Durisaz

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Apr 18, 2021
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Regarding all the criticism, I'm honestly curious what game with Mind Control as main theme would be considered good. I'm mostly referring to DaClown's points, since they seems to be rated best among critics. If there are games that are far superior to this one, I'd like to check them as well.

Regarding my enjoyment of product, I'm enjoying ride so far. I don't mind MC. Maybe I'm starved for characters with any personality, so his wimpiness is breath of fresh air. From the start I imagined him not to be sharpest tool in the shed, so him going into limo with first big-boobed chauffer he meets fits my head-canon.

Regarding flashbacks I was not too interested in first, but second one was honestly intriguing. I'm curious about presented world and powers that be.

Apart from that I do agree that creators concentrated mostly on presentation, because this update is woefully lacking in plot development. I do not know process, but I would expect such length in monthly release not quarterly.
 

keer

Active Member
Jun 20, 2017
662
773
Throw off the save with the beginning of the new content)) Please, for convenience .. The game is good
 

DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
275
The limo driver has a gun?
Bang. You're dead. I take it that you never attempted to resist cooperation with the limo driver. She pulls a gun on you if you refuse to wear the mask. She pulls a gun with you if you go to bed and ignore her when she flashes the lights at you to indicate for you to come out to her.

I personally don't like the mean old lady, but the game wasn't made just for me. If you can, just ignore those characters, if you can't, the game is just not for you.
The game is presently setup such that you literally can not ignore any of the characters. I tested specifically for those routes. You can not avoid attempting to use your power on or otherwise interacting with Sharon following the first crystal vision. You can not leave the house and continue the day without having her make you coffee (MC eats spit, I am almost certain of it.)

You can not avoid the limo driver. You can not avoid Alex. You can not avoid the modeling agency. You can not avoid creeping on targets for the modeling agency. You can not avoid using the mind control at the direction of the plot.

At current, there is no options as is standard in many of the better designed eroge to tell the game "I never want to see this character again."

Best you can do is pretend like the character doesn't exist and skip as fast as possible over all their scenes.

This is in part due to the choice-centric non-game-mechanized design of the prototype at current. Because all the actions that are being coded in are all about leading you to viewing all the hard-produced-and-time-consuming renders, there are no options for simply not activating content. Comments by the devs themselves that I made sure to collect from across the history of the thread here show that as far as the devs are concerned they're being benevolent by subjecting us to all this.

And about the mc being a pushover, i personaly prefer the slow increase in power story rather than him being near omnipotent from day 1.
I ain't asking for the MC to be an overpowered god. I have noted that the logical conclusion of the premises as written is that the MC is an annoying little bug that is going to get dominated by the big bad mind controlling alpha males or he's going to get squashed. Deviations from that would be bad writing in general and inconsistent with the premises. Or they would take master work writers--more than a few--to convincingly sell.

No. My criticism at core is far more about the basic premises of the MC's personality and variations of how the player can or can not chose how they act. IE how they reflect the promise "On your birthday, you find out that you have the power to control other people's minds. How will you use this newfound power is up to you."

Note the pronouns used there. It isn't "On the Mcfuckin's birthday, he finds out that he has the power to control other people's minds. How he will use this newfound power is up to him." Dev made a promise to the players.

At best, the dev is profoundly fucking up on the delivery of that promise. At worst, this is crypto-sissification or crypto-femdom or crypto-maledom-on-maledom game where a bait and switch is being pulled on the player base in the interest of J.J. Abrams or M. Night Shyamalan style narrative.

At current, objectively how the mind control is used is entirely up to the dev.

Regarding all the criticism, I'm honestly curious what game with Mind Control as main theme would be considered good. I'm mostly referring to DaClown's points, since they seems to be rated best among critics. If there are games that are far superior to this one, I'd like to check them as well.
Overwhored, Harem Collector, VILLAGE of NIGHTMARES (queer content but top notch corruption), the Company, Lab Rats 2 (not great, but at least it has more freedom of choice how you use mind control and who you use it on and what kinds of mind control you use), Ravager, Deviant Discoveries is better in the BDSM department by a lot but could use vast improvements to the actual mind control mechanics, Wife Trainer, Book of Lust, Unholy Arts, Spiral Clicker, Whoremaker, and Anomaly Vault (I think).

