VN Ren'Py The East Block [v0.8.3] [Bobbyboy Productions]

[Joshy92]

More divergent paths is always good. It makes decisions feel more real.

 

[HikBenAkk]

I have not yet given my opinion about last update. I read many posts here. ^^

I do not understand all the hate about AI in this game... The content basis, AI uses, is Kathryn's model, not lazy AI slopes. It is indeed far from perfection and some in the last updates are not good at all (ugly). That said, who can dare to say that Kathryn masturbation in Motel, for example, is bad animation result despite being made by AI ?
If AI helps the dev to get such results (the good ones) in less time, I can only say to him, go for it (as a subscriber for a long time now, I said it to him)... Even though, I repeat, the dev STILL HAS to improve about AI (and project management ^^).
I am a software dev myself for more than 10 years and I do NOT use AI myself in my job (I may rather say not yet ? Who knows?) because I don't yet see it as indispensable for my own dev tasks and I forbid juniors in my team to use AI to perform for them tasks they are yet not proficient to perform by themselves.

About the drama : NTR/cheating VS NTS/sharing content for Kathryn...
WHY ?? I actually cannot understand, I like female corruption (I love both NTR AND NTS content)
I have waited for a long time Kathryn to have cheating content in the main timeline (the present) and I do not see why building cheating content for her can only means the end of the sharing content. Both can be made and still make sense together story wise : Luke already has cheating opportunities and Karthryn can also grow cheating temptations while still having fun by being shared by Luke...
As always, make such content optional is mandatory for players that do not like it.

To explain what I mean with "main timeline" above : Kathryn already had cheating content (the flashback in the trailer when she was on her first date with Luke). Tbh, I did not like it when it was released because it was in the past and not building her corruption in the present, not because it was cheating...
Now I like this scene a lot, because it can be a good start to "explain" and build up her cheating kink and scenes to come.

My fav scene in this last update was Rebecca's with Santini (I like her to be involved and starting to grow her own depravity with this despicable businessman and his friends/minions ^^). I prefer this scene over Kathryn's in motel because it was Pat there ;-P ^^
If it were some random guy, I would have love it... ^^

 

[TonyMurray]

I have not yet given my opinion about last update. I read many posts here. ^^

I do not understand all the hate about AI in this game... The content basis, AI uses, is Kathryn's model, not lazy AI slopes. It is indeed far from perfection and some in the last updates are not good at all (ugly). That said, who can dare to say that Kathryn masturbation in Motel, for example, is bad animation result despite being made by AI ?
If AI helps the dev to get such results (the good ones) in less time, I can only say to him, go for it (as a subscriber for a long time now, I said it to him)... Even though, I repeat, the dev STILL HAS to improve about AI (and project management ^^).
I am a software dev myself for more than 10 years and I do NOT use AI myself in my job (I may rather say not yet ? Who knows?) because I don't yet see it as indispensable for my own dev tasks and I forbid juniors in my team to use AI to perform for them tasks they are yet not proficient to perform by themselves.

About the drama : NTR/cheating VS NTS/sharing content for Kathryn...
WHY ?? I actually cannot understand, I like female corruption (I love both NTR AND NTS content)
I have waited for a long time Kathryn to have cheating content in the main timeline (the present) and I do not see why building cheating content for her can only means the end of the sharing content. Both can be made and still make sense together story wise : Luke already has cheating opportunities and Karthryn can also grow cheating temptations while still having fun by being shared by Luke...
As always, make such content optional is mandatory for players that do not like it.

To explain what I mean with "main timeline" above : Kathryn already had cheating content (the flashback in the trailer when she was on her first date with Luke). Tbh, I did not like it when it was released because it was in the past and not building her corruption in the present, not because it was cheating...
Now I like this scene a lot, because it can be a good start to "explain" and build up her cheating kink and scenes to come.

My fav scene in this last update was Rebecca's with Santini (I like her to be involved and starting to grow her own depravity with this despicable businessman and his friends/minions ^^). I prefer this scene over Kathryn's in motel because it was Pat there ;-P ^^
If it were some random guy, I would have love it... ^^

It's kind of funny, but every time there's a post like this saying that someone doesn't understand why there are complaints, it's abundantly clear that they're really saying they don't understand what the actual complaints are. Taking the time to read the complaints would give that understanding, but it looks like that always gets skipped over in favour of going in defence mode (or attack mode, in some instances).

