RPGM The Last Sovereign [v0.74.7] [Sierra Lee]

[Maizemallard]

Welp I'm bored time for a theory!

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[Fulminato]

Hard to say not hiring the mercenary is the right choice. You are letting a lot of people die if you do. Personally I always skip Trin's investment (also that kills the bank manager!) It might seem like a dumb idea but honestly that amount of money doesn't do much. The only real loss in the missing Trin RP but I got over that.

if you evaluate the choice only on cost-benefit level there isn't any doubt.
you gain an armor you can buy, a little bonus in a later event irrilevant with a choice (a choice you foreseeable take) or without a big enough hidden score (a threshold you hardly hit without planing from the start to reach). no rp, no unique reward, nothing at all.

so no, if you evaluate only efficiency there isn't any room to debate. the moral/empathy fallout of that decision are painful, yes, but simon value pragmatic efficency over morale. the old owner of feroholm bar can attest it.

 

[zoyle]

can ask your investment plan? because it's possibile take both ardford bank and 50K OoS investment. (in a non-whored playthougth)




first round of investment is relatively straightforward. you want the bank (with trin) and the mine (with megail). it's painful but not hiring mercenary is the right choice. they hamper your return because you keep paying them and they don't grant anything worthwhile. it's a realy a pure cold calculation about cost-benefit of your ProNs, because the empathy-level consequence of that are... significative.

you are past that point but "megail gift" (the one she propose you after rescuring her) is a good choice. and take extra money from her for sure NOT (it reduce, by a lot, your next two returns), same converting pron in sx, is alwasy a bad decision (there is only one occasion, in a marginal situation, you want do it, but not for the money, you gain enough Sx by normal gameplay)

totaly avoid

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and shrine renovation (the one carina talk about). i advice against the anti corruption campaign, it isn't a total bad investment, but it's focused about hidden score, and if you don't take advantage of it (and in a blind run is very, very hard to do so) is basicaly wasted money.

the bridge repair are in mix bag, it's beneficial because you reduce future investment cost (and you want them, for sure), but don't repair the bridge now can benefit your hidden scores in the end. for a first/blind playthrough i advice to repair the bridge, it's a solid decision and without you capitalize the hidden gain it's only harmful.

cache excavation can be good, if you have the money, they return a bit of cash in the next return, and the equip you gain is nice. (and a little boost on simon stats), beatification works can be delayed in a future return, and take now is nearly useless

Yeah I had no problems with Ardford bank; I was trying to work out a plan to get Ivalan+Ardford but it just doesn't work out like I'd want; too many sacrifices in the early battles to make it entirely worth it.

This is what I ended up going with, which really isn't THAT different from my last playthrough (it gets very slightly better outcomes in Chapter 5 due to preparing certain events better, like Annah's Synod score)

Yhilin Bank 1 + Mine Processing + Prem Steel 1 + Megail's Gift + Stineford Magic Shop + Yhilin Public works 1

Ardoheim Magic Trade + Eustrin Supplier + Desert Bounty shop + Eustrin Manufacturer + Eustrin Embassy

Yhilini Supplier + the full Ardoheim set + 100k OoS + 300k Ardford Bank + 30k ProN to Sx conversion = 195k remaining when buying Vinario

I dont love Premium Steel 1 (not buying Prem Steel until like Ch 4 iteration 3 was a feature of my double banks plan), but without a mercenary contract the cost in the battle of Yhilin was just a bit too high in terms of extra funding wasted on chaos and collateral damage cleanups.

Having the 2nd bank early would make the early chapter 4 decisions easier (not requiring a compromise of core earning investments to get one of the stupid, bad, expensive investments necessary to get Elleani's RP up quickly), but I ended up coming up with a better plan for the Synod that got me all the outcomes I wanted w/o needing her to get to 90+ RP (still have to make a couple purchases I dont want to get her to 80, but managable). The worst cost is not having influence for the Succubi Knight order .. which, at least right now, isn't something I'm terribly worried about.

