BlackDahliaStudios

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Doing my regular check in on this project. I'm happy to see it coming along and am eager to see where it will be a year from now considering you seems to be into the whole "normal person gets corrupted into enjoying exotic creatures" kink that never gets enough attention.
I appreciate the support! I think that kink will develop more as I get further into the higher level spells. I've been spending most of my time recently working on the game engine. However, the next update will be a narrative update tying up loose ends in the current Archmage release.
 
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BlackDahliaStudios

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Game Developer
Nov 18, 2020
329
511
Here is a game design question for players: Should the game be driven by the narrative or the exploration? In other words, do players prefer a Telltale approach (focus on narrative) or a Dark Souls approach (focus on exploration). I'm definitely going have some of both, but I would like to pulse check on how players feel about it. It may change my thinking about locking narrative branches behind exploration requirements or locking exploration areas behind narrative requirements. Personally, I prefer the exploration focus as a player.
 

pilgrim2003

Well-Known Member
Dec 30, 2018
1,275
1,087
Here is a game design question for players: Should the game be driven by the narrative or the exploration? In other words, do players prefer a Telltale approach (focus on narrative) or a Dark Souls approach (focus on exploration). I'm definitely going have some of both, but I would like to pulse check on how players feel about it. It may change my thinking about locking narrative branches behind exploration requirements or locking exploration areas behind narrative requirements. Personally, I prefer the exploration focus as a player.
Exploration is always more interesting and actually it gives to the player more sense of "game", however it means usually that coding and other technical issues are more complicated. Perhaps offering some exploration elements time to time without running into many bugs would be enough. Nevertheless, whatever approach you take, please, keep in mind there should be enough of sexy chicks and guys, otherwise your game is doomed :)
 

BlackDahliaStudios

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Nov 18, 2020
329
511
Exploration is always more interesting and actually it gives to the player more sense of "game", however it means usually that coding and other technical issues are more complicated. Perhaps offering some exploration elements time to time without running into many bugs would be enough. Nevertheless, whatever approach you take, please, keep in mind there should be enough of sexy chicks and guys, otherwise your game is doomed :)
This was a thorough and ominous response...
 
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BlackDahliaStudios

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Nov 18, 2020
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Oh, no, just a friendly suggestion. And be sure, we will love your game and you only more and more :)
I would like to push the limits of my technical ability and give the player more control. My concern is that the more branching there is in the story, the more shallow and spread out it becomes. Realistically, I can only write so many novels in a single lifetime. This is the main bottleneck for most CYOA games. Bandersnatch even had the same problem. So, basically I don't want to go out of my way to make things harder on myself if it's just making the game less enjoyable for the player. Devious World is a perfect example of this problem to the limit. Which is sad, because I like that game.
 
Mar 27, 2018
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I would like to push the limits of my technical ability and give the player more control. My concern is that the more branching there is in the story, the more shallow and spread out it becomes. Realistically, I can only write so many novels in a single lifetime. This is the main bottleneck for most CYOA games. Bandersnatch even had the same problem. So, basically I don't want to go out of my way to make things harder on myself if it's just making the game less enjoyable for the player. Devious World is a perfect example of this problem to the limit. Which is sad, because I like that game.
Yes, Kobold Adventure is probably an even better example of this issue. I think it's a fantastic game with great writing, but because it has a billion branches, all of them are unfinished and quite short.

I think a good solution is to allow branching, but then have the branches merge back together, and maybe allude to previous choices later in text (e.g. "Julie waves to you as she gets in the taxi" vs. "Julie glowers at you as she gets in the taxi", based on a previous branch), to let players feel like their choices mattered.

Another, even better (but more difficult) solution is sandbox-style gaming, where instead of explicit branching, content is locked behind stats. For example, maybe you need a Sluttiness score of 10 to unlock a sex scene, but there are many different ways of gaining (and losing) Sluttiness in the game. However, this only works if there is enough content in the game to make it feel interesting and non-repetitive. Most games that try this fail at it, and end up just forcing the player into a repetitive grind. Degrees of Lewdity is a an example of a game that does this very well.
 