For instance, the AI argument where you ask how can anyone complain about a specific animation that I'm pretty sure no one has complained about. The complaints are about the AI animations that look awful, which are often accompanied with specific examples that detail why they look awful, and about there being far too many of them in the first place.

For the NTR, like most others starting out with this "not understanding the complaints" stance, you focus on NTR being optional, or on Luke already cheating, or on Kathryn having done stuff before. When people actually complain about the Pat NTR scene, it's not about the cheating itself (except for Joshy's valid complaint regarding dev promises), but about the convoluted and forced build-up (with the argument and staying with Pat) being out of character both for Kathryn and for the Kathryn-Luke relationship up to that point.

For the NTS versus NTR content part, it's about this being an NTS game (and only now moving into NTR with this last update) but having no NTS in this update, despite plenty of opportunity being there. I'm fine with that because I'll play the game both ways, but for some people, who only like NTS and not NTR, it represents a lack of content on their paths, and potentially suggests a shift in the direction the game is going. We don't yet know how much of a shift it will be, but I can definitely understand the concern from those players.

 

[Joshy92]

It's kind of funny, but every time there's a post like this saying that someone doesn't understand why there are complaints, it's abundantly clear that they're really saying they don't understand what the actual complaints are. Taking the time to read the complaints would give that understanding, but it looks like that always gets skipped over in favour of going in defence mode (or attack mode, in some instances).

For instance, the AI argument where you ask how can anyone complain about a specific animation that I'm pretty sure no one has complained about. The complaints are about the AI animations that look awful, which are often accompanied with specific examples that detail why they look awful, and about there being far too many of them in the first place.

For the NTR, like most others starting out with this "not understanding the complaints" stance, you focus on NTR being optional, or on Luke already cheating, or on Kathryn having done stuff before. When people actually complain about the Pat NTR scene, it's not about the cheating itself (except for Joshy's valid complaint regarding dev promises), but about the convoluted and forced build-up (with the argument and staying with Pat) being out of character both for Kathryn and for the Kathryn-Luke relationship up to that point.

For the NTS versus NTR content part, it's about this being an NTS game (and only now moving into NTR with this last update) but having no NTS in this update, despite plenty of opportunity being there. I'm fine with that because I'll play the game both ways, but for some people, who only like NTS and not NTR, it represents a lack of content on their paths, and potentially suggests a shift in the direction the game is going. We don't yet know how much of a shift it will be, but I can definitely understand the concern from those players.

I played this update in like ten minutes with all the sex I skipped

 

[HikBenAkk]

Hi TonyMurray,

It's kind of funny, but every time there's a post like this saying that someone doesn't understand why there are complaints, it's abundantly clear that they're really saying they don't understand what the actual complaints are. Taking the time to read the complaints would give that understanding, but it looks like that always gets skipped over in favour of going in defence mode (or attack mode, in some instances).

For instance, the AI argument where you ask how can anyone complain about a specific animation that I'm pretty sure no one has complained about. The complaints are about the AI animations that look awful, which are often accompanied with specific examples that detail why they look awful, and about there being far too many of them in the first place.

Nope, you did not get what I said and asked for, I was not clear enough.
The example I gave was NOT aimed to challenge "AI haters" to dare to say whether this animation is good or bad despite being made by AI. I am neither for nor against AI, nor am I taking a defensive or offensive stance : just wondering in a pragmatic point of view.
I just wanted to say that if AI can help devs provide such good results as this one is (Kathryn's masturbating scene) in less time, why complain about AI and put pressure to devs to not try use it ?
Yes, some results still look awful and the dev may, at the beginning (when he is still learning to use AI) I hope, need time to become efficient. The results in fact are smoothly animated despite some of them (or still many ?) to remain in the uncanny valley.
If the dev thinks he can get better at using AI for animations, I just cannot get why people are not supportive despite some bad results.
I also guess that this time the dev had to make a tough decision : take more time to get better results and release later (knowing some may want to riot about that ^^) or release sooner BUT with some bad results.
The bad results people complain for are not questionnable : they exist. I just do not understand why reactions are so extreme.

