VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

From this conversation, I get the impression that Kaija's behavior changes depending on your points in the early game? If you kiss her in the morning, she breaks orders and comes to you, if you don't, she gets ordered to save you?
If that's the case, that's even more damning. It would mean that her love is conditional.

Not exactly, late game there are some significant changes but early game there is only one, which is one could argue she was saving her own skin. After all it was her duty to protect MC while he got attacked by mercenaries.

Did you tell any of the Presidents of the U S of A to quit their job?
Their job where they authorised and executed carpet bombings and drone assassinations all over the globe with no oversight or reason other than ”top secret proof” nobody ever saw or asked for? Any drama surrounding any and all people who lost precious family members in those strikes WOULD KILL those presidents FAmILies 1000000 TIMES OVER as the TORA -= TIt for TAT demands, DEAR GAMER? Did you? Of course not!

You go tell Putin to QUIT HIS WARMONGER JOB because for sure millions of people are angry at his family members for his actions. Are you gonna?

Oh what do we have here, Canto babe, did you try to play logical fallacy bingo? If so you are winning.

 

[ename144]

And you can see your take is not entirely correct by choosing intimate options. She was absolutely okay to fuck the shit out MC, even she initiated and had no reason to worry that the intimacy will deepen anything towards MC.

Or you just got her horny enough that she did something foolish in the heat of the moment.

More importantly, however, we can't use anything that happens in a branch where you're intimate with her to inform her character on a different branch because who she is changes as a result of those branching choices. It's such a headache.

Also, what you are saying indicates she was going to take some actions if their relationship deepened before events unravelled itself. As she stated she neither had a plan nor any will to do so. If nothing happened and let say they got married, would you think she would say anything to MC. You can't say yes because it will contradict with what she said. At the pier, she said she had no plan whatsoever for whatever the situation they were in and always thought it's a problem for another day. Then when confronted each other she said, it was an direct order and I don't break orders. So if they were going to marry and Templars said you can marry but can't say jackshit about us then she'd keep the status quo.

Well, we do get this:

She clearly recognizes the status quo is unsustainable. That doesn't mean she *would* eventually have have confided in the MC if circumstances hadn't intervened, but it does make that more likely.

You can feel feel sympathetic to her but trying to whitewash her actions does not look good I must say. You are right on something though, there was no winning in her situation but just because she can't get what she wants that does not mean she had any right to deceive MC giving that to her. That's what fraudsters do and it's not human thing to do, that's just evil.
She had two choices at her hand. Either she was going to choose her cult and break up with MC then tell the cult leaders find someone to protect MC, which btw she was terrible at or choose MC and quit her cult or force them to let her tell about them or tell it to MC without asking permission and hope MC would forgive her. Just because she can't get both, does not make deceiving one side, btw she choose to deceive MC not Templars, okay or human thing to do.

Believe me, I'm not trying to whitewash her actions. She made questionable choices, and to whatever extent her relationship with the MC was faked (it varies by path) she absolutely wronged him. It may not be an unforgivable sin, but it's up to us if she merits forgiveness.

If it seems like I'm taking her side, it's only because I think people are rushing to judge her (and her especially employers) well ahead of us learning the actual facts. It's easy to dismiss the Templars as a cult when all they do is bicker and act petty, but what if they're not? What if they really are a shield to the innocent? If children will suddenly go missing in the night or dark spirits will influence the unwary if the Templars were exposed and expunged, is it still so easy to dismiss her concern for their secrets? If Kaija's fellow Templars are going to be killed in the line of duty because she isn't there to guard their back, should we expect her to give them the bird so she can hook up with the MC? I don't think so.

Kaija's actions have a context to them and we only know the broadest of strokes. Given that, I don't think it's unreasonable to show sympathy to her while we try to get our bearings on how this new world actually works.

If she wasn't part of the Templars she'd have been down the road probably and not in another dimension...therefore wouldn't need her pocket rocket...

Jus' sayin'...

Saying nonsense, maybe. Without the Templars to pay the bills, Kaija would have to work like everyone else. If the cops didn't make it in time to help the MC, why do you think Kaija could? Hanging around near the MC all the time (to say nothing of doing so while armed and equipped) is one of the benefits she gets by toeing the line for the Templars.

 

[Maviarab]

They're a hidden society that seems to specialize in organizational paralysis. It's unclear they could dominate the local coffee shop

It's easy to dismiss the Templars as a cult when all they do is bicker and act petty, but what if they're not? What if they really are a shield to the innocent? If children will suddenly go missing in the night or dark spirits will influence the unwary if the Templars were exposed and expunged,

Make your mind up...

Saying nonsense, maybe. Without the Templars to pay the bills, Kaija would have to work like everyone else. If the cops didn't make it in time to help the MC, why do you think Kaija could? Hanging around near the MC all the time (to say nothing of doing so while armed and equipped) is one of the benefits she gets by toeing the line for the Templars.

She would still have access to weapons...her training. Again, she isn't incapable...as for your feeble attempt at a counter...so she has to work. Right..ok? Better than being in a different dimension entirely. Not much different really huh?

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Or you just got her horny enough that she did something foolish in the heat of the moment.

More importantly, however, we can't use anything that happens in a branch where you're intimate with her to inform her character on a different branch because who she is changes as a result of those branching choices. It's such a headache.

By doing what? Taking shower?

Well, we do get this:

She clearly recognizes the status quo is unsustainable. That doesn't mean she *would* eventually have have confided in the MC if circumstances hadn't intervened, but it does make that more likely.

I am aware of this, probably even post it in here related to something else but she said what she said and she did what she did. Being aware of it does not change a thing about it.

Believe me, I'm not trying to whitewash her actions. She made questionable choices, and to whatever extent her relationship with the MC was faked (it varies by path) she absolutely wronged him. It may not be an unforgivable sin, but it's up to us if she merits forgiveness.

Then we are on the same page. She did wrong, it's unforgivable for me.
Btw, did you mean it may be an unforgivable sin because sentence does not make much sense otherwise.
Also, it does not vary by paths. She faked the relationship in all paths, what varies how much it was fake.

If it seems like I'm taking her side, it's only because I think people are rushing to judge her (and her especially employers) well ahead of us learning the actual facts. It's easy to dismiss the Templars as a cult when all they do is bicker and act petty, but what if they're not? What if they really are a shield to the innocent? If children will suddenly go missing in the night or dark spirits will influence the unwary if the Templars were exposed and expunged, is it still so easy to dismiss her concern for their secrets? If Kaija's fellow Templars are going to be killed in the line of duty because she isn't there to guard their back, should we expect her to give them the bird so she can hook up with the MC? I don't think so.

Whatever she is doing or was doing completely unrelated what they did to MC. If the world is going to havoc, I am doubtful btw, after all the world was okay before she became a Templar and will be okay after her. That is just a very good way to recruit for shady organisations, make them feel important. Anyway, if the world is going to havoc without her and also telling about it is not possible then she just should have choose the Templars and end things with MC. If you have any regard for someone let alone love them, you simply don't do what she did. So lying to MC is entirely selfish for her.

Kaija's actions have a context to them and we only know the broadest of strokes. Given that, I don't think it's unreasonable to show sympathy to her while we try to get our bearings on how this new world actually works.

Yeah no, the context, underlying reasons, her own insecurities etc. none of them can or will make what she did acceptable. It can make worse, so much worse like her evil bitch path but it will never be good enough to make it right. I'd be repeating myself here but if her being a cult devotee can't be changed, she should have find a way to explain to MC. If that is also was not possible, then she should have just break up.

 

[ename144]

Make your mind up...

They aren't incompatible. An organization that specializes in a narrow field (in this case, fighting the supernatural) to the point they can't do anything else strikes me as truth in television.

She would still have access to weapons...her training. Again, she isn't incapable...as for your feeble attempt at a counter...so she has to work. Right..ok? Better than being in a different dimension entirely. Not much different really huh?

Yet strangely she wasn't in a different dimension when the moment came, was she? The MC might have thought she was on long 'business' trips far away, but I don't think that was really the case. I suspect she was relatively near at hand most of the time (Neverwhere is a very handy shortcut), just doing things she couldn't tell him about.

 

[Maviarab]

I am aware of this, probably even post it in here related to something else but she said what she said and she did what she did. Being aware of it does not change a thing about it.

Also, it does not vary by paths. She faked the relationship in all paths, what varies how much it was fake.

If you have any regard for someone let alone love them, you simply don't do what she did. So lying to MC is entirely selfish for her.

she should have find a way to explain to MC. If that is also was not possible, then she should have just break up.

Words are cheap as they say, internal thoughts even cheaper. Actions matter, and she has shown us, in detail..on all paths, what her actions are.

Yet strangely she wasn't in a different dimension when the moment came, was she? The MC might have thought she was on long 'business' trips far away, but I don't think that was really the case. I suspect she was relatively near at hand most of the time (Neverwhere is a very handy shortcut), just doing things she couldn't tell him about.

You're just reaching now...

 

[Joshy92]

I see everyone is still talking bad about my honey buns.
Guys you are being very mean Kaija is my soulmate, my one true love.
We should all give her a second chance.

 

[Maviarab]

I see everyone is still talking bad about my honey buns.
Guys you are being very mean Kaija is my soulmate, my one true love.
We should all give her a second chance.

 

[Canto Forte]

Saved MC, stood by MC every time, supported MC through his difficult times,
sacrificed everything to ensure she got to be close and personal and even strike up
a FWB relationship with MC - MC sure never seemed to want more, never did more.

she has shown us, in detail..on all paths, what her actions are

Girls fighting to be with the guy they like is such a rare find - compared to what shit is going on in intertwined where the MC best friend just dumps him on his birthday and scars him for life .. this is a breeze.

 

[Joshy92]

View attachment 3383118

But bro no one understands the love Kaija and I have for each other.
It's special.

 

[Maviarab]

But bro no one understands the love Kaija and I have for each other.
It's special.

Oh I understand your love for her...and every other girl hehehe

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I see everyone is still talking bad about my honey buns.
Guys you are being very mean Kaija is my soulmate, my one true love.
We should all give her a second chance.

I am willing to give her a second chance as long as she'll take it in hell where she belongs.
Also you are fucking lying to us Joshy, she can't be your soulmate after all she does not have any soul.

 

[Maviarab]

But bro no one understands the love Kaija and I have for each other.
It's special.

Also...I do understand Joshy...

As know you don't follow this thread

 

[Raziel_8]

Saved MC

Sure, she did her job for once, and then the MC saved her ass as she managed to lose a swordfight in which her opponent only had a knife...

stood by MC every time

Please define every time...as for the most time she shines through absence.

supported MC through his difficult times

She is half the reason for his difficult time! And supported ? The sister did, Fiona and Elea did to a lesser degree, she didn't do anything.

sacrificed everything to ensure she got to be close and personal and even strike up
a FWB relationship with MC - MC sure never seemed to want more, never did more.

Sacrificed what ? She did it because it was easier for her to do her job...
Uhm, FWB relationship ? They were a couple and lived together, short of a marriage proposal what do you expect ?

Girls fighting to be with the guy they like is such a rare find

When did that happen ?

 

[Maviarab]

*sighs*..>Canto being Canto I see....Some things never change.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

*sighs*..>Canto being Canto I see....Some things never change.

Well, he can still bait so why not?

 

[nitkonikic]

It's easy to dismiss the Templars as a cult when all they do is bicker and act petty, but what if they're not? What if they really are a shield to the innocent?
Kaija's actions have a context to them and we only know the broadest of strokes. Given that, I don't think it's unreasonable to show sympathy to her while we try to get our bearings on how this new world actually works.

See that's the thing, I don't think Templars are a cult. They are proper organization, with capable leadership and all. Problem being, they are also one with really messed up morals.
Remember that their literal orders to Kaija were to seduce MC to be close to him. That was an order at first!

Small EDIT here: Also a reason why I don't trust that bitch MC is doing sword training with. Fuck off lady. You are part of the problem, stop acting like good cop.

As for Kaija, because I don't consider Templars a cult is why I find her actions even more unforgiving.
She makes her own decisions, and she decided, not under orders, to seduce MC and let him live a life of lie.

In her own words (not love path), everything except initial friendship was a lie.
That's just INSANE when you think about it.
She willingly decided to lie to, seduce and spy on a person she calls friend.
You know that saying: "With friends like these, who needs enemies.". Kaija is very personification of that expression.

If children will suddenly go missing in the night or dark spirits will influence the unwary if the Templars were exposed and expunged, is it still so easy to dismiss her concern for their secrets? If Kaija's fellow Templars are going to be killed in the line of duty because she isn't there to guard their back, should we expect her to give them the bird so she can hook up with the MC? I don't think so.

It would make their continued existence better, yes, but it would be a necessary evil, not something MC should welcome.

And as much as I hate Kaija, MCs parents...dear lord, if something like that happened in my life they would be dead to me after all the shit is gone and they're safe. Literally gone from existence.
They valued their job over their child, to the point of ruining his life so they can sleep better at night, for his own good or whatever.
Lying pieces of shite, both of them.

 

[Raziel_8]

Well, he can still bait so why not?

Nah, that's just normal Canto also sometimes you get...interesting responses.

 

[xapican]

Ceolag ! do you enjoy your popcorn right ?
Edit: by the way they are a order, even after they were dissolved, they are a Brotherhood like the Free Masons, Rosicruziamums, Opus Dei. or the Assesins in former times.

 

[nitkonikic]

Hey, Kaija discussions all day long or not, it's still nice to see 130 pages of discussions for VN with 4 releases so far.
Might attract some people to see what all the fuss is about.

And as long as they don't see Joshy's comments, maybe they'll even stay.