Rosen King

Engaged Member
May 29, 2019
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My concern is that the more branching there is in the story, the more shallow and spread out it becomes.
Wait, are you talking about branching story routes as in mutually exclusive content, or just a wider variety of options of what content to pursue? Because I definitely wouldn't describe branching story routes as "exploration". Exploration is something you can go in any direction to do at any time. Locking out a story option because you took another option is something I'd call a narrative focus, except it's detrimental to the narrative itself for the reasons you described.

That being said, I haven't played this game yet (still waiting for the merger) so I don't know what I think would be best for this one in particular, and I don't think I'll be following it purely for the narrative like I would for some other games...
 
Jan 25, 2020
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I appreciate the support! I think that kink will develop more as I get further into the higher level spells. I've been spending most of my time recently working on the game engine. However, the next update will be a narrative update tying up loose ends in the current Archmage release.
I hope when that time comes you give the revulsion to lustful enjoyment it's space to happen instead of going from "Oh my gosh I would never fuck that to fuck this feels amazing even if it's fucked up to, I now only get excited to this" in the span of one sentence. Got to let that mind break marinate lmao. I have faith in you though, so no pressure just take your time and have fun with this whole thing.
 
Jan 25, 2020
75
97
Here is a game design question for players: Should the game be driven by the narrative or the exploration? In other words, do players prefer a Telltale approach (focus on narrative) or a Dark Souls approach (focus on exploration). I'm definitely going have some of both, but I would like to pulse check on how players feel about it. It may change my thinking about locking narrative branches behind exploration requirements or locking exploration areas behind narrative requirements. Personally, I prefer the exploration focus as a player.
Personally, I prefer a narrative focus with a few distinct paths to take. For instance, a corruption vs pure paths where the content along those paths may sometimes overlap but otherwise have bespoke content that plays into the themes of the path. I do think that having three paths gives the most options for a player and a writer since if you get tired writing one type of content you can switch to another type. And on the player end it means that if someone wants to be a degenerate monster/creature fucker they can have one path, someone who wants to maybe dabble in more extreme things but mostly stay in the vanilla wheelhouse can have their path and someone who want purely fantasy level encounters with some only slightly less than human gals/guys can have their path.

At the end of the day make the game you want to make. You will find your crowd as long as the product is quality.
 
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BlackDahliaStudios

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Yes, Kobold Adventure is probably an even better example of this issue. I think it's a fantastic game with great writing, but because it has a billion branches, all of them are unfinished and quite short.

I think a good solution is to allow branching, but then have the branches merge back together, and maybe allude to previous choices later in text (e.g. "Julie waves to you as she gets in the taxi" vs. "Julie glowers at you as she gets in the taxi", based on a previous branch), to let players feel like their choices mattered.

Another, even better (but more difficult) solution is sandbox-style gaming, where instead of explicit branching, content is locked behind stats. For example, maybe you need a Sluttiness score of 10 to unlock a sex scene, but there are many different ways of gaining (and losing) Sluttiness in the game. However, this only works if there is enough content in the game to make it feel interesting and non-repetitive. Most games that try this fail at it, and end up just forcing the player into a repetitive grind. Degrees of Lewdity is a an example of a game that does this very well.
Personally, I prefer a narrative focus with a few distinct paths to take. For instance, a corruption vs pure paths where the content along those paths may sometimes overlap but otherwise have bespoke content that plays into the themes of the path. I do think that having three paths gives the most options for a player and a writer since if you get tired writing one type of content you can switch to another type. And on the player end it means that if someone wants to be a degenerate monster/creature fucker they can have one path, someone who wants to maybe dabble in more extreme things but mostly stay in the vanilla wheelhouse can have their path and someone who want purely fantasy level encounters with some only slightly less than human gals/guys can have their path.

At the end of the day make the game you want to make. You will find your crowd as long as the product is quality.
This is very helpful feedback. I think the best approach is to combine these suggestions: have primary branching, with a few exclusive narratives, while also having sandbox elements. I hadn't thought about it in exactly these terms, but currently The Archmage is designed the first way and The Monastery is designed the second way. So, I have accidentally gotten a feel for what it is like to work on both.