For straight up BDSM without mind control, there's a lot of examples that do it better and hotter.

Admittedly most of the "you have an innate mind control power that allows control over subjects by voice or eye contact" is a relatively badly developed genre. Most can't hack the balance between overpowered non-sense and escalations to world domination vs underpowered barely useful powers that hardly are distinguishable from non-mind-control NLP/PUA techniques. Which is like I said a hard genre to write convincingly. There's whole libraries of examples though on places like the MC archives on ASSTR, so these people could learn to depict this stuff better by actually reading the works of better writers in this specific genre.

Apart from that I do agree that creators concentrated mostly on presentation, because this update is woefully lacking in plot development. I do not know process, but I would expect such length in monthly release not quarterly.
The dev is very obviously trained in some older rendering pipeline method. They can produce pretty good 3D models and animation. The vast majority of the "game" is basically just a scaffolding holding together their animations. The programming is unsophisticated and the game design is pretty much non-existent; it is clear that the background of the dev is as an aspiring animator and render tech rather than from the game industry.

What is going on is that it takes them probably about a week to produce a couple minutes of animation. Then they have to go through an editing process that often means making new scenes or re-rendering. Best practice for game design and VN development would be to not worry about getting the final renders in upfront but to slap in fast and dirty place holder art and replace that as the renders finish, so you can focus on the core game design and narrative and getting that out as fast as possible.

The rendering process itself basically progresses as fast as the hardware allows. If the dev is running a single computer for development of all this then their computer may sit there running for days to render a few minutes of animation during which the dev can't use the computer or will at the least suffer performance losses in jointly running tasks.

The dev is making some of the choices that they're making because they want the ending to be a surprise to everyone as it happens. The prudent thing developmentally would be to write backwards. Start with the ending or endings of the game/story and the beginning and just connect those together with nothing fancy just brief sketches and filler text about how it starts and how it ends. Then start adding what they have in sequence between those scenes moving the linking devices to connect the whole graph of the story/game together. Fill it all in as the product is finished rather than making everyone wait until the finished art is ready for an unfinished and untested prototype.

The issue about that approach for the dev is that they're trying to generate interest in their project by frontloading the animation and high detail models which is their strong point and the main selling point. They're making consumable media. Once you know how it ends and you know all the surprises there isn't anything left to read or play. It's one and done. They don't have a replayable game design and don't have intentions as far as I can tell to make and test proper game mechanics for game play.

The whole project then is very fragile because it is destroyed by spoilers. If I sit here and pontificate about the implications of all the details presented so far I can probably work out whatever story it is that they have written and allegedly storyboarded; worse if someone hacked them and leaked their storyboard and spoiled the whole thing. Which would force them either to redo portions of their storyboard to throw off the trail or for them to simply continue as they are with diminishing surprise as time goes by. As more details become unveiled, the player base can work out the endings or ending singular. It's all in all a bad way to develop a living project with crowd funding and crowdsourcing.

If the dev is canny then they will take the mass wild guessing and use that to fill in the gaps or even radically alter their storyboard and make a better product by crowdfunding design and writing work.

My overall criticism is that for interactive fiction it is not interactive whether in the game or in the metagame between the dev and the community.
 
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Content_Consumer

Active Member
Dec 24, 2019
987
3,395
Overwhored, Harem Collector, VILLAGE of NIGHTMARES (queer content but top notch corruption), the Company, Lab Rats 2 (not great, but at least it has more freedom of choice how you use mind control and who you use it on and what kinds of mind control you use), Ravager, Deviant Discoveries is better in the BDSM department by a lot but could use vast improvements to the actual mind control mechanics, Wife Trainer, Book of Lust, Unholy Arts, Spiral Clicker, Whoremaker, and Anomoly Vault (I think).
I'd say 'Take Over' does it better too.
In that one the MC starts out 'powerless' [as far as power structures go] but gradually works his way into higher positions of power/control and has fairly broad options about what to do with the people he ends up controlling and how he treats them.
But the player, as the MC, is never forced into submission as it is here.