I think the 'worst' outcome in this playthrough is Carina's soldiers dying in the horde battle.

I think the oddest thing about this pathing was having to intentionally buy a worse investment early (Eustrin over Yhilini) in order to come out at 195k instead of 220k when the time comes to purchase Vinario.

The calculator is great but unfortunately it seems to have some challenges tracking the Sister Kara variables if you use 'reset chapter' on a later section that cares about her presence (notably, the Synod). This causes it to frequently lose track of what Kerannii's synod score should be and produce some inaccurate results.

 

[zoyle]

if you evaluate the choice only on cost-benefit level there isn't any doubt.
you gain an armor you can buy, a little bonus in a later event irrilevant with a choice (a choice you foreseeable take) or without a big enough hidden score (a threshold you hardly hit without planing from the start to reach). no rp, no unique reward, nothing at all.

so no, if you evaluate only efficiency there isn't any room to debate. the moral/empathy fallout of that decision are painful, yes, but simon value pragmatic efficency over morale. the old owner of feroholm bar can attest it.

Its funny because I've never seriously considered purchasing a mercenary group in the first round of investments, the retention costs are too high and the reward for saving Carina's soldiers is minimal. Yhilin Bank 1 is probably the single best first-round investment, since you nearly recoup its cost in the 15k it provides over the counter before it ever pays off. It also provides an important 5 RP with Trin, which is important for unlocking the Altina/Trin events, which are critical for getting Altina's RP to 100 before the Erosian Crisis, which in turn let you research something besides Unpeople Transformation first in Chapter 4 and still retain the full harem bonus for the Fucklord battle, which lets you do Purity first and mine out some extra Ginasta RP (making having a positive score during the Erosian War viable, which is the only way that not sending early troops is a viable strategy to max out the results of the war). Without the Trin/Altina events, you can't really max Altina until you complete her custom wand, and you can't get the best result from the Fucklord Battle without Dari as her absence costs you both the max harem size bonus and max bonus for number of girls at 100 RP. You can get by short of one of the two of those, but not both.

 

[zoyle]

Welp I'm bored time for a theory!

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I think it's pretty clear that the Chosen are the product of something that isn't actually Ivala (possibly the same 'she' that is imprisoning Ivala), and that Simon is in some way related to Ivala's plan to get herself out of that scenario. That's hinted in a couple between-chapter cutscenes, but also explains why the various Ivalan priestesses around Simon early on are always calmed by their prayers (notably, both Sarai and Carina comment on this when they first find out about Simon, but it also helps explain why no other priestesses notice). And, of course, this is impossible to know without using the wiki or Fulminato's calculator, but starting at the end of Chapter 4, certain actions of Simon's start adding to an Ivala RP score, much like Tertia's RP score is tracked well in advance of you meeting her. These gains all come directly from Simon encountering or investigating suspicious stuff related to Ivala, and to my eye what they're related to is Simon directly encountering and/or investigating the forces that are imprisoning Ivala.

The storyline of this game is quite complex and I enjoy it a lot, but it's also fairly transparent at times, and I'd be utterly shocked if 2 of the last 3 slots on the "Others" Harem menu aren't Ivala and Mithyn.

The thing I find more mysterious is Elleani. With Esthera taking the last 'leaders' spot (as opposed to an Others spot), there's no room for her in the current Harem menu, and given the current storyline around her it seems like it would require something fairly drastic to prevent her from being a member. Which implies, to me, one of 3 things: Elleani isn't what she appears to be, or Elleani is associated with the primary secretive enemy, or something very bad (like dying) or very good (like taking up a whole divine shard and becoming a goddess) is going to happen to her. No matter which of those it is, it seems like she's likely to be very, very important to the endgame storyline.