For the NTR, like most others starting out with this "not understanding the complaints" stance, you focus on NTR being optional, or on Luke already cheating, or on Kathryn having done stuff before. When people actually complain about the Pat NTR scene, it's not about the cheating itself (except for Joshy's valid complaint regarding dev promises), but about the convoluted and forced build-up (with the argument and staying with Pat) being out of character both for Kathryn and for the Kathryn-Luke relationship up to that point.

Convoluted ? Not my feeling... I cannot say more...
Forced build-up ? I disagree.
Given the fact players have chosen to have Luke cheat on Kathryn.
I said it here, sooner or later Luke is meant to face Kathryn's reaction (disappointment ? anger ?) for having cheated on her if it was the implicit rules between them to always ask before heving sex with someone else. Kathryn seems to not dislike Pat as Luke does... Ok... Where is the problem ? What feels off there ?
I was surprised as well but it never felt unrealistic : there are people IRL that can have unexpected reactions we never thought them capable of as well in given situations... All I thought here is : the dev must explain in detail to us in due time why Luke dislikes his father that way... I am curious... Kathryn seems to think it is no big deal because she tried to fix their relationship... How much does she actually know about their conflict ? Again, I am curious to know more about it...
Her to stay after her argument with Luke just means to me she does not dislike Pat (as a person from her wannabe "family-in-law" and putting her sexual kink aside) and thinks Luke overreacted in an unfair way towards Pat and her.
I do not see anything that feels out of character here (in the way you said it) : maybe there are things I did not get ?
That said, I have not played all routes and in the one I played, nothing was weird.

For the NTS versus NTR content part, it's about this being an NTS game (and only now moving into NTR with this last update) but having no NTS in this update, despite plenty of opportunity being there. I'm fine with that because I'll play the game both ways, but for some people, who only like NTS and not NTR, it represents a lack of content on their paths, and potentially suggests a shift in the direction the game is going. We don't yet know how much of a shift it will be, but I can definitely understand the concern from those players.

On this matter , I will NEVER agree ! ^^!
Sorry to raise my tone, it is not against you specifically, but such take always "triggers" me. ^^!
"this being an NTS game" you said... Who here decided that ?? Who feels legit to ? ^^!
And even if the dev said it at the beginning, as long as the NTR content made afterwards is optional, there is nothing to complain.
The qualifier "optional" is important, contrary to what you seem to imply. ^^!
The dev can change his mind and explore MORE than planned first while making his game... There is nothing to hold against him about that. Am I wrong ?

On the other hand, the other direction would have been a problem : when devs promise their games to have content in a given tag and then decide to NOT provide it afterwards... Because some subscribers expecting such content, liking the way the game evolve, can legit feel fooled and deceived.

The lack of NTS content as you said, given the game's design, is only temporary (I hope !!), no big deal because the dev said he will make more updates than he planned first : NTS worshipers, I belong to, will have their content as well...
That said...
The dev to want to fix the number of updates in advance (12, 14 or anything like that) is something I cannot accept from him. i will say it to him : ALL OPENED routes MUST FINALLY have equal focus from him to reach a proper end in order to not feel rushed and that can only mean to be concerned about developing them properly BEFORE wanting the game to have a number of updates defined in advance...
I read the dev's last post and I will reply to him in the way I said it here.

Best Regards.

 

[Joshy92]

Hi TonyMurray,



Nope, you did not get what I said and asked for, I was not clear enough.
The example I gave was NOT aimed to challenge "AI haters" to dare to say whether this animation is good or bad despite being made by AI. I am neither for nor against AI, nor am I taking a defensive or offensive stance : just wondering in a pragmatic point of view.
I just wanted to say that if AI can help devs provide such good results as this one is (Kathryn's masturbating scene) in less time, why complain about AI and put pressure to devs to not try use it ?
Yes, some results still look awful and the dev may, at the beginning (when he is still learning to use AI) I hope, need time to become efficient. The results in fact are smoothly animated despite some of them (or still many ?) to remain in the uncanny valley.
If the dev thinks he can get better at using AI for animations, I just cannot get why people are not supportive despite some bad results.
I also guess that this time the dev had to make a tough decision : take more time to get better results and release later (knowing some may want to riot about that ^^) or release sooner BUT with some bad results.
The bad results people complain for are not questionnable : they exist. I just do not understand why reactions are so extreme.


