Ren'Py Summertime Saga [v21.0.0 wip.4468] [Kompas Productions]

[papasmurf]

holy shit

23,760
patrons
$62,899
per month


Jesus Christ

 

[cadwaladr]

I wouldn't have a job if the world worked that way.

If an enterprise doesn't possess the flexibility, workforce, methodology, or time to complete a process as part of a project, do you know what they do? They hire contractors. I contract for a living. I come in, do a thing, and leave when it's finished. Rinse and repeat, that's my role.

The fact that this update is taking upwards of ~100% longer than the original estimate should be proof enough that he's drowning and from a project management perspective there's either a breakdown in planning or productivity that needs to be addressed.

Both would be fixed by hiring on competent temporary hands.

I would understand if Cookie was in the same position as indie devs who largely have to finance their own projects OOP before they earn their big payout, but he's pulling in ~60k/mo off Patreon alone.

There is no logical argument to be made for why he refuses to hire on additional help when it's clearly needed.

I know this place is pretty much a cult and this entire post will be slandered and misrepresented but I still felt this needs to be said and I would say most of the popular VNs have a similar issue.

You're not allowed to point out that the emperor is terrible at project managing. I have for a while and all you get is vitriol despite it being blatantly obvious.

As you say, this update is taking twice the amount of time it was estimated to take. That means a 4 month project turns into an 8 month project. Usually this is avoided because going over time = going over budget. Not with patreon, hence the accusations of milking. He's not milking in the way Gumdrop or ICSTOR are milking, but he is milking because there is no pressure of a deadline.

But those of us who actually have project management experience, those of us who have contract work experience, those of us who have experience working to deadlines are quite clearly wrong because DC!!! He streams, you know!? The game is free you know?!!11!

We bring this up because at the rate DC is going the game will never be finished and he will have extracted millions of dollars for an abandoned game. Contentment breeds laziness. DC has become lazy.

 

[2xjj]

I wouldn't have a job if the world worked that way.

If an enterprise doesn't possess the flexibility, workforce, methodology, or time to complete a process as part of a project, do you know what they do? They hire contractors. I contract for a living. I come in, do a thing, and leave when it's finished. Rinse and repeat, that's my role.

The fact that this update is taking upwards of ~100% longer than the original estimate should be proof enough that he's drowning and from a project management perspective there's either a breakdown in planning or productivity that needs to be addressed.

Both would be fixed by hiring on competent temporary hands.

I would understand if Cookie was in the same position as indie devs who largely have to finance their own projects OOP before they earn their big payout, but he's pulling in ~60k/mo off Patreon alone.

There is no logical argument to be made for why he refuses to hire on additional help when it's clearly needed.

I know this place is pretty much a cult and this entire post will be slandered and misrepresented but I still felt this needs to be said and I would say most of the popular VNs have a similar issue.

Man this forum is just full of experts in game development project management

 

[j4yj4m]

@lolgotem:
DC was in the middle management in the animation business before he started this project and he wanted out of that. So it's pretty much clear that he wants to draw his own game with a small team and doesn't want to replicate the whole management job he did before in his own project again.

So in short, he'll draw basically at the speed he always did and the team will be tailored towards that speed. That also means that the speed will be the same, no matter whether he earns 30 or 80k per month. The last real funding goal was set at 25k per month and everything else is "for fun"...

The game is free, so people aren't forced to give a cent to play, while DC on the other hands gains the freedom to work how he likes. I stopped giving money to him a while ago, too, but I don't understand why people want him to change his way of working.

Is he overpaid? Almost certainly. Does that mean anything? Not really.

 

[2xjj]

I don’t get what so hard to understand the updates take a months to come out because of the art. DC won’t hire another until he can copy his art style with out him micromanage them because he hates doing that. Also if you are not a patron why do care how it for the update to come out.

 

[papasmurf]

60+k i would milk it 2 honestly

 

[papasmurf]

anybody wanna make a game i have a great story arc?

hmu


i like to see 60 k a month 2 lol

 

[2xjj]

How do you milk something given away for free.

 

[Omnikuken]

Empty debate going around in circles for years. Nothing new and nothing will change. Aside another thread purge, have fun

 

[Oregano696]

4 buttfucking years, guys. Everyone and their mother should be well acquainted with DC's work flow at this point. We get it, you want this game done at the speed of sound, but DC has his own reasons to make the game at his own pace. Maybe because of his own experience with animation, maybe because he actually wants to milk his patrons, but who cares? The point is, complaining isn't gonna make the updates come faster, so move on already. Let the people who actually want to talk about the game in peace.

 

[j4yj4m]

I mean, I'm already looking forward to this thread here once more people realize that there's actually going to be a "pure" tech/widescreen update between 20.8 and Rhonda. Not that I'd really agree with it from a marketing point of view, but as long as enough people go along with it I won't complain about the increase in quality.

 

[GeneGodHand]

man there's 25 pages of people saying the word milking in this thread and i'm willing to bet only half of it is about Diane

that's the real tragedy if you ask me

 

[GeneGodHand]

Okay, but seriously, if you're upset others aren't taking your criticism to heart, I'm sorry! Speaking for myself, I don't take time out of my day to read the same stuff everyone else brings up every time a porn game gets popular on patreon. It's tiring and I'll probably just ignore whatever your post was.