 

[Waxer]

if you evaluate the choice only on cost-benefit level there isn't any doubt.
you gain an armor you can buy, a little bonus in a later event irrilevant with a choice (a choice you foreseeable take) or without a big enough hidden score (a threshold you hardly hit without planing from the start to reach). no rp, no unique reward, nothing at all.

so no, if you evaluate only efficiency there isn't any room to debate. the moral/empathy fallout of that decision are painful, yes, but simon value pragmatic efficency over morale. the old owner of feroholm bar can attest it.

Just because you say there is no room for debate, doesn't mean there is not any actual room for debate. And you are right there are no amazing super secret rewards for saving them. (Yet.) But it's about saving lives dude. And again there is nothing lost except some Pron which you won't need if you do your other investments right.
In my route I didn't whore qum and saved the men. And you know what?

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[Fulminato]

Yhilin Bank 1 + Mine Processing + Prem Steel 1 + Megail's Gift + Stineford Magic Shop + Yhilin Public works 1

dump premium steel in forst round, you don't need it. even for aka rp for the airship.

Ardoheim Magic Trade + Eustrin Supplier + Desert Bounty shop + Eustrin Manufacturer + Eustrin Embassy

eustrins supplier is a waste of money, you don't need it for sure for is bonus during BoY and the 3AW is trascurable as well.
the return for the supplier in chapter 4+ are laughable, buy yhilin supplier in this round is a net gain of 10K

Yhilini Supplier + the full Ardoheim set + 100k OoS + 300k Ardford Bank + 30k ProN to Sx conversion = 195k remaining when buying Vinario

100K OoS is useless, 50K are well enough for anything. even in erosia section. push for 300K for ardford bank is high questionable, mercenary flottila is borderline to a scam, and cost way more the 100K discount in the bank (and the hidden scores gain are the same for investing in the bank to 300K or 400K, it's a big hint from the game)

I dont love Premium Steel 1 (not buying Prem Steel until like Ch 4 iteration 3 was a feature of my double banks plan), but without a mercenary contract the cost in the battle of Yhilin was just a bit too high in terms of extra funding wasted on chaos and collateral damage cleanups.

you can have a perfect boy (no DF used for any restoration or rebuild project) but you can dealy easly the shrine conversion from chapter 3 to 4 with minimal impact, so you can have a little leeway in DF spending.

Having the 2nd bank early would make the early chapter 4 decisions easier (not requiring a compromise of core earning investments to get one of the stupid, bad, expensive investments necessary to get Elleani's RP up quickly), but I ended up coming up with a better plan for the Synod that got me all the outcomes I wanted w/o needing her to get to 90+ RP (still have to make a couple purchases I dont want to get her to 80, but managable). The worst cost is not having influence for the Succubi Knight order .. which, at least right now, isn't something I'm terribly worried about.

as said before, you can take both ardfrod bank (ardford+ivalan) without making the compromise you are talking with a better spending plan.

I think the 'worst' outcome in this playthrough is Carina's soldiers dying in the horde battle.

save them is to much costly, even only the iron cudgel is a total of 40K, to much for the little money you have in the eraly game, and they don't grant anything worthwhile. (the armor cost 5K/4.5K in premium steel, if you reinforce ardoheim border you don't need their bonus in the battle, and for the bonus to works need to add an army of 200+ in that segment, so after some mandatory loss since the start, a thing not required in any scenario)

The calculator is great but unfortunately it seems to have some challenges tracking the Sister Kara variables if you use 'reset chapter' on a later section that cares about her presence (notably, the Synod). This causes it to frequently lose track of what Kerannii's synod score should be and produce some inaccurate results.

the calculator is working only in sequential order, if you reset a chapter, you need reset all the successive and redo the selection. it's a mechanical limitation i cannot go around (with my skill, but without rebuild the calculator form scratch don't think is feasable with any coding skill level)

Just because you say there is no room for debate, doesn't mean there is not any actual room for debate. And you are right there are no amazing super secret rewards for saving them. (Yet.) But it's about saving lives dude. And again there is nothing lost except some Pron which you won't need if you do your other investments right.
In my route I didn't whore qum and saved the men. And you know what?

