VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[Ciaran8023]

Well, that was a lot of elves in the update.
Also hot damn I despise his parents, burning bridges on all of my saves, fuck that.

On another note, Finn annoyed me a fair bit and I am not entirely convinced that she's dead. Third party most likely having connections and influencing both elves and humans, Finn being literally nothing but vitriolic rage for humans but then all of the sudden changes her mind within a day while belonging to a race that lives for thousands of years (and also holds grudges for thousands of years) and then conveniently drops dead at a crucial timing. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she was in on it and faked her death.

 

[xapican]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she was in on it and faked her death.

Interesting point of view, but what motive should she have ? just rebelling against, her Mother, and MAB ? who want to avoid the conflict, because that would also end the Alfar ?

 

[Dessolos]

Well, that was a lot of elves in the update.
Also hot damn I despise his parents, burning bridges on all of my saves, fuck that.

On another note, Finn annoyed me a fair bit and I am not entirely convinced that she's dead. Third party most likely having connections and influencing both elves and humans, Finn being literally nothing but vitriolic rage for humans but then all of the sudden changes her mind within a day while belonging to a race that lives for thousands of years (and also holds grudges for thousands of years) and then conveniently drops dead at a crucial timing. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she was in on it and faked her death.

im pretty sure you can see part of her face when she is being burnt on the boat even if you cant I find it high unlikely she faked her own death considering Medb was sad over it too and she would have to be in on it as well. That and well someone mentioned how she is Medbs daughter which I missed my first time.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Interesting point of view, but what motive should she have ? just rebelling against, her Mother, and MAB ? who want to avoid the conflict, because that would also end the Alfar ?

The motive is the same that fueled any conflict in history, mainly a tribalistic viewpoint that's nigh-impossible to get rid of and deeply rooted within hatred and fear. Also to elaborate, I'm not saying that she's a part of that third party, I am saying that the third party would in that case have manipulated her to do what they want.
"If we can start a conflict between the elves and the humans, it will make it easier for us to get rid of the templars, those who killed your kin and tied to take your land, together. Your kin can live freely if we do" or something similar. It's something that happens a lot both in real life and in fictional stories.
Generally, when you're filled with hatred towards something, you aren't exactly prone to rational thought and you tend to be a lot more susceptible to nefarious suggestions.

EDIT: Also, the game drops the whole "DURENDAL SHOULD ONLY BE WIELDED TO MAINTAIN BALANCE" a LOT in this chapter which is why I think hatred might be an underlying driving factor and why I started to question Finn in the first place.

im pretty sure you can see part of her face when she is being burnt on the boat even if you cant I find it high unlikely she faked her own death considering Medb was sad over it too and she would have to be in on it as well. That and well someone mentioned how she is Medbs daughter which I missed my first time.

Yeah we do see a part of her face.. but we're also in a setting with a LOT of magic and mythology, demons that barely anyone seem to believe exists and also dark elves that have yet to show up. It's likely very difficult to fake, but I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility since this third party might have beings with unfamiliar magic entirely.
This is based in the common fantasy trope where you tend to have different ways of magic for different races, might not pan out to be like that in this game, but it also wouldn't surprise me if it did.

And again, if you're fueled by hatred, you aren't exactly prone to rational thought. Regardless of Medb's connection to her, there's no guarantee that she would have told her anything about a plan that might jeopardize Medb more than usual had she known about it, moreover with Medb apparently being against a conflict.

Again, this is all just conjecture, but it feels VERY unlikely for the dev to introduce a character like this only to kill her offscreen without any red strings attached to that.

 

[xapican]

Ciaran8023 ; Well, it is a possibility not gonna lie, not exactly aligning with my conjecture, but a possible scenario, the aspect of Finn being not trustworthy didn't come to my mind

 

[Maviarab]

Ciaran8023 ; Well, it is a possibility not gonna lie, not exactly aligning with my conjecture, but a possible scenario, the aspect of Finn being not trustworthy didn't come to my mind

There's a reason he on my list. Because he an idiot.

Ceo said...she dead...done...cooked her goose...the end....no more...finito....she dead dead...deader that dudder....dudder than dud.

FFS people...

 

[Ciaran8023]

Ciaran8023 ; Well, it is a possibility not gonna lie, not exactly aligning with my conjecture, but a possible scenario, the aspect of Finn being not trustworthy didn't come to my mind

I'm honestly a bit surprised that there weren't more people thinking that she might be untrustworthy.
I mean generally speaking, literally no sides of this conflict can be trusted thus far and the only characters that seem to be able to be trusted are the LI's not involved in it (i.e Elena.. Elea? Whatever her name was, the blonde and whatever the names of the other unrelated LI's are) and the sister, assuming that everything is exactly how it seems just seems a bit odd to me.