I know it's a bit of a cop out, snobby answer, but I genuinely have better things to do. DC can stretch the updates out however long he wants; It's his game, I don't pay for it, he doesn't owe me jack. And frankly I just don't care enough to be bothered by how long he takes to draw a pair of boobies every week.

 

[cadwaladr]

How do you milk something given away for free.

Because the product isn't what's being sold. It's like asking why do Sony and Microsoft make money on selling consoles that cost more to manufacture than they're sold at. You're asking the wrong question.

DC isn't selling the game, he's selling the illusion of being part of the game, of having influence in its development. It's why the more patrons he has, the more they disrupt the development process, they more he gains because the demand for the service increases. You aren't going to bother buying influence on an unimportant project. The more patrons he has, the more "important" the project, the more the desirability to be part of that project, the more patrons. Rinse and repeat. He's also released sufficient to show track record which means patrons feel that they have influence on an important and secure project so they renew their subscriptions.

That's his business model and that's respectable, but let us not pretend he's selling a good, he's not; he's selling a service.

If you don't believe me, ask yourself why he's made the development decisions he's made, the need to rewrite, recode or rewrite aspects of the game, not in downtime while waiting on the art "bottleneck" but as part of each version's development process. Why does he redraw characters, the rigging system is not an adequate answer given his artistic abilities. Is it because suddenly he's a better artist? Well what about in five years time, is he going to be like Sisyphus? Continually improving so there comes a need to redo all artwork and by the time he's finished he's improved again etc. Always pushing that stone up the hill.

And that makes no sense if he's selling a product but makes perfect sense if he's selling the development of the product.

 

[srksrk 68]

Because the product isn't what's being sold. It's like asking why do Sony and Microsoft make money on selling consoles that cost more to manufacture than they're sold at. You're asking the wrong question.

DC isn't selling the game, he's selling the illusion of being part of the game, of having influence in its development. It's why the more patrons he has, the more they disrupt the development process, they more he gains because the demand for the service increases. You aren't going to bother buying influence on an unimportant project. The more patrons he has, the more "important" the project, the more the desirability to be part of that project, the more patrons. Rinse and repeat. He's also released sufficient to show track record which means patrons feel that they have influence on an important and secure project so they renew their subscriptions.

That's his business model and that's respectable, but let us not pretend he's selling a good, he's not; he's selling a service.

If you don't believe me, ask yourself why he's made the development decisions he's made, the need to rewrite, recode or rewrite aspects of the game, not in downtime while waiting on the art "bottleneck" but as part of each version's development process. Why does he redraw characters, the rigging system is not an adequate answer given his artistic abilities. Is it because suddenly he's a better artist? Well what about in five years time, is he going to be like Sisyphus? Continually improving so there comes a need to redo all artwork and by the time he's finished he's improved again etc. Always pushing that stone up the hill.

And that makes no sense if he's selling a product but makes perfect sense if he's selling the development of the product.

You, Sir, have understand nothing.

DC is not selling anything, neither a service nor a good. He earns a significant amount of money on Patreon because, apparently, enough people love what he gives away for free. He gave it away for free before he even thought of making this amount of money on patreon. Now he makes it. Is he now obliged to fulfill your feverish desires?

No, he isn't, and he doesn't.

Nough said.

 

[Omnikuken]

Need to rewrite : early builds were pure trash
Recode : DC and early coding blowed
Redraw : have you seen pre 0.10 art compared to now ?
Rig system : instead of drawing each girl every scene each time she changes emotion/angle/whatever > draw heads/busts/arms/body seperatly and jumble them together during "posing" step

You also don't pay for anything : you pledge to support DC. Patreon never was and never will be like Kickstarter : you're not paying for the game to be made in x months purely for you cause you paid the dev 20$ years in advance. Only thing you get out of pledging is Discord tier rewards and poll vote(s).

 

[PatreonTed]

4 buttfucking years, guys. Everyone and their mother should be well acquainted with DC's work flow at this point. We get it, you want this game done at the speed of sound, but DC has his own reasons to make the game at his own pace. Maybe because of his own experience with animation, maybe because he actually wants to milk his patrons, but who cares? The point is, complaining isn't gonna make the updates come faster, so move on already. Let the people who actually want to talk about the game in peace.

Long ago on stream he said that he hated the high pressure deadlines he had when working with Hollywood (or whomever else he was doing design work for). SS allows him to work at a pace (ie glacial) that he is comfortable with working. I've never considered it milking because he's more or less produced art at the same speed as when he started doing this full time.

 

[trumafioso]

I find it amusing that so many people are angry that OTHER people are supporting this game on Patreon. Do any of these people know what Patreon actually is? It is not a Kickstarter. It is not an Indiegogo. By signing up to Patreon, you are becoming a Patron of the arts. Being a Patron does not give you anything except the pleasure in knowing you supported this particular artist. You are paying to support the artist in whatever works catches his fancy. If DC decided to spend the next 6 months making a nude self portrait in the Summertime art style, that is his choice. And it is the Patrons choice to continue to support this artist in his endeavors. This is not about Game Development and Project Management as many seem to believe. It is about the passion of the artist for his work, and the passion of his Patrons.

 

[Omnikuken]

Wonder if DC actually put the game behind a paywall, like many devs do, if the butthurt would be more epic

 

[2xjj]

A bunch of bullshit

Again how to do you sell something that’s free. Not only that the reason for redrawing all the art according to DC is that all the ark work was terrible because he was not trying and can do much better.