system. But you are unlikely to hear condemnation of his actions from representatives of society.
I didn’t say to throw around the phrase “an eye for an eye.” All I'm saying is that if you don't like a person, you can put a nail under his ass.
It’s important here that I apply all these moral things to actions. Nika himself can say anything. Maybe in the SG universe you are immediately shot for theft (often he just talks pretentious bullshit that sounds like self-justification).
I don't agree. This is not entirely true, in my opinion. The plan begins to work with Nika at night when this decision is given to the player. Further, in the case of both options, the essence of the conversation in Bella’s room can be tailored to your choice. Until this moment, Nika also has time to think whether his “fun” is worth the consequences.
(But there is one nuance here, I don’t remember how the plot goes if you don’t go anywhere at night. I went through this line once, quickly, for the sake of interest.)
Here. I like this version too. She just fits my assumption about the Holgersons' awareness. They needed a reason to ruin Mila’s life (but I don’t think that this is just another “plan”, rather they are just assholes) and the eldest needed some kind of leverage in relation to Bella, be it because of a boner or just so that she would stop wedging in his relationship with Amber. And here and there the phrase “we know that it was you, but...” comes up.
Last edited:
- Dec 24, 2018
- 1,107
- 5,729
Oh yeah, mistress is an old fashioned english word for the female partner outside of your marriage, the person you regularly cheat with. I'm saying Stefan isn't looking for a girlfirend if he's after Amber, he'd divorce his wife first. If he doesn't Amber immediately knows that Stefan is only using her for sex and is keeping her on the side, while keeping his wife for appearances.Question about english terminology, when you say Stefan is planning on having a mistress, is nothing related to femdom stuff right? The only time i see the word "mistress" is in femdom games but i´m not sure that meaning is the same in your setence. I have seen that expression in other games like Yakuza Saga and i always think about femdom stuff but it doesn´t make sense with the situation. Is just for learn and be sure for the next time i see the word
About the tag of domination yeah, i have always thought that those tags are for future content, but i don´t know how works the tag thing. Mods (i suppose) put them knowing the future content or the tags are added when a new content/kink appear in the game?
I´m sorry guys, but i´m with the other side of this discussion.
If someone enter in my house and i´m a hunter, i will probably take my gun and shoot the intruder even if he is laying in the floor disarmed and reduced.
Both of you are right, of course, and you have the law with you but i think criminals lose their rights when they try to attack other people´s rights. I don´t know if you know Bukele, president of El Salvador in center/south America, i like his model of treatment for criminals.
In my country, Spain, some months ago there was a case very polemic, an old man with 80 years old killed a guy who had a criminal past when he entered to his house with a chainsaw for steal him. The old man was a hunter in his young days so he grabbed his gun and shot the intruder, and when the intruder was in the floor blooding the old mand reloaded his weapon and shot him again, this time in the head (or back, i don´t remember well). The old man was accused of murder and was forced to pay a compensation to the intruder family...
In that case yeah, the laws are for everyone and he comitted a crime too, even if he was only defending himself, his wife and his property but... Seems like criminals have more rights than normal people, and justice seems to fight more againts citizens who drive above the limit speed than punish criminals who rape, murder, make traffic drugs...
I'm just glad we don't have a character who shoots people after disarming them. I can get plenty of games like that on steam already
Of course Pax, I agree - except that the more consistent the world building, the more impact of the story. I regularly play RPGs which require suspension of disbelief, but the internal cause and effect has to obey its own logic, otherwise everything happens randomly.I agree with you about the current efforts to 'protect' criminals from the consequences of their choices.
I think, like a number of the discussions we have on this thread, that we need to remember that SG is an AVN taking place within a society that has law and order but not specifically one RL set of rules from any one country.