EDIT- though I will say, I'd just be happy if she is entirely dead, because there's no way to trust someone who goes from literal generational hatred to "nah you cool" in a single day. No one does that without without being mentally unstable or with an ulterior motive, especially not within a species that holds grudges for thousands of years.

 

[alanrock]

Oh my God, they've killed Finnabair!

 

[Meiri]

I'm honestly a bit surprised that there weren't more people thinking that she might be untrustworthy.
I mean generally speaking, literally no sides of this conflict can be trusted thus far and the only characters that seem to be able to be trusted are the LI's not involved in it (i.e Elena.. Elea? Whatever her name was, the blonde and whatever the names of the other unrelated LI's are) and the sister, assuming that everything is exactly how it seems just seems a bit odd to me.

EDIT- though I will say, I'd just be happy if she is entirely dead, because there's no way to trust someone who goes from literal generational hatred to "nah you cool" in a single day. No one does that without without being mentally unstable or with an ulterior motive, especially not within a species that holds grudges for thousands of years.

Untrustworthy Finn?? Maybe at the beginning but definitely not by the end. The elves side has been pretty open, sure they mostly don't like humans but at least you can see where that's coming from.

It's mostly the Templar side that is hard to trust here, every one of them seems to have their own agenda and they don't mind lying or hiding information, sure there's probably going to be traitors on both sides but I think templars are far more dangerous.

 

[motseer]

There's a reason on my list. Because he an idiot.

Ceo said...she dead...done...cooked her goose...the end....no more...finito....she dead dead...deader that dudder....dudder than dud.

FFS people...she dead Jim.

You are absolutely correct. I've never heard anything more ludicrous in my life! What would be the point? Half the Elven city attending a fake funeral as a conspiracy to fool one insignificant human of no standing whatsoever? The point of that is to send him back to the Templars to tell them an Elven girl they've never heard of is dead? Oh, she was Medb's daughter and now Medb is really pissed... Wait... Medb was already threatening the Templars and demanding they disband. Again, what's the point?

 

[Dessolos]

I'm honestly a bit surprised that there weren't more people thinking that she might be untrustworthy.
I mean generally speaking, literally no sides of this conflict can be trusted thus far and the only characters that seem to be able to be trusted are the LI's not involved in it (i.e Elena.. Elea? Whatever her name was, the blonde and whatever the names of the other unrelated LI's are) and the sister, assuming that everything is exactly how it seems just seems a bit odd to me.

Personally I thought Fin was pretty trustworthy after she started to spend some time with the MC. Personally I find Elea and Fiona just as trustworthy. Only ones I question about how trustworthy they are is Kari ( the Valkyrie) and Kaija depending on her path. I do think Kaija is trustworthy on the Love path but maybe not as much as the other characters. As I get a sense her loyalty towards the Templars vs is going to waver on the Love path once we get more updates. As I suspect they are going to order her or the MC to do somethings they disagree with entirely.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Untrustworthy Finn?? Maybe at the beginning but definitely not by the end. The elves side has been pretty open, sure they mostly don't like humans but at least you can see where that's coming from.

Well of course, but that doesn't mean that they're in any way honest. In fact, having an extreme hatred towards a group will just make them more inclined to withhold information or outright lie.

It's mostly the Templar side that is hard to trust here, every one of them seems to have their on agenda and they don't mind lying or hiding information, sure there's probably going to be traitors on both sides but I think templars are far more dangerous.

I'd absolutely say that both sides are equally bad. There is nothing to point towards the elves being in any way genuine, and I am pretty surprised that no one has any alarm bells ringing about the fact that any elf that he seems to come into contact with (including the literal king) seem to have completely dismissed generations of trauma and hatred just because one ballsy boy shows up at the doorstep and refuses to kill someone (which in fact should be the default outcome regardless because murdering someone is a terrible diplomatic move and the elves should know this).

It just doesn't make sense, hatred doesn't change in a day, or a week, or even a month when it's this deeply rooted and especially given what we know of elves, their society and how long they live.

I've never heard anything more ludicrous in my life! What would be the point? Half the Elven city attending a fake funeral as a conspiracy to fool one insignificant human of no standing whatsoever? The point of that is to send him back to the Templars to tell them an Elven girl they've never heard of is dead? Oh, she was Medb's daughter and now Medb is really pissed... Wait... Medb was already threatening the Templars and demanding they disband. Again, what's the point?