"College Daze" and also "A Spell For All" would be on that list for me too.

I'd also like to say to the dev that all the discussion here is because people can see potential in the story but are concerned that the potential is being squandered with poor writing/story choices, such as having the MC raped with no way either out of that situation or no way to retaliate and having the MC just go on afterwards as if nothing happened.

If people just didn't like anything about the VN then they wouldn't bother to post here. I certainly don't bother keeping an eye on forums for VNs I have no interest in playing ever.
 
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DA22

Devoted Member
Jan 10, 2018
8,056
16,621
Regarding all the criticism, I'm honestly curious what game with Mind Control as main theme would be considered good. I'm mostly referring to DaClown's points, since they seems to be rated best among critics. If there are games that are far superior to this one, I'd like to check them as well.

Regarding my enjoyment of product, I'm enjoying ride so far. I don't mind MC. Maybe I'm starved for characters with any personality, so his wimpiness is breath of fresh air. From the start I imagined him not to be sharpest tool in the shed, so him going into limo with first big-boobed chauffer he meets fits my head-canon.

Regarding flashbacks I was not too interested in first, but second one was honestly intriguing. I'm curious about presented world and powers that be.

Apart from that I do agree that creators concentrated mostly on presentation, because this update is woefully lacking in plot development. I do not know process, but I would expect such length in monthly release not quarterly.
Well Dreams of Desires was pretty popular at its time, even if it is more magic as mind control as such, but the basic premise is same in that game, just the mind control is done by magic instead.
 

Content_Consumer

Active Member
Dec 24, 2019
987
3,395
Well Dreams of Desires was pretty popular at its time, even if it is more magic as mind control as such, but the basic premise is same in that game, just the mind control is done by magic instead.

Its some kind of magic in this VN too though, right?
I don't think its chemical or psychological, right?
 

DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
275
I'd say 'Take Over' does it better too.
In that one the MC starts out 'powerless' [as far as power structures go] but gradually works his way into higher positions of power/control and has fairly broad options about what to do with the people he ends up controlling and how he treats them.
But the player, as the MC, is never forced into submission as it is here.
I haven't played that one in probably close to a year. As I recall it failed my 15 minute test, and I don't think I ever reached the mind control part of things.

I'd also like to say to the dev that all the discussion here is because people can see potential in the story but are concerned that the potential is being squandered with poor writing/story choices, such as having the MC raped with no way either out of that situation or no way to retaliate and having the MC just go on afterwards as if nothing happened.
While I don't know how much faith I would put into the dev here for what people think they're going to get and what they think they're getting from this; I came here incensed because of what the devs promise the players vs what is actually delivered.

I play mind control games and read mind control stories both about being the mind controller and being the mind controlled. I'm willing to take a look at really fucked up things and try out villian simulators. I'm willing to try out minion simulators. I'm specifically pissed off because there's a bunch of shit that the dev didn't bother advertising that I might have been far more receptive to if it wasn't a rude and totally unavoidable surprise.

I'm also pissed off because this is a concept that I see repeatedly attempted and always half-assed. I want to see and play a good version of the apparent concept here. But for some reason the devs of this specific genre are always like "you're a nerdy/wannabe-jock/bullied-unpopular-dude-that-thinks-that-women-are-bitches-and-should-serve-him-why-do-people-hate-him-so?"

There's this game about a whiney MC maledom character I think called Superpowered. You play Billy, and Billy is a putz. You can get mind-control as a power, and you can use it, and all it does really is turn you into a creepy little ineffectual skeevy perv.

This tendency in the genre to center That Dude as the protagonist then humiliate them makes for a scenario that is about as sexy as some random used condom.

Maybe that main character choice would be forgivable if the fucking mechanics for mind control or its depiction/representation was any fucking good or if the writers were actually as smart as they tend to seem to think they are. To write a mastermind character and scenario that is enjoyably playable, you have to be smarter than the mastermind you're writing and all their antagonists and the obstacles they'll face. Otherwise performance and delivery will fall flat everytime. In most cases, the dev is not at all more cunning than the people playing their game, so it just all comes off as incredibly incompetent and insecure.

