CREATE YOUR AI CUM SLUT ON CANDY.AI TRY FOR FREE
x

Fanvor

Member
Jul 1, 2017
124
284
No, Gillibrand first needs to overcome the resistance from the level difference and at least match the same energy/power to even have a chance...
As I've said multiple times bow, tree man should have more or a similar amount of power, he was a s/h for 35 years, that's longer than Ella was alive, the power difference wouldn't be that huge since Ella is a fresh lvl 5.
So if he has healing powers or transmutation powers it would be easier, but if he doesn't have those the process could simply take ages...
Shouldn't matter since Ange doesn't have shapeshifting powers, her superpower is super milk, not breast enlargement.
Furthermore he needs to actively or passively be working on returning to his original form...
...IF his conscious/subconscious even makes an attempt. If he thinks he's a tree nothing happens....
That's the only point I'm willing to concede, given the Laurie example it might just be the case of needing to be conscious, though that doesn't answer how Ange did it since she has literally zero control over her power, it's still a clean enough answer.
 

vogelbeest

Engaged Member
Jan 9, 2021
2,008
2,866
As I've said multiple times bow, tree man should have more or a similar amount of power, he was a s/h for 35 years, that's longer than Ella was alive, the power difference wouldn't be that huge since Ella is a fresh lvl 5.
That was exactly the reason why he did not want to evolve again. Ella showed him where that reasoning was wrong.


Shouldn't matter since Ange doesn't have shapeshifting powers, her superpower is super milk, not breast enlargement.
Her superpower is both breast enlargement and healing/regenerating milk. Furthermore MC was new to using his skill and a level 2 changing a level 1 versus a level 5 changing a level 3 is beyond comparing....

Nyx burned Gillibrand down and resurrected him and he still was a tree... That should give an indication about what Ella did to him. Nyx has been level 5 for maybe 50 years longer then Ella, Nyx is a healer and yet she still could not change him back...
 
  • Like
Reactions: bloodaxis

Gtdead

Active Member
Jul 13, 2021
922
5,722
In a training scene Ella explains that that is not the case, you have to exert your power to maintain changes. Which either means that at lvl 5 that rule does not apply to her, that WW just forgot about it, or that she is still alive.
I'm aware of that piece of dialogue. However to me it seems that "maintaining" means "fixing" in this context. When MC talks about his transformations, the common theme is the energy expended when healing or while transforming.

I think the most important piece of dialogue that explains how this works is the following:

On Healing Factor
You "And finally my healing factor, an extension of my transforming ability."
You "My body wants to be in its natural state, the state I'm in now. Any injuries I sustain tend to mend themselves as my body shifts back into its default state."
You "Arguably the best part about this whole thing and the only reason I'm still alive. "
You "The only drawback I've noticed is that since my body wants to return me to its default form when I'm injured, if I'm using a full body transformation at the time of receiving my injury I lose it if I let my body heal itself."
You "I need to specifically direct the healing myself if I want to maintain my current transformation, which takes a lot more concentration and effort."
These few next quotes is everything I can find related to energy expenditure when the MC uses his ability:

On 3rd evolution's plate armor:
You "It's also more difficult to shapeshift with it on. Adding more material on top of my body just means I have to waste more time and power to alter it when I'm changing forms."
When reviewing his forms after Klaus fight:
You "Now for the transformation that made my zoo trip so successful. The wonderous fly!"
You "Excellent for travelling unnoticed. However, it is by far the most time consuming transformation I possess. Squeezing all that mass into that tiny body takes a lot of time, as does the reverse when I'm returning to normal."
You "Phew. And I think that's everything. What a workout, manifesting all those different transformations. Good stuff."
You "First... there's my tail."
You "My spine serves as the core for this one, it's exceptionally powerful. At least compared to my normal tentacles."
You "It also seems to act somewhat... autonomously, at least sometimes. I haven't really figured out how it works yet, I'll need some in depth practice with it."
You "But I can change its shape more easily than I can for my normal tentacles too."
scene handtransform2 with dissolve
You "Next, and sort of related. Metal."
You "I have enough power to create it at will now. Although... it still seems somewhat taxing."
You "It wasn't like this in the Klaus fight. I was able to make it so efficiently then, using barely any power. How?"
You "I was acting mostly on instinct at the time, but I can tell when I try to form it now. I can do it, but it's costing me more than it should be. Much more."
train44 dialogue
"Power swells at the base of my spine, flesh as well."
"I can feel each new vertebrae form as my spine grows, vertebrae not made of bone, but rather of steel."
"It costs precious little power for me to create, which is strange, as metal is ordinarily quite costly."
"And yet this tail, it requires barely any effort or concentration to create, almost like it's building itself."
train48 dialogue (this isn't as explicit as the others, but it still mentions that healing is the problem)
You "Although, I suppose I also have my giant form."
You "Easily the riskiest option. Growing that large would make me a huge target, alerting pretty much everyone in the vicinity to my location. My weight also increases more than my strength, so I'm slower, making me even easier to hit."
You "On top of that, the cost in power is high and would increase manifold with every injury I sustain. I don't have enough power to heal more than a couple bad wounds for a body that huge."
train51 dialogue
You "I've trained a lot over the past six months, since I got these powers. More than I ever did as a human."
You "So many transformations learned."
You "So many nights training to increase how much I can transform, how many tentacles I can make, how much flesh I can produce without exhausting myself."
As you can see, there is a distinct lack of talk about "maintaining" the transformation in a context other than regeneration.

So the MC has to "maintain" control of the healing factor during the transformation when he gets injured, otherwise he will return to his default state which leaves him vulnerable. This is also why he doesn't want to use big transformations. Because both avoiding damage and having to heal less flesh is way cheaper than losing a chunk of flesh and healing it.

The language is pretty consistent. Everytime he talks about maintaining during his training sessions, he talks about regenerating.

Even when he turns into liquid, all talk is about mental concentration, not power expenditure.

"My forearm melts, transforming into a dark, flowing, viscous material."
"I can still control it to an extent, stretching it out and whipping around, but...."
play sound "audio/splash.mp3"
show bmc noarm with hpunch
You "Argh, shit!!"
"I lose it. My control over the liquid breaking the moment I let my concentration slip, my entire forearm dropping to the floor with a splash, quickly evaporating into nothing."
You "Fuck! There goes my arm."
show bmc n with dissolve
"It grows back of course, at the cost of a good amount of power. But I'm suddenly very aware of why I've been so instinctively wary of this ability."
You "I could lose my entire body if I'm not careful... It could all disappear in an instant. The amount of focus I need..."
You "And then, what happens if I turn my entire body to liquid, my brain included? How can I focus without a brain? How did I do it against Klaus?"
You "I was weaker then than I am now but... the focus I had was something else, almost like a trance."
At this point I just take for granded that all energy expenditure happens either when transforming or when regenerating and there is no such thing as energy expenditure to maintain the form's state and that's what Ella was taking about too.
 

bloodaxis

Member
Sep 1, 2017
227
402
Ellas/MCs transformations of other people likely work the same way Jakes powers do, it's a one and done deal and if the opposite isn't strong enough to break it naturally on their own/knowing how to break it, it'll be exceedingly hard to break it. See Alexis not even noticing that she's being brainwashed by someone much much weaker than herself, and even taking a small amount of damage upon breaking the brainwashing. Why then couldn't Ella enforce a change on someone much lower than her that's really god damn hard to break unless you have a lot of power to spare/know how. Angelinas power just passively increases her breastsize so obviously it would also passively just work on undoing any breast transformations.
 

Fanvor

Member
Jul 1, 2017
124
284
I'm aware of that piece of dialogue. However to me it seems that "maintaining" means "fixing" in this context. When MC talks about his transformations, the common theme is the energy expended when healing or while transforming.

