- Aug 30, 2019
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Wait a fuckin minute...GT! You got me in the Main Thread you little shit! I'm dumb as hell...
- Thread starter WeirdWorld
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- Mar 17, 2019
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I tried to make a ranking recently too and if we take their actual power i agree but not totaly , Fairy and Valravn arent are their full power, they could be higher at their full power but it's purely speculation, but Rebis is definitly one of the weakest
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Also, if sword chosen can fight Bernardht, the gap between him and Eiseth is far too huge for her to be second strongest, i could see
1: sword chosen
2: Aglaecwiff
3:Eiseth
4:Rebis
5:Fairy
6:Valravn
and at their full power Fairy and Valravn be 4 and 5 and Rebis 6, but it's true that Deryl also have some doubts after speaking with mc about Rebis, so maybe not last but not higher than 4 for me .
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- Jul 13, 2021
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Haha, what's the matter, just post memes, spam about Baldurs Gate and talk shit about the moderators. That's why they deleted the posts in the first place, isn't it? They are professionals through and through.
Offtopic goes through a slow phase and the last update hit hard. I need to vent.
On to the rest:
1. Eisheth thinks that another is stronger than her. We assume she refers to the Swordbearer Chosen.
2. Valravn went from an annoying and noisy raven to the strongest monster of it's line.
3. Monsters aren't capable of evolving, they can only become tainted.
4. There are 2 ways for Humans to become monsters. Either they get turned into the infected, or they monsterfy as Superhumans and become Variants.
5. The Eye recognizes that Malik has reached it's "fifth". Huuuge precedent right here. How would the Eye know about the 5th evolutionary stages if the oldest Superhuman is less than a century old?
6. There is another race that may be capable of evolving, and that's the alt-humans.
7. Are Chosen apostlespawn by default or they are just random monsters that fit some criteria?
Now, why do I post random trivia about the game? Because understanding the nature of monsters and superhumans is critical to make sense out of what Chosen are, what Syla may be and what is the nature of Chosen anyway.
Apostles are assumed to be the originators of Monsterkind. What exactly does this mean?
1. Apostles are not monsters.
2. Arbiters are not monsters.
3. The Gods are probably not monsters unless somehow a Monster became so strong that it achieved god status (unlikely).
So how does this work?
a. Did Apostles carved monsters from nothing?
b. Did the start spraying various populations in the cosmos with their monster taint?
c. Did they turn a single individual and tasked him to turn the rest of the population?
Aglaecwif says that the oldest of the monsters still wait for the return of the Arbiters. This can only mean that the Arbiters were active and visible in the universe after the first Monsters were created. But why would Monsters bother with the Arbiters in the first place or even care if they return?
Yet if the oldest monsters know of the Arbiters, why would the Chosen have different opinions about genesis? Why would Eisheth think that the Outer Twins created everything, while the Rebis thinks that the 6 Arbiters were the first? And why Aglaecwif believes that the Outer Twins are the sane religion while she remarks that the Arbiters are unlikely to return?
This also means that the Chosen are not the oldest. Most of them don't "remember" the Arbiters. Rebis doesn't, Eisheth probably doesn't, Valravn certainly doesn't. Why are the chosen not the oldest? Is it a succession thing? The previous Chosen died so the Apostle had to pick another? Or they were never supposed to be the oldest anyway and they are descendants of the first monsters? Does this also mean that the Chosen are not necessarily Apostlespawns?
So trying to answer some questions:
1. Why would the Chosen have vast differences in power (according to Eisheth)?
We can't verify that being an older Monster naturally makes it more powerful. This is true for Superhumans up to a point, but Monsters don't seem to have this function. However, it's possible that Eisheth is not just a younger Monster, but the circumstances of her infection were different too.
For example, perhaps Eisheth was turned by the previous Chosen of Truth, or the other Chosen was born from Apostles, not turned by them.
So my current theory is that even among the Chosen there exist a huge power difference which relates to how the Chosen came to be. I think that not every chosen was an Apostle's child or spawn and the only thing they have in common is high purity.