In this case, they chose the hardest premise to approach. That mind control is not only possible; it isn't unique in the history of human kind; it is inheritable; there exists somewhere between dozens and millions of such mind controllers; they have a whole fucking society that goes back thousands of years and takes full advantage of the inheritance of wealth across generations. There's zero breathing room for either the player character or the writer. All the arguments about how the MC is going to become powerful eventually and its a slow burn ignore the glaring obvious. Every second the player is training their ability is a second that someone who controls people like the limo driver and some unknown army is practicing their powers. Player character can't catch up without some kind of deus ex machina or similar bad writing device IE plot wedgie.

Choosing the mind controller secret society premise together with the player playing a mastermind means you have to be smarter than a whole society of mind controllers playing the long game across generations for thousands of years in order to sell the story plausibly with minimal catastrophes.

Most obvious routes that are available are the MC is actually the prince of mind controller land, and the son of the One. Best case scenario, the Limo Driver is a nod to a ; she is in fact the One and training the player character personally. MC is the Chosen One. The "Ooo WHAT A TWIST!" options are the game is properly labelled. There is mind control and maledom and humiliation. The player character is the one clearly being humiliated and dominated; the limo driver is the sextoy being used by her maledom master to mindfuck you. The pact you get to make by submitting to the maledom of the secret society is you get to abuse the women and eventually lash out at them for the humiliation they subject you to. Again, see the notes I made about the probable case being that all the women are in fact mind controlled and are shapping you and always have been to be what you are: a rabid misogynist.

The only scenario that makes sense to me that maybe doesn't result in total bloody warfare between the player character and the secret society eventually is that the secret society is led by, controlled by, and used for your parents or parent. In which case the princeling could lashout at the secret society, but the profoundly fucked up and abusive parenting style of your biological parents is to fuck you up with the Limo Driver till you're nice and compliant or you can you know mindfuck her and stand up against them. Then we get to have the touching scene where you meet your parents, and they're so proud of you because you've graduated to being a full fledged monster and fucked up creep just like them. Even then the premise of the story ends up being that the player is in an arms race with their parents and the women are little more than expendible human weapons in that (cold) war and family feud.

Physical modeling of characters is considerably easier than psychological modelling or sociological/economic modelling.
 

DA22

Devoted Member
Jan 10, 2018
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Its some kind of magic in this VN too though, right?
I don't think its chemical or psychological, right?
Well it is hereditary but exact mechanics of mind control have not been explained, so it might as well be magic especially with resistance there.

I strongly doubt Brigitte is resistant though if she is the slave of another master. It might be that being the slave of one gives some resistance to the slave though from meddling by other mind controllers especially if their master is the stronger one and that is part of the background of those ladies that hunt down controllers that went out of line.

Else those immune women would be the ones ruling and using the society in the end for their purposes.(Well that would fit with a femdom angle: P)

Concerning MC, yeah I think dev took that scene a bit to far, would have been better to have MC stumble into his own first big scene, unless you give everyone insane resistance or make MC dumb as mud it does not make sense to go too slow in MC initiating sex. Now a Brigitte punishing him like she did for going too fast against her "advice" could make some sense even if it would be still borderline rape. As is though she is completely dominating Mc in her actions regarding him and all MC can do is say thank you.

Her pissing of royally someone that may well become way more powerful as her over time is at best not smart for her or her master. Why make an enemy, where you can make friends and she does act overly abrasive, unless that is on purpose for whatever reason to be disclosed. Better just killing him off then to stop a potential rival from rising, unless they need him and then she would not be allowed to kill MC anyway.
 
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Jan 16, 2020
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189
I agree with DaClown than the game is not really choice based and the player is indeed forced to follow the only one path available.
The only real non-choice than i was able to have where
- not clinking on Victoria watching the TV will rooming the house for the first time
- not clinking on the panties in the mother figure room
- a few choice wille thinkinking about evrything after the "Brigit fuck you" scene
- (maybe also the choice of 2 of the models at the end but i played this choice only once)

That said, i have find the game entertaining because of this good points :
- the models and renders are good (except the mother figure).
- i like the ideas of collecting stones (witch allow the dev to add mini stories from the past inside the game)
- the Mind Society, the Old One, the Sisters and Brigit character may give us a good plot in the future (but maybe not...)