I think the most important piece of dialogue that explains how this works is the following:

On Healing Factor


These few next quotes is everything I can find related to energy expenditure when the MC uses his ability:

On 3rd evolution's plate armor:


When reviewing his forms after Klaus fight:




train44 dialogue


train48 dialogue (this isn't as explicit as the others, but it still mentions that healing is the problem)


train51 dialogue


As you can see, there is a distinct lack of talk about "maintaining" the transformation in a context other than regeneration.

So the MC has to "maintain" control of the healing factor during the transformation when he gets injured, otherwise he will return to his default state which leaves him vulnerable. This is also why he doesn't want to use big transformations. Because both avoiding damage and having to heal less flesh is way cheaper than losing a chunk of flesh and healing it.

The language is pretty consistent. Everytime he talks about maintaining during his training sessions, he talks about regenerating.

Even when he turns into liquid, all talk is about mental concentration, not power expenditure.



At this point I just take for granded that all energy expenditure happens either when transforming or when regenerating and there is no such thing as energy expenditure to maintain the form's state and that's what Ella was taking about too.
You are absolutely correct, there is a distinct lack of talk about "maintaining" the transformation in a context other than regeneration. Except for that one scene I posted which fully contradicts what you are saying.
 

Gtdead

Active Member
Jul 13, 2021
922
5,722
You are absolutely correct, there is a distinct lack of talk about "maintaining" the transformation in a context other than regeneration. Except for that one scene I posted which fully contradicts what you are saying.
It doesn't "fully contradict". Ella says that power is used for creation and maintenance. MC accepts it, but for all intents and purposes, MC uses the word "maintenance" to describe "regeneration". Having more power by consuming extreme amounts of meat allows the superhuman to continue regenerating for longer periods, which is the main limiting factor in combat as shown in every scene.

These 2 phrases:
1) Regenerating while transformed.
2) Maintaining the transformation.

seem to be exactly the same.

Perhaps it's different for Ella? Doubtful but I'm willing to entertain the idea that it works differently for her. What we know for sure is that Ella expends energy when forcing her form to not change which is both logical and expected.

Ellas/MCs transformations of other people likely work the same way Jakes powers do, it's a one and done deal and if the opposite isn't strong enough to break it naturally on their own/knowing how to break it, it'll be exceedingly hard to break it. See Alexis not even noticing that she's being brainwashed by someone much much weaker than herself, and even taking a small amount of damage upon breaking the brainwashing. Why then couldn't Ella enforce a change on someone much lower than her that's really god damn hard to break unless you have a lot of power to spare/know how. Angelinas power just passively increases her breastsize so obviously it would also passively just work on undoing any breast transformations.
I was writing about Ella's transmutation having parallels with Jake's commands when you posted that. I too think that observing Jake is the best way to draw conclusions about how it works.
 

Fanvor

Member
Jul 1, 2017
124
284
Ellas/MCs transformations of other people likely work the same way Jakes powers do, it's a one and done deal and if the opposite isn't strong enough to break it naturally on their own/knowing how to break it, it'll be exceedingly hard to break it. See Alexis not even noticing that she's being brainwashed by someone much much weaker than herself, and even taking a small amount of damage upon breaking the brainwashing. Why then couldn't Ella enforce a change on someone much lower than her that's really god damn hard to break unless you have a lot of power to spare/know how. Angelinas power just passively increases her breastsize so obviously it would also passively just work on undoing any breast transformations.
First, Jake has a different power from a different set of apostles, using him as a reference to explain a different s/h is a bad idea.
Second, could you people stop shitting on tree man? He is not weak by any means of the word. Him losing to Ella is not a matter of her having more power, it's a matter of her unlocking a strong ability through the evolution trance or research.
 