Convoluted ? Not my feeling... I cannot say more...
Forced build-up ? I disagree.
Given the fact players have chosen to have Luke cheat on Kathryn.
I said it here, sooner or later Luke is meant to face Kathryn's reaction (disappointment ? anger ?) for having cheated on her if it was the implicit rules between them to always ask before heving sex with someone else. Kathryn seems to not dislike Pat as Luke does... Ok... Where is the problem ? What feels off there ?
I was surprised as well but it never felt unrealistic : there are people IRL that can have unexpected reactions we never thought them capable of as well in given situations... All I thought here is : the dev must explain in detail to us in due time why Luke dislikes his father that way... I am curious... Kathryn seems to think it is no big deal because she tried to fix their relationship... How much does she actually know about their conflict ? Again, I am curious to know more about it...
Her to stay after her argument with Luke just means to me she does not dislike Pat (as a person from her wannabe "family-in-law" and putting her sexual kink aside) and thinks Luke overreacted in an unfair way towards Pat and her.
I do not see anything that feels out of character here (in the way you said it) : maybe there are things I did not get ?
That said, I have not played all routes and in the one I played, nothing was weird.


On this matter , I will NEVER agree ! ^^!
Sorry to raise my tone, it is not against you specifically, but such take always "triggers" me. ^^!
"this being an NTS game" you said... Who here decided that ?? Who feels legit to ? ^^!
And even if the dev said it at the beginning, as long as the NTR content made afterwards is optional, there is nothing to complain.
The qualifier "optional" is important, contrary to what you seem to imply. ^^!
The dev can change his mind and explore MORE than planned first while making his game... There is nothing to hold against him about that. Am I wrong ?

On the other hand, the other direction would have been a problem : when devs promise their games to have content in a given tag and then decide to NOT provide it afterwards... Because some subscribers expecting such content, liking the way the game evolve, can legit feel fooled and deceived.

The lack of NTS content as you said, given the game's design, is only temporary (I hope !!), no big deal because the dev said he will make more updates than he planned first : NTS worshipers, I belong to, will have their content as well...
That said...
The dev to want to fix the number of updates in advance (12, 14 or anything like that) is something I cannot accept from him. i will say it to him : ALL OPENED routes MUST FINALLY have equal focus from him to reach a proper end in order to not feel rushed and that can only mean to be concerned about developing them properly BEFORE wanting the game to have a number of updates defined in advance...
I read the dev's last post and I will reply to him in the way I said it here.

Best Regards.

Guess what, I never cheated on Kathryn, but the argument still happened.

Don't assume everyone would cheat on her.

 

[HikBenAkk]

Guess what, I never cheated on Kathryn, but the argument still happened.

Don't assume everyone would cheat on her.

Hi Joshy92,
I never assumed that... I said it, I did not played all routes.

I do not know what is said in Luke VS Kathryn argument when Luke never cheated on Kathryn : I did not played it that way.
BUT if she speaks about Clementine and her mother if Luke never did anything with them, it is a bug in the story that MUST be fixed by the dev.

A game story must be cohesive.

Best regards.

 

[Joshy92]

Hi Joshy92,
I never assumed that... I said it, I did not played all routes.

I do not know what is said in Luke VS Kathryn argument when Luke never cheated on Kathryn : I did not played it that way.
BUT if she speaks about Clementine and her mother if Luke never did anything with them, it is a bug in the story that MUST be fixed by the dev.

Best regards.

Nah, the argument is about Pat if you don't cheat or touch the other women. Either way, Luke is rude to Kathryn.

 

[HikBenAkk]

Nah, the argument is about Pat if you don't cheat or touch the other women.

I do not understand what you mean here...

Either way, Luke is rude to Kathryn.

He is... And I was surprised by that... he better apologizes to Kathryn later...
Btw : That made me think she deserves the right to cheat on Luke ^^

That makes me curious about the reason Luke dislikes Pat that much.
Luke overreacted towards her more because of Pat than being mad at Kathryn.

 

[dexterousgecko]

That makes me curious about the reason Luke dislikes Pat that much.

Pat: immediately hits on his son's girlfriend

Yep, wonder why Luke doesn't like him. Seems like a stand up guy.

 

[Joshy92]

I do not understand what you mean here...


He is... And I was surprised by that... he better apologizes to Kathryn later...
Btw : That made me think she deserves the right to cheat on Luke ^^

That makes me curious about the reason Luke dislikes Pat that much.