There may be something out here based on the world building and the game may become good,
but for now it's still only a "Clic & Fap ®" game (but a nice one if your are looking for this genre)
 
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DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
275
I strongly doubt Brigitte is resistant though if she is the slave of another master. It might be that being the slave of one gives some resistance to the slave though from meddling by other mind controllers especially if their master is the stronger one and that is part of the background of those ladies that hunt down controllers that went out of line.
Pretty standard trope in the genre that mind controllers can set traps and defenses in their subjects. Much explored in .

Even if you give one command you can't anticipate in general what layered conditioning might exist in the mind of a person. Maybe they have a command to fucking kill anyone who uses mind control on them that is not their master.

The way she acts and the premises stipulated make it pretty clear that she's provoking the MC deliberately. She's pretty clearly a test and something of a practice dummy sent along. She of course serves other purposes like gathering intel about the MC's reaction to becoming a mind controller and being introduced to the secret society.

Likely reason for her antagonism and attitude towards the MC? She's been ordered to do it. Or the orders she's been given have enough leeway in their interpretation that she can enjoy the freedom to fuck with a mind controller without fear of too terrible of repercussions.

Chances are that someone who has been conditioned long enough by mind controllers would likely have all kinds of kinks about being mind controlled. Whether from the beginning or forced into them over time due to training and exposure. Provoking the MC might seem to her the best strategy to get the MC to fuck with her mind as fast as possible. (Though that begs the question of why the MC doesn't have the option to even try)

Well it is hereditary but exact mechanics of mind control have not been explained, so it might as well be magic especially with resistance there.
Indications appear to me to be psionic in nature. We have standard conventions of language being used. Crystals to store memories and transmit them from psionic to psionic is a pretty common trope. MC gets headaches from pushing too hard which indicates neurological involvement in the exercise of the power. Genetic basis indicates that the power is technologically tied and theoretically reproducible artificially.

In a sci-fi story that observes the theory of natural selection, it has to contend with the fact that if a hereditary property confers a 1% advantage in reproduction and survival then within about 100 generations (around 4000 to 5000 years for human beings) the hereditary property would be in literally every member of the society that it can be in. The more the advantage it confers the faster it dominates the entire gene pool.

This immediately implies that some kind of resistance would develop among some members of the society. Alternative is extinction. If the 1% advantage of the dominant gene is counteracted by a 1% advantage in some configuration of hereditary patterns then dominance of that gene throughout the population would be curtailed.

Important to note that we should also expect that there are psionic animals with genetic traits similar to what the MC has. Whether the trait is magical or not.

unless they need him
The only reason that the MC wouldn't be squished like a bug from the start is that something about the MC is valuable to the secret society.

Pretty simple breakdown of likely reasons.
1) Low reproduction or survival rates of mind controlling offspring--this is actually a predictable likelihood as "alphamales" would have incentive and power to kill off potential rivals.
1a) Breeding stock for more desirable membership to their fucked up circle jerk.
2) The existence of a hunter faction or secret society that has psionic resistance to the mind control abilities and reason to try to drive the mind controllers to extinction. Bet you that they exist and that they're women because women are the real ebil, amirite?
3) Inducting the MC into their particular branch of the secret society before any other mind controller organizations can get to the MC gives that secret society or faction of the secret society power and privilege that would be likely denied to rival factions or organizations.

 
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Jan 16, 2020
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DaClown the secret society could also be figting the Old One since long ago and they need trained members. So the first rule is here mainly to avoid members to die to early. (this could also explain the stones. The stones are a way to train the member but also to let them know about the danger to goo too unprepared against the Old One)
 

DaClown

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Sep 12, 2020
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DaClown the secret society could also be figting the Old One since long ago and they need trained members. So the first rule is here mainly to avoid members to die to early. (this could also explain the stones. The stones are a way to train the member but also to let them know about the danger to goo too unprepared against the Old One)
Yeah which pretty much implies the obvious. There isn't one single secret society of mind controllers but a whole transnational network of colluding and conspiring secret societies of mind controllers locked in lethal arms races against each other for millennia. And you're the newest pawn. How lucky for you!