bloodaxis

Member
Sep 1, 2017
227
402
You are absolutely correct, there is a distinct lack of talk about "maintaining" the transformation in a context other than regeneration. Except for that one scene I posted which fully contradicts what you are saying.
In that scene iirc she was specifically talking about transforming yourself however, and seeing as how they are shapeshifters that do seem to have an innate "true" form it stands to reason that said true form is something they're actively transforming towards unless they make the conscious effort to stay in another form. Transforming someone else is highly likely very different, and difficulty of breaking said transformations most likely depends on what your power actually is to begin with. Someone curses you to burn forever, if your powers include fire you probably wouldn't have a hard time breaking that, but if you're a meathead whose powers only include superhuman strength and someone mindfucks you, it would be harder. Of course a lot of that is extrapolated speculation based on what we've seen but I don't see any reason to think that Ella would need to be feeding Gillibrand power constantly for him to be stuck in that form, at least for a while. Then there's the whole "ella has molecular control over her powers" thing, what's to say she didn't rewire his dna to be a tree altogether, and that's why it's so hard to change back and will take time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EndlessNights

Fanvor

Member
Jul 1, 2017
124
284
It doesn't "fully contradict". Ella says that power is used for creation and maintenance. MC accepts it, but for all intents and purposes, MC uses the word "maintenance" to describe "regeneration". Having more power by consuming extreme amounts of meat allows the superhuman to continue regenerating for longer periods, which is the main limiting factor in combat as shown in every scene.

These 2 phrases:
1) Regenerating while transformed.
2) Maintaining the transformation.

seem to be exactly the same.

Perhaps it's different for Ella? Doubtful but I'm willing to entertain the idea that it works differently for her. What we know for sure is that Ella expends energy when forcing her form to not change which is both logical and expected.
Ella says that power is used for creation and maintenance, MC accepts it, but you don't. Why are we having this discussion?
 

bloodaxis

Member
Sep 1, 2017
227
402
First, Jake has a different power from a different set of apostles, using him as a reference to explain a different s/h is a bad idea.
Second, could you people stop shitting on tree man? He is not weak by any means of the word. Him losing to Ella is not a matter of her having more power, it's a matter of her unlocking a strong ability through the evolution trance or research.
Doesn't really matter if his powers are different or not, it falls in line with the other type of "curse" powers we know about, including Charlies/Zaras, they brand you with something that you, first of all, need to know is there and then you need to break it. If Gillibrand lost his arm, he wouldn't regrow it because his powers don't include the power to change his shape, why then would he just automatically break through a transformation forced upon him by someone who does have said power to change the shape of flesh. Just like every other "power" enforced upon someone else it's not an automatic guarantee that you will ever be able to break out of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PerpetuallyAmiss

Gtdead

Active Member
Jul 13, 2021
922
5,722
Ella says that power is used for creation and maintenance, MC accepts it, but you don't. Why are we having this discussion?
It's you who insists on taking a single instance of the word "maintenance" and attributing it a specific meaning when everywhere else in the game it's used differently.

In the same spirit, you are absolutely correct, except for the dialogue snippets from half the training sessions that directly contradict your interpretation.
 

Fanvor

Member
Jul 1, 2017
124
284
Doesn't really matter if his powers are different or not, it falls in line with the other type of "curse" powers we know about, including Charlies/Zaras, they brand you with something that you, first of all, need to know is there and then you need to break it. If Gillibrand lost his arm, he wouldn't regrow it because his powers don't include the power to change his shape, why then would he just automatically break through a transformation forced upon him by someone who does have said power to change the shape of flesh. Just like every other "power" enforced upon someone else it's not an automatic guarantee that you will ever be able to break out of it.
If that is true, and I understand what you are saying correctly, Alexis breaking Jakes mind control bs would be impossible.
 

bloodaxis

Member
Sep 1, 2017
227
402
If that is true, and I understand what you are saying correctly, Alexis breaking Jakes mind control bs would be impossible.
No, it required her knowing about it/consciously choosing to try to break it, and then exercising her power enough such that breaking it injured her. That is not in opposition to what I have been saying, in fact that enforces what I have been saying.

Edit: if Gillibrand is so discombobulated that his brain is barely even functioning, the first part of breaking the supernatural change imposed on him is simply not there, and as such he hasn't even gotten to the part where he forcibly breaks it. And a tree he remains.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EndlessNights

Fanvor

Member
Jul 1, 2017
124
284
I was


It's you who insists on taking a single instance of the word "maintenance" and attributing it a specific meaning when everywhere else in the game it's used differently.