I mean if Luke doesn't cheat on Kathryn when they are at the restaurant they argue about Pat flirting with Kathryn instead.

 

[HikBenAkk]

Pat: immediately hits on his son's girlfriend

Yep, wonder why Luke doesn't like him. Seems like a stand up guy.

Hi dexterousgecko,

Other guys, even strangers, did and he did not react that extreme : depends on how you play. There must be something more

Best Regards.

 

[TonyMurray]

The example I gave was NOT aimed to challenge "AI haters" to dare to say whether this animation is good or bad despite being made by AI. I am neither for nor against AI, nor am I taking a defensive or offensive stance : just wondering in a pragmatic point of view.
I just wanted to say that if AI can help devs provide such good results as this one is (Kathryn's masturbating scene) in less time, why complain about AI and put pressure to devs to not try use it ?
Yes, some results still look awful and the dev may, at the beginning (when he is still learning to use AI) I hope, need time to become efficient. The results in fact are smoothly animated despite some of them (or still many ?) to remain in the uncanny valley.
If the dev thinks he can get better at using AI for animations, I just cannot get why people are not supportive despite some bad results.
I also guess that this time the dev had to make a tough decision : take more time to get better results and release later (knowing some may want to riot about that ^^) or release sooner BUT with some bad results.
The bad results people complain for are not questionnable : they exist. I just do not understand why reactions are so extreme.

You used that one scene as an example and asked who could dare to say it wasn't good, when no one had done so. Despite conceding that some of the AI animations were not good, you appear to be suggesting that we can't complain about these bad animations because there are also some good ones (reading it back again, that's almost exactly what you're saying in the bit I quoted above). First of all, it's all subjective - both the good and the bad, and second, why should having some good animations mean that we can't point out the bad ones and voice our opinions that they lower the overall quality of the game?

Convoluted ? Not my feeling... I cannot say more...
Forced build-up ? I disagree.
Given the fact players have chosen to have Luke cheat on Kathryn.
I said it here, sooner or later Luke is meant to face Kathryn's reaction (disappointment ? anger ?) for having cheated on her if it was the implicit rules between them to always ask before heving sex with someone else. Kathryn seems to not dislike Pat as Luke does... Ok... Where is the problem ? What feels off there ?
I was surprised as well but it never felt unrealistic : there are people IRL that can have unexpected reactions we never thought them capable of as well in given situations... All I thought here is : the dev must explain in detail to us in due time why Luke dislikes his father that way... I am curious... Kathryn seems to think it is no big deal because she tried to fix their relationship... How much does she actually know about their conflict ? Again, I am curious to know more about it...
Her to stay after her argument with Luke just means to me she does not dislike Pat (as a person from her wannabe "family-in-law" and putting her sexual kink aside) and thinks Luke overreacted in an unfair way towards Pat and her.
I do not see anything that feels out of character here (in the way you said it) : maybe there are things I did not get ?
That said, I have not played all routes and in the one I played, nothing was weird.

Your last line tells everything here. You haven't played a path where Luke did not cheat, for example. Those who have played such a path are right in calling the setup (starting with the argument) convoluted. Remember, as Joshy points out in his response, not everyone has had Luke cheating. Not everyone is playing only a cheating path. It's been discussed in detail over the weeks since the update dropped, and the general consensus among those who don't only play a cheating path, is that it made little sense, and was a shift in character. It's generally seen as a scene the dev put in to create drama and lead to the (optional) cheating scene, but there are other ways this could easily have been done without going back on what's been built in the previous six or seven releases.

On this matter , I will NEVER agree ! ^^!
Sorry to raise my tone, it is not against you specifically, but such take always "triggers" me. ^^!
"this being an NTS game" you said... Who here decided that ?? Who feels legit to ? ^^!
And even if the dev said it at the beginning, as long as the NTR content made afterwards is optional, there is nothing to complain.
The qualifier "optional" is important, contrary to what you seem to imply. ^^!
The dev can change his mind and explore MORE than planned first while making his game... There is nothing to hold against him about that. Am I wrong ?

On the other hand, the other direction would have been a problem : when devs promise their games to have content in a given tag and then decide to NOT provide it afterwards... Because some subscribers expecting such content, liking the way the game evolve, can legit feel fooled and deceived.

The lack of NTS content as you said, given the game's design, is only temporary (I hope !!), no big deal because the dev said he will make more updates than he planned first : NTS worshipers, I belong to, will have their content as well...
That said...