It establishes the framework within which this story can be told and enjoyed by people from many countries and does so in a manner that allows for us to recognize in SG - many/all of the things we have seen in the country/countries we have lived/live in:
* Theft from the Holgersons occurs with some kind of future consequences (the who and what TBD)
* Bullies like Melanie Ceril seem to get away with middle school (in the U.S - the equivalent of school for kids of about 12 - 14 years of age) and likely high school (the equivalent of school for kids of about 15 - 18 years of age) attacks on kids about their age.
* Police officers harass specific people, often with impunity (justified/unjustified)
* The disappearance/death of children
These are just a few examples.
My point is the framework is meant to provide basic boundaries for the story but not interfere with the telling of the story.
We need to bring a measure of the 'suspension of disbelief' to enjoy many stories and this is just one.
Ex. I am looking forward to the chance for the MC to romance Amber and get physical with that Very Hot MILF.
This means that, in RL - she would be putting her professional reputation and licenses in jeopardy to have sex and romance with one of her younger patients.
In AVN world - this is fine - we accept that this is part of the story.
I think we need to bring the same kind of acceptance to other 'rough edges' of the Summers Gone story.
Who cares that the drug named by Ocean (when Sasha gives the MC a pill to help stop his panic attack during the book club event) has XYZ effects over time versus ABC effects over time.
We all understood - from the perspective of the story - what was happening (and got to enjoy discussions focused on another detail from the mystery of Sasha).
It is, after all, Not a true-life retelling of certain events with an emphasis on verifiable events only...
Cheers!!
I think it's also valuale to some people to see where our attention is being pushed by the narrative - is Ocean specifically misleading us about this character or this situation? Is he hiding something behind the actions? Mostly the answer is yes, Ocean has ulterior motives in most characterisations, so digging in to the reasons is one way to guess at some of the connections between characters and events, especially how the wider concept of the shared universe develops.
This is not to detract from the simple enjoyment of the story unfolding of course. Something well written should be able to be enjoyed with our without subtext.
I think we're mostly understanding each other's points of view now even if we have differences, so it has been profitable to explore this topic.
The thing I mainly disagree with is "All I'm saying is that if you don't like a person, you can put a nail under his ass." This to me IS Nika's problem. He doesn't like Mario, and after being criminal, says he now wants to get more revenge. Where does this end? It is completely unbalanced, and he exploited Bella to do it, specifically mentioning she's emotionally vulnerable right now before outlining the plan.
The second thing is that Bella goes on the heist whether or not Nika joins. This is a separate one off thing. The next day, Stefan appears mentions he was robbed by Mila to AMber, and mentions the Gala. THEN Nika and Bella develop the plan involving getting Stefan to sleep with Mario's gf. The heist was spontaneous, not part of the plan, which is why Nika know nothing about heirlooms until Bella went further than defacing Mario's car.
If Nika doesn't go on the heist, you still start the plan at exactly the same point - the heist is not canon, but the plan is for every playthrough, and Mila is still blamed. If Nika doesn't go, Nika talks with Nami, and it is mentioned that Nika has been charged before. Obviously we can't know in one playthrough. It also affects whether Bella kicks you in the nuts or not in the basketball game.
Last edited:
- Sep 24, 2023
- 307
- 502
Exactly. You sound like a viewer who knows Marla's actions, but have you tried to put yourself in the MC's shoes? What would you do if a gun was pointed at you?
I don’t quite understand how this is related to the temporary impotence of MC? He has been suffering from impotence for several years, and in all these years he has never turned to a doctor with this problem. There are a lot of plot holes associated with this.
- Mar 13, 2021
- 4,796
- 8,406
If they wipe it off, they'll wipe my answer as well, of course. As it always happens.
Slow down. The specifics of Nika's trauma are still unknown to us. What happened to Summer, and why is she "gone"? Ocean will take years to give us this tale, depending on how many chapters remain.
So buckle up and enjoy the ride while ....
- Jul 12, 2020
- 8,195
- 18,200
Modern take on the world. The word has historically, for hundreds of years, been used to refer to a side piece away from your marriage.