Wait, are you talking about branching story routes as in mutually exclusive content, or just a wider variety of options of what content to pursue? Because I definitely wouldn't describe branching story routes as "exploration". Exploration is something you can go in any direction to do at any time. Locking out a story option because you took another option is something I'd call a narrative focus, except it's detrimental to the narrative itself for the reasons you described.

That being said, I haven't played this game yet (still waiting for the merger) so I don't know what I think would be best for this one in particular, and I don't think I'll be following it purely for the narrative like I would for some other games...
I suppose I think of exploration as giving the player freedom instead of locking them into a certain path or sequence. So I could still consider it exploration with a branching narrative if there is enough freedom. But it would need to have those sandbox elements, or it won't feel like exploration.
 

soccerstud516

New Member
Feb 6, 2022
8
7
Here is a game design question for players: Should the game be driven by the narrative or the exploration? In other words, do players prefer a Telltale approach (focus on narrative) or a Dark Souls approach (focus on exploration). I'm definitely going have some of both, but I would like to pulse check on how players feel about it. It may change my thinking about locking narrative branches behind exploration requirements or locking exploration areas behind narrative requirements. Personally, I prefer the exploration focus as a player.
TLDR: TELLTALE ME SEMPI.


To add some thoughts to a few other responses to this. Having choices affect variations of the same major story moments is my go to game choice. A consistent narrative flow that I can modify each play through based on my choices to be a good or bad guy. The idea of "stats" always intrigued me but it is rarely done well. Archmage already does a great job of this with the choices of power source and schools of magic.

A pure sandbox/exploration model has its place and is valuable but with what you have already set up here it should be supplemental to the story. Possibly having a set narative schedule where certain major story events happen on certain timelines I.E. ( day 1, day 15, day 23, day 45) and all the other days world build and provide a chance to change parts of the major story events would be a good use. I do recognize this would require you to write a good number of variations on your story and that may be time prohibitive.
 
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BlackDahliaStudios

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TLDR: TELLTALE ME SEMPI.


To add some thoughts to a few other responses to this. Having choices affect variations of the same major story moments is my go to game choice. A consistent narrative flow that I can modify each play through based on my choices to be a good or bad guy. The idea of "stats" always intrigued me but it is rarely done well. Archmage already does a great job of this with the choices of power source and schools of magic.

A pure sandbox/exploration model has its place and is valuable but with what you have already set up here it should be supplemental to the story. Possibly having a set narative schedule where certain major story events happen on certain timelines I.E. ( day 1, day 15, day 23, day 45) and all the other days world build and provide a chance to change parts of the major story events would be a good use. I do recognize this would require you to write a good number of variations on your story and that may be time prohibitive.
I'm going to end up writing many variations of the story and it's going to take a while. I've just accepted that fact going into this project. I believe that I could have a finished game within a year or two. Finished meaning that there are
a couple endings in the game. But I figure that in order to actually incorporate all of the different variations that I'm planning will take at least a decade. It will basically be like I'm releasing DLC that are the content equivalent of sequels.

I'm fine with it because it means I don't have to redesign the entire game each time, I can just write the story and plug it into the existing game. The scary part for me is that the project could go on infinitely, so I figured I will stop working on it when I run out of good ideas. Or allow the players to write the story at that point.
 
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soccerstud516

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Feb 6, 2022
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I'm fine with it because it means I don't have to redesign the entire game each time, I can just write the story and plug it into the existing game. The scary part for me is that the project could go on infinitely, so I figured I will stop working on it when I run out of good ideas. Or allow the players to write the story at that point.

Allowing players to write some story later on in the life cycle is a great idea! Reminds me of the extended universe of star wars books.
 