High purity itself may be important, but it's not something that we can measure somehow. It also wouldn't explain some of the things we see in the monster reports.
2. Why would the Arbiter recognize that Malik's body has "surpassed it's fifth"?
This is a bit counterintuitive, but I'm trying to make as few assumptions as possible. The Eye is the being that connects with MC during his evolutions and supposedly gives him power. It's also capable of taking MC directly to the final stage of his evolution. So it obviously knows how this ecosystem works but we can't just assume it also knows about Superhuman genetics and mechanics.
This remark is important because it makes the Eye's knowledge explicit and tells us that the concept of the five evolutionary stages existed from the very beginning despite monsters being incapable of evolving. Of course it could be something that the Eye picked up while linked to MC, but this idea doesn't fit the scene very well, since the Eye talks about things that MC doesn't know about, and it has trouble accessing MC's memories.
So if the 5 evolutions existed back then, then it's possible that there are Superhumans as old as the oldest monsters who still remember the Arbiters. Now of course we know that Eisheth is older than the human race, so we need to find other beings to call Superhumans, and the game gives us an alternative. The Alt-Humans.
3. What is this human-mutation Ella talks about?
In deadend3, Ella says that MC has inherited both traits with a perfect amount of human mutation. What is this? It's a thing that is mentioned once in the whole game during a deadend. Yet it raises some questions.
Superhumans are to genetically diverse to mate. But why would two Superhumans turned from the same monster be incapable of mating? This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Yet if there exists such a thing called human mutation, which is different than the monster mutation, and these things reach some kind of stable balance inside the superhuman, then it could explain the mating conundrum even among genetically similar Superhumans.
4. What are the Alt-Humans anyway and why should we care?
We don't have too much info on them. We know about them thanks to shopkeep's items and it's certainly not exhaustive, but we know that they got their powers from the Monsters and used these powers to fight an invasion.
In fact we don't even know if they are capable of evolving, but for this exercise we should assume they do.
As for why should we care.. Syla.
- Syla is a human, but a bit more.
- MC's third "takes her back.."
- She doesn't know how to use a spoon but she knows of ancient realms.
Additionally, in shopkeep items' memories we can observe something peculiar. The alt-human factions were fundamentally different. One faction was of sea and mostly male, while the other faction was of air and mostly female. There is a plethora of oddities that could happen there.
Superhumans are very genetically diverse and can't mate. What if Superalt-humans are not? What if alt-humans are capable of evolving 5 times but their bodies don't improve the same way humans do?
a) Fundamendally different but still the game presents them as humans.
b) A mentioned difference between the monster trait and human mutation.
c) Confirmed to be ancient and living in a realm similar to deadend39, which in turn has some similarities with Syla's story.
5. So what's the point of this?
While it's too early to make a point, I'm trying to take a look into the far past, when the first monsters appeared and how they came to be.
During 0.96, WW introduced the alt-humans to us and while we don't know shit about them, they have the potential to be the answers to various things that don't make sense, like the Chosen power difference, the Chosen titles and history, The Arbiter knowing about the 5 evolutions despite the race being very young etc.
Syla's circumstances are exceptional. She seems to be a human, she has powers yet she can mate, she knows of ancient things yet she has trouble adjusting to human life.
If Syla was a monster, then the only solution that currently makes sense, would be for Memory to somehow alter her into a human as part of her "new task".
If Syla is an alt-human however, at this point anything it's possible.
So instead of going hard into the "Syla is a monster" angle, I think that "Syla is a alt-human" has higher potential and fits her dialogue better, and also that some of the monsters used to be alt-humans too or at least they descended from Variants that are monstefied Superalt-humans.
Edit: Now that I think about it, there is another one that has powers but some think he is a human. Lochan Deus. Both Valravn and the Eye got confused. Also the landscape of his dream..
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Just done with the recent update and I KNEW there was some dead flags DAMMIT IT ALL I hope she's fine and alive dammit
- Aug 1, 2020
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- Jul 13, 2021
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On the Chosen rankings, and assuming that they are all at their full power, this is my opinion:
Valravn has a bone to pick with Fairy. To be able to pick a bone with someone you need to have a chance to defeat them in the first place, otherwise you can't do shit.