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you can drop the 'yet'. if a little bonus will come was in the synod, they actualy are at the synod, but grant nothing. outside a little cameo in the ending i don't see how the can help in anything. and the question it's the same. it's not the thing you need to sacrifice for doing that (and you do, for sure) but the thing you LOSE in not saving them. and you lose nothing.you can save them and still have a strong save? yes, you can achieve a lot with hiring mercenary? yes. but wath you lose if you don't? and the reply is a plain nothing. (well a free armor you can buy with 4.5K Sx for a 40K ProN investment is... well irrilevant?)

 

[zoyle]

dump premium steel in forst round, you don't need it. even for aka rp for the airship.


eustrins supplier is a waste of money, you don't need it for sure for is bonus during BoY and the 3AW is trascurable as well.
the return for the supplier in chapter 4+ are laughable, buy yhilin supplier in this round is a net gain of 10K



100K OoS is useless, 50K are well enough for anything. even in erosia section. push for 300K for ardford bank is high questionable, mercenary flottila is borderline to a scam, and cost way more the 100K discount in the bank (and the hidden scores gain are the same for investing in the bank to 300K or 400K, it's a big hint from the game)


you can have a perfect boy (no DF used for any restoration or rebuild project) but you can dealy easly the shrine conversion from chapter 3 to 4 with minimal impact, so you can have a little leeway in DF spending.



as said before, you can take both ardfrod bank (ardford+ivalan) without making the compromise you are talking with a better spending plan.



save them is to much costly, even only the iron cudgel is a total of 40K, to much for the little money you have in the eraly game, and they don't grant anything worthwhile. (the armor cost 5K/4.5K in premium steel, if you reinforce ardoheim border you don't need their bonus in the battle, and for the bonus to works need to add an army of 200+ in that segment, so after some mandatory loss since the start, a thing not required in any scenario)



the calculator is working only in sequential order, if you reset a chapter, you need reset all the successive and redo the selection. it's a mechanical limitation i cannot go around (with my skill, but without rebuild the calculator form scratch don't think is feasable with any coding skill level)




you can drop the 'yet'. if a little bonus will come was in the synod, they actualy are at the synod, but grant nothing. outside a little cameo in the ending i don't see how the can help in anything. and the question it's the same. it's not the thing you need to sacrifice for doing that (and you do, for sure) but the thing you LOSE in not saving them. and you lose nothing.you can save them and still have a strong save? yes, you can achieve a lot with hiring mercenary? yes. but wath you lose if you don't? and the reply is a plain nothing. (well a free armor you can buy with 4.5K Sx for a 40K ProN investment is... well irrilevant?)

I might need to see what that plot looks like because when I tried to do the double bank plan without early premium steel, I ended up having a hard time minimizing chaos and CD during the battle of Yhilin due to the loss of army quality.
I kind of like the 100k OoS because it minimizes the number of bad, expensive investments (like war monument or givini mage guild) you have to waste money on in order to get the 9 auxillary diversity. With 2 diversity from OoS, hitting 9 just requires Stineford Succubus Tower and the Yhilin Mercenary guild.


What I found re: resetting is that if you reset a later chapter that is checking the earlier kara variables, they get lost. IE, if you reset the Synod chapter, it will no longer properly calculate Orcent+Kara for Kerannii's score.

Edit: I played with this a bit and managed to get to 17 VP/3 CD/3 Chaos which is pretty close to the absolute minimum ideal result (double campaign + northern site, only 1 discretionary on each, though I think that makes getting all 14 forging ties impossible, which is annoying .. haven't found a way to shave off 1 more CD to get it to 0 with the after-events)

Maybe this is a weird question: Your calculator provides the benefits of Megail being at 100 RP for the Yhilin aftermath and the House Jade raid even when she hits 100 in a way where there's no chance to have her RP lock conversation. Is that really how it works? If you enter the BoY with 99 Megail RP, she gains the last point from 4 or less Chaos, will you really get the 100 RP benefit (-2 chaos) and the econ/vp benefits during her background conversation?