Poorly worded by me, because it's one-directional (looking at Kathryn and not also looking at Luke) - what I meant though, is that in terms of Kathryn, it was all about sharing, it was an NTS game up until the 0.8 update. Dev also said that there would be no cheating on Kathryn's side because it "isn't in her character" to do that. I get that things change, and I'm fine with that. The complaint being made in this respect though is that all of a sudden, in this update, there was no physical NTS (despite plenty of opportunity for it, and teasers suggesting it would be there), and only physical NTR content (adding "physical" to mean in person, and so discounting the webcam scene).

It's always the argument, but this is never about "but the NTR is optional and so you can't complain", it's about the way that it's brought about and the way here that it supplanted the NTS. Given how it shifted in this update, I can see why people would be worried for future updates. If there was a mix of NTS and NTR in this one, then presumably those complaints wouldn't exist, because it would show that both are intended going forwards. As it stands, it could currently suggest that NTS content will be phased out in favour of NTR content.

To clarify my position on this last bit, I am not one who has that complaint personally. I am only saying that I can understand the position of those who do have that complaint.

 

[HikBenAkk]

I mean if Luke doesn't cheat on Kathryn when they are at the restaurant they argue about Pat flirting with Kathryn instead.

Ok, and that does only mean Luke has a serious conflict (in his mind) with his father that Kathryn does not know. It can be what you says and it is not unrealistic Luke to overreact towards Kathryn the way he does.
His father drives Luke mad and he reacts in ways he can only regret afterwards ^^!

In your run, Luike better apologizes to Kathryn
In mine, she got her little revenge ^^

 

[HikBenAkk]

About poorly wording, I do it too despite my efforts ^^!
English is not my native language, french is... It is always a nightmare for me when what I think does not match for people what I write in english : un vrai cauchemar !! ^^!

You used that one scene as an example and asked who could dare to say it wasn't good, when no one had done so. Despite conceding that some of the AI animations were not good, you appear to be suggesting that we can't complain about these bad animations because there are also some good ones (reading it back again, that's almost exactly what you're saying in the bit I quoted above). First of all, it's all subjective - both the good and the bad, and second, why should having some good animations mean that we can't point out the bad ones and voice our opinions that they lower the overall quality of the game?

Nope... Again I was not understood, it is quite the opposite... Poorly worded by me again ? ^^!
In fact, read again my post, I said my aim was NOT to challenge people with my example... ^^!
My take was never to say people are not legit to complain about bad animations. I spoke about AI... From reading, I came to the conclusion people are against the dev's decision to use AI BECAUSE OF the bad animations.
I highlighted one of the good animations made (Kathryn masturbation in motel) to show the game can become better (better animations) when the dev finally will be able to master AI enough rather than sticking on non-AI animations. Hence I said he deserves cheering (being supportive) rather than complain about the use of AI.

Your last line tells everything here. You haven't played a path where Luke did not cheat, for example. Those who have played such a path are right in calling the setup (starting with the argument) convoluted. Remember, as Joshy points out in his response, not everyone has had Luke cheating. Not everyone is playing only a cheating path. It's been discussed in detail over the weeks since the update dropped, and the general consensus among those who don't only play a cheating path, is that it made little sense, and was a shift in character. It's generally seen as a scene the dev put in to create drama and lead to the (optional) cheating scene, but there are other ways this could easily have been done without going back on what's been built in the previous six or seven releases.

Here there is no debate, just misunderstandings...
About Luke and Kathryn argument, I only played Luke cheating on Kathryn. I replied to Joshy. if this argument is also about cheating although no cheating event were triggered, it is a bug in the story because they would speak about things that have not happened. If it is just about Pat, there is no problem as well : Luke dislikes Pat a lot for an unknown reason (to us) and overreacted towards Kathryn... it happens IRL too... Imo, it is too soon to say whether it is a shift in characters or not, we need to know more about the conflict between Luke and Pat and what Kathryn knows about it. Kathryn, that tried to fix things, got an unfair argument... Poor girl... Life is unfair ^^!
That to be set to lead to the cheating scene is dev decision, some may like it, other not :
i am among those who liked it because, in my play, Luke to be unfair towards Kathryn triggered in her a need to be comforted and she does not share the same bad opinion about Pat as Luke does. The cheating also made sense given all the sharing content from before that I decided to trigger... All made sense for me, no shift of characters... And especially the dev is not wrong as long as the cheating content is avoidable (and optional) and provide the opportunity to players to make Kathryn stay faithful.
And if there are people, that decide to have Kathryn to cheat on Luke while not wanting any sharing/cheating content before that, they better blame themselves and not the dev for their poor decisions.