When we meet fairy, it's mangled and stuck inside a probably human made container. The only creature that has shown any animosity towards Fairy is Valravn, so it's possible that it was him who mangled it.
1. Valravn >= Fairy
Valravn also has a bone to pick with Aglaecwif, but based on his reaction to her name, he seems scared of her. So either he is too much of a shy boi and Aglaecwif tried to tickle his cute little testicles, or he can't do shit against her.
So from Valravn's dialogue, we can assume that
2. Aglaecwif > Valravn
According to Deryl, The Rebis is a peaceful monster. Additionally we can observe that Superhumans of the 12th line are not very good in combat. They have a niche, but Deryl could only contest MC thanks to the monster body he made, and Devana was literally powerless against him. So I'm going to assume that without it's cunning and perhaps the power of it's body, the Rebis does not have strong powers for combat and it would have to fight through creating other monsters or some contraptions. These can only help him so much, because even if we assume that it's capable of creating a horde of S ranks, there exists a cutoff point where even S ranks are not enough to beat even one of the next level of monsters.
3. Rebis comes last.
Eisheth got destroyed by Bernhardt, and with her losing breath, she said that she thinks that someone has some chance. Based on the circumstances, the safest assumption is the Swordbearing Chosen.
Additionally she says that "only" this individual could do it, which means that she doesn't consider anyone else that much stronger than her. Taking this idea to the extremes:
4a. Eisheth >= Aglaecwif
4b. Swordbearer comes first
If Aglaecwif's power has a lot to do with birth, then it stands to reason that she isn't the best when it comes to direct combat, for a reason similar to the Rebis. No matter how many monsters you create, there is no precedent which proves that they can be stronger than you, even if she hopes that her son with MC will challenge the gods. I have talked about this and I have reason to believe that she talks out of her ass.
So based on these:
1. Swordbearer
2. Eisheth
3. Aglaecwif
4. Valravn
5. Fairy
6. Rebis
Valravn has a bone to pick with Fairy. To be able to pick a bone with someone you need to have a chance to defeat them in the first place, otherwise you can't do shit.
When we meet fairy, it's mangled and stuck inside a probably human made container. The only creature that has shown any animosity towards Fairy is Valravn, so it's possible that it was him who mangled it.
1. Valravn >= Fairy
Valravn also has a bone to pick with Aglaecwif, but based on his reaction to her name, he seems scared of her. So either he is too much of a shy boi and Aglaecwif tried to tickle his cute little testicles, or he can't do shit against her.
So from Valravn's dialogue, we can assume that
2. Aglaecwif > Valravn
According to Deryl, The Rebis is a peaceful monster. Additionally we can observe that Superhumans of the 12th line are not very good in combat. They have a niche, but Deryl could only contest MC thanks to the monster body he made, and Devana was literally powerless against him. So I'm going to assume that without it's cunning and perhaps the power of it's body, the Rebis does not have strong powers for combat and it would have to fight through creating other monsters or some contraptions. These can only help him so much, because even if we assume that it's capable of creating a horde of S ranks, there exists a cutoff point where even S ranks are not enough to beat even one of the next level of monsters.
3. Rebis comes last.
Eisheth got destroyed by Bernhardt, and with her losing breath, she said that she thinks that someone has some chance. Based on the circumstances, the safest assumption is the Swordbearing Chosen.
Additionally she says that "only" this individual could do it, which means that she doesn't consider anyone else that much stronger than her. Taking this idea to the extremes:
4a. Eisheth >= Aglaecwif
4b. Swordbearer comes first
If Aglaecwif's power has a lot to do with birth, then it stands to reason that she isn't the best when it comes to direct combat, for a reason similar to the Rebis. No matter how many monsters you create, there is no precedent which proves that they can be stronger than you, even if she hopes that her son with MC will challenge the gods. I have talked about this and I have reason to believe that she talks out of her ass.