Because typically you don't get those benefits until you have an RP lock convo.

 

[Fulminato]

I might need to see what that plot looks like because when I tried to do the double bank plan without early premium steel, I ended up having a hard time minimizing chaos and CD during the battle of Yhilin due to the loss of army quality.
I kind of like the 100k OoS because it minimizes the number of bad, expensive investments (like war monument or givini mage guild) you have to waste money on in order to get the 9 auxillary diversity. With 2 diversity from OoS, hitting 9 just requires Stineford Succubus Tower and the Yhilin Mercenary guild.

50K in this section is worth a lor more of 1M spread over the whole chapter 4.
and the monument isn't bad, the contrary, is a very good investment to do during chapte 4. doing in the first iteration is basicaly a gamble about donovan suitor, but it's gain are massive, there are a lot more compared any other investment with similar price, and take it in mid chapter 4 is a good decision anyway keep in mind, it alone add +10 to givini score, this mean the orc merchant return is one notch higher, so it return a bit of money (it's hard reach givini 50 without the monument in the whole chapter 4 without wasting money in truly useless investement, like the magic guild) add a lot of rp scores, a big social score gain, over the help in erosia calculation (and probabily a couple of minor bonus i forgot now)

What I found re: resetting is that if you reset a later chapter that is checking the earlier kara variables, they get lost. IE, if you reset the Synod chapter, it will no longer properly calculate Orcent+Kara for Kerannii's score.

no, the calculator don't works like this. each chapter is processed in sequential order, and if it's a bug in a button function it's will reset the wrong section, if you try to reset a chapter and the chapter don't reset, but another does is easy to spot. outside this possibility there isn't in the code beign able to change a previous chapter.

Edit: I played with this a bit and managed to get to 17 VP/3 CD/3 Chaos which is pretty close to the absolute minimum ideal result (double campaign + northern site, only 1 discretionary on each, though I think that makes getting all 14 forging ties impossible, which is annoying .. haven't found a way to shave off 1 more CD to get it to 0 with the after-events)

chaos [3]: ambassador evaluation (-1) queensmen (-1) megail aftermath 100+ (-2) = -1
CD [3]: Carina rp 74-50 (-1) Yarra aftermath 100+ (-1) Qum Heal Thelon (-1) = 0
VP [17]: Megail 100+ after house jade (+2) double campaign (+6) = 25

Maybe this is a weird question: Your calculator provides the benefits of Megail being at 100 RP for the Yhilin aftermath and the House Jade raid even when she hits 100 in a way where there's no chance to have her RP lock conversation. Is that really how it works? If you enter the BoY with 99 Megail RP, she gains the last point from 4 or less Chaos, will you really get the 100 RP benefit (-2 chaos) and the econ/vp benefits during her background conversation?

Because typically you don't get those benefits until you have an RP lock convo.

the requisite is 100+, not affection locked, before chapter 3 don't think there is a check about locked RP, but only 100+
so yes, if you push megail over 100 with low choas result you gain the benefit. i can be sure because it's one of the pillar of my min-max playthrough

 

[zoyle]

50K in this section is worth a lor more of 1M spread over the whole chapter 4.
and the monument isn't bad, the contrary, is a very good investment to do during chapte 4. doing in the first iteration is basicaly a gamble about donovan suitor, but it's gain are massive, there are a lot more compared any other investment with similar price, and take it in mid chapter 4 is a good decision anyway keep in mind, it alone add +10 to givini score, this mean the orc merchant return is one notch higher, so it return a bit of money (it's hard reach givini 50 without the monument in the whole chapter 4 without wasting money in truly useless investement, like the magic guild) add a lot of rp scores, a big social score gain, over the help in erosia calculation (and probabily a couple of minor bonus i forgot now)



no, the calculator don't works like this. each chapter is processed in sequential order, and if it's a bug in a button function it's will reset the wrong section, if you try to reset a chapter and the chapter don't reset, but another does is easy to spot. outside this possibility there isn't in the code beign able to change a previous chapter.