BlackDahliaStudios

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Nov 18, 2020
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I hope when that time comes you give the revulsion to lustful enjoyment it's space to happen instead of going from "Oh my gosh I would never fuck that to fuck this feels amazing even if it's fucked up to, I now only get excited to this" in the span of one sentence. Got to let that mind break marinate lmao. I have faith in you though, so no pressure just take your time and have fun with this whole thing.
I'm actually just realizing that I'm doing this work in the next update. God help me... Time to mentally prepare myself for the degeneracy. I need to stock up on some booze for whenever I begin the writing.
 
Oct 31, 2017
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There is a shocking amount I can talk about here considering how limited the scope of the game is at this point, but there are some things that really stuck out to me here.

I want to note a few things about the main path (that is, you open the box). There are three things I really like about what's so far available here, the first being, somewhat surprisingly, the actual lack of sexual content at the moment. I can't help but feel that many games that include sexual content put too heavy of a focus on it, so much so that it seriously subtracts from the rest of the experience, while games that don't include it often act as though it simply doesn't exist. The world is a big place, and there's a lot going on, so I appreciate that while it's clear from some of Margerie's behaviour that the characters are concious of it, they also don't act like horndogs who can't recognize that now isn't the time.

Secondly, the magic system as explained so far seems reasonably well-expanded on. I personally love when these kinds of things are built in a way that the reader can understand and follow, rather than it simply being said "It's magic" or throwing a lot of terms from out of nowhere to make it seem impressive. As is, it seems to be at a point where it can be made sense of to the degree currently necessary, though I am left with several questions: If the Blind have Essence, but not Vitality, could they cast essence-based spells? Who are "Dark Mages" and how did they remove the Vitality of the Blind, is this related to the downfall of all other known magical institutions? What exactly does an Affinity do, since a mage doesn't seem limited to spells of their Affinity, is it just a matter of acclimation? Do spells of your Affinity grow stronger? I expect Water and Earth Affinities are the easiest to acclimate to, if they're used for Apprentices, but what are the other Affinities and how are they defined?

Lastly, I think the characters actually have feeling to them. Obviously Rudy and Austin don't have any real role at the moment, but even they feel as though they have defined personalities and could realistically be there. Azrael seems like a fleshed-out character. I especially love how the MC has inner-dialogue relating to stress about the unfamiliar situation, it makes them feel more real rather than a bland self-insert (though, I do think it would be nice to be able to name the character, it eventually starts to feel odd only being referred to as "you").

Of course, there are some low points as well. Starting from the top, everything about the box is abrupt. To some degree this makes sense, having a sudden revelation thrust upon you is the spark for the story, but then you're just teleported there. The MC has no thoughts about family, friends, or their former lives, in fact, they're not overly concerned about anything at all it seems. The MC is actually incredibly inconsistent, their inner-dialogue often makes sense and conveys their nervousness about the situation, but if they talk to Margerie they declare that they're powerful, when at this point they have no idea what's going on, or if they talk to Dahlia they swear to become a noble mage, when at this point they have no idea what that means. There's such a divide in these behaviours that the boisterous dialogue seems more like it would come from Margerie. On that note, Margerie also has some odd behaviour. She's clearly a proud individual from a prestigious family (though she seems to have little actual knowledge based on her dialogue with Azrael, which is odd if her family is that prestigious) and is described in the relationships menu as an airhead. Neither of these really sticks however, as aside from her lack of knowledge she doesn't behave in an airheaded nature, and her immediate segue into seducing you after you cast a fairly straightforward fireball/repair spell doesn't fall in-line with her proud nature (that alone would hardly be enough for her to accept you). There are also a lot details that aren't explained to the MC, for example, Azrael explains that the red Affinity is due to corruption, but doesn't comment on the blue. The MC actually has a thought about this, but doesn't ask, and I have to wonder why? This is immediately after you can trust Azrael not to kill you, so it feels weird that you wouldn't trust him enough to ask a pretty obvious question. Azrael also casts a brand on the MC to monitor them in relation to not speaking of their corrupted nature, but this brand seems to behave improperly as it reacts any time magic is involved (there's even a line where Azrael notices this), seems like a pretty substantial hazard, but you can't ask about that?

As a whole, It feels as though things are just being constantly swept along with little thought when the MC should be bursting with questions.