Poorly worded by me, because it's one-directional (looking at Kathryn and not also looking at Luke) - what I meant though, is that in terms of Kathryn, it was all about sharing, it was an NTS game up until the 0.8 update. Dev also said that there would be no cheating on Kathryn's side because it "isn't in her character" to do that. I get that things change, and I'm fine with that.

Ok.

The complaint being made in this respect though is that all of a sudden, in this update, there was no physical NTS (despite plenty of opportunity for it, and teasers suggesting it would be there), and only physical NTR content (adding "physical" to mean in person, and so discounting the webcam scene).

It's always the argument, but this is never about "but the NTR is optional and so you can't complain", it's about the way that it's brought about and the way here that it supplanted the NTS. Given how it shifted in this update, I can see why people would be worried for future updates. If there was a mix of NTS and NTR in this one, then presumably those complaints wouldn't exist, because it would show that both are intended going forwards. As it stands, it could currently suggest that NTS content will be phased out in favour of NTR content.

I do not get why people, as you say it here, think NTS can be set aside just because this update does not provide such content...
This update has no NTS content, ok... I can get it is disappointing for those who seek NTS only but is it so serious a problem for people to react so harshly? This update to not provide NTS does not mean the remaining of the game to have given up NTS as far as I know... My take is just about some middle ground...

To clarify my position on this last bit, I am not one who has that complaint personally. I am only saying that I can understand the position of those who do have that complaint.

I got that, no problem

 

[exazubi]

Your last line tells everything here. You haven't played a path where Luke did not cheat, for example. Those who have played such a path are right in calling the setup (starting with the argument) convoluted. Remember, as Joshy points out in his response, not everyone has had Luke cheating. Not everyone is playing only a cheating path. It's been discussed in detail over the weeks since the update dropped, and the general consensus among those who don't only play a cheating path, is that it made little sense, and was a shift in character. It's generally seen as a scene the dev put in to create drama and lead to the (optional) cheating scene, but there are other ways this could easily have been done without going back on what's been built in the previous six or seven releases.

Of course, there could have been other ways. But the developer wants drama in the game. Is he really forced to write his story the way everyone wants? It's still his creation. And not only is it the developer's decision how the story develops, it is also his decision if and when there are cuckold or NTR scenes, or other stuff.

And the whining that if Luke didn't cheat on Kath, then she shouldn't be allowed to either, is a flawed argument. The two things are unrelated. Because it's just like in real life: even if you're in a committed relationship, other people can still find you attractive and try to flirt with you. Whether you respond or not is up to you. The same can happen to your wife, regardless of what the you did or didn't. And that's exactly how it is in this game.

Several people are quite upset about Pat. However, he's not the only one who's set his sights on Kath. In fact, all the men in the game that Kath has encountered so far do that. Some of them do it in front of Luke's eyes, and we have the cuckold option to gradually and intentionally drive them into other arms; others do it without Luke noticing, and it's entirely up to Kath what she does with it. The only difference is that this time the player has the option to respond positively to it.

Okay, so Pat was the first to get something, if we allow it. So what? Some people love it, others don't. Let's move on

----

Well, yes, the developer has imposed a storyline on us. But he has to, his game needs some kind of narrative thread. At the crucial moment, however, the player decides whether something happens or not. Yes, Kath goes out with Pat, yes, they end up at the motel. But whether they end up in bed together or not is up to the player. And that should really be the end of it.

The next update is sure to come; the story will continue somehow. And it offers further options, including some of the LI storylines. Perhaps this time it will continue with Franklin, perhaps with the guy from prison, perhaps with Pat again, perhapts Albert. People can all continue arguing if they like, I won't. I'm enjoying the game as it is and am curious to see what happens next. I like Pat, as do many other Li. I don't care who it's about. The main thing is that it continues.

 

[Joshy92]

Of course, there could have been other ways. But the developer wants drama in the game. Is he really forced to write his story the way everyone wants? It's still his creation. And not only is it the developer's decision how the story develops, it is also his decision if and when there are cuckold or NTR scenes, or other stuff.