chaos [3]: ambassador evaluation (-1) queensmen (-1) megail aftermath 100+ (-2) = -1
CD [3]: Carina rp 74-50 (-1) Yarra aftermath 100+ (-1) Qum Heal Thelon (-1) = 0
VP [17]: Megail 100+ after house jade (+2) double campaign (+6) = 25



the requisite is 100+, not affection locked, before chapter 3 don't think there is a check about locked RP, but only 100+
so yes, if you push megail over 100 with low choas result you gain the benefit. i can be sure because it's one of the pillar of my min-max playthrough

Yeah that changes everything, then, as I can easily switch to Megail as first reunion talk and get that benefit.

War Monument is alright though I usually end up buying it after the war or in Chapter 5. Maybe with this plan I won't feel quite so much pressure to universally buy high ROI investments during the first phase of chapter 4 - my investments in that phase have usually been all stuff that pays out 200%+ that I couldn't fit into the post-war or that aren't available then - Stineford and Givini banks, Tradesmasher/Lonely Sailor/etc, Eustrin Guild, etc.

it looks like I could still do 100 OoS if I wanted. It looks like with the following setup, I have 50k spare when done in Ardford:

Yhilin Bank 1 - Yhilin Mine - Secret Supplier - Stineford Magic Shop
-
Yhilin Supplier - Ardoheim Magic Trade - Eustrin Manufacturer - Eustrin Processor - Aram Bounty Guild (10k remains)
-
All 3 reunion mercs - Cache - Premium Steel Owner - Ardford stuff except Merc Flotilla - both banks - Order of Silence 50k - no ProN conversion (not necessary) - 50k remains

There's not really anything to spend that extra 50k on, but I'm at least interested in exploring whether I can get anything beneficial out of early war monument leading to 90+ Elleani RP during the Synod. Might be able to cut Lustlord Temples and recoup most of the cost of the monument, though.

 

[Demon Jhim]

Yeah that changes everything, then, as I can easily switch to Megail as first reunion talk and get that benefit.

War Monument is alright though I usually end up buying it after the war or in Chapter 5. Maybe with this plan I won't feel quite so much pressure to universally buy high ROI investments during the first phase of chapter 4 - my investments in that phase have usually been all stuff that pays out 200%+ that I couldn't fit into the post-war or that aren't available then - Stineford and Givini banks, Tradesmasher/Lonely Sailor/etc, Eustrin Guild, etc.

it looks like I could still do 100 OoS if I wanted. It looks like with the following setup, I have 50k spare when done in Ardford:

Yhilin Bank 1 - Yhilin Mine - Secret Supplier - Stineford Magic Shop
-
Yhilin Supplier - Ardoheim Magic Trade - Eustrin Manufacturer - Eustrin Processor - Aram Bounty Guild (10k remains)
-
All 3 reunion mercs - Cache - Premium Steel Owner - Ardford stuff except Merc Flotilla - both banks - Order of Silence 50k - no ProN conversion (not necessary) - 50k remains

There's not really anything to spend that extra 50k on, but I'm at least interested in exploring whether I can get anything beneficial out of early war monument leading to 90+ Elleani RP during the Synod. Might be able to cut Lustlord Temples and recoup most of the cost of the monument, though.

Up to now i still have not bought the monunent and I'm already in the second gathering.

 

[Waxer]

you can drop the 'yet'. if a little bonus will come was in the synod, they actualy are at the synod, but grant nothing. outside a little cameo in the ending i don't see how the can help in anything. and the question it's the same. it's not the thing you need to sacrifice for doing that (and you do, for sure) but the thing you LOSE in not saving them. and you lose nothing.you can save them and still have a strong save? yes, you can achieve a lot with hiring mercenary? yes. but wath you lose if you don't? and the reply is a plain nothing. (well a free armor you can buy with 4.5K Sx for a 40K ProN investment is... well irrilevant?)