So based on these:
1. Swordbearer
2. Eisheth
3. Aglaecwif
4. Valravn
5. Fairy
6. Rebis
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- Aug 16, 2023
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It isn't hard, and it is obvious.
I only disagreed with the claim it is insignificant.
- Aug 30, 2019
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I dunno if I would take Deryl's word about the Rebis being "weak" considering his lack of Monster knowledge at the time, I mean he JUST got into all that. If there's one thing I know about Ella, it's that she takes what she wants, pretty much when she wants. The fact that she didn't force the Rebis when we know how important she views and how irritated she gets about her little project, forcing the Rebis, one of the smartest entities on the planet is probably your best option, and she probably would have...if she could...which she didn't so what does that say about the Rebis?
And it's not a political thing either, I'm pretty sure they state that the Rebis avoids taking sides so it can focus on finding out what created it/its Origins, so I doubt anyone is going to bat for him if he gets attack by Ella and her alliances in the Monster Verse (Aglaecwif and co).
It really is just going off speculation though. But I'm prone to believe Deryl's 2nd instinct (hiding its true strength, doesn't have a need to flex it anyways) vs it just being the weakest of the bunch.
Edit: Though looking at this in Post, it does sound like GT is on to something. Though Eisheth could've been referring to an Apostle (God Slayer Dark Lord) vs referring to the Sword Chosen.
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- Aug 30, 2019
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I was always under the impression from the Dog that the Chosen are essentially just Monsters they pick to follow in the absence of their Lords (Apostles), NOT Chosen by them to have that Title (considering there's not even one for every Apostle).
They hold great power and therefore are respected, which we know is like how the Monster hierarchy works in damn near every interaction. Even among Superhumans strength prevails first and foremost, shit the whole game's theme and plot progression is centered around it.
As for why they aren't the Oldest Monsters around? Well it's like you said; the Monsters can't "Evolve" let alone grow their strength exponentially the way Superhumans do, so however they are either made or born they are basically stuck with unless they get "Tainted". Could be that these Chosen were just built different, regarding that purity you were mentioning.
The Oldest Monsters that still believe in the Arbiters could very well be just as weak as the day to day Monsters on Earth (being born that way), but were lucky enough to stay around and be some of the few old timers that "Saw the glory days!" so to speak. If you're this new hotshot (Chosen) with all of this power, and know of the Apostles who hold even greater power and are the new foundation of POWER in your species, you'd probably think these Oldest Monsters were bad shit insane too.
On a side note, I am curious about the Outer Twins. They are referred to as Gods and yet completely separate in reference to the Arbiters or Apostles; which leads me to believe they are...neither? If that is so, are they above them? All Monsters worship a power system when it comes down to it, so while I can understand Oldest Monsters believing what THEY saw as the ultimate power at the time (Arbiters) and how they branched off the Apostles we know as the ultimate power now; where do the Outer Twins fit in? Because it sounds like they have ALWAYS been a thing. Doesn't make sense does it? It can't be both can it? Either the Arbiters rained supreme or the Outer Twins did. Or perhaps I'm just not thinking hard enough to believe they could separately worship 2 things at once, but that doesn't really fit the MO of Monsters in my opinion. Even the Lord of Dark IS an Apostle, so it wouldn't be crazy for a large portion to still follow 1 Apostle instead of all of them, it's just preference but they still rain supreme.
Good questions good questions...
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- May 20, 2017
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To have ignored this game since its starting and to play it at it's current version feels like such a successful unknown investment. Keeping the sex scenes aside, the storyline of this is so fucking brilliant, I'm at the days after killing Klaus, its unbelievably great.
That evolution scene during the fight with Klaus, I knew it was coming but when it came, GODLY. This is so well written, I felt it during that evolution.
I don't know what lies ahead as per storyline but so far, this has been surreal. Easy top 10 game worthy stuff.
That evolution scene during the fight with Klaus, I knew it was coming but when it came, GODLY. This is so well written, I felt it during that evolution.
I don't know what lies ahead as per storyline but so far, this has been surreal. Easy top 10 game worthy stuff.