This is .
 

DA22

Devoted Member
Jan 10, 2018
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Yeah which pretty much implies the obvious. There isn't one single secret society of mind controllers but a whole transnational network of colluding and conspiring secret societies of mind controllers locked in lethal arms races against each other for millennia. And you're the newest pawn. How lucky for you!

This is .
Well if that is the reason they do not destroy you immediately, yes you are. :p

Just it also would mean a lot of trouble is ahead and the society that is recruiting you is doing a pretty bad job, trying to rule through fear instead of gaining your loyalty by making you happy and providing Mc with what he missed all his life: a place to belong and feel he is cared about.

Instead they treat him same as everyone else does or in fact through Brigitte even worse, which will either turn MC in a monster or even more of a monster (when grows in his power as he will unless you stop him and then he would be useless so you better kill him) and a monster has no loyalty, just hunger and self interest/preservation or leaves him easy to exploit by someone else that will fill his voids/needs for him.

My suspicion is that for some reason the amount of mind controllers at any given time is reasonably low and might number in the few thousands worldwide and not much more, whether due to enforced limits on breeding or physical reasons or something similar to those two reasons.
 
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memonto_mori

Member
Aug 19, 2020
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Well if that is the reason they do not destroy you immediately, yes you are. :p

Just it also would mean a lot of trouble is ahead and the society that is recruiting you is doing a pretty bad job, trying to rule through fear instead of gaining your loyalty by making you happy and providing Mc with what he missed all his life: a place to belong and feel he is cared about.

Instead they treat him same as everyone else does or in fact through Brigitte even worse, which will either turn MC in a monster or even more of a monster (when grows in his power as he will unless you stop him and then he would be useless so you better kill him) and a monster has no loyalty, just hunger and self interest/preservation or leaves him easy to exploit by someone else that will fill his voids/needs for him.

My suspicion is that for some reason the amount of mind controllers at any given time is reasonably low and might number in the few thousands worldwide and not much more, whether due to enforced limits on breeding or physical reasons or something similar to those two reasons.
the game has potential but wastes it with nonsense like femdom, the character is constantly pushed, kidnapped and raped, comedy officially!!
 

memonto_mori

Member
Aug 19, 2020
319
295
I agree with DaClown than the game is not really choice based and the player is indeed forced to follow the only one path available.
The only real non-choice than i was able to have where
- not clinking on Victoria watching the TV will rooming the house for the first time
- not clinking on the panties in the mother figure room
- a few choice wille thinkinking about evrything after the "Brigit fuck you" scene
- (maybe also the choice of 2 of the models at the end but i played this choice only once)

That said, i have find the game entertaining because of this good points :
- the models and renders are good (except the mother figure).
- i like the ideas of collecting stones (witch allow the dev to add mini stories from the past inside the game)
- the Mind Society, the Old One, the Sisters and Brigit character may give us a good plot in the future (but maybe not...)

There may be something out here based on the world building and the game may become good,
but for now it's still only a "Clic & Fap ®" game (but a nice one if your are looking for this genre)
The game does not have a good side like Heran right now, the game has great potential, but the person who makes it does not even think to use it, he does not even offer the right to choose in the game, we are forced to the route he gave, the character is extremely weak, the character is extremely weak, he is kidnapped and raped. My opinion about the stones could be better if the old users were the power transfer of the experience....
 
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saint751

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Dec 25, 2017
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the game has potential but wastes it with nonsense like femdom, the character is constantly pushed, kidnapped and raped, comedy officially!!
Eh there's like what 1-1,5 hours worth of content so far? It's not like "Seeds of Chaos" where this shit has been going on for 90% of the game. I agree with the people that say you gotta start off low. Plus the character that does the femdom on him is in a position where she can lord her power over him, but that's clearly not the endgame. The suspense comes from seeing where this goes. Plus, that must have been the most vanilla ass bondage scene I've seen in a while. She gave him a titjob and a blowjob while he was tied up. Wow, wonder what she got out of that. Long story short: I think you're exaggerating.
 
4.40 star(s) 128 Votes