I won't drop the yet, we never know what the future might hold. Before the Synod you would have no doubt said that we'll never see Carina's men after their cameo in the 3rd war but there they were. And gain nothing? Is saving the lives of the solders and helping Carina not reward enough? And what do I have to lose in saving them? Some Pron? What's the point of Pron if you don't spend it on anything meaningful? However if your way of doing things doesn't have you save the men that's fine. We all have to make sacrifices no matter the play style.
Just stop telling people they NEED to do it to. It's an option, not a requirement.

 

[Aeduaard]

So no one update the story mode? it still 0.51

 

[zoyle]

I won't drop the yet, we never know what the future might hold. Before the Synod you would have no doubt said that we'll never see Carina's men after their cameo in the 3rd war but there they were. And gain nothing? Is saving the lives of the solders and helping Carina not reward enough? And what do I have to lose in saving them? Some Pron? What's the point of Pron if you don't spend it on anything meaningful? However if your way of doing things doesn't have you save the men that's fine. We all have to make sacrifices no matter the play style.
Just stop telling people they NEED to do it to. It's an option, not a requirement.

The thing is that small amounts of ProN saved early in the game add up to enormous amounts later on which can swing better outcomes; is investing in saving Carina's soldiers who don't do anything worth more damage during the Erosian wars or ensuring you get the social changes you want out of the Synod? Getting things like full Succubi acceptance and assistance for Tak'kan have much greater positive impact than saving a few lives, and they require you to have a lot of wise investing in building up the resources and influence you need to get all the good results at the same time.

And those things all cascade: without church cooperation from Gawnfall, you'll not only get worse battle outcomes in the Erosian War, but you'll permanently lose some of your unique orcs, losing out on the benefits of having them at every later opportunity.

Maximizing your cashflow prior to the 3rd Arclent War dramatically improves your options and outcomes in Chapter 4 and 5. Do you NEED to let Carina's men die? You do not. You do, however, need to if you want to maximize the results of a lot of later events, because investing in a mercenary company early consumes a lot of your resources and has a significant, detrimental impact on your long-term cash flow.

 

[Demon Jhim]

50K in this section is worth a lor more of 1M spread over the whole chapter 4.
and the monument isn't bad, the contrary, is a very good investment to do during chapte 4. doing in the first iteration is basicaly a gamble about donovan suitor, but it's gain are massive, there are a lot more compared any other investment with similar price, and take it in mid chapter 4 is a good decision anyway keep in mind, it alone add +10 to givini score, this mean the orc merchant return is one notch higher, so it return a bit of money (it's hard reach givini 50 without the monument in the whole chapter 4 without wasting money in truly useless investement, like the magic guild) add a lot of rp scores, a big social score gain, over the help in erosia calculation (and probabily a couple of minor bonus i forgot now)



no, the calculator don't works like this. each chapter is processed in sequential order, and if it's a bug in a button function it's will reset the wrong section, if you try to reset a chapter and the chapter don't reset, but another does is easy to spot. outside this possibility there isn't in the code beign able to change a previous chapter.



chaos [3]: ambassador evaluation (-1) queensmen (-1) megail aftermath 100+ (-2) = -1
CD [3]: Carina rp 74-50 (-1) Yarra aftermath 100+ (-1) Qum Heal Thelon (-1) = 0
VP [17]: Megail 100+ after house jade (+2) double campaign (+6) = 25



the requisite is 100+, not affection locked, before chapter 3 don't think there is a check about locked RP, but only 100+
so yes, if you push megail over 100 with low choas result you gain the benefit. i can be sure because it's one of the pillar of my min-max playthrough

I keep seeing comment about calculator is that a mod?

 

[Waxer]

The thing is that small amounts of ProN saved early in the game add up to enormous amounts later on which can swing better outcomes; is investing in saving Carina's soldiers who don't do anything worth more damage during the Erosian wars or ensuring you get the social changes you want out of the Synod? Getting things like full Succubi acceptance and assistance for Tak'kan have much greater positive impact than saving a few lives, and they require you to have a lot of wise investing in building up the resources and influence you need to get all the good results at the same time.