In relation to what's available if you ignore the box, I think it's a very good example of what the sexual content of the game could include, though I think it's pretty silly to have there.

With all of that said, I'm very interested to see where this goes in the future. I know as of now this is more a conceptual example than anything else, so I apologize if I came across as unduly harsh, but since there's stuff here I like I wanted to provide my full feedbdack.
 

BlackDahliaStudios

Member
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Nov 18, 2020
329
511
There is a shocking amount I can talk about here considering how limited the scope of the game is at this point, but there are some things that really stuck out to me here.

I want to note a few things about the main path (that is, you open the box). There are three things I really like about what's so far available here, the first being, somewhat surprisingly, the actual lack of sexual content at the moment. I can't help but feel that many games that include sexual content put too heavy of a focus on it, so much so that it seriously subtracts from the rest of the experience, while games that don't include it often act as though it simply doesn't exist. The world is a big place, and there's a lot going on, so I appreciate that while it's clear from some of Margerie's behaviour that the characters are concious of it, they also don't act like horndogs who can't recognize that now isn't the time.

Secondly, the magic system as explained so far seems reasonably well-expanded on. I personally love when these kinds of things are built in a way that the reader can understand and follow, rather than it simply being said "It's magic" or throwing a lot of terms from out of nowhere to make it seem impressive. As is, it seems to be at a point where it can be made sense of to the degree currently necessary, though I am left with several questions: If the Blind have Essence, but not Vitality, could they cast essence-based spells? Who are "Dark Mages" and how did they remove the Vitality of the Blind, is this related to the downfall of all other known magical institutions? What exactly does an Affinity do, since a mage doesn't seem limited to spells of their Affinity, is it just a matter of acclimation? Do spells of your Affinity grow stronger? I expect Water and Earth Affinities are the easiest to acclimate to, if they're used for Apprentices, but what are the other Affinities and how are they defined?

Lastly, I think the characters actually have feeling to them. Obviously Rudy and Austin don't have any real role at the moment, but even they feel as though they have defined personalities and could realistically be there. Azrael seems like a fleshed-out character. I especially love how the MC has inner-dialogue relating to stress about the unfamiliar situation, it makes them feel more real rather than a bland self-insert (though, I do think it would be nice to be able to name the character, it eventually starts to feel odd only being referred to as "you").

Of course, there are some low points as well. Starting from the top, everything about the box is abrupt. To some degree this makes sense, having a sudden revelation thrust upon you is the spark for the story, but then you're just teleported there. The MC has no thoughts about family, friends, or their former lives, in fact, they're not overly concerned about anything at all it seems. The MC is actually incredibly inconsistent, their inner-dialogue often makes sense and conveys their nervousness about the situation, but if they talk to Margerie they declare that they're powerful, when at this point they have no idea what's going on, or if they talk to Dahlia they swear to become a noble mage, when at this point they have no idea what that means. There's such a divide in these behaviours that the boisterous dialogue seems more like it would come from Margerie. On that note, Margerie also has some odd behaviour. She's clearly a proud individual from a prestigious family (though she seems to have little actual knowledge based on her dialogue with Azrael, which is odd if her family is that prestigious) and is described in the relationships menu as an airhead. Neither of these really sticks however, as aside from her lack of knowledge she doesn't behave in an airheaded nature, and her immediate segue into seducing you after you cast a fairly straightforward fireball/repair spell doesn't fall in-line with her proud nature (that alone would hardly be enough for her to accept you). There are also a lot details that aren't explained to the MC, for example, Azrael explains that the red Affinity is due to corruption, but doesn't comment on the blue. The MC actually has a thought about this, but doesn't ask, and I have to wonder why? This is immediately after you can trust Azrael not to kill you, so it feels weird that you wouldn't trust him enough to ask a pretty obvious question. Azrael also casts a brand on the MC to monitor them in relation to not speaking of their corrupted nature, but this brand seems to behave improperly as it reacts any time magic is involved (there's even a line where Azrael notices this), seems like a pretty substantial hazard, but you can't ask about that?