In the same spirit, you are absolutely correct, except for the dialogue snippets from half the training sessions that directly contradict your interpretation.
For you to be right we have to forget about that scene existing, for me to be right no such action is needed. What I've said, or rather quoted from the game, doesn't contradict any of the snippets you posted.
 

Fanvor

Member
Jul 1, 2017
124
284
No, it required her knowing about it/consciously choosing to try to break it, and then exercising her power enough such that breaking it injured her. That is not in opposition to what I have been saying, in fact that enforces what I have been saying.
Then this conversation is pointless, we already established that you probably need to be conscious to resist the shapeshifting placed on you.
 

Fanvor

Member
Jul 1, 2017
124
284
Then this conversation is pointless, we already established that you probably need to be conscious to resist the shapeshifting placed on you.
Which is kinda bs btw, since it means you can do all sorts of shit to people while they sleep and they have no way to defend themselves but whatever.
 

Gtdead

Active Member
Jul 13, 2021
922
5,722
For you to be right we have to forget about that scene existing, for me to be right no such action is needed. What I've said, or rather quoted from the game, doesn't contradict any of the snippets you posted.
Definition of maintenance:
1) The process of preserving a condition or situation or the state of being preserved.
2) The process of keeping something in good condition.

First definition helps your argument, second definition helps mine. I've proved beyond any reasonable doubt that MC thinks he expends power when is either altering his form or when repairing it.

The exact Ella quote you provided works perfectly fine with my interpretation. There is no fallacy, there is no logical leap. The only reason I'm explaining this is because it can be interpreted like you do, but there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I could be wrong of course, but unless we find a single instance where MC spends energy to sustain an uninjured transformation, there is absolutely no reason why your interpretation is the right one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PerpetuallyAmiss

bloodaxis

Member
Sep 1, 2017
227
402
I could be wrong of course, but unless we find a single instance where MC spends energy to sustain an uninjured transformation, there is absolutely no reason why your interpretation is the right one.
Exactly, if he did have to spend passive energy to maintain his form, what is his true form? A pile of goo? And why wasn't he a pile of goo the first time he woke up instead of his newer improved form? His true self that needs no energy to sustain beyond the normal food a person has to eat, at least until level 4, is very clearly the form he usually takes, only when transforming away from that form has it been implied that he needs a tiny amount of concentration and power/energy.
 

bloodaxis

Member
Sep 1, 2017
227
402
Then this conversation is pointless, we already established that you probably need to be conscious to resist the shapeshifting placed on you.
It's probably how it works yes, unless you have a power that subconsciously works toward a goal in opposition to whatever shit was forced on you in which case you'd likely break it eventually, or gradually return to your form regardless of you being conscious/consciously knowing about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PerpetuallyAmiss

vogelbeest

Engaged Member
Jan 9, 2021
2,008
2,866
First, Jake has a different power from a different set of apostles, using him as a reference to explain a different s/h is a bad idea.
Second, could you people stop shitting on tree man? He is not weak by any means of the word. Him losing to Ella is not a matter of her having more power, it's a matter of her unlocking a strong ability through the evolution trance or research.
It doesn't really matter what apostle is you parent if we are talking about how powers work. The Apostles just have different skillsets that a spawn can receive, but even that depends on the physical and mental state of the spawn...

Nobody is shitting on Gillibrand. He's a third evolution superhuman with impressive powerlevels, so much he even has more raw power then some 5th evolution superhumans. He is afraid of monsterfication and justifies not evolving by that fact.
Ella can see his strengths and weaknesses and simply uses logic to beat him. It's not like Nico is doing much better right?
Ella at level 4 still outsmarted 2 (fresh but still) 5th evolution superhumans... And even Malik more or less gets toyed with...
Above all it's a matter of understanding your opponents powers and applying the best possible tactics against them...
 
4.80 star(s) 384 Votes