And those things all cascade: without church cooperation from Gawnfall, you'll not only get worse battle outcomes in the Erosian War, but you'll permanently lose some of your unique orcs, losing out on the benefits of having them at every later opportunity.

Maximizing your cashflow prior to the 3rd Arclent War dramatically improves your options and outcomes in Chapter 4 and 5. Do you NEED to let Carina's men die? You do not. You do, however, need to if you want to maximize the results of a lot of later events, because investing in a mercenary company early consumes a lot of your resources and has a significant, detrimental impact on your long-term cash flow.

You in fact, do not. Saved Carina's men. Didn't whore Qum. Got the best results at Gawnfall. Reached the maxed threshold for for the three fronts in the war. Which is my point.

 

[zoyle]

You in fact, do not. Saved Carina's men. Didn't whore Qum. Got the best results at Gawnfall. Reached the maxed threshold for for the three fronts in the war. Which is my point.

Yeah? when did you get your Incubus King Pin?

How did your return to Stineford go?

At some point something has to give

You can make any individual choice work, but you give something up somewhere else in the process when you cut your long-term income. That may not even entirely be results in content we can see at this point (for example, we don't know the consequences of all these very expensive Ch 5 investments like Ferroholm restoration and the enormous investment opportunities in Rodak and the Orgasmic Empire after Gathering 2, but even with an optimized income route you can't afford all of it)

Carina's dudes are a really low ROI proposition with a hefty cost.

 

[zoyle]

I keep seeing comment about calculator is that a mod?

Fulminado has a downloadable Javascript calculator that lets you plan out every decision in a playthrough; it's linked couple pages earlier in the thread. It's very helpful for planning your investment path and seeing how it plays into major decisions and secret stats down the road.

 

[Waxer]

Yeah? when did you get your Incubus King Pin?

How did your return to Stineford go?

At some point something has to give

You can make any individual choice work, but you give something up somewhere else in the process when you cut your long-term income. That may not even entirely be results in content we can see at this point (for example, we don't know the consequences of all these very expensive Ch 5 investments like Ferroholm restoration and the enormous investment opportunities in Rodak and the Orgasmic Empire after Gathering 2, but even with an optimized income route you can't afford all of it)

Carina's dudes are a really low ROI proposition with a hefty cost.

No you are right in that regard, no playthrough is without it's sacrifices and mine is no exception. However which and what they player chooses to sacrifice is up to them, with no clear cut right or wrong answer to it. I'm not arguing against YOU choosing to not to save Carina's men, that is no doubt a choice that helped you in the future. I however don't consider it a needed sacrifice in the way I organize my moral priorities or Pron priorities.

That's my argument. I'm not saying players should never skip mercenaries. I'm saying that this isn't a multiple choice answer with Option C, let them die, being the right answer for every person. If someone wants to save the Carnia's men, it IS possible without throwing it into complete or even minor chaos.

 

[zoyle]

No you are right in that regard, no playthrough is without it's sacrifices and mine is no exception. However which and what they player chooses to sacrifice is up to them, with no clear cut right or wrong answer to it. I'm not arguing against YOU choosing to not to save Carina's men, that is no doubt a choice that helped you in the future. I however don't consider it a needed sacrifice in the way I organize my moral priorities or Pron priorities.

That's my argument. I'm not saying players should never skip mercenaries. I'm saying that this isn't a multiple choice answer with Option C, let them die, being the right answer for every person. If someone wants to save the Carnia's men, it IS possible without throwing it into complete or even minor chaos.

Sure, but it's an entirely reasonable argument to point out the benefits are extremely minor, which is something to weigh in consideration of the other potential sacrifices. There are very few 'bad' outcomes in the game that don't have lingering consequences to work around later on, and this is one of them.

(another is how higher Aram CD is good as long as you stay below 30, and Stineford CD above 10 but below 15 during the 3rd Arclent War, which are actively better than the alternatives)