- Mar 17, 2019
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when we see Tanos an Deryl, they arent the fighting type either, Deryl said it himself (of course we dont know much for Tanos but he mention that his power is specialized. ).
Beeing the weakest chosen doesnt mean that he's weak or that Ella could force him to do anything by herself, and we dont know how she could trap Valravn in the first place, but we know that she want the hearts of pure and powerfull monster , but still didnt take Eiseth , Aglaecwiff, or the Rebis heart, meaning that they are too powerfull or they have other use appart from that. (eiseth help Tanos, Aglaecwiff it was her sons for an army of monster)
It's complicate to judge, and since Rebis is far more knowledgable, he's also more difficult to manipulate or trap, and if she try to manipulate him and fail, she also could lose his "help",even if he dont take side, he still there to guide his spawn in is research .
Aglaecwiff isnt that fond of Ella,("she's to much trouble,all i ever desired was to be left alone with my children...), even more so now because she lost a lot of children.
And Eiseth isnt specialy loyal to Ella either ,("she'll do what she wants') she like Tanos in her own way from what we get from her memories, and since Rebis and Tanos have at least one similar objective, no need to make an ennemy out of the Rebis by forcing is hand, and except Aglaecwiff and Eiseht, unlike HERO, SIN dont have enough power to force Rebis to do anything he doesnt want to and even if they could kill him with Aglaecwiff + Eiseth and take is heart (if we suppose that they agree to do so) they will lose him for every other use.
Maybe he's stronger than i think, only WW would know , just that i dont see him beeing that strong when is power isnt realy oriented fighting.^^
- Mar 17, 2019
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When Ella is explaining his power to the MC relatively early in the game she tells him that humans develop abilities that their monster parents don't have, such as being able to transform other things which is something neither the 3rd or 4th is capable of. She also states that during evolution superhumans can develop powers completely unrelated to their monster parent based on their own biology or psychology.
That's likely what she's referring to as the human mutation.
Also when you look at it Alice received the pure power of the Ether, yet she has no capacity to create portals like a Hexenringe or Nico, so each infected individual receives a different expression of potential powers that they would get from their progenitor.
Two superhumans created by the same parent could have completely different powers and result in them each being a unique species regardless of their shared ancestry.
Tbf, she can't do anything like that yet. I think she'll get a similar power once she evolves. The dream is probably a hint
The fact that she's searching for a wormhole in her dream is a good indication her psychology is looking for that power, so it's more likely that she'll express that ability with an evolution.
There is a out of game meta reason that she might not in that Weird World might not want her to copy Nico, so we'll have to see where the story goes.
- Jul 13, 2021
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I got a bit confused by this. The title of Chosen means that an Apostle chose this individual for some purpose.
Even if it wasn't clear in the previous update, Eisheth pretty much clears it up by calling herself the "Chosen of Truth".
Also I think it's a bit premature to think that there are only 6. Perhaps they have died and haven't yet been replaced, perhaps they were discarded like Syla was. Perhaps every Apostle has more than 1 Chosen. We can't really tell if the Memory Hound's knowledge is complete at this point.
My thinking is that the older the monster, the more likely that it's generationally close to the Apostles. Everything we know about monsters seem to suggest that the closer you are to the Apostle, the stronger you are.
If Apostles are the originators for monsterkind, then their first sons and daughters should have been at least as powerful as Valravn and Fairy who are confirmed to be 1st Gen monsters. Where did they go? Did they die? Did they leave?
From a macro perspective, what you say is probably true, but considering how exponentially powerful the stronger monsters are, there is a huge gap that needs to somehow be explained. Unlike Gods, monsters have a defined beginning that we can trace.
Tbh, I have no goddamn idea what the Outer Twins are.
This is everything I know on the matter:
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- Apr 23, 2021
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Pretty new here so i gotta ask but are there more of those bios around for other characters? That looks really cool and i haven't seen it ingame(missed it if it is) so i'd love to find more if there are any.
- Feb 22, 2019
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Yeah there are and it is a patreon reward, not in the game. Just use the search function on the top right, someone posted them a bit ago