As a whole, It feels as though things are just being constantly swept along with little thought when the MC should be bursting with questions.

In relation to what's available if you ignore the box, I think it's a very good example of what the sexual content of the game could include, though I think it's pretty silly to have there.

With all of that said, I'm very interested to see where this goes in the future. I know as of now this is more a conceptual example than anything else, so I apologize if I came across as unduly harsh, but since there's stuff here I like I wanted to provide my full feedbdack.
Thank you for the honest feedback! I truly appreciate it and it's hard to come by. Feedback helps with the motivation to continue working.

I want to make the sexual content realistic and fit the context of the world. I have a lot of work left to do on this. Honestly, I wrote some sex scenes on a whim without context and inserted them into the game after the fact, so it makes sense they don't fit well at this point. The current update I'm working on will improve on this to some degree.

I'm glad you could follow the magic system, because I thought the info dump would be overwhelming. That's a relief. Your questions about magic are good questions. I will say that each affinity corresponds to a unique marking on the head. For the rest of the answers, you will have to wait for future updates. ;)

You're right, I should allow you to name the MC. I will now do this in an upcoming update.

I will be working on the family relationships in the future. They are hollow right now because I have not worked on them.

I've spent most of my effort thus far planning the future plot, building the world, and programming future game mechanics. This resulted in rough and unpolished dialogue. I plan to give this more attention. It's helpful to hear your perspective as the player since it's hard to put myself in those shoes. The concept I was going for with having different personality traits for the different interactions was the idea that your choices would shape your personality. It is inconsistent and I need to execute on that better.

I didn't allow certain questions because some things should not yet be known. I will update the game to allow you to ask these questions, but you might not like the answers. :devilish:

It will take a while until I get this project out of the conceptual phase (Beta Version). The scope is large. I have spent most of my recent time working on , which displays the future game mechanics. Once it is finished, I will have more time to dedicate to dialogue, consistency, plot building, etc.

I hope you stick with the project! :giggle:
 
Oct 31, 2017
40
285
I want to make the sexual content realistic and fit the context of the world. I have a lot of work left to do on this. Honestly, I wrote some sex scenes on a whim without context and inserted them into the game after the fact, so it makes sense they don't fit well at this point. The current update I'm working on will improve on this to some degree.
I absolutely understand and appreciate that from both a gameplay and narrative perspective. I meant that the current sexual content is silly because it's obviously not meant to fit, and I like that it's clearly seperated from the actual content of the game for that reason. It doesn't really hurt to have there for the time being, and I think that as far as they go they're well-written.
I'm glad you could follow the magic system, because I thought the info dump would be overwhelming. That's a relief. Your questions about magic are good questions. I will say that each affinity corresponds to a unique marking on the head. For the rest of the answers, you will have to wait for future updates. ;)
The info dump is somewhat overwhelming, but I think it should be given the circumstances it's given in. Since I personally love magic systems, I was more than willing to read over the text multiple times to sort it out in my head. I imagine you plan on putting details on the magic terms within the "Encyclopedia" tab in the future to be easily referenced, so with that I don't think you need to worry too much about this level of information being too much for the player. The overwhelming nature could actually provide opportunities for additional optional dialogue or interactions with the other Apprentices (i.e., asking Dahlia/Austin for details on the Water affinity and Margerie/Rudy for details on Earth affinity) if you wanted to take it that direction.
The concept I was going for with having different personality traits for the different interactions was the idea that your choices would shape your personality. It is inconsistent and I need to execute on that better.
I can tell, and based on the current build I think you're more than capable of doing so. The issue with the cases in particular I pointed out is that it's such an abrupt mood swing that doesn't fit in the context of the situation. I think it's something that can be more attributed to you wetting your feet than any real failure.
I didn't allow certain questions because some things should not yet be known. I will update the game to allow you to ask these questions, but you might not like the answers. :devilish:
It would be fine if Azrael deflects the questions or refuses to answer in a similar fashion to how he did with the other apprentices in regards to the color of the orb during the Vitality test, he may not even know entirely himself, but it feels quite artificial to just not have it come up at all.
 
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