I'm going to clarify my point since you seem to be misunderstanding it, I am not talking about literally every elf on the globe having a hivemind and deep understanding of a large scale conspiracy plot to trigger a conflict.
What I specifically outlined and what the MC is getting at is that there's a third party, not elf nor human, that have connections within each faction that are manipulating them. My thesis was that Finn is either that connection or a pawn of whatever connection there is within the elves.

This also means that none of the other elves (besides potential complicits to Finn or whoever pulled the strings behind Finn) knowing anything about a faked death.

Personally I thought Fin was pretty trustworthy after she started to spend some time with the MC. Personally I find Elea and Fiona just as trustworthy. Only ones I question about how trustworthy they are is Kari ( the Valkyrie) and Kaija depending on her path. I do think Kaija is trustworthy on the Love path but maybe not as much as the other characters. As I get a sense her loyalty towards the Templars vs is going to waver on the Love path once we get more updates. As I suspect they are going to order her or the MC to do somethings they disagree with entirely.

Elea seems to be trustworthy since she isn't involved. Fiona isn't trustworthy but not for the reason of conflict, but moreso that she has a shady past that might fuck things up hard for the MC, a past that she isn't elaborating on so the MC can't take any defensive measures.

Kari doesn't seem to be trustworthy either, right now MC is a convenient pawn with some sway behind him, especially since MC tends to not trust either templars or elves, meaning that she would likely have an easier time persuading him if she feels the need to.. which she might have already done in regards to going to the elves, which makes her even shadier.

Not gonna get into Kaija, probably my most hated character in any digital or physical media.

 

[motseer]

Guys, the overall plot of this story is much simpler than you are making it out to be. The protagonist is an isolated entity in the middle of brewing troubles. There is, obviously, a third party playing upon the shortcomings of the two sides. The potential conflict is being manipulated because of the isolationist policies of the Alfar and the moronic arrogance of the Templars. MC will likely save the day but, maybe, if we are lucky, he'll stand back and watch it all burn to the ground...

I'm going to clarify my point since you seem to be misunderstanding it, I am not talking about literally every elf on the globe having a hivemind and deep understanding of a large scale conspiracy plot to trigger a conflict.
What I specifically outlined and what the MC is getting at is that there's a third party, not elf nor human, that have connections within each faction that are manipulating them. My thesis was that Finn is either that connection or a pawn of whatever connection there is within the elves.

This also means that none of the other elves (besides potential complicits to Finn or whoever pulled the strings behind Finn) knowing anything about a faked death.

I can agree with your third party theory, generally. The Finnibair fake death just doesn't hold water in my opinion. The whole fake funeral thing just doesn't make sense and seems very improbable to pull off. Jus' Sayin'

 

[Ciaran8023]

I can agree with your third party theory, generally. The Finnibair fake death just doesn't hold water in my opinion. The whole fake funeral thing just doesn't make sense and seems very improbable to pull off. Jus' Sayin'

But killing off one of the elves that have shown the most aggression and hatred towards the templars is?
As said, conflict between the elves and the templars is the point, why would you remove someone who already harbors that hatred more than most elves, who ALSO is tied to Medb in some way? That's the type of character that you influence and brainwash, because that's a voice that will carry more weight than 95% of other elves if Finn could in turn influence Medb.

Just judging cost vs effect, it doesn't make sense to kill her off either.

 

[motseer]

But killing off one of the elves that have shown the most aggression and hatred towards the templars is?
As said, conflict between the elves and the templars is the point, why would you remove someone who already harbors that hatred more than most elves, who ALSO is tied to Medb in some way? That's the type of character that you influence and brainwash, because that's a voice that will carry more weight than 95% of other elves if Finn could in turn influence Medb.

Just judging cost vs effect, it doesn't make sense to kill her off either.

You're assuming that Finnabair's death is part of a conspiracy but, you have no way to know that. It's more likely that a certain dumbass Templar killed her or had her killed and, as it turns out, plays right into the hands of your third party. That's a much easier to follow scenario. We could come up with lots of theories that are more plausible than the grand illusion fake funeral. The fact is we don't really know, yet, what happened to her; only that the Alfar are accusing the Templars. For now...

 

[Elduriel]

You're assuming that Finnabair's death is part of a conspiracy but, you have no way to know that. It's more likely that a certain dumbass Templar killed her or had her killed and, as it turns out, plays right into the hands of your third party. That's a much easier to follow scenario. We could come up with lots of theories that are more plausible than the grand illusion fake funeral. The fact is we don't really know, yet, what happened to her; only that the Alfar are accusing the Templars. For now...

I trust the process, I'm sure Ceolag will deliver on this plotline too. Speculation is fun and all, but overall pointless.