And the whining that if Luke didn't cheat on Kath, then she shouldn't be allowed to either, is a flawed argument. The two things are unrelated. Because it's just like in real life: even if you're in a committed relationship, other people can still find you attractive and try to flirt with you. Whether you respond or not is up to you. The same can happen to your wife, regardless of what the you did or didn't. And that's exactly how it is in this game.

Several people are quite upset about Pat. However, he's not the only one who's set his sights on Kath. In fact, all the men in the game that Kath has encountered so far do that. Some of them do it in front of Luke's eyes, and we have the cuckold option to gradually and intentionally drive them into other arms; others do it without Luke noticing, and it's entirely up to Kath what she does with it. The only difference is that this time the player has the option to respond positively to it.

Okay, so Pat was the first to get something, if we allow it. So what? Some people love it, others don't. Let's move on

----

Well, yes, the developer has imposed a storyline on us. But he has to, his game needs some kind of narrative thread. At the crucial moment, however, the player decides whether something happens or not. Yes, Kath goes out with Pat, yes, they end up at the motel. But whether they end up in bed together or not is up to the player. And that should really be the end of it.

The next update is sure to come; the story will continue somehow. And it offers further options, including some of the LI storylines. Perhaps this time it will continue with Franklin, perhaps with the guy from prison, perhaps with Pat again, perhapts Albert. People can all continue arguing if they like, I won't. I'm enjoying the game as it is and am curious to see what happens next. I like Pat, as do many other Li. I don't care who it's about. The main thing is that it continues.

Really? okay as usual what some people are angry about is other players assume both that we would choose for Luke to cheat or that it's the scenes themselves that people are upset over.

For the millionth time, they didn't have to have an argument forced on us. For god’s sake, when will people who like the cheating in this just read what other people have typed.

 

[TonyMurray]

Of course, there could have been other ways. But the developer wants drama in the game. Is he really forced to write his story the way everyone wants? It's still his creation. And not only is it the developer's decision how the story develops, it is also his decision if and when there are cuckold or NTR scenes, or other stuff.

And the whining that if Luke didn't cheat on Kath, then she shouldn't be allowed to either, is a flawed argument. The two things are unrelated. Because it's just like in real life: even if you're in a committed relationship, other people can still find you attractive and try to flirt with you. Whether you respond or not is up to you. The same can happen to your wife, regardless of what the you did or didn't. And that's exactly how it is in this game.

Several people are quite upset about Pat. However, he's not the only one who's set his sights on Kath. In fact, all the men in the game that Kath has encountered so far do that. Some of them do it in front of Luke's eyes, and we have the cuckold option to gradually and intentionally drive them into other arms; others do it without Luke noticing, and it's entirely up to Kath what she does with it. The only difference is that this time the player has the option to respond positively to it.

Okay, so Pat was the first to get something, if we allow it. So what? Some people love it, others don't. Let's move on

----

Well, yes, the developer has imposed a storyline on us. But he has to, his game needs some kind of narrative thread. At the crucial moment, however, the player decides whether something happens or not. Yes, Kath goes out with Pat, yes, they end up at the motel. But whether they end up in bed together or not is up to the player. And that should really be the end of it.

The next update is sure to come; the story will continue somehow. And it offers further options, including some of the LI storylines. Perhaps this time it will continue with Franklin, perhaps with the guy from prison, perhaps with Pat again, perhapts Albert. People can all continue arguing if they like, I won't. I'm enjoying the game as it is and am curious to see what happens next. I like Pat, as do many other Li. I don't care who it's about. The main thing is that it continues.

It's another argument targeting the wrong thing, so I'll only provide abbreviated responses:
- No one is saying the dev can't do it his way, some people are just saying they didn't think the chosen way really fit the story on all paths.
- Dev wanted drama and put some in that worked for the path he was pointing players towards, but that some felt was shoehorned in on other paths, where different choices had been made earlier.
- Your "whining" comment is the flawed argument, because you've got it backwards. I don't think anyone said that if Luke didn't cheat then Kathryn shouldn't be allowed to cheat. What was said is that Luke cheating isn't canon, it's optional, and therefore people can't use "well Luke cheated, so it's only fair that Kathryn cheats" as a blanket defence for her cheating.