 

[Dessolos]

But killing off one of the elves that have shown the most aggression and hatred towards the templars is?
As said, conflict between the elves and the templars is the point, why would you remove someone who already harbors that hatred more than most elves, who ALSO is tied to Medb in some way? That's the type of character that you influence and brainwash, because that's a voice that will carry more weight than 95% of other elves if Finn could in turn influence Medb.

Just judging cost vs effect, it doesn't make sense to kill her off either.

I personally thought it made sense. Simply because if there really is a third party they could easily use her death to spark the start of a Templar VS Elven war. Then when it comes to Medb the death of Fin is probably going to cause her to spiral and go through a character change and growth at some point. As well probably more character deveolopment and lore deep dive id imagine. Now if it was just some random templar that killed her yeah I feel her death would have less meaning from a story point of view.

 

[Ciaran8023]

You're assuming that Finnabair's death is part of a conspiracy but, you have no way to know that. It's more likely that a certain dumbass Templar killed her or had her killed and, as it turns out, plays right into the hands of your third party. That's a much easier to follow scenario. We could come up with lots of theories that are more plausible than the grand illusion fake funeral. The fact is we don't really know, yet, what happened to her; only that the Alfar are accusing the Templars. For now...

That's true, it could be entirely random, but the timing of it is surprisingly apt and it was apparently by a templar when they have no common grounds they interact with, moreover it would have to be a high ranking templar in order to freely go to places that the templars have deemed off-limits (as the game noted, templars and elves have been zero or very low contact for a long while) at which point it seems unlikely that Linnae wouldn't have heard of it, and while she's also sketchy, she seems to not be interested in the conflict either and have gone against the templars plans before.

EDIT: It would be fucking HILARIOUS if it was Kaiju actually, I just thought about this, given her absolutely zealous loyalty to anything templar-related, she's also one of the few good enough and high ranking enough to have done it. God I hope the dev pulls the trigger on that, would be very cathartic to have her head sent flying.

Again basing things off of risk versus reward, it seems more likely that this is orchestrated somewhere within the elves as why else would someone as culturally and familially important as Finn (given that both Medb and the ice queen attended her funeral) be thrown off to the frontier or into templar territory?
She's good, but it also doesn't make much sense given how much we were told in the chapter about how important both family and young elves are due to lack of reproduction. The fact that she was also acting as basically a diplomatic contact at the time just further cements my suspicion that whatever happened had to do more with the elves than templars.

I personally thought it made sense. Simply because if there really is a third party they could easily use her death to spark the start of a Templar VS Elven war. Then when it comes to Medb the death of Fin is probably going to cause her to spiral and go through a character change and growth at some point. As well probably more character deveolopment and lore deep dive id imagine. Now if it was just some random templar that killed her yeah I feel her death would have less meaning from a story point of view.

But again, she already harbored deep hatred for humans and especially templars, keeping her and using her to influence Medb would be a FAR safer and more logical option as murdering her will basically turn Medb into a coin flip given her interactions with the MC thus far.
Medb could either go full ballistic on humans, or get suspicious about the circumstances, and given how she handled the MC and telling him to leave to avoid becoming a political hostage, she seems far more inclined towards humans right now which would work against the plot of whatever third party is involved, would it not?

Again, something there just doesn't make sense from the point of view of starting a conflict. Yes, this likely will start a conflict but there are WAY too many uncertainties for that conflict to yield good results, unless the conflict is solely a distraction for the third party to move.

 

[Dessolos]

unless the conflict is solely a distraction for the third party to move.

Kind of what I would assume they would want the war for an ulterior motive unknown to us just so they go unnoticed for something much bigger. As I do not think they would care about the outcome of the war or to control the elves but they just wanted them to fight.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Kind of what I would assume they would want the war for an ulterior motive unknown to us just so they go unnoticed for something much bigger. As I do not think they would care about the outcome of the war or to control the elves but they just wanted them to fight.

But that also begs the question as to why the third party wouldn't take the opportunity to wipe out atleast one of the sides. Clearly it's antagonistic towards both sides, and I think literally all sides involved know that the elves can't afford to fight, so this would be the best opportunity for that third party to make sure that one contender is out of the running.

Which again, means that it's difficult to make sense of the current situation, as it seems more logical to set a more deep-rooted and fueled conflict which would have been easier to do with Finn alive.

Honestly at this point I'm just hoping that the antagonist doesn't turn out to be one of those villains with a "LOL JUST SHITS AND GIGS MATE" attitude because this is an interesting conflict and the politics behind it are fairly interesting, given that we're discussing them, so I truly hope that there's some actual thought behind all